Saudis order 40 lashes for elderly woman for mingling

[t0dd]

More Islamic inhumanity from Saudi Arabia. Will the lunacy never end?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/09/saudi.arabia.lashes/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

From CNN
By Mohammed Jamjoom and Saad Abedine

A Saudi Arabian court has sentenced a 75-year-old Syrian woman to 40 lashes, four months imprisonment and deportation from the kingdom for having two unrelated men in her house, according to local media reports.

According to the Saudi daily newspaper Al-Watan, troubles for the woman, Khamisa Mohammed Sawadi, began last year when a member of the religious police entered her house in the city of Al-Chamli and found her with two unrelated men, "Fahd" and "Hadian."

Fahd told the policeman that he had the right to be there, because Sawadi had breast-fed him as a baby and was therefore considered to be a son to her in Islam, according to Al-Watan. Fahd, 24, added that his friend Hadian was escorting him as he delivered bread for the elderly woman. The policeman then arrested both men.

Saudi Arabia follows a strict interpretation of Islam called Wahhabism and punishes unrelated men and women who are caught mingling.

The Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, feared by many Saudis, is made up of several thousand religious policemen charged with duties such as enforcing dress codes, prayer times and segregation of the sexes. Under Saudi law, women face many restrictions, including a strict dress code and a ban on driving. Women also need to have a man's permission to travel.

...

[GCP]

1. And the Bushes go around holding hands with the "Princes" in charge over there

We need to stop buying their oil. :grr:

[Lex]

3. exactly right

nt

[pnutbutr]

5. Who's should we buy

until an alternative is capable of taking over?

All oil producing nations are shady, I don't think buying from one over another really makes a huge difference except where the money goes after we purchase. Would we be better to fund SA or a nation that will use our money to oppose us? I hate the human rights violations but we're kind of stuck for now unless we want to drill baby drill. :rofl:

[Fumesucker]

9. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi..

Would you count 9/11 as "opposition" to the US?

I know I would.

[pnutbutr]

11. I was talking about

government opposition, not individual or group opposition. But that still plays into giving them money for oil. Who should we be giving it to?

[TahitiNut]

17. "All oil producing nations are shady"??? OK ... so, that would include Canada, right?

:eyes:

Norway, too, I guess.

:eyes:

[cliffordu]

20. And perverts, too...Ever hear of 'Norweigan wood'??

[reggie the dog]

28. shady ass Scotland too

[KamaAina]

67. We've got oil, too

oh, right...

[cliffordu]

18. Or.....

You cagers could all drive half of what you currently drive and not import any of it.

Of course then you'd have to walk to get the big gulps....so forget that....

[QueenOfCalifornia]

39. Most of our oil

comes from Canada.

Not all that shady.

[Ikonoklast]

58. I don't know about that.

I had a crafty Canuck talk me into eating poutine, telling me just how delicious it was.

Shady bastard to the core.


:puke:

[TBF]

69. How you can find an OP like this funny is beyond me... did you wander

on to the wrong website by mistake?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

88. You smell that too?

I think you and I both know what is in their future...mmmm, pizza. :D

[jmowreader]

92. Even if we drilled baby drilled it still wouldn't be enough

We're buying oil from Saudi Arabia for the foreseeable future, because they have so much of it.

I must of course point out that we invaded Afghanistan and ran the Taliban off for acting just like the Saudis. There's a reason we haven't done this to Saudi Arabia? And the thing is, we could turn SA into the 51st state a hell of a lot easier than either Afghanistan or Iraq--Saudi doesn't have what one would describe as a quality army.

[av8rdave]

2. Religeous Police...one of the many reasons I so enjoyed my time in the Kingdom

:sarcasm:

[JerseygirlCT]

74. Spent less than an hour there, probably, in an airport

but that was scary enough.

Had my passport taken away, while some guy screamed at me in Arabic. Then they went through our carry-on luggage (we were just changing planes, not attempting to enter the kingdom). A very nice Korean guy, who'd been through the drill got our passports back and got us out of there. But who knows what could have happened?

Yeah, not a place I ever have the desire to see again.

[av8rdave]

85. I spent quite a bit of time there while I was in the military

Stayed in/flew in and out of Riyahd.

Yes, you were fortunate to get out as fast as possible.

[Turbineguy]

86. I used to go to

The Islamic Port of Jeddha.

They posted a guard with a machine gun at the foot of the ship's gangway to make sure nobody went ashore. It wasn't actually needed.

What we should think of with Saudi Arabia, is to allow their women to come here and send them our republicans.

[av8rdave]

87. That's a great idea...Republicans would LOVE it there

No separation of church and state, state sponsored misogyny, state imposed moral standards, mandatory church attendance, homosexuality illegal, sex outside of marriage illegal, no rights whatsoever for women, science and technology restricted and regulated by the church.

What's not to like if you're a Republican?

[Marrah_G]

4. I despise these cultures and their enslavement and torture of women.

[pnutbutr]

8. religious based cultures

have always had problems like this.

[av8rdave]

91. And yet that's exactly what our Republican friends and fundies want

[Kitty Herder]

62. Same here. It makes my blood boil.

Religious belief is no excuse for hurting someone, and especially for treating half of humanity worse than animals.

[readmoreoften]

6. Good thing we're liberating Iraq for what they did on 9-11!

:crazy:

[cali]

7. and that has exactly zip to do with the OP

[TBF]

66. Iraqi women and Taliban women rate intervention,

Saudi and Mexican women do not. That has everything to do with the OP. We are currently using the liberation of Afghani women to justify bombing their country to hell - so we can put that stupid pipeline in.

I'm sorry if you don't get the connection.

[Maru Kitteh]

80. It's not that hard to figure out really.

It's often referred to as irony. The real kind, not that Alanis Morissette kind.

[progressoid]

10. With friends like these...

Sure does make me feel good knowing they are on our side. :sarcasm:

Wonder it any Saudi Princes will want to hold Obama's hand?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. More Saudi inhumanity

Kindly remember that Wahhabism is to Islam what Falwell and his ilk are to Christianity. Wahhabists not only do things like this, they persecute fellow Muslims of other sects.

[Bozita]

13. Wahhabi radicals are determined to destroy a gentler, kinder Islam

Wahhabi radicals are determined to destroy a gentler, kinder Islam
William Dalrymple
The Observer, Sunday 8 March 2009
Article history


Rahman Baba, "the Nightingale of Peshawar," was an 18th-century poet and mystic, a sort of North West Frontier version of Julian of Norwich.

He withdrew from the world and promised his followers that if they also loosened their ties with the world, they could purge their souls of worries and move towards direct experience of God. Rituals and fasting were for the pious, said the saint. What was important was to understand that divinity can best be reached through the gateway of the human heart - that we all have paradise within us, if we know where to look.

For centuries, Rahman Baba's shrine at the foot of the Khyber Pass has been a place where musicians and poets have gathered, and his Sufi verses in the Pukhtun language made him the national poet of the Pathans. As a young journalist covering the Soviet-mujahideen conflict I used to visit the shrine to watch Afghan refugee musicians sing their songs to their saint by the light of the moon.

Then, about 10 years ago, a Saudi-funded Wahhabi madrasa was built at the end of the track leading to the shrine. Soon its students took it on themselves to halt what they saw as unIslamic practices. On my last visit, I talked about the situation with the shrine keeper, Tila Mohammed. He described how young Islamists now came and complained that his shrine was a centre of idolatry and superstition: "My family have been singing here for generations," said Tila. "But now these Arab madrasa students come here and create trouble.

"They tell us that what we do is wrong. They ask people who are singing to stop. Sometimes arguments break out - even fist fights. This used to be a place where people came to get peace of mind. Now when they come here they just encounter more problems, so gradually have stopped coming."

"Before the Afghan war, there was nothing like this. But then the Saudis came, with their propaganda, to stop us visiting the saints, and to stop us preaching 'ishq . Now this trouble happens more and more frequently."

more at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x431209

[get the red out]

14. We bombed the wrong two countries

We bombed the hell out of the wrong two countries. But then Bush was busy holding hands with the Saudi Prince. Oh lovey dovey Republicans and the Saudis.

[Nye Bevan]

15. A stupid and barbaric religion

It may not be politically correct to say that one religion is better than another. But I will anyway.

Islam:
Stone women to death for adultery;
Beat women who get raped;
Men get 72 virgins in the after-life for committing mass-murder against the Great Satan;
Amputate the hands of thieves;
Women cannot drive;
Official Fatwas to sentence to death any critics of the religion.
etc.

Christianity:
Love your neighbor as yourself;
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone;
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you;
Turn the other cheek;
Women *can* drive;
No Fatwas, even against that guy who made "Piss Christ".

[Aristus]

21. Your reply displays an astounding ignorance of Islam.

Islam was intended to be an instrument of liberation for women. Wahabbists pervert the Qu'ran the way Fred Phelps and his in-bred troglodytes pervert the Bible.

The death sentence does exist in Islam, but unlike in this country, if the family of the victim wishes it, the sentence may be commuted. That's an example of Islamic forgiveness.

Women could only be stoned for adultery or "rape", if four unimpeachable witnesses to the act could be produced in court. Nearly impossible, unless the woman in question was a porn star. One of the most easily corrupted directives, of course, since all courts are run by men. But it's not Qu'ranic.

The Qu'ran does not promise 72 virgins to martyrs as payment for their sacrifice. What the Qu'ran says is that the righteous man will receive rest in Paradise, in green fields with splashing fountains, and be served dates by "dark-eyed" maidens. You can interpret "dark-eyed maidens" as "virgins" if you like, but there is no promise that the righteous (no mention of martyrdom) will be allowed to have sex with them.

The Qu'ran promises that woman can own their own property, run their own households, and not be bound to the dictates of men. Usually if they are widows; but it was never intended that woman would be subject to the tyrannical subjugation of men.

I'm not even a Muslim. But I take offense at such broad-brush tarring of a faith that was intended to be progressive and liberating.

[LeftinOH]

25. Yes- as liberals we are obliged to 'see through the eyes of others'...but

-Islam's leading edge has gone off the rails, with the Saudis (mis)leading the way. With each terror attack (9/11; London; Madrid; Bali- whatever) one gets weary having to acknowledge *each time* that "Islam is a religion of peace and non-violence."

[formervolunteer]

26. While I don't think a particular cult is better than another,

When you say "Islam was intended to be an instrument of liberation for women", I just wanna reply:

"Good goin', assholes."



'Cause, you know..

[Aristus]

27. Christianity gave us:

The Crusades
The Black Death
Witch hunts & burnings
The Inquisition
The Holocaust
The Religious Right
Oral Roberts University
The PTL Club


So, no point in singling out Islam...

[formervolunteer]

29. Agreed 100%

However, without "singling out" Islam, wether you take it as a series of concepts or as a pragmatic series of events, it's pretty shitty.

So, still without singling it out, the whole pov - which you seemed to adopt- that it's a religion of peace and was meant to free women and give food the the poor and save the orphans is a big load of bs.



Just sayin'

[MisterP]

33. sorta OT, but how'd Christianity give us the Black Death?

or didya mean it as a parody of guilt by association, wherein everything that happens under a system is definitively the fault of that system?

[Aristus]

35. Okay, it didn't "give" us the Black Death, but it did prolong the infestation due

to the Church's insistence on societal filth as an outward sign of Original Sin. Celtic Wiccans used sanitary methods and natural healing to combat the plague, and the Church had them rounded up and slaughtered as opposing the will of God.

[MisterP]

64. care to cite a source? n/t

[Ikonoklast]

83. Cats were seen as witches' familiars' by the Catholic Church

in the Middle Ages, and they were routinely killed by the peasantry at the exhortation of the Church. Cats were associated with paganism by the Church because of the cults of cat worship and fertility of ancient Egypt.

It has been posited that the explosion in the rat population after the near extermination of their predators by the human population was a contributing factor to the rapid spread of the Black Plague throughout Europe.

When cats came to Europe in 900 BCE, they crossbred with native cat found in the British Isles, Felis silvestris. By the middle Ages, however, cats fell out of favor with most of Europe. The Catholic Church connected them and those who loved them with paganism, devil worship, and witchcraft. Superstitious people believed that cats (especially black cats) had diabolical powers. They were feared because of their nocturnal hunting habits, their ability to see in the dark and their "glowing" eyes.

In 1484, Pope Innocent empowered the Inquisition to burn all cats and cat lovers. As a result of the drastic drop in the cat population, the number of rodents increased. Millions of rats carrying fleas infected with bubonic plague spread the Black Death across Europe. When the persecution of cats ended, they began hunting rats again, and Europeans saw the advantage of having these natural hunters keep their towns' rodent free.

http://www.articlesbase.com/pets-articles/the-history-of-cats-609376.html

I personally believe that the Black Death was the retaliatory punishment meted out to Christian Europe by the great Egyptian Goddess Bastet for the persecution of her feline daughters.

[Maru Kitteh]

81. Uh, no.

And FYI "natural healing" wouldn't have done shit for the plague. Do you know anything about the plague at all?

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. The Black Death and the Holocaust?

Come on. Poor sanitation and increasing sea trade routes caused the Black Death. You can blame Christianity for the pogroms of Jews in the wake of the Black Death, but blaming any religion for a natural plague is pretty specious.

And fascism was responsible for the Holocaust. Yes, Hitler singled out Jews, but they were only half of the 12 million people extinguished in his camps - the others were Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents, and so forth. People who were, as a whole, singled out for their lack of suitability to the Aryan race. Nazism owes far more to Teutonic paganism and tribal identity than it does to Christianity.

[Aristus]

36. Heinrich Himmler wanted to take the Nazi Party more explicitly in the direction

of Teutonic paganism. Hitler told him to cool it for fear of losing the support of German Christians. Mussolini always promoted Fascism as an explicitly Christian movement. Nazi-ism was seen as a bastion against what was called Jewish Bolshevism, and that true "Christians" would rally to the cause.

[WildEyedLiberal]

43. I think that had more to do with the cultural dominance of "Christianity"

Of course when 90+% of your population identifies as a particular religion, you are going to have to at least keep up appearances that your movement is in accordance with their beliefs to gain and maintain power. I think by the time it was too late to do anything about it, though, the Nazis had abandoned any pretences of being "Christian." Dissenter priests and pastors (e.g. Maximillian Kolbe, Dieterich Bonhoffer) were executed, and churches were warned to toe the National Socialist line lest they suffer the same fate. That most of them did speaks more to the human tendency to remain silent in the face of evil out of fear of reprisal than it does to any sort of particular affinity between Christianity and Nazism.

[booley]

55. Well Christianity was supposed to free the poor

Instead it got used by Kings and Popes and Inquisitors and Televangelists to get as many of the poor to give away what little they had.

Oops.

[JerseygirlCT]

72. Well, to be more exact

Christians were supposed to help the poor.

That they haven't done enough isn't necessarily a reflection on the teachings of Jesus.

[JerseygirlCT]

73. Dupe - please delete

[Hello_Kitty]

31. Christianity was about as bad 500 years ago

Islam is a relatively young religion and is going through the stage of desperately grasping to maintain its hold on the minds of its followers in a modern world that challenges its relevance at every turn.

That said, I'm of the opinion that all superstitious traditions are bollocks but YMMV.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. You need to learn a bit more about Islam

This sect has about as much to do with Islam as Fred Phelps has to do with Christianity.

[Ohio Joe]

48. True but...

There are few followers of Phelps and huge numbers that follow this brand of Islam.

[JerseygirlCT]

49. But again,

compared the number of Muslims, worldwide - not that many.

They've spread a bit of course - sent out by the Saudis - where this version of hate has been embraced by the Taliban and some in other countries. But it would be a huge mistake to judge all of Islam on this perversion of it.

[Ohio Joe]

50. I would agree with that

They are still very numerous and very dangerous.

[Aristus]

56. See my reply above.

Thanks for having my back on this one... B-)

[Lost in CT]

70. Phelps has about twelve non-relatives following him...

[JerseygirlCT]

71. I'm well aware of that

(My church has been subject to one of their nice little visits).

My point though, is about their twisted "theology". They're fringe - not just because there are only a few of them, but because their beliefs place them well outside any mainstream understanding of the faith they claim to hold.

Though the Saudis have assiduously spread their perverse version of Islam, it doesn't mean their take on it is at all representative of all of Islam, or that their "theology" is any closer to mainstream Islam than Phelps' is to Christianity.

[PM Martin]

44. I agree with you.

[tjwash]

51. Yeah...and christianity gave us waterboarding and gtmo.

You wanna go for the moral superiority angle again there chief? Or are you just content with broad-brushing entire groups?

[Nye Bevan]

52. Christianity *is* morally superior to Islam

So yes, that is the angle that I "wanna go for".

The Pope has never endorsed waterboarding.

Mullahs, OTOH, sentence young girls to be brutally stoned to death:

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10-26g-04.asp

This may make the politically correct brigade cringe, but it is true.

[csziggy]

61. Oh come on - the pope just endorsed excommunicating a 9 year old rape victim

For getting a medically recommended abortion to save her life. At the same time, the Catholic Church protects rapists and child molesters.

Most religions teach good philosophies of life but extremist sects of many religions have been used as excuses to harass and supress groups that do not conform to their narrow interpretations of their religion.

We need to fight those extremists without condemning all religions. Many people's lives are enriched by participation in a belief system. It is not fair to them to clump their more inclusive religion with the hate filled extremists.

[cbc5g]

76. difference is, the Pope didn't issue a jihad or fatwah for the girls death

[Gormy Cuss]

89. In effect the Pope did issue a fatwa endorsing other girls' deaths.

I don't argue that the Church should be inconsistent here or that they should change their interpretation of Biblical edicts to suit secular concerns, but papal rulings are the equivalent of fatwas and Rome is well aware that if adherents observe this one regarding preserving fetuses over mothers that there will be deaths of young girls. Their faith assures them that it would be God's will.

[Starry Messenger]

78. I can't believe I'm reading this on DU. n/t

[Mnemosyne]

60. Have you read the Bible at all? n/t

[Nye Bevan]

63. Yes- only the Gospel

and I liked it.

Love your neighbor as yourself....Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... and some very cool miracles. Turning water into wine, for example; a specific biblical endorsement of moderate drinking. Compare this to Islam where having a beer means a public flogging.

[indepat]

16. With vile friends like this, who needs enemies?

:P

[ensho]

19. guess the King of S.A. didn't really mean it when he recently fired

some of the religiously insane men.

the King needs to man up and stop being a sexist jerk.

[TK421]

22. This is disgusting n/t

[ogneopasno]

23. What a great ally!

[bridgit]

24. Renewables Now!!

http://www.eere.energy.gov

[Martin Eden]

30. President Obama: Please do not kiss Saudi Royalty

Yes, I know, you need to have cordial relations.

But don't do like Chimpy -- especially when the Saudis head a government that is guilty of such gross human rights violations against women.

[Lost in CT]

32. And yet womans groups are in Gaza protesting Isreal....

Why don't they go to Saudi Arabia (or pretty much any other country it the neighborhood) and protest there.

[JerseygirlCT]

37. And where is our official protest of this?

I'm sick to death of the coddling this regime gets, and the pretense that they somehow belong in the civilized world of countries. They are thugs, pure and simple. And there should never be any pretense that they are acceptable.

Wonder what the Syrian government has to say?

[dustbunnie]

40. 40 lashings for a 75-year-old woman? Doubt she'll make it.

[Lilith Velkor]

53. They don't do it all at once

They do it in weekly installments, so the victim can heal up before they beat her again.

If they intended to kill her, they'd simply chop her head off.

[dustbunnie]

54. Small blessings I guess.

The one I saw was of a man convicted of rape. He was stripped naked and tied to a pole. He got thirty all at once, and at the end, his buttocks were completely flayed of skin. It was nothing but red flesh. The screams stopped after about 15.

If this is anything similar, I could imagine an older woman going into cardiac arrest, or having a stroke, after the fifth or sixth stroke.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

41. They need to be

held accountable by the world community through the United Nations.

But they wont be.

Saudis were behind the attacks on 9/11 - they continue to treat women as chattel. 40 lashes and a jail sentence for a 75 year old woman? These people are the devil - the face of evil.

[dustbunnie]

42. I once stupidly started to watch a viral vid depicting a lashes punishment.

It was so brutal I still can't get it out of my mind two years later.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

45. Yikes!

I would have that image stuck in my mind forever.... I watched a waterboarding video and I swear I could almost feel the horror. People are so fucking screwed up...

Our country has used all sorts of horrible tortures and it is NOT okay. I am pretty certain that the USA has never done these things to 75 year old women who had 2 males visit to bring her some bread though. What a horrible story.

[cboy4]

46. And we all know how they treat teh gays.

:(

[B3Nut]

47. So two men were trying to be human and help a woman in need

and get punished, as does the poor woman. No religion should be allowed to wield police power...that's just asking for trouble. The religious police need to get over themselves. Abrahamic patriarchalism has harmed enough women...it's time for that useless mythological anachronism to evolve with the times or die in a fire.

I should start a side-project band...call it the Commission for the Prevention of Virtue and Promotion of Vice... :D

[MrSlayer]

57. Well, this is a perfectly reasonable judgment.

If by perfectly reasonable you mean completely psychotic.

[Lucian]

59. This is another reason why religion is bad.

[fascisthunter]

65. Renewable Energy

[Shireling]

68. I don't understand

the power rush that comes from being a BULLY. This will probably kill the woman.

[varelse]

75. "The case sparked anger in Saudi Arabia."

A top Saudi human rights lawyer, Abdulrahman Al-Lahem, volunteered to defend the woman and the two men and has been given power of attorney by them. He told CNN he plans to file an appeal in the case next week.

Efforts to reach Saudi officials at the Justice Ministry, religious police and other agencies were unsuccessful. A spokesman for the Saudi embassy in Washington said he had no details on the case.

The case sparked anger in Saudi Arabia.

"It's made everybody angry because this is like a grandmother," Saudi women's rights activist Wajeha Al-Huwaider told CNN. "Forty lashes -- how can she handle that pain? You cannot justify it."

[dustbunnie]

79. Well, no kidding. Honestly, all religions are fashioned to give aid to the elders.

Islam, Judaism, Christianity - whatever beliefs are passed on to the "youngers", the elders are supposed to be taken care of. Once you kill the old, the weak, well that's a given the society has descended into the oblivion of hell. Even atheists know that.

[tabasco]

77. AWOL Bush wants to watch!

He loves torture!

[goforit]

82. Saudi Arabians SUCK!!!!

[leftofthedial]

84. if you are not an atheist,

you have zero right to criticize.

[Occam Bandage]

90. That is absolutely disgusting. They were clearly only taking care of an elder. nt