Here we are in year 2009. Women, do you feel equal to men or not?

[Mike 03]

I was a toddler when Helen Redy sang "I am Woman," and I remember how important that was to my mother, and for the most part, I have swallowed this notion that women are equal human beings in our society. I've had a number of female superiors/supervisors, and they were fantastic and I thought nothing of it. It was natural.

But my sisters, who I treasure, have had complicated relationships that have led them to the opinion that things are not as great as it seems. Maybe things are not as equal as it seems. They definitely believe that conditions for women in this country are not as fair as they appear, and after a few years of listening to them and trying to help them I am beginning to feel that things are still not that great. My sisters tend to put others before themselves, and it is taking a toll on them, as human beings. It hurts me, as their brother, to see this. I am worried that maybe things in this country have not really become all that better for women, at least in some ways.

As I posted last night, I was watching the movie CHANGELING, which is based on a true story (which does not surprise me), and was absolutely beyond horrified by how women were treated in the first half of the last century.

Even though that movie takes place in the late 1920s, it gave me a creepy feeling that it also was about nowadays. For some reason, watching my sisters now, I don't feel that they are "free."

Something still isn't right, but I can't put my finger on it. We still have some ways to go, I think.

[SayitAintSo]

1. You are right .. things are less overt, but there is still a great

chasm between the way women and men are treated, especially in corporate America. And the women that are the most successful are more complicit than most men... that is saddest part....

[hedgehog]

12. I agree with your post. In some places, women are treated properly, but in others

you often are stuck wondering if you should suck it up or risk branding yourself as poison to future employers if you contact the EOC. I think the likelihood of good working conditions varies with profession as well.

[Captain Hilts]

21. Expectations are very different. nt

[hfojvt]

45. I don't have much experience with corporate America

So how does this chasm manifest itself? I did not notice anything in the 6 months I was with Citibank. In other places where I worked, it seems to me that women benefit from the chasm, that they get easier jobs or tasks and still make the same pay. As for the latter part, I seem to see women promoted, often with the imput of other women, even though they are less qualified than competing males.

[Darth_Kitten]

75. Easier tasks? LOL right.

:eyes:

[hfojvt]

140. Yes, I work in jobs with heavy lifting

Women typically are not made to do the heavy lifting. Men don't get paid any more for doing heavy lifting either.

[hlthe2b]

2. Mike03, this is an important subject, but in a word, NO

Women continue to be paid less, to be judged under a double standard (assertive = "succesful male" and "bitchy, difficult female"), and suffer tremendously from ageism--to a much greater degree than similarly aged men--in most fields. Advancement is still pre-judged by the stereotype of motherhood and thus, expected "breaks from career." Even single women without kids are judged by this standard and pay the price.

I have worked in settings where the women with doctorate degrees were routinely referred to by their first names, while the men were always referred to as "Dr. so and so." Yet, if one of these women complained, they were made to feel "elitist" and "difficult." Yet, this denigration of their place in the organization, vis-a-vis their titles, was costly and a not-so-subtle way to diminish them and to decrease their effectiveness.


No. There have been some improvements. However, in reality, the overt sexist policies have simply become a bit less overt, but no less detrimental and widespread.

[hfojvt]

46. I don't believe that the first one is widespread

"women continue to be paid less" Not in my experience. So I am hard-pressed to believe that is true for more than 10% of the workforce. I am also not sure about a double standard. Is "assertive" really equated to successful? My department head seem pretty laid back to me. Maybe he was assertive to get to the level of department head. Advancement is a tougher call for me, since I have not seen that much advancement. Lord knows my Y chromosome hasn't exactly helped me to advance.

Working in settings where people have doctorates, puts you in kind of elite settings. When I worked in the military though, I always used people's rank as a way do dehumanize them.

[hlthe2b]

50. And you would be quite wrong.

The Wage Gap Exists Within Racial/Ethnic Groups

White men are not the only group that out-earns women, although the wage gap is largest between white men and white women. Within other groups, such as African Americans, Latinos, and Asian/Pacific Islanders, men earn more than women (Source: U.S. Census Bureau).




(For example: white women earned 73.4% of what white men earned in 2001; in the same year, black women earned 84.8% of what black men earned.)

What Difference Does Education Make?

Higher levels of education increase women’s earnings, just as they do for men. However, there is no evidence that the gender gap in wages closes at higher levels of education. If anything, the reverse is true: at the very highest levels of education, the gap is at its largest, as shown in this chart.


The Wage Gap Exists Within Occupations

Some people think that if women move into male-dominated occupations in larger numbers, the wage gap will close. However, there appears to be a gender-related wage gap in virtually every occupational category. In researching this issue at the Center for Gender Studies, we found only four occupational categories for which comparison data were available in which women earned even a little more than men: special education teachers, order clerks, electrical and electronic engineers, and miscellaneous food preparation occupations (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics).

The movement of women into higher paid occupations, whether male-dominated or not, may not have the impact of narrowing the earnings gap. Social psychologists have demonstrated repeatedly that occupations associated with women or requiring stereotypically feminine skills are rated as less prestigious and deserving of less pay than occupations associated with men and masculine skills. Thus, as more and more women enter an occupation, there may be a tendency to value (and reward) that occupation less and less.

Do Women Earn Less Because They Work Less?

Women are more likely than men to work part-time. However, most gender wage comparisons leave out part-time workers and focus only on full-time, year-round workers. A close look at the earnings of women and men who work 40 hours or more per week reveals that the wage gap may actually widen as the number of hours worked increases. Women working 41 to 44 hours per week earn 84.6% of what men working similar hours earn; women working more than 60 hours per week earn only 78.3% of what men in the same time category earn (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics). Furthermore, women may work longer to receive the promotions that provide access to higher pay. For example, among school principals, women have an average of 3 years longer as teachers than men do (Source: National Center for Education Statistics). So it is hard to argue that women’s lower earnings are simply a result of women putting in fewer hours per week, or even fewer years than men.

Is the Wage Gap Closing?

The U.S. Census Bureau has made available statistics on women’s and men’s earnings for several decades. By examining this time series of data, it is possible to get a feel for the changes and trends in earnings. One thing revealed by a simple visual examination of the series since 1960 is how closely the shapes of the two lines parallel each other. The dips and bumps in women’s and men’s earnings seem to move in tandem. Clearly, similar economic and social forces are at work in influencing the rise and fall of earnings for both sexes. Men’s earnings do not stand still and wait for women’s to catch up.

Another thing that is apparent from the graph is that there is some minor fluctuation in the size of the wage gap. For example, the gap widened in the 1960s, closed a little in the 1980s, and widened slightly in the late 1990s. Thus, depending on which chunk of years one examines, it may be possible to conclude that the gap is either widening or narrowing. The only way to get a clear picture of what is happening is to examine the whole series rather than a few years at a time.

The series of data points from 1960 onward provides a basis for a forecast of the future, although such forecasts are always estimates rather than hard certainties. When we used forecasting analyses to project the earnings of women and men into the future, to the year 2010, we found no evidence on which we could base a prediction for a closing (or widening) wage gap. The forecast was, in essence, for the two lines to remain parallel, although the 90% confidence intervals (the range within which we are 90% certain the actual future earnings will fall) do overlap a little.




A Question of Value

As women and men left their jobs this spring because they were called up for military duty, employers scrambled to make sure that these workers did not suffer losses of salary and benefits. In a number of cases, organizations made up the difference between their employees’ military pay and their normal pay, held jobs open, and made sure that benefits continued during workers’ absence. At the same time, the media made a hero out of a father who chose to ship out with his military unit rather than stay home with his infant son who was awaiting a heart transplant. The message about what we as a society consider important is clear:

* When something perceived as very important needs to be done outside of the workplace, employers feel obligated to provide support for their employees to go and do it
*

In the eyes of society, or at least many employers, family concerns and the care of children do not fall into the category of “very important” --- certainly not as important as military duty

Are these the values we want to live by? If women and men continue to accept the notion that the domestic and caretaking work traditionally classified as “women’s work” is not important enough for employers to accommodate, the gender gap in wages will never close. A few individual women may be able to evade the gap by choosing to be childfree, being fortunate enough to have a supportive spouse, and carefully following a model of career advancement that was developed to fit men’s needs. However, to make the wage gap disappear will require that we stop buying into the idea that the rules are gender-neutral and that men just follow them better than women do. One by one, employers must be convinced to re-examine assumptions that unwittingly place higher value on the type of work men do than on the type of work women do. The most important step in closing the wage gap is for all of us to give up the notion that, to be paid fairly, a woman must “make it in a man’s world.”

Hilary M. Lips is a professor of psychology, chair of the Psychology Department, and director of the Center for Gender Studies at Radford University. She holds a Ph.D. from Northwestern University.

Lips is the author of A New Psychology of Women: Gender, Culture and Ethnicity and of Sex and Gender: An Introduction, as well as the award-winning Women, Men and Power. Her work has been published in a number of professional journals, and she is a frequent speaker on topics related to women, power, and achievement.

To learn more about the gender wage gap, visit this section of the Center for Gender Studies website http://www.radford.edu/%7Egstudies/sources/wage_gaps/worldwide.htm

[Stargazer09]

62. WOW! Thanks for posting that!

My husband and I have been arguing about the value of a college degree (my education has taken a back seat to raising my children). I kept telling him that the degree isn't going to be a magic wand that will make me rich, but he keeps pulling up statistics showing that (male) college graduates make more than (male) high school graduates with no college education. Maybe I'll make more as a female college grad than I would as a female non-grad, but I am very unlikely to earn as much as a man with the same degree and qualifications.

I'm still planning on earning my degree next year, but this information will help him understand that I'm not going to earn a full salary no matter what happens.

Edited to add a couple of words for clarity's sake.

[hfojvt]

90. statistics don't mean squat

I am a male college grad with a BA in math and an MA in economics. I make about $13,000 a year as a part-time janitor. Of course, I did have a $70,000 a year job with the military industrial complex, but once I jumped off the good job train, I found it impossible to get back on even with the great myth that a math major could make more money in the private sector.

[Stargazer09]

92. True...

I guess it all depends on the economy, as well as the job market. And I'm well aware that statistics can be manipulated.

If I had finished my math degree, and you and I both worked for the same company, it seems likely that you would have a higher salary based on your gender. Especially in something like mathematics, which is still strongly male-dominated.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been told that women can't hack it in mathematics (or engineering, or any hard science) throughout my college career.

I'm surprised that you can't get back into the "good" job market with your degrees. Can you go back to the military industrial complex, or is that no longer an option?

[lukasahero]

93. Actually, individual anecdotes don't mean squat

If you want to discuss the issue in larger terms than how you yourself have not reaped the benefits of male privilege, let's go. Otherwise, understand that in most real-world applications statistics mean a great deal more than anecdotes.

[hfojvt]

97. I was talking about college degrees, not male privilege

Statistically, a college grad makes more than a non college grad, but the opposite exists too. College grads who make less than non college grads. Ergo, there is nothing automatic about making more money just by graduating from college with good grades.

But, if you wanna talk about male privilege, I still don't see how you write off a group of males who don't seem to have privileges, unless you are making them non-persons. If the privilege really is attached to maleness, then I should experience it, no? To say that the average man makes more than the average woman, doesn't really do much for all the men below average, does it?

[PeaceNikki]

144. Thank you.

[hfojvt]

86. nice blivet, but it would help if they did not compare averages

For one thing, every job I ever had, from factory temp to graduate student, had a set rate that was the same for women and men. Where's the gap?

Comparing median annual earnings is pretty meaningless since people don't get paid the same to do different jobs. Nor should they.

[hlthe2b]

89. If you actually did your homework, you would realize

that there studies out there that compare job to job. But, apparently your mind is made up... Because YOU don't see it in your job, it can't exist...:eyes:

[hfojvt]

94. I have done my homework and found those studies to be pretty lame

Here's an example

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/women/equalpay/FactSheetTimeForEqualPay.cfm

"Equal pay has been the law since 1963. But today, 40 years later, women still are paid less than men even when we do similar work and have similar education, skills and experience."


"In 2002, women were paid 78 cents for every dollar men received."

That's just a BS stat. My first job out of college was as a GS-7 mathematician for the airforce. A woman in that job would have made just as much as I did. There is no GS*78% pay scale for women. I quit that job and went to graduate school as a teaching assistant. Made $5900 for my first year. Again, there is no teaching assistant*78% scale for the women in my department.

Then there is a GAO study of October 2003 that Bill Scher directed me to. They do regression analysis and close much of the gap. It seems to me though, they have a problem at the outset in that PSID is kinda fuzzy as far as identical jobs. Even if you look at a job like scanning prices at a store, that wage varies from store to store and from town to town, but I do not believe there is any store where a woman is paid $6.40 an hour to do that job while a man with the same experience is paid $8 an hour. You know what else you can see, if you notice it? Most of the people who go out in the cold to retreive shopping carts are male. They don't get paid extra to do that nasty job, I bet.

The gender gap is talked about as if it exists in all jobs. Women make 78 cents on the dollar for doing the exact same job. If that was true, why shouldn't I have observed it at some of my jobs? If the job is not exactly the same, then the "gender-gap" is there for a reason. It's a job gap. Warren Ferrell's analysis makes more sense in my experience.

[hlthe2b]

103. ...

Sorry the overwhelming evidence is to the contrary. To suggest a trend must be absolute in all job settings and all sectors in order to be true is just disingenuous and I think you know that. I'm sorry that you are currently hurting. Nonetheless your anecdotal situation does not change decades long trends.

Truly, hfojvt, I am sorry that you are having problems. I don't wish the current job struggles on anyone and I hope your situation improves drastically--soon.

[hfojvt]

128. I am really not doing that bad since 2003 or so

But I have a 20 year career since 1985 of generally crappy jobs, but also where I have not seen women underpaid in any of the jobs where I worked. But it is not about me and my crappy career choices and luck, it is about truth and evidence.

I am not saying that the trend must be absolute in all areas. It is the people making the claim who state it that way. As per the AFL-CIO link

"In 2002, women were paid 78 cents for every dollar men received."

Does that, or does that not say that a man does a job and gets paid a dollar and a woman does a job, the same job, and gets paid 78 cents? If, on the other hand, that stat is just a result of doctors getting paid more than nurses, and CFOs getting paid more than receptionists and both of the higher paid professions having a greater percentage of men in them, then where is the discrimination? It is not in the wages, it is in the career decisions. A place where everyone is facing hurdles and discouragements.

Again, the AFL-CIO continues

"Equal pay is a problem for all working women:"

And they list examples. But when you say ALL, that must mean women working at the government, where I worked. Women going to graduate school, where I went, and women working at the satelitte dish factories and the jello factory where I worked, and so on. I should have seen it somewhere. I have been around a little bit.

On the other hand, one response in this thread states that a female mathematician would make less than a male one. That statement was not based on actual experience in a company or school or wherever, it is based on an assumption derived from comparing averages. Averages which I think do not tell the whole story. Here's Warren Ferrell on this issue (although his name is mud to Gloria Steinem)

"Carlsbad, Calif. — Nothing disturbs working women more than the statistics often mentioned on Labor Day showing that they are paid only 76 cents to men's dollar for the same work. If that were the whole story, it should disturb all of us; like many men, I have two daughters and a wife in the work force.

When I was on the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City, I blamed discrimination for that gap. Then I asked myself, "If an employer has to pay a man one dollar for the same work a woman would do for 76 cents, why would anyone hire a man?"

Perhaps, I thought, male bosses undervalue women. But I discovered that in 2000, women without bosses - who own their own businesses - earned only 49 percent of male business owners. Why? When the Rochester Institute of Technology surveyed business owners with M.B.A.'s from one top business school, they found that money was the primary motivator for only 29 percent of the women, versus 76 percent of the men. Women put a premium on autonomy, flexibility (25- to 35-hour weeks and proximity to home), fulfillment and safety.

After years of research, I discovered 25 differences in the work-life choices of men and women. All 25 lead to men earning more money, but to women having better lives.

High pay, as it turns out, is about tradeoffs. Men's tradeoffs include working more hours (women work more around the home); taking more dangerous, dirtier and outdoor jobs (garbage collecting, construction, trucking); relocating and traveling; and training for technical jobs with less people contact (like engineering)."

Finally, this argument seems to be all about money, and I agree with the women surved above. Money should never be the primary motivator. If women start adopting that attitude in order to be more 'successful' then I think we have all lost.

[hlthe2b]

138. The issue is equality of opportunity...

Society should not be making an assumption that "women find money less important as a motivator" and thus determine to pay them less. To do so, is to exploit women. Your assumptions about trade-offs might have applied 20 years ago, but are sadly out of touch now. This "gotta pay the man more because he's got a family" nonsense, when more women than ever are single heads of households--is still used as an excuse, although it hasn't held true since the days of "Leave It to Beaver." But, hey... you did prove the OP's point. Women are NOT equal in this society.

[hfojvt]

139. augh. That is not what he was saying

Society is not making any assumptions, the data is being collected by surveys. Second, there is no "paying women less" per se. The corporate world generally says "give up your life to the company in order to advance your career". Most men do so, and most women with children do not do so.

So what are we left with? Companies should not demand people to give up their lives? That would be nice, but how? Secondly, isn't it fair for somebody who gives up their life to get SOME reward for it?

That payroll people are deliberately paying men more because men are supporting families, is just imagined anecdotes which don't fit very much of reality.

If I proved that women are not equal, then my conclusion is what Ferrell implies - women are better. That's what he said "Men make more money, women have better lives."

[hlthe2b]

149. Male denial.... As long as it makes you feel better.

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

104. I tend to agree. Most jobs I've had had set rates for men & women too.

The problem with averages is that exceptional numbers on either end can skew their usefulness. as in the common example of me & bill gates = average income in the hundreds of millions.

I've seen analyses by income quintiles (or some similar breakdown) where in the lower half of the income distribution, women have higher average incomes than men. More exaggerated for, e.g., lower-income african & native americans.

My sense is that the income gap data is skewed by exceptionally high incomes for (some) men at the top of the distribution. as a general phenomenon, over most of the income distribution, i don't believe in it.

& i think the meme is one more way the ruling class conspires to divide people into competing interest groups to fight amongst each other, convenient to manipulate.

[hfojvt]

111. medians tend to not be skewed

Thus the median for, say, you and me and Skinner, is gonna be the same as the median of you and me and Bill Gates. The mean, or average, will be skewed, but not the median, which is just the middle, where 50% are above and 50% are below.

However, there is no reason for medians to be equal. You could, for example, look at the medians for men over 6' 6" and compare that to the median of men under 5' 6". That median could very well be skewed by the larger number of tall men who are playing in the NBA or other sports where their size gives them an advantage. Then you might complain about a shortness gap as if the only reason Lebron James makes more than a postal clerk is because one is tall and the other is short.

I think some of this comes from people who do face discrimination in hiring and advancement and also pay disparities that may exist because of sexist male bosses. But that exists more for upper class women who are already well paid and thus are bumping up against a glass ceiling that really isn't relevant to most women who never reach those heights. For example, this pay disparity (and my comments on it).

"Women store managers, he found, made an average of
$89,280 a year, $16,400 less than men."

(Note, there is no comparison of years of service, should a brand new store manager make as much as one with ten years of service? Should a store manager in Chicago makes as much as one in Richland Center? You really need to compare similar size of store and similar years of experience. Finally, someone making $89,280 does not get alot of sympathy from me at $23,000.)

If I was making $90,000 a year I would not expect people making 1/5 of that to sympathize about how unfair it is that I am not getting more money.

[Hannah Bell]

118. I understand the difference between medians & means. I understand

that selective use of statistics can be used to prove almost anything one likes.

If honest comparisons were made, I don't believe there's a significant difference between most men & women's earnings for equivalent jobs with equivalent experience.

But I think there's a very significant difference between the ruling class & everyone else.

[sweetpotato]

77. Really?

I work at a university, in an office that handles the salary equity studies for the university. I can tell you that women are definitely paid less than their male counterparts.

[hfojvt]

88. I'd like to see those studies

because universities typically have a pay scale based on education and years of experience. An associate professor in department X makes a certain salary which increases over time depending on various performance ratings, I would imagine. There is nothing in there to pay an Associate Professor X amount if they are male and a percentage less if they are female. Now, if you have a higher percentage of males becoming Deans or department heads or in other ways getting extra money, that would be another story, but I don't believe there is any gap based solely on gender. I'm not just gonna take your word without any evidence.

[bettyellen]

152. Doh! " l if you have a higher percentage of males becoming Deans or department heads "

"that would be another story,"
that IS the story... and the fact thet you don;t know enough to know that's the reality explains a lot why you're doing so fucking well.
in short dude, you're as thick as a brick.

[noiretextatique]

135. i work in accounting...i see the payroll

i see evidence of gender and race discrimination all the time. i work for a non-profit, so it's even more glaring because of cronyism and nepotism. i am on a cultural awareness committee at work, and i've been agitating for more transparent hiring guidelines and salary scales for every position.

[Stargazer09]

64. I've seen that, too

Now that I'm done having kids, I'm perceived as too old to enter the job market successfully.

I've noticed that women with doctorates aren't treated with as much deference as the men. Also, how many women "experts" do you see on TV discussing science topics? If you see a woman giving her expert opinion on TV, it's almost always related to psychology or sociology. If the discussion is science related (stem cell research, astrophysics, etc.), the expert is male. The subtle message is that women can't cut it in science.

[Triana]

142. What hlthe2b said, exactly.

I would have listed these same things.

[Raine]

3. One thing I've noticed since hitting middle age

is how little worth/value there is for women of this age group. I feel like a nonentity, don't count for shit. :argh:

[hlthe2b]

7. Our society values only youth and the superficial...

especially when it comes to women. I wish I had an answer, but societies that do not value age, education, and experience are ultimately destined to fail.

[glowing]

8. Doesn't help that all the eye candy in mags just go get nipped and tucked.

Not all women have the money or the want to nip and tuck... Men need to get a life.

[Captain Hilts]

20. And women who don't wear shrink wrap are seen as uptight or lesbians. nt

[stevedeshazer]

22. I have a life. It doesn't include money or nip and tuck. Take your manhate elsewhere.

That's a mighty broad brush you're painting with.

[glowing]

26. I don't hate men... but what is it about people, men and women, who are

willing to go under the knife, add plastic parts into their bodies, and refuse to age.. its not all people, but its influence does seem to come from the Hollywood arena..

[stevedeshazer]

31. Okay, that I agree with.

My wife and I are aging unaided, without plastic parts. I still think she's cute at 60, just as it should be.

:)

[Darth_Kitten]

153. Why explain, didn't see any "manhate" in your post......

Maybe some guys needn't be so sensitive.

[Stargazer09]

66. What's wrong with a post-baby belly, anyway?

I'm rather proud of my stretch marks.

[Captain Hilts]

15. Well, you're less valuable as a breeder, so hit the road! nt

[Raine]

44. Yup, since everyone knows

that's all us women are good for. :eyes: :yoiks:

[Stargazer09]

73. LOL

I know the feeling.

:eyes:

[Stargazer09]

65. I feel the same way

My childbearing years are behind me, and I want to make a difference in this world without my work being interrupted by pregnancy.

But now I'm considered too old to be useful.

[Triana]

143. You and me both: Not eye-candy? Drop dead. n/t

[OnionPatch]

151. Boy do I relate to that.

I was pretty good-looking when I was younger, and I probably received some perks I didn't deserve. The reverse is a depressing eye-opener. Now I don't get any kudos even when I deserve it, and I deserve it a whole heck of a lot more now than I did when I was 25.

[NashVegas]

4. I Feel Equal, If Not Equivalent. I Don't Feel Treated Equally

How's that?

[hfojvt]

47. Kinda vague

In what ways are you not treated equally?

[NashVegas]

85. Do You Really Have To Ask?

One needs to look no further any given election year, to see how differently mens' and womens' aspirations are treated. Or check last year's GD: P archives, if you wish.

[hfojvt]

102. So you are Hillary?

In my local area we had 3 primaries that were male vs. female. In the two Democratic primaries the women won. In the Republican one, the woman lost, but that man lost to our female candidate in the general election. Our female State Senator also defeated an incumbent in the primary and then beat a male candidate in the general. The female Republican beat our male candidate in the 39th district. In the 41st both candidates were women, and our incumbent won again.

Only you can tell me your story, but also, I was glad to see Hillary get defeated.

[NashVegas]

109. I Don't See Me Telling You My Story

Your hostility speaks for itself.

[hfojvt]

132. Perhaps it does.

"I am a mean old lion." but I have shared some of my own story and have had several people reply with :eyes: the general meaning of which is "gee, you are incredibly stupid" and I do not believe I have responded with hostility. Although I did the other day. After I posted, I thought I had been unnecessarily snippy. That one strawman may have set me off. Then again, I am generally grumpy anyway.

[Stargazer09]

74. You hit the nail on the head

Good choice of words!

[valerief]

5. I remember when the Equal Rights Admendment failed. No, I don't feel legally equal. nt

[hfojvt]

48. Why not, though? What would ERA give you that you now lack?

With 'you' being generalized to all women, if possible.

[cap]

55. the ERA would ensure that women over 40 reach senior positions in companies

ever notice that outside the pink ghettos the career track is reserved for men and senior women are relegated to support and administrative areas of their profession?

A lot of offices still have the majority of management is male; the senior staff positions (non support or administrative) are male ; the junior positions are about 30-50% women to men.

There is no onboarding process for women who have taken off years to take care of children. Men would be taking time off for their families

Equal Pay would be a non-issue.

[hfojvt]

101. How is equal pay gonna be a non issue?

How are women over 40 gonna get those positions? By getting promoted over men who have given their time and energy to the company, vs. taking time off to care for children? Is a law really gonna force men to take time off to care for children? That seems like a personal relationship decision, except that there are no provisions for extended leave in that regard.

As far as equal pay, as the AFL-CIO quotes

"Equal pay has been the law since 1963."

[valerief]

170. Not everyone "wastes" their time on children, you know, the "future of America." nt

[glowing]

6. My main complaint is time. It never occurred to me that I wouldn't go to college

or that I wouldn't be a wife and a mother. It did occur to me as I was a child that I did not like my mother coming home tired and stressed and having to wait an hour before talking to her. It is really hard to try and be all. Be the mother with the time to do those things like read, arts and crafts, garden, keep a clean house, provide a balanced nutritional diet, and be able to respond to my child without asking for him to be quiet and let me be for a moment. Something has got to give in this society.. and I do believe that is the amount of time both spouses or family homes have together and not at work. There really is power in numbers. Women and men should not look at one another as competition and sallary decline, but as incentive to hold together and demand more time or themselves, paid decently for productive work that our society and world does actually need, and a life that feels more fulfilling in the short time we are here on this planet.

[hedgehog]

13. We also make no real provision for parents to step into and out of

the work force. My family faces a double whammy - we're missing out on the money I didn't make when I stayed home with the kids full time and since returning to work I've never made the same money as men with the same experience level as I have.

[ejpoeta]

57. Well, I think it is more like this....

I am a stay at home mom. As a stay at home mom who does not contribute financially, I feel guilty. But when I was working outside the home, I felt guilty that I was working and felt someone else was raising my child. When I was working, I felt that I had to come home and do all the housework too. So i had two full time jobs. It's like a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. As a stay at home mom, people look at me like I just sit home eating bon bons all day. But I get to read dora and diego books and sing twinkle twinkle little star. I'm not around adults much. How much of this is my own psychology? I don't know. I've spoken to other mothers who have the same guilt as a working mother or stay at home mom that I feel. Feeling less valued by society because I don't get paid in money for what I do.

[seabeyond]

59. i feel NO guilt. i know my worth, i value what i have given and accomplished

with my family.

i have NO desire to do it all. with boys 11 adn working on 14 i have the results to this point of what my contribution is. i do much of the home life, hubby brings in the money and we both get plenty of down time. there is NO guilt. there is a lot of appreciation that we are able to live this life. there is thankfullness that we have created an environment that is healthy, safe, good.....

my value does not get measured by the outside world. they dont know enough, anything to judge and if they did, assuredly they would be incorrect. the results are here for me to see, every second of every day.

and what society may value me as... fuck that shit. just approaching old age, i am seeing as a woman i am suppose to feel disposable, throw away. i dont buy into that crap either, lol lol

nah... i know we are to be conditioned your way of thinking, but i have never been much into being conditioned, by parents, society, religion, male, anyone.... lol lol. like who i am. not gonna adjust, change for anyone, wink

[ejpoeta]

67. i am glad you don't feel that way. i try not to, but it's hard for me for some reason.

And I am glad that I have the ability to be home. I am working on being confident and not feeling guilty. Some days I don't care, and some days I do. I know my husband always tells me that I DO contribute a great deal. That helps. And I am glad that I am here for my girls when they need me. I never want my kids to worry that I won't be there. The most amazing thing to me is how much I didn't even realize my mother did. She was a stay at home mom. She got sick when i was five and died when i was 12. I never really appreciated what she did for me... for all of her kids. I go nuts here with TWO kids (and one on the way).... she had SIX!! oh man, no wonder she had gray hair!! LOL!! but i do love being able to be here for my kids. But I do struggle with guilt. Hopefully someday I can stop feeling that way. I know one thing for sure.... I do NOT want my girls to think they have to do anything or be anything. I tell them they can be anything they want to be. PERIOD!! I mostly want them to be able to take care of themselves. And to be confident and not feel guilty about any choices that they make.

[Stargazer09]

81. I like your style!

You're right about the conditioning. It's hard to get past it, though. I think it's important for stay at home parents to have something of their own, unrelated to children. That will help.

Oh yeah, the disposable woman thing is ugly. It's like society assumes that the man is going to leave his wife during middle age and hook up with some hot young thing. Sure, that happens, but it's like a self-fulfilling prophesy for some men. The expectation is there, and so the men who buy into it start looking around. Fortunately, most of the men I know are above that stupidity and see their wives as more beautiful as time goes by.

Personally, I think it's hard for young women to accept that being a mom is okay, too. My dad treated me like I was wasting my life when I chose to stay home with my young children, and that hurt. Now, if he were still alive to give me a hard time about it, I'd tell him to go away. :)

[Stargazer09]

69. We see the rewards

While others see us as a burden.

Working outside the home gives us an income and a contribution to society. So does staying at home with our children. How many children are getting less attention and homework help than they need because the parents are exhausted and stressed from working all day?

I read a study that showed that women tend to work harder at home than their husbands do, even when both work the same amount of hours outside the home. And that was the case even when the couple had no children. Like it or not, society expects the care of the home to be primarily a woman's job.

I stay at home with my children, too. One of my children has some significant deficiencies, so staying at home gives me more time to work with the special education system to get him the help he needs. Can we put a dollar value on that? Not really. Would I stay at home if all of my children were "normal?" Sure, because that is something that both my husband and I feel is important for the children while they are young. Will I go back to work when the kids are all in school? Maybe. Or maybe I'll just have more time to run my home-based business and make it more profitable.

Despite how society views stay at home parents, I think it's ultimately a decision that the couple needs to make on their own. But it's important to let go of the guilt. Who says that our contributions to society are solely measured by our paychecks?

[Darth_Kitten]

79. Feeling guilty is a choice....and what's wrong with fathers helping to raise their own children, too

:shrug:

[Stargazer09]

82. Absolutely NOTHING!

It would be great if our society held all stay-at-home parents in high regard.

Unfortunately, dads who stay home with the kids tend to be treated poorly, too. :mad:

[Darth_Kitten]

112. I'm tired of women taking it all on themselves.......

and then feeling "guilty" to boot.

It'll be a cold day in Hell before I will congratulate any guy because he's changed a diaper in his lifetime. ;) :evilgrin:

Childrearing is not a task that's respected in our society.

[emmadoggy]

146. I'm a SAHM too...

A couple years ago, I had an opportunity to take a temporary part-time job. I wasn't that excited about doing it, but as you say, the guilt sometimes gets to you. So I thought I would check it out and see if it would work for me (my neighbor asked me to consider it - it was at her workplace). So I went in to talk to the boss/owner. It was the most uncomfortable and confusing interview I've ever had. Not long into into the strange discussion I was thinking I wasn't going to like working there. Then he dropped this one on me - "Well, at least it would give you something to DO."

That sealed the deal. Told me everything I needed to know about this man and his attitude.

Another man, our financial advisor, has questioned me more than once about returning to work. We were talking about when my children went to school full time that possibly I might go to work at that point and he made some comment that gave the impression of "well why WOULDN'T you?" and then DID say, "Well, there's only so much house cleaning you can do."

My children are in school now and I am still a SAHM although I do work on an occasional basis as a substitute teacher's associate in our school. It doesn't amount to much, but it's a little extra money here and there and it coincides perfectly with the kids' schedule - summers, school vacation days, early outs etc. It works out really well.

I do have a lot more free time now that the kids are in school and I don't always use it productively. But I love being a SAHM and have found it to be the most challenging and especially REWARDING jobs I've ever had. And I have been happier during the last years at home than I ever was during my "working" years.

[Holly_Hobby]

9. I'm still waiting for the Equal Rights Amendment n/t

[Lyric]

10. I *AM* equal to men. But I am not treated as such.

[Child_Of_Isis]

11. Equality

Personally, I think the only thing that "equality" afforded women was another full time job. What I see in my area is women are expected to be work horses. They work a full time job, come home & work another one while the rest of the family takes it easy or goes on about their life. Weekends are spent pretty much the same, catching up on grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning & the laundry.

It seems that women also spend a lot of energy in making sure the world sees the family, the partner, the relationship, in the best light possible. Until she hits middle age & the wrinkles begin to show. Then she is pretty much expected to fade into the background quietly because this reflects badly on the partner. No longer does he want to be seen at the local pub with her in tow. Most men trade in at about this time.

It's obvious that I live in a pretty backward area.:silly:

[Captain Hilts]

14. No. Women aren't permitted to guide the national conversation. On Sunday mornings. On gameshows, on

talkshows, in church, on late-night talkshows. On the comedy channel.

In print: Only 14% of the Washington Post's opinion pieces are written by women.

Nowhere can women guide the conversation.

[Triana]

147. Exactly. We're supposed to just STFU, cook and breed - and be eye-candy.

Until we're too old for that. Then, we're just supposed to drop dead.

[noamnety]

16. No.

Not at home, not at work. I think college was the only time I felt I was treated equally, but the school had previously been an all girls school and the founder was a woman, so that may have been related.

At work, definitely not. In the military ... well, enough said there. At my current job, even though I had the exact same qualifications as another male coworker - both vocational and degrees, he went to the boss and complained about my hiring because - without ever looking at my qualifications - he assumed my background was secretary, and he was insulted I was hired to do the same work as him. In reality, I've never worked as a secretary/admin person and my previous salary was well above his.

His starting pay at this job I found out was 7k above mine - he negotiated, while I was told very clearly negotiating wasn't an option, we had a pay scale based on years of service. I mentioned this to another female coworker at our level - she was shocked, she also had been told because we had the pay scale, there was no negotiating.

At home, I'm with a fairly progressive guy, and in fairness he does more than his share of the housework. But I still see some oddities - he can go to the basement and get a powertool, and it's his own business. Even though I came into this with my own full set of powertools from when I was a single homeowner (circular saws, drills, etc), if I go to that part of the basement he has to hover around and demand to know what am I doing there, like I am a child who needs supervision. It's infuriating at times, when it's my own tools.

Myself, my education always came second to that of whoever I was with. The guy gets his degree first, and when he's done, and I'm done supporting him in that, then it seems I'm allowed to go back to school.

This is really only touching the surface, now that I read what I wrote.

[Captain_Nemo]

17. Look at the numbers:

Congress: 17% women
Governorships - 8 women out of 50
Supreme Court - 1 woman out of 9 Justices

And we are 51% of the population. We cross through racial and economic barriers. We are the underrepresented majority.

[stray cat]

18. It is amazing how far we have come in many fields - we're not there

but it is a different world than my grandmother and mother faced with more respect and more opportunities. However, a woman still has to be better than a man to land leadership jobs.

[Captain Hilts]

19. People - men and women - still associate female authority and leadership with teachers and mothers..

and feel diminished by submitting to it. It's like they're in elementary school again or something.

Kind of like how we respect taller people as leaders more than shorter ones. When we're kids, authority figures are all taller than we are. We never outgrow that either.

[Progressive_In_NC]

80. where I used to work, she doesn't have to better than a man, just better looking

The healthcare industry has a TON of women working in clinical trials. But the uber-attractive women(and guys) always seemed to be moving up the ladder while the smart capable ones were too important and key to move out of their current postion.

I guess the upper level mangement (mixed between men and women at the old company) just needs something to look at in all those boring meetings.

[Lady Effingbroke]

23. No. I was just laid off because my former supervisor is a racist, sexist piece of shit.

I hope he gets laid off and ends up living under a bridge for the rest of his miserable-ass life, the sorry fucker.

:grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke:

[Staph]

24. I thought I was equal, but I was wrong.

I'm a graduate of West Virginia University -- our mascot is the Mountaineer. Yesterday the new mascot for the 2009/2010 school year was announced, a sophomore named Rebecca. She is the second woman to hold the post. The first woman, in 1990/1991, is presently West Virginia's Democratic Secretary of State, Natalie Tennant.

There was a great uproar when Natalie became the Mountaineer, cries of political correctness and assumptions that she was chosen as the affirmative action candidate. Nearly twenty years later, the reaction is identical. She can't be the Mountaineer! Only men can be Mountaineers -- look at the statue! She's only 5"2'! She can't grow a beard!



In 1972, I joined the WVU marching band in the first year women were allowed to march. I thought that this nonsense was over a long time ago. I was wrong.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Women get hit with a lot of heightism. If you aren't tall, you can't be taken seriously. nt

[Stargazer09]

83. I'm a 6'1" tall woman

Being tall might help, but in my experience, all it did was give the shorter men an excuse to talk to my chest.

[Captain Hilts]

123. Taller people earn more. And they win the presidency except for GWB's case. nt

[Stargazer09]

145. Really?

Where did you read that? I'd love to be able to put my height to good use. Maybe make up for being paid less as a female.

[Captain Hilts]

157. You probably break even! nt

[leftyclimber]

25. No.

I recently told my a white, male faculty member that I did not see myself when I looked at my program's faculty. He did not understand why, when most of the professors where white (and male).

Out of the several hundred people in my teeny, tiny field, there are eight women. There will be nine when I finish my doctorate, ten if the other member of my cohort sticks with it.

Out of about four hundred.

ETA: There are a lot more women in grad school, but most of us don't finish (or we go into private industry, not the academy). Most of them quit because of the messages they get that they don't belong, like they do in most sciences.

I was young when the ERA failed, but not young enough not to realize its significance.

[Captain Hilts]

28. 25% of women and 40% of men finish phds. Hang in there.

I'm close to getting mine, but keep your fingers crossed anyway.

[leftyclimber]

32. I'm hanging in there the best I can.

I'm in a quasi-STEM field. The sexism is indescribable, even though it's a "semi-hard" science.

OTOH, TZ made it through, and SallyMander's up for a TT job right now; I have comps next month. If I make it through that, I'm good. But if I get a job I'm expecting to be treated like the department secretary by my colleagues. It comes with the territory.

I will get tenure.

They can resent my plumbing all they want, 'cause I will have tenure.

:evilgrin:

I will still resent being treated differently due to my plumbing.

Thanks, Cap'n. I need all the support I can get. :hug:

[Captain Hilts]

33. I'm in Russian politics. The politics of economic reform.

It's pretty male too. Male students have better mentoring than female students have.

[leftyclimber]

35. Sounds familiar.

My advisor is rather confused. He vacillates between (a) I'm his personal secretary, (b) I can cover all the things he doesn't want to do, and (c) I should be molded into a girl version of him even though he's known from day 1 I am there because of expertise he has that doesn't follow the research fad he's decided to chase in the last year (I'm in year 4 and damn near done). IOW I'm still interested in the research area he was in when I applied to the program rather than the shiny thing he's decided to chase as of about last August.

He's also trying to culture-fy me, as I am not a child of privilege and he feels the need to "fix" my backwards hick-ness. He's very condescending and paternalistic, and he has a great reputation in the field, although how I am not sure at all.

And he doesn't understand why I don't find any of these three options exciting, especially when the guys are encouraged to chase whatever research leads make their little hearts go pitter-pat. There's this weird assumption that I'm some sort of stupid, empty vessel that needs to be filled with his Manly Wisdom, unlike the guys, who are all perceived as equals.

It makes me resentful and angry. Surprise, surprise. At this point I'm about ready to finish my degree and take a few steps down on the pay scale and just teach so I don't have to fool with his research agenda crap any longer. Just like all the other women in my field who get their degrees and don't go into research -- the few I mentioned before are the ones who do research and get published. (I should probably add that this dude votes D but doesn't think anyone who isn't among the socioeconomic elite is a human being. :banghead:)

I know that getting a Ph.D. is more of a hazing ritual than a test of your knowledge. I'm just fed up with getting hazed.

I've never really talked about how upset I am with this treatment before. I'm glad I have somewhere I can get it off my chest.

[Captain Hilts]

36. I was a poor, grubby, military kid who went to a shitty undergraduate university...

when I got to the University of Toronto. The kids were from academic families or were pretty wealthy or went to swanky undergraduate schools. I didn't really fit in. I couldn't afford to go out and socialize, photocopy reading materials at ten cents a page, etc.

[leftyclimber]

38. I'm intimately familiar with U of T.

Hang in there. Regardless of the advising you get, having that name on your diploma will take you very, very far.

(And Toronto's a really fun town. ;) )

[Captain Hilts]

39. After all those years in Norfolk, living in Tee Oh was great.

hang tough. I'm 'here' for you, as they say on the Lifetime network.

Friend of mine got a phd in physics via the Fermi lab. She's got stories.

[noamnety]

30. My daughter volunteered for her college's hiring committee

She was very frustrated when they continually expressed no interest in making an effort to hire women of color - or even men of color. Then the faculty sits around in distress wondering why their student body has no diversity. "How come only the white kids want to come here?"

About half the other (all white) women on the committee understood the issue. 100% of the men were unable to comprehend the point being made.

[leftyclimber]

37. Oh, hell. I'm willing to bet that it's not just women of color they're having trouble hiring

if hers is anything like the university I'm at at the moment. These old, white men seem to think that if they exist and periodically hire someone from Asia on an H1B they're developing some sort of "diverse" faculty. Ours is a state that is 98% white but has a rather large population of students of color from out of state. And these white guys don't understand that having faculty that looks like "us," whether it's plumbing, skin color, or both, adds to the retention rate.

There's this assumption that everyone WANTS to be a privileged white man and will stay in college accordingly. Whether it's government cheese, baling hay, or just being female, I can't tell you how many students I have struggled to convince that they belong there, too, through relating my struggles to theirs. It would be easier if I as an instructor were made to believe that I was actually a part of the university. But I am not.

There is no way I can express my anger at the wrongness of this on a message board. I fume every day I am at work at all the undergraduates who don't make it because of the subtle messages they get that they don't really belong. Grad school, hell. We won't get any underrepresented populations in grad school if we can't convince them that they belong long enough to get a Bachelor's degree.

[tabatha]

29. I feel equal to men - fighting for it all the way.

However, men don't always respond the same way.
Until they do, women who may feel and should feel equal, will still have to deal with the crap from men who are not well adjusted.

[Starry Messenger]

34. No.

I got my terminal degree in 1997, and worked slowly gaining experience in my field in a variety of low-paying jobs moving up until I finally got my present position in 2006. I was hired along with a teaching partner who just got their degree that same year we were hired. This person had a few years experience but not 11 years. Can you guess the gender of this person? :)

Men and women still don't start out quite on the same rung.

[Skittles]

40. I AM SUPERIOR TO MEN

YES INDEED

[redwitch]

68. And anyone who says different is in for an ass kicking!

"I married beneath me, all women do".-Lady Astor

[Arugula Latte]

70. Preach it, Sistah!

:D

[DFW]

72. Big deal. My wife is a woman, so I've known that for years.

Tell me something I DIDN'T know!

[Hannah Bell]

41. you know what? i don't think anyone is "free," & the difference between

american men v. american women seems trivial in comparison to the difference between the US ruling class & other americans, in these times.

you know what else? i think the women's movement was to some extent a creation of the aforementioned ruling class.

more people working for pay = more profit for them & lower wages for all.

[marions ghost]

52. LOL

Look, the womens movement was spearheaded by more privileged women--yes--but a creation of the ruling class with a profit motive?!? OH noooooo............:rofl:

hey girl do some research and stop making superficial assumptions.

I agree with you that the ruling class vs the rest of us may seem to be a bigger, more pressing issue, but it is really all part of the SAME problem. Put the womens movement in context will you, instead of just seeing it as a "trivial" side issue.

:shrug: PS--Where did you GET this idea? What book or website?

[Hannah Bell]

87. hey, "girl."

i lived through it.

i got the idea through my own lived experience & knowledge of history.

not some website.

[marions ghost]

96. no need to take offense,

Hannah Bell woman.

But it's incredibly hard for me to imagine that anyone who "lived it" would hold the view that the ruling class elites invented the womens movement for profit. Sorry to question this, but it sounds well...anti-liberal. So therefore how did you arrive at this then? By what logic born of experience? Honestly I have never heard this before. Honest.

So where's the profit? Seems less than profitable to me.:shrug:

Thanks for putting this idea out for discussion at any rate...

[Hannah Bell]

100. Look into the family connections of the forerunners of the women's movement

& the social networks of the modern "leaders" (media-designated).

Then look at what happened to household & family incomes for the bottom half of the income distribution starting in the 70s.

The popular American sense of "liberalism" starts from an individualist perspective. But power is established & maintained through social & family networks, not by isolated individuals.

[marions ghost]

107. I'm dimly aware

that the forerunners of the women's movement had upper-crusty connections and came out of some of the most exclusive women's colleges. But does this automatically make them NOT liberals, just some kind of crass exploiters? It's a big leap in logic there. To blame the inequality of income and abuse we see today on the women's movement seems very far-fetched to me. You seem to see all those influential "social and family networks" as Repiglican. Some are, some aren't. And anyway what about the "rebelliousness" of the times--couldn't some of these young women then have been rebelling against the abuses of their elders? I just don't see the connection, OR the profit motive.

Maybe it would help if you could name names of women you think embodied this opportunism from the early days of feminism, and then also the names of what you see as the "modern" leaders (I'm drawing a total blank there--I don't think there's a"new wave" of feminism, no matter the hype. I can't even think of any woman daring to call herself a leader of it now--are there any with any real influence? Is Camille Paglia still around? Does she do the devil's work these days? Sorry but I've been so involved with the Bush era saga I haven't been following the womens movement or whatever it's now called--I pretty much thought it was dead, except that the Hillary candidacy revived it a bit.

[Hannah Bell]

108. I'm not going to argue the case with you. I've done a lot of detailed research

coincident to my interest in the origins of ruling class power generally, & that's the conclusion I've come to. The networks definitely *are not* exclusively republican; they're not even exclusively american.

By "modern," I mean the big (media-hyped) names of the 50s-70s. This is the period when I was a naive young woman myself, & bought the party line.

Oh, & yes, the "women's movement" IS dead as a mass phenomenon. it remains in name only, as a tool of ruling-class politics, a tool of manipulation.

[marions ghost]

110. I'm not arguing the case

just trying to understand where and how someone would come to your opinion, especially someone who is apparently so well-versed in it. Can I read a book that explains the thinking behind the idea of the women's movement as "a tool of ruling-class politics, a tool of manipulation?" Just ONE source--or at least explain the connection in your mind. WHAT manipulation? Who was manipulated by it and how? Manipulated into what? Becoming a woman who has the right to live her own life--how is that manipulation? I do at least credit the women's movement with promoting that idea.

I'm just not getting it. :banghead:

[Hannah Bell]

113. I already explained where I got the idea, by studying history.

The packaging of the "meaning" of the women's movement: "Becoming a woman who has the right to live her own life" - is only one possible package.

You might think about who gave you that particular package, how many women (or men) *really* "live their own lives," & what "one's own life" could possibly mean, e.g., if one's very identity is a product of their particular socio-historical position.

Manipulation - is a big topic.

There's no book or article to go to.

[marions ghost]

125. Whether it's an illusion or not

more men had that illusion than women--that they could live their own lives. (Otherwise no woman's movement would have ever gotten any traction).

Illusions & self-image translate into confidence. Confidence translates into performance. Performance leads to success in the usual societal terms. Sure, it's nothing more than a crack at it--no guarantees--but it's a crack at it that women have not historically had.

The women's movement calls into question whether women are "free agents" and thus whether any of us are free. Sure, I see the women's movement having huge implications & benefits for men also. (Who doesn't?)

What alternative is there? If the women's movement was some kind of scam why did intelligent women get involved in it? Seems it addressed a need.

Why did you become so against it? In what way was it more negative than positive?

[Hannah Bell]

134. Begging the question of whether it's an illusion. Also begging the question of

what "performance" could possibly mean, or having "a crack at" (performance, success), or "success" itself.

I suppose house slaves considered themselves to have succeeded, & historically, their descendants did better in the life lottery as measured by income, property, & social position. But that, to me, carries very little weight when explaining the causes of the civil war & the civil rights movement - which i also believe aren't well-explained by the dominant paradigms.


Sometimes the gap between people's frames of reference is too wide to bridge with casual communication. I believe I understand your perspective, as it's a dominant one which i shared for many years. I thank you, though, for being civil with your questions & remarks (I usually get more snark!)

[marions ghost]

150. well I see why they snark

because you don't explain your views and act like any questions expressed in general terms are rather beneath you. So maybe you're just playing games with me and I'm slow to catch on?

OK so change my "frame of reference" then. Don't worry --I can handle it. I'm open to ideas and not stupid enough to think that I always have the right POV. Not looking to fight, looking to understand. Or are you writing a book and don't want to give your concepts away?

Far be it from me to defend dominant paradigms. I'm sure that MUCH history is revisionist. You seem to be some kind of nihilist to me, ie.--Nothing is real, true, believable, or even worth discussing. :shrug:

Did the women's movement burn you THAT badly? If so I certainly respect your desire not to talk about it, but why not? Don't you think that women ARE somewhat better off? You seem to think that women are worse off than ever. What's the other paradigm that I don't know about? Is it a secret?

[Hannah Bell]

154. Not beneath me at all, but I'm old enough to know from my own experience

on both sides, that some ideas are inacessible until you more or less come to them for yourself. When that happens, other people's writing can clarify, elaborate, spin, etc., but they can't put ideas into your head you don't already have a framework in place for.

Trying to communicate when there's not some mutually shared ground is futile & leads to bad feelings. You are apparently a decent person (i.e. you didn't immediately resort to snark when someone contradicted your way of thinking.) I don't doubt you're open - you've already shown that. But there's no way I can briefly communicate my meaning without going though economic history & lots of other stuff just for background.

The women's movement didn't "burn" me. I just came to a different understanding than the one I was inoculated with. I don't think women are worse off. I don't think they're particularly better off, either. but mostly, i don't believe the women's movement occurred exactly for the reasons the national mythology tells us it did.

& of course, what's the point of reference? My mother, grandmother, great-grandmother? I don't know how your family was, but in mine, e.g. women in my grandmother & greatgrandmother's generation worked, homesteaded by themselves, smoked cigars in bars, etc. The stereotypical versions of history where women were sitting on tea cosies until the 60s don't capture the lived reality.

[marions ghost]

177. we know the grandmothers were strong

and worked hard. But they were not going to enter the 20th century without a BIG adjustment. The 20th C was radically different from anything that has come before, I think it's safe to say. We are not living in the land of our grandmothers. It can hardly even be compared. My mother embodied the conflict of mid-century women. She was a young news reporter who was paid half the salary of a man doing the same job. Talk about exploitation. Hers is a story of the daily stress and conflicts of the woman who dared to break out of the mold (she had wanted to be a doctor but was told that was not OK for women). Her life was harder than her daughters in that way, so I know women are somewhat better off now. But a lot has to change before women are "equal" to men in the economic sense. (Of course I think that women are equal in the human sense and have unique contributions to make).

What caused the women's movement to catch fire was the effort to seriously redefine what it means to be female in a world designed, developed, controlled & ruled by men for centuries. And the effort is ongoing, as the responses in this thread illustrate better than any further elaboration on my part. Surely that's not debatable. The old paradigms just didn't work in the industrial, technological world. They needed to fall.

So why'd you put out your "thought" in the first place, only to hide behind a wall of obfuscation? Doesn't give much credibility to it. How about writing a definitive book so you can discuss all that economic history that is so critical to understanding your POV. If your thoughts are controversial, all the better. Some of us like to see something framed differently. But so far here you really haven't given one shred of evidence or argument that supports your original statement & I don't think you will.

Maybe where you are coming from is the idea that women will only learn to be "just like men" if the emphasis is on equality. Do you fear that women's unique strengths will not be appreciated if all they do is imitate men (as they are forced to do to get ahead in today's business world)? I'm guessing as you give no insight.
:hi:

[Eryemil]

42. Until the day the word 'slut' ceases to be an insult women will not be equal to men in the eyes...

...of society.

One of the most obvious signs of female repression I, as a male, am aware of is the demonizing of female sexuality.
It makes me livid and depressed when I hear young girls calling each other slut, whore etc. When men do it I honesty get the urge to rip out their tongues.

[Stargazer09]

84. Thank you for that

Women are not allowed to be open about their sexuality, and that is probably at the heart of everything. As long as women have to hide such an important part of their lives, we will always be treated as inferiors.

It's nice to hear that we have allies. :)

[Control-Z]

43. Sometimes it feels like

the road to equality has, at this point, only obligated many women to work two full time jobs. One, for lesser pay than our male counterparts. The other, for no pay at all. Men still reap the benefits in almost every facet of life.

As a woman, can you even imagine coming home after working all day, and having your husband/boyfriend/partner rush in from their job to start dinner for you and the family? Can you imagine him scurrying around to get a load of laundry going, while picking up around the house as he goes, and setting the children down to their homework? Now, what about the dinner dishes? Does he do them? Or even get the kids in the bath while you do them?

Guys still get brownie points for carrying their dishes to the sink, or helping out with dinner. For helping. That in itself says it all. He is "helping" the person who is ultimately responsible for doing the work in the first place.

Nah. I don't get treated equally.

Even though I am ten times more capable, and have always been ten times more productive.

[hfojvt]

49. I used to do the dishes for a friend I had dinner with

As a bachelor though, I do all of the housework as well as yardwork and repairwork, etc. Of course, my house is a mess, and my meals are pretty simple. Plus, I only do laundry and shopping for myself, and two dogs.

[dana_b]

156. amen- that was my situation too

until I decided to divorce (not condoning that for anyone else though!).

Why we put up with cooking, cleaning, taking care of children with little to no help is beyond me. My mom did it for years and I swore that I'd never be like that. Then I ended up like that and hated it.
Why is it "babysitting" when he took care of the child? Why did I allow that? I still ask myself that.

[Captain Hilts]

159. Men don't feel compelled to 'bring something' to all social events. Six pack. Women are expected..

to bake something.

Screw that.

[seabeyond]

51. listen to the vile, crude, disrespectful way males speak about females today. no, they do not see

females as equal, which ultimately hurts them more than it does the female. a person cannot speak that disrespectfully to a group and see them as equal. they can only do that when they feel superior. i say female because it is not just our women they speak in this manner to but also our girls. and our girls and women that giggle when spoken to in that fashion think it means they have become "equal" are totally cluelessness.

they lose out

it doesnt behoove either gender and is causing a mess that neither gender realizes, nor will appreciate in their unknowing

[Captain Hilts]

124. Women need to make a better claim to our language and speech patterns.

No more sexist language.

No more talking like 8 year olds.

No more talking in a whisper - like all those ads on TV.

No more singing and speaking in false high voices.

Ladies, it's okay to have a deep voice, a northern accent and to speak like an adult!

[NNN0LHI]

53. There won't be true equality until women must also register for the Selective Service

That will be the ground breaker.

Don

[Captain Hilts]

160. I completely agree with this. Especially as they are now the majority in medical school and..

are more likely to have skills the military needs.

[Marrah_G]

54. I think things are FAR better then they were- but we still have a ways to go

I speak on in regards to our own country, not the Earth.

[ProfessorGAC]

56. A Wise Reply, Marrah

I'm always concerned about those who sacrifice good at the altar of perfect. We need to acknowledge improvement, then look for ways to further improve.
GAC

[lukasahero]

58. Scene from a current TV show:

Male and female work partners talking about their 'relationship'. He says in his eyes she's 'like a guy, only not' and that's why their partnership works. She gives it some thought and understands. Then she says, so to me, you're like a woman.

The look on his face, the objections he raises, even the music in the background and the director's choice of framing make it astoundingly obvious that it is not ok to call a man a woman. I'm surprised there wasn't a laugh track.

Do I 'feel' equal? No, I don't.

[treestar]

60. Maybe about 98%

There are a few disadvantages left to being female but not much. Dumb little things like what Hillary wears raising comment when her male counterparts wouldn't get those comments.

[Stargazer09]

61. No, we are far from equal

When I worked for corporations, I was offered less pay than the males in the same company who were doing the same job. They tried to tell me that it was based on experience, and they did everything that they could to hide information about how much my male counterparts were making. It wasn't based on experience, because I had more than they did. It didn't matter. I was female, and I was less important.

I spent the last 11 years serving part time in the military. I've had supervisors promise me a promotion then give that same promotion to someone else during my maternity leave. I had a supervisor tell me that he was sorry when I told him about my pregnancy, then had him turn around a month later and give yet another promotion opportunity to someone else. One of my male supervisors told me (off the record) that I'd never get promoted because I had children, despite the fact that many of my male counterparts had children and were promoted on a regular basis.

One woman at higher headquarters accused me of "getting pregnant to avoid deployments." She didn't have the courage to say it to my face, but she said it to a good friend of mine, and she refused to say my name outright. But since it was a very small career field, my friend knew exactly who Betty was referring to. For the record, I didn't get pregnant to avoid deployments; I got pregnant because my husband and I wanted children, and he wasn't capable of getting pregnant. Besides that, I was never offered the opportunity to deploy in that job, because every opportunity was taken almost immediately by some of the more adventurous people who loved deploying every chance they had.

Back in 2000, I visited a Navy base and received permission for a personal tour of a submarine. My dad had served on submarines for most of his 20-year career, but he died before I had the chance to have him show me around a sub and tell me what he did. During this tour, the chief kept telling me how glad the Navy guys were to have no women allowed on their boats, and he kept wanting to take my picture (using my camera) in the showers and the bunks. He made it very plain that I was nothing more than a sex object that had no place in his submarine, and if he was representative of all of the men who served on that submarine, that's a very sad state of affairs. (With that said, I can understand the Navy's decision to keep the subs male-only, but the impression I received was that the entire Navy saw women as unfit for duty.)

I agree with the person who commented that other women can be our own worst enemies. In all my years in the military, I've met some women who cried sexism every single time they got overlooked for anything, and others who cried harassment every time someone made an off-color joke or looked at them funny. But the ones that bothered me the most were the women who said that they'd get pregnant if faced with a deployment. As a married woman in my childbearing years, it was difficult enough to serve in the military without feeling like every pregnancy was an inconvenience to everyone else. To have women saying that they'd do whatever it took to get out of their duties, even if it meant sleeping around until they got pregnant (these were younger women who were unmarried and unattached), really made me angry. No wonder the men didn't feel like they could depend on the women in their shops. The men had to have known what these women were planning, since the women made no effort to keep their plans secret (which was probably deliberate), and that probably left the men feeling like they were being forced to do their own jobs plus those of the women in their shops.

Gender issues aren't going away anytime soon, and they probably won't as long as our society believes that raising children is unimportant. Even women without children suffer from the biases against women who choose to be mothers. It's really sad.

Thanks for asking about this. I haven't read all of the comments yet, but it's nice to see some discussion about this topic.

[TwilightGardener]

63. I can still see differences in treatment: watch a male doctor speak

to a male nurse, and then watch him speak to a female nurse--the male nurse is treated like a competent, professional team member, the female nurse is treated like a helper. I must have witnessed this a hundred times, in various settings, in my short nursing career.

[Darth_Kitten]

71. Not when all these bailouts go to men..........

:evilgrin:

[Arugula Latte]

76. Not treated equally ... No way.

Far from it.

All my life I've been condescended to, patronized, leered at, and interrupted and talked over by men. I got a passing grope at a concert when I was 12 ... 12! Men let you know early on that you are their object to do with as they please. You don't count -- you're just a body.

I recall one time when I was at my then boyfriend's house visiting his "friend." That friend wouldn't let me finish a sentence. When I was mid-thought he would cut me off and speak over me to my boyfriend. It happened over and over. That is just one example among thousands.

[Captain Hilts]

182. You're considered a temporary hobbyiest in fields where men are taken seriously. nt

[dustbunnie]

78. The words to the Helen Reddy song are nice -

but women don't really stand toe to toe. Women can be terrible to each other.

I suppose I'm less free than men are, since I have to watch my ass when I walk alone outside at night, or into a car park, while traveling, etc... whereas most men don't really think twice about it. Of course, men have more of a chance of being beaten in a bar brawl for no reason, but they do that to themselves.

Work wise I was lucky in that, although I worked in an all-male department, the rest of the office was well-populated with women and the CEO was female too. The floggings were equal opportunity, as well as the promotions. My field in general is quite progressive toward straight women, GLBT, straight men otherwise considered oddballs, etc...I know that doesn't exist everywhere though.

I often listened in to the guys when they had their little kaffee klatches, and they were quite open about the opinion that American women are low self-esteem people and that the easiest way to seduce such a woman was to treat her like dirt or criticize her body in some way. They were adamant that this tactic worked, that a low self-esteem woman would do anything to get positive feedback rather than walk away, and sadly, I believe it.

My SO and I probably seem traditional in the sense that I do all the cooking, and he gives all the financial advice. Those roles don't bother me, as I love to cook and can't add my way out of a wet paper bag. It'll be great when people can just be, according to their talents and contributions, and not because of some societal stereotype.

[Lance_Boyle]

99. "but they do that to themselves"

How exactly do men "do that to themselves" WRT being more likely to be beaten in a bar brawl for no reason? By choosing to be at a bar?

You might wanna think that one through a bit more.

[dustbunnie]

105. I meant, most men beat other men at bars. It doesn't happen often that women start wailing on men

at these places. The man beating on woman over a sports team or for looking at his spouse scenario is less likely too. As a woman, I'm less likely to be beaten by another woman and am also less likely to be raped by one. I do have to fear being raped by a man if I wander around alone at night. So yeah, I think I thought it through well enough.

[Darth_Kitten]

119. Men can be even more terrible to other men......

the worst office bitches are MEN (at least where I work). Seriously, what jealous, snippy little boys. The stereotype of bitchy women can sometimes only be that. Yes, some women are, those with too much time on their hands. :evilgrin:

Anyways, the guys who start berating women and thinking women will never fight back have another thing coming if they start in on me. I'm amazed how many women will not fight back.

Maybe these insecure cowards need their own #$#@# tossed right back at them.

[MellowDem]

91. One thing I've been noticing...

especially in the last decade or so are the numbers of women compared to men who graduate high school, college, or even higher education. I believe the last numbers I saw are that 55% of all bachelor degrees obtained last year were women. And it was 60% for graduate degrees. Give that a couple of decades and men will be wondering where their rights went! ;-)

Though on a more serious note, the ever growing education gap between men and women is worrying.

[Darth_Kitten]

121. Why? Men's jobs will still pay more.....

I know guys who brag they never finished high school yet still make way more than many women with years of higher education.

[MellowDem]

129. Well, that's why I said give it a few decades

It's only the last decade or so that the gender gap has been so wide in education. It will take those graduates some time before they're in the management and decision making positions.

[Captain Hilts]

122. Nursing and teaching degrees account for a huge percentage of women's degrees compared to men. nt

[MellowDem]

And those are fairly good degrees to have in this economy! nt

[MellowDem]

130. And those are fairly good degrees to have in this economy! nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

95. Not only no, but HELL NO.

I was born in the 50s. I went to college, worked hard, and got a Juris Doctor (law degree).

However, did it help me get a job??? No it didn't.

I've had male bosses and female bosses too, put me down and belittle my abilities.

It doesn't help that I am five foot three. Tall people like to intimidate short people, and I include tall women in that.

I get no respect, like Rodney Daingerfield.

Movies and the media are all about men. For example, in The Dark Knight, there is one female character, Vicki Vale, and she gets killed off quickly. There goes half the audience, because at a movie you will find somebody of your own gender to identify with. This tells me that only men are important and only male activities are important. There are plenty of movies with no, or very few, female characters. Violence and gore are glorified. Torture, stalking and murder of women is very common in movies and TV shows, to the point that it is routine.

Same thing with the Sunday talk shows. Women are not thought to have important opinions about politics, science, or whatever. They must defer to men.

The GOP thinks that women are so stupid they will vote for an idiot like Sarah Palin, because she is allegedly equivalent in experience and competence to Hillary Clinton. They hate women and don't understand womens' issues at all. Most of the men are probably closet gays.

:grr: :wtf:


One true story: In 1974 I was doing temp work down close to Mission Control, near NASA in Houston. I was working for a contractor as a secretary.
My boss said, "Richard Feynman, I'm sure you don't know who he is".
I said: "He wrote the Feynman Lectures on Physics".
Then he said: "Carl Sagan, I'm sure you don't know who he is".
I said: "He teaches astrophysics at Cornell".

He shut up after he got shot down a second time.

He thought I was a stupid little 18 year old college student. I was dating guys that were physics/math majors so I knew about Sagan and Feynman.

What a jerk, but sadly, all too typical.

[TwilightGardener]

116. The height aspect is even worse than the female aspect in terms of

fair treatment, IMO. I am under five feet, and at almost 40, I am still not taken seriously and often openly mocked for my height, in almost every job I've ever had and in many social situations.

[Arugula Latte]

137. About TV shows ...

It pisses me off how few kids' shows there are that showcase girls. Almost all the main characters, whether they're human or animal, real or animated, are male. Awhile ago I was happy because "Dora the Explorer" featured a girl in the title role. That lasted for a little while and then they brought in the boy "Diego" and he is basically given as much attention as Dora now.

[Captain Hilts]

161. We had a thread that was devoted to over 75% of Disney's characters being male. nt

[Captain Hilts]

158. My beau and I noticed the absence of women in speaking roles in ALL the previews at a movie

we went to see last week. Only Julia Roberts. She was the only woman with a speaking role. People don't want to hear women speak or speak authoritatively.

[dustbunnie]

164. Actually no. It's a prob.

But saying Disney was "sick" because he couldn't divine what would be in fashion in 2009 from his 1937 aspect is just gross. Plus the fact that no American woman seems to know what are old folk tales, and attribute them to Disney; how dumb can one be?

[Captain Hilts]

165. I don't get the 'sick' comment either. Weird. nt

[PM Martin]

98. My wife says no.

I agree.

[annabanana]

106. "Equal"?. . . piffle. .

We're BETTER

[cherish44]

114. No I think society has a problem with strong women

"Bitch" is what they're called. "How do we beat the bitch?" -Woman at McCain meeting.

[Kitty Herder]

120. I've responded to that by embracing the word "bitch."

"I'm a bitch, you say? Why, thank you."

If bitch means strong woman, and judging by the women who are frequently labeled with that epithet, that's what I've concluded it means, then hell, yeah, I'm a bitch.

[cherish44]

126. True, words only have the power the listener gives them

I just find the epithets for women...bitch, whore, ballbuster, c*nt etc. have a lot more sting to them than similar epithets for men. I do think men and women are equal but not treated as such by society.

[Captain Hilts]

162. They're also becoming more acceptable in public discourse whereas epithets for men and minorities...

are now less acceptable in public discourse.

[Scout]

115. i AM, and always have been, the equal of men...

my treatment by society, however, is a different matter.

I AM equal, but i am not treated as though i am. Make sense?

[Kitty Herder]

117. Do I feel equal? Yes, of course. Am I treated equally? Definitely not.

I, along with my female co-workers, have been discriminated against in a former workplace on the basis of gender, but in a way that made it difficult to do anything about it.

But the most difficult thing, I think, is dealing with men in intimate relationships. My ex-boyfriends might have said that they think women are equals, but then they treated me like I was a lesser being, didn't respect me as an equal. That's why they're exes. ;-) I think a lot of women would rather put up with that shit than be alone, but not me. I know there are good men out there who truly do respect women as equals, but there aren't enough of them to go around. Sigh... The straight woman's dilemma.

[Lorien]

131. Isn't that the truth! Sometimes it seems like those decent few only

make up about 5-10% of the single men out there. The rest will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, but as soon as they start getting comfortable the mask comes off. I swear, I've met far more cavemen out there in the past decade than I knew back in high school or college. Eight years of BushCo only made a not great situation much worse.

[Lorien]

127. Do I feel that I'm a man's equal? Yes. Do I think that our society agrees with

me? No. I've been paid less then my male colleagues for the exact same job (significantly less). My male trainees were always promoted over me, I've been told that I "don't need a job because you can just get married instead". I've gone to a doctor seeking treatment for serious conditions and have gone away undiagnosed with a prescription for anti-depressants because I must just be a "hysterical female". I've been emotionally and physically abused by men, sexually assaulted, bullied for my appearance because I was too thin or two fat or too busty or too blonde or whatever the hell anyone else decided because it's ALL about looks, apparently. Do I wish that I had been born a man instead? Oh, hell yes.

[cynatnite]

133. I know I'm equal to men, but at times I'm still treated as being less than them. n/t

[noiretextatique]

136. no, in a word

i don't feel confident that i would get the same salary offer as a man with my education and experience.

[Captain Hilts]

163. Because you won't. You'll pay more for a car and its repair. And higher rent for the same apt.

People are intimidated by men and try and anticipate what they want as they know they are more likely to bargain.

Men are 8 times more likely to ask for a pay raise than women are.

[noiretextatique]

167. actually my problem is more that

i am not deferring or humble or grateful...or stupid. i price my car parts online to make sure mechanic's don't screw me over + my dad was a mechanic. i have a below market apartment in a really great part of town, and i have no problem asking for a raise. however, i do have a problem getting a raise because my department is undervalued in the company. a part of the problem is historical, but a bigger part of the problem is my female boss is somewhat of a doormat.
i don't quite know how it say this, but i don't seem to fit many folks stereotype of what a black woman should be like. in my department, i have technological skills that surpass my supervisor's and the cfo's. they like the fact that i am there, but i think they also resent me and are vested in keeping me in my place, so to speak. story of my life...with one exception. i once worked for a latina woman who wasn't intimidated by me or vested in denying my expertise.

[Jamastiene]

141. Until we at least get equal pay for equal work

and equal credit for a job well done without the "for a girl" part attached to it, we are not free or equal in the eyes of our government or our society yet.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

148. Not until women's biology is accommodated.

During pregnancy, childbirth and nursing, that we have paid time off,and support net works for baby sitting if we go back to work. And not being penalized for having to take time off to have babies.

I was off work four months during the last part of my pregnancy and two months after the child was born. I could not work after I was 24 weeks along because I was so big that I could not sit up without my ribs hurting from the baby pressing on them. I was short of breath all the time as well.

Hell, we should get at least two days a month off work for our menstrual cramps, if we have them. I had them every goddamn month for decades. Sometimes it was four days. Many a time I had to go to work and I was absolutely exhausted, barely able to sit up and in great pain from cramps.

I was in court one time working and I had to stand up and ARGUE with the judge at 12:30 in the afternoon to get a lunch break. He didn't want to stop. I told him he could call my doctor and ask him about my blood sugar problems. That was not a specifically female health problem, but the judge was determined to ignore it.

On edit:After that argument happened, that judge's regular court reporter died at the age of 40. She had worked herself to death typing up appeals from capital murder cases. She died of respiratory collapse. She had been one of my teachers in court reporting school. The judge thought that if he wasn't at the courthouse that they couldn't get along without him. Well, they can get along with out anyone in particular.


The workplace is in chaos because there are always hyperactive men who need little sleep and expect everyone else to work to the exclusion of food, bathroom breaks, sleep, exercise, and family.

[Laelth]

155. The backlash has been enormous.

The growth of the power of women in the past 100 years has given us the insane Republican Party we have to deal with today. Republicans blame blacks, browns, and various other folks for their ills, but it's really women that they fear and hate (while, in reality, they can't really hate women because most men are biologically programmed to love them). Pink Floyd's The Wall shows how fascism is a masculinist attempt to re-assert "male" power in the face of utter male impotence against "female" power. One could argue that the 20th century was the most violent in the history of humanity because of the rapid and unprecedented growth of "female" power. It is no wonder that men have reacted badly. The change has been swift and dramatic. I continue to believe that the change has been for the better, but the change has come at a high price.

Whether the genders are "equal" in any way, however, I can not say. The jury is still out on that subject. In many ways, that question is irrelevant. What happened happened, and there's nothing we can do to change it now.

:dem:

-Laelth

[carlyhippy]

166. I think so, but I still have a little southern belle left in my DNA

I appreciate the chivalrous male who opens doors, takes care of stuff I don't want to, etc.

[Captain Hilts]

179. EVERYBODY should hold the door for the person after them. nt

[InvisibleTouch]

168. Not only equal, but, honestly, advantaged.

I guess my experiences have been different from those of many others. I've never once felt "unequal," inferior, disrespected, lesser-than, or what-have-you for being female. Quite the opposite, in fact. I've often reflected on how fortunate I am, and wouldn't want to be male in this society for anything in the worlds. Throughout my life I've had interests, passions, and hobbies that are generally considered more typical of males, and I've found that a female with "male-oriented" interests is regarded as unusual in a very positive way. At the same time I also have interests that are considered traditionally female - and I can openly indulge in both. The reverse isn't true for men. A man with a passion for "female-oriented" interests and hobbies is still looked at askance, ridiculed or avoided; he can't be open about his interests. Likewise women have a far greater range of "socially acceptable" emotional expression than do men. And then there's clothing: I can wear dresses or pants, as the mood suits me, and no one would raise an eyebrow. Not many men could go about in a dress, even if they wanted to. If anything it's the men who are constrained and forced into rigid roles, while women have far greater mobility and can try on so many more roles. It's not right, but that's how it is in our day and age.

[Laelth]

171. Thank you.

Also consider the following:

Which gender has the shorter lifespan?
Which gender is more likely to go to prison?
Which gender is more likely to be homeless?

In fact, males are more likely than women to suffer from almost every social ill imaginable. Personally, I appreciate women who "own" their power--see it for what it is, admit that they have it, don't abuse it, and show just a little sympathy for men.

:dem:

-Laelth

[raccoon]

173. Do males have to be very careful where they go, especially at night, because of fear of being raped?

Not generally. Women have to be far more concerned about their personal safety, in general, than men do.

Which gender is more likely to be beaten or killed by their intimate partner?

Which gender is more likely to have the crappy paying job, and trying to raise kids and fight their ex for child support?

[Laelth]

175. I hear you.

But more men are raped in the U.S. than women (mostly due to our prison system).

I work as a domestic relations attorney. I know who the victims of domestic violence usually are (women), but I also know who gets locked up for it, often when they're innocent. I know who's more likely to get custody of the children. I know who's more likely to be ordered to pay child support. I know who's more likely to be able to get government assistance to help the family during hard times.

It's nice to see women who will own their power. Men are (generally) physically stronger and have greater economic opportunities, granted. Women have enormous power, though, that most of them refuse to even acknowledge. That makes it hard for us to discuss this subject rationally.

:dem:

-Laelth

[InvisibleTouch]

184. The safety issue is a valid one...

...and one that I've become more aware of with the years, but that in itself doesn't make me feel "unequal" or "inferior." It just makes me aware, careful, and ready to defend myself if necessary. As pointed out, men have other disadvantages. One can choose not to put up with an abusive partner, and I have never felt disadvantaged in terms of career choices. In fact, I see myself as having had a much greater range of choices. I have to agree with Laelth that we as women have a great deal of power simply by virtue of being women, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing or an abusive thing. It may not be the exact same type of power that men have, but it's by no means inferior, and I would dare to say, in many ways more potent.

[Captain Hilts]

186. A "greater" range of career choices? I couldn't play major league baseball or be a submariner.

Still can't.

The heads of all the failing financial institutions and banks are all male as well, including some minority men. All the presidents have been male. Only one woman has been PM in Canada and England. Women don't host Sunday morning chat shows, game shows, or late night talk shows - only afternoon programing specifically aimed at 'women'.

Women are just now breaking into directing of films and television and comprising the majority in medical school. Men still get more phds.

[InvisibleTouch]

188. I have absolutely no doubt...

...that if it had been my life's goal to be the president of a failed financial institution by the time I reached 40, I would be writing this today as the president of a failed financial institution. Or a successful one, even! It just so happens, though, that I have absolutely no interest in running financial institutions (or political parties, for that matter). My passions are elsewhere. Perhaps it's more a matter of a difference in interests that accounts for the ratio of men to women in various careers, rather than that women are being "kept down."

[NutmegYankee]

189. Submarines have a good reason though.

There is flat out no Privacy. Men walk around the bunk spaces in their underwear or worse and squeeze into narrow heads and showers. There just isn't space to separate out people by gender. When the military looked into it in the 90's, the only conclusion they had was that if women really want to be submariners, there would need to be an all female submarine crew.

It isn't about equality, it's just the practicality.

[Captain Hilts]

190. On a submarine you pee by yourself and shower by yourself. nt

[NutmegYankee]

191. I know.

But you also walk out of the shower right into a head which requires you to squeeze by your crew mates. The problem is there isn't enough space for separate gender facilities. As of right now, the heads are so cramped a porta-potty seems very spacious.

[Captain Hilts]

192. They're talking about putting women on the missile boats.

There is more room and it's hard enough keeping enough men who'll do this job - especially among officers - that it is less practical to draw only from half of the population.

As for the attack boats, the issue is moot because there are so few of them they're doing whatever they can to get rid of sub sailors.

As a Nutmeger, you know that.

Keep the faith!

[asteroid2003QQ47]

169. "Equal" is impossible in a Patriarchal society. eom

[dropkickpa]

172. Nope

Not at work, definitely not at the doctors office, not in many places.

[raccoon]

174. To answer your question, no.

Among other things, which other posters have covered, the double standard is still very much alive and well.

A straight man who's promiscuous is considered a stud.

A straight woman who's promiscuous is considered a slut.

[acmavm]

176. Do I feel equal? Hell, I KNOW I'm equal. I sit here watching the

mess the world is in and since I have a list of the current players who brought us ot this point, I know equality would be a step down.

Women are nurturers, care givers, menders and healers.

edit: Don't judge women by the size of their paychecks. Judge us by what we do, who we are.

[Captain Hilts]

178. Women in leadership positions are not natural nurturers and menders.

They go through the same socialization processes to get where they are as men go through.

[acmavm]

180. Bullshit. Now prove it.

[Captain Hilts]

181. Ghandi, Thatcher, QEI, ...Eleanor Roosevelt would have nuked Japan too.

Getting to a leadership position is a powerful socialization process on everyone who gets there.

[acmavm]

183. Eleanor would have nuked Japan? She told you that?

What war has Queen Elizabeth started? How was Madame Gandhi as bad as any of the men running India or Pakistan? Or the US? Did she tank her economy?

Thatcher is an anomoly. She's just a worthless person all the way around.

[Captain Hilts]

185. QEI, not II. Truman consulted ER in June of '45. She always supported the decision and

in her correspondence with him from the 1950s she said that having been to Japan she realized more than ever that it was the correct decision.

Read history.

[acmavm]

187. Oh fuck, QEI fought a purely defensive war (and won) against the

Spanish. She tried her damn level best to keep England out of Europe's never-ending wars. Didn't do so well in the Netherlands, but she has some undue influence in that area.

Eleanor Roosevelt thought that American lives would be saved by dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. She wasn't let in on the secret apparently that those Japanese had to die the way they did so that Truman and Churchill could intimidate (or attempt to intimidate) Stalin. Or that it was just a matter of time before the Japanese had to surrender anyway.