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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:19 AM
Original message
Your Opinion, Please.

I'm hoping that DUers will assist me on a small project. I would appreciate it if you could provide me with your opinion on "why" the Bush-Cheney administration was considering suspending Amendment 1 (specifically, freedom of the press) in their post- 9/11 war on terror?

See:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/187342

Any serious response is appreciated, no matter how brief or long.

Issues that you may consider include: Who would have been the target? Fox News? The retired military analysts on the various cable channels? Papers such as The Nation? Programs like Democracy Now!? Bloggers?

Also, was such a plan merely "considered"? Or did actions by the administration go beyond attempts to shape the news, and actually pose a more serious threat to Amendment 1 ?

Thank you for your consideration.

H2O Man



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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. They wanted to control and prevent any criticisms of their march to war.
IMO, it was an effort to keep the American people in a state of fear and fury, so that they could go directly to Iraq after Afghanistan. And, it worked.

The rhetoric they used achieved the same ends as censorship. With us or against, dissent was deemed unpatriotic. Whether the threats and actions to limit free press were just insinuated or actually carried out, I don't know. We know that FUX News got the talking points faxed daily from the WH.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Keep the work of investigative journalists
from being published (a-la Pentagon Papers.)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. They wanted to cover-up their own criminal incompetence, at best.
Their treasonous complicity, most likely.

Know your BFEE: James R Bath - Bush - bin Laden Link

It's a slam-dunk.

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:40 AM
Original message
Control the message, create "reality"
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 10:42 AM by Cerridwen
Part "1984," part "Brave New World." While corporations predominate in media ownership, business interests can not always be trusted to support interests more concerned with empire than profit or that empire builders' interests will align with business interests. At the risk of Godwin-izing my post, businesses supported hitler in his early efforts only to become horrified at what they'd helped create.

From one old and one not so old post of mine:

"...the dictatorship of the future will be very unlike the dictatorships which we've been familiar with in the immediate past.

...take another book...George Orwell's "1984"...written at the height the Stalinist regime, and just after the Hitler regime, and there he foresaw a dictatorship using entirely the methods of terror, the methods of physical violence...I think what's going to happen in the future is that the dictators will find, as the old saying goes, you can do everything with bayonets except sit on them.

...{the new dictators will find} if you want to preserve your power indefinitely, you have to get the consent of the ruled, and this they will do partly by drugs.., partly by these new techniques of propaganda. They will do it by bypassing the rational part of man and appealing to his subconscious and his deeper emotions and physiology even...making him actually love his slavery.

...this is the danger that actually people may be in some ways be happy under the new regime. But they will be happy in situations in which they oughtn't to be happy..."

Aldous Huxley, The Mike Wallace Interview, 5/18/1958 link to thread


A more recent post:

A FAIR survey of the New York Times and the Washington Post op-ed pages for the three weeks following the attacks (9/12/01 - 10/2/01) found that columns calling for or assuming a military response to the attacks were given a great deal of space, while opinions urging diplomatic and international law approaches as an alternative to military action were nearly non-existent.

<snip>

In addition, both op-ed pages showed a striking gender imbalance. Of the 107 op-ed writers at the Post, only seven were women. Proportionally, the Times did slightly better, with eight female writers out of 79.

<snip>

There is also a little-acknowledged gender gap in poll responses about military action, a fact that lends new significance to the gender imbalance in Washington Post and New York Times op-eds. In the final two paragraphs of a 1,395-word story titled "Public Unyielding in War Against Terror " (9/29/01), the Washington Post pointed out that women "were significantly less likely to support a long and costly war." According to the Post, while 44 percent of women would support a broad military effort, "48 percent said they want a limited strike or no military action at all."

<snip>

Of course, gender equity on the op-ed pages would not guarantee proportional representation for dissenters-- some of the most virulently pro-war and anti-Muslim columns have been written by female commentators (e.g., Mona Charen, who called for mass expulsions based on ethnicity-- Washington Times, 10/18/01). But given the gender differences suggested by polling, more women on the op-ed pages might well give the lie to the conventional wisdom that all Americans have no-holds-barred enthusiasm for an open-ended war. link to post


I'd say they mangaged to circumnavigate the 1st Amendment without rescinding or suspending it. Which was good PR on their part. As people have noted here, "hey, we can still post on the internet." In some research I've been doing lately, I've noticed more and more archived documents are available only for a fee. There's really no need to censor when all you have to do is charge admission. Since many subscribe to the idea that "it's just business" and "business has the 'right' to make money and control their workers and product, etc." there's really no need to deal with that "stickey wicket" known as the Constitution.

All you have to do is put a price tag on privacy, freedom, and other "silly" rights and call it "business as usual."


edit: grammar
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. What's your timeline as I will be busy later today?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. No hurry.
Any time works fine.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. I've been thinking about Peter Arnette a lot lately
Remember him? He was drummed out of his job as "respected war correspondent" early. He had the the temerity to say that he thought the Iraq war wasn't going well and was disappeared from the airwaves. Peter Arnette won a Pulitzer prize for god's sake. He interviewed Osama bin Laden. How does a man like that get canned so fast?

The most intriguing part of Arnette's story is that his son-in-law is none other than John Yoo.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. And Dan Rather--he dared to question Bush too closely, so he got canned,
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 01:26 PM by tblue37
despite his decades of exemplary journalism.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. That's astonishing! nt
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
7. I forgot to recommend. Fixed that.
:D

:kick:

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I Don't Know Why
As the press, for the most part, was complaint and willing to male their case for them. For example, planting the story about 'mushroom cloud' in the Times and then referencing it on the Sunday shows. Of course there were also the Judy Millers of the press corps. And calls to Russert about Tweety and others. I think their ultimate target was the internets where there was no control and plenty of dissenting opinion. As to inception of the policy, I think if the Iraq war hadn't been such an immediate disaster and the WMD lie hadn't been exposed as quickly as it was, they would've leaped forward like frogs.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. This Was Meant To Be A Reply To The OP
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Even the * Administration, even in late 2001, knew it was crazy
Or they'd have acted on it.

They did all they could to get as much executive power increase as they could.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. Ostensibly, it would be to prevent
aid and comfort to the enemies or some claptrap. After 9/11, who knows what the public would buy. I believe it was issued and held in reserve some reason.

There was some action planned or some secret that Bushco didn't want known. Some false flag would have been used to bring the memo to the fore if the press had gotten too close. I have no idea what it is or was. The mind reels at what could be out there.

Either there was no opportunity to put some plan into play or they couldn't get their ducks in a row to pull it off. I am in tinfoil hat territory, but I've been there before. I'm not sure I ever left. :tinfoilhat:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. they wanted to use the press to promote their own militarization
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 11:40 AM by bigtree
They wanted to get Americans on board in their paranoid grab for power with a campaign of propagandized fear.

In January 2006, top Army general Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, speaking at the American Enterprise Institut said that 21st century warfare is more about "will and perception, than taking territory or enemies killed." (http://www.blackanthem.com/World/military_2006011903.html)

He mused that information is critical as 'firepower' in 'long war'. The American people must remind themselves every day that the United States is at war, the general said.

Fighting the 'war on terror' was the Bush White House militarists' bread and butter. They had a vested interest in seeing enemies everywhere. Anyone who they regarded as an obstacle to their cabal's consolidation of power was the enemy.

Rumsfeld spoke on the need to control information surrounding their expansive wars. "U.S. military public affairs officers must learn to anticipate news and respond faster, and good public affairs officers should be rewarded with promotions," he said.

"The Pentagon's propaganda machine still operates mostly eight hours a day, five days a week while the challenges it faces occur 24 hours a day, seven days a week." he lamented. He then complained that the "vast media attention about U.S. abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq outweighed that given to the discovery of "Saddam Hussein's mass graves."

However, he was just upset that there were pictures, proof of their crimes. That's the control they wanted with the press that surrounded their imperialism. Their concern with the news wasn't just about protecting soldiers or catching al-Qaeda, although there were those things going on in the military planning room that may have involved legitimate security. The thrust of their efforts was to create a zone of 'good news' that would permeate the airwaves and print media, and obscure the bloody images and alarming reports which provide the public with a clear view of the realities of the disaster in Iraq.

Bush revealed his own desire to shade the news to reflect his rosy outlook on Iraq: (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060321-4.html)

"It's -- confidence amongst the Iraqis is what is going to be a vital part of achieving a victory," he said, "which will then enable the American people to understand that victory is possible. In other words, the American people will -- their opinions, I suspect, will be affected by what they see on their TV screens . . .

The Pentagon and Bush expected for the images that they paid for and fed into their purchased press in Iraq to trickle into the mainstream media to be quoted and disseminated around the world as a counter to the realities expressed by the daily images of violence and despair coming from the occupied nations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Woodrow Wilson was also obsessed with good press during the war. He urged legislative action against those who had "sought to bring the authority and 'good name' of the Government into contempt." He worried in his declaration of war, about "spies and criminal intrigues everywhere afoot" which had filled "our unsuspecting communities and even our offices of government."

During his presidency more than 2,000 American citizens were jailed for protest, advocacy, and dissent, with the support of a compliant Supreme Court.

The Wilson-era assaults on civil liberties; Schenck v. U.S.; Frohwerk v. U.S.; Debs v. U.S, Abrams v. U.S., were ratified by Supreme Court decisions which asserted that free speech in wartime was a hindrance to the efforts of peace. Justice Holmes, in upholding the 1919 Schnek case, in which leaflets were distributed that expressed opposition to the draft, wrote of the words of protest: "Their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight" (referring to the war), and that "no court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right."

Justices Brennan and Holmes wrote the majority opinion which was phrased as the new "clear and present danger" test in which they argued: "The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree."

Justice Holmes said, "We think it necessary to add to what has been said in Schenck v. United States . . . only that the First Amendment while prohibiting legislation against free speech as such cannot have been, and obviously was not, intended to give immunity for every possible use of language. We venture to believe that neither Hamilton nor Madison, nor any other competent person then or later, ever supposed that to make criminal the counseling of a murder within the jurisdiction of Congress would be an unconstitutional interference with free speech."

The Court wanted to draw a clear line between free speech and harmful speech, but their reasoning was blunt. The effect of the ruling was a stifling of protest and dissent.

In the case of Frohwerk, the Supreme Court used the Schnek decision to uphold the convictions of two newspaper workers for publishing articles which condemned the war. The Schnek decision was also used by the Supreme Court in 1919 to uphold the conviction of Eugene Debs under the Espionage Act for giving a public address condemning capitalism, advocating socialism, and speaking in defense of those who had been imprisoned for exercising their free speech rights. Similarly, in the case of Abrams, the Supreme Court upheld the conviction for distributing antiwar leaflets.

Eventually Holmes would move away from his ruling on Schnek in his dissent in the Court's upholding of Abrams. Justice Holmes worried in his minority opinion that, "A patriot might think that we were wasting money on aeroplanes, or making more cannon of a certain kind than we needed, and might advocate curtailment with success."

In the 1917 case of Masses Publishing v Patten, at the beginning of WWI, Masses Publishing had argued against the postmaster general's refusal to allow the distribution of its journal which attacked capitalism. Justice Learned Hand had ruled that the draft violated the First Amendment. Hand said that, ". . . the government may prosecute words that are "triggers to action" but not words that are "keys of persuasion." A reversal promptly followed his decision.

Not until 1969, would the Supreme Court unanimously abandon Schnek standard to overturn the conviction in the case of Brandenburg v. Ohio; in support of the free speech rights of a member of the Ku Klux Klan. The Brandenburg ruling braided the "clear and present danger" standard with Justice Hand's 'incitement test."

A footnote for the majority opinion observes that, "Statutes affecting the right of assembly, like those touching on freedom of speech, must observe the established distinctions between mere advocacy and incitement to imminent lawless action," for, it stated, ". . . the right of peaceable assembly is a right (related) to those of free speech and free press, and is equally fundamental."

The reversal of the Klanman's conviction affirmed the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

The broad decision in Brandenburg gave future courts room for the passage of the many protections of public expression and advocacy which we rely on today in our dissent and protest. As Justice Douglas wrote in 1958: "Advocacy that is no way brigaded with action should always be protected by the First Amendment. That protection should extend even to the actions we despise."

That's the real danger in allowing the Pentagon and the WH to control the news. The reactions of Yoo and the Bush regime to the press was a direct response to the wave of initial protests against the Bush wars, as they worked to change public attitudes and erode support for the occupations; as they began to actually thwart what the WH and Pentagon had been insisting were matters of national security.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
11. it's hard to know bu$h*/cheney's motivation.....
it's my nature to assume the worse of these guys, but i will wait till more info comes out to form an opinion.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. an alloy of fear & message control; when you listen to these same mouths talking about vietnam...
they believe that that incursion was lost due to media streaming battle field horrors into the living room of america creating opposition and of course it didn't help seeing the so-called war plans of the most just nation of earth languishing there either so that they longed for the days when they could, essentially, march across europe before a dispatch hit a copy desk in nyc or hearst could work it into a newsreel either way yellow-journalism & the 'free press' did their part in a conflict where rights & wrongs were more delineated...

if your task is to blur all lines between ala catch 22,23,24,25,26 your charge becomes less cronkite and trends more goebbels
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. My personal opinion is
that they believed their own rhetoric about a "liberal media" and probably would have used the measure to punish -- or even detain -- any journalist who opposed them. Much to their surprise, the media turned out to be a very effective propaganda machine. So, the measure was totally unnecessary.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm still baffled why people are still saying they "considered" it..
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 01:28 PM by tridim
They did stifle the media quite effectively in the run up to the war.

CNN, FOX and the NYT are just three media outlets that catapulted their bullshit propaganda with gusto.
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. 1st step in creating a fascist state: control the media, and silence the dissenters.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. In case any type of SERIOUS revolutionary talk started on
the internet, they would be able to flip a switch and cut off communications.
Remember this?
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/internet_dhs_wants_master_key_for_net.htm
>>>snip
THE US Department of Homeland Security is insisting that Verisign hand over the master keys of the Internet.

If it succeeds, the US will be able to track DNS Security Extensions (DNSSec) all the way back to the servers that represent the name system's root zone on the Internet.

Effectively it would mean that US spooks could snoop on anyone in the Worldwide wibble and place control of the Interweb tubes firmly in the paws of the US government.

The information that Homeland security is after the "key-signing key", currently held by Verisign, was revealed to the the meeting of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) in Lisbon.


"And when you trust your television
What you get is what you got
Cause when they own the information, oh
They can bend it all they want"
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. Threaten, coerce, bribe.
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 02:04 PM by Gregorian
I'm only saying the obvious. But I imagine that huge sums of money were spent paying a number of people off in order to get them to go along. Yoo, perhaps. I would bet that you saw Jonathan Turley on KO's show discussing this. Yoo is a personal friend. Yoo's arguments were similar to those a professor would red mark and send back to be rewritten. That alone throws up flags. What was going on that caused Yoo to do that?

Bush's job on the First Amendment would have been to keep dissenting voices quelched, and to perhaps keep those who knew the truth from talking.

You know, in retrospect, when I put these things into juxtaposition, I see a president who was extremely cautious and careful in concocting a scheme to further an agenda. And a president who literally did nothing when Andrew Card let him know that the WTC was under attack. This oddity doesn't go unnoticed.

I think the question is, what would have been the purpose once enacted? I guess that's also obviously what we're all thinking. My guess is there are so many people involved in the administrations crimes that he had to create a big threat to anyone thinking of dissenting.



Edit- Paging Freud and Oedipus...

The one thing that keeps coming back over and over again is the number of people who literally quake when Bush's name is mentioned. I'm thinking of Pelosi for one.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Overriding need"
"First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully," Yoo wrote in the memo entitled "Authority for Use of Military Force to Combat Terrorist Activity Within the United States."


Of course, there is nothing in the Constitution that mentions that rights enumerated therein are subject to "overriding needs". This was a direct attack on the Constitution that they had sworn to protect and defend.

The true "overriding need" was their need to tear down Constitutional bulwarks against the seizing of power.
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. Rationale
You can glean some motive from Cheney's statements throughout the Bush years. It is easier to control people when you control the information they receive. From the beginning of the administration, Cheney advocated for secrecy in areas as diverse as energy policy to foreign policy. Bush was right there with him. Many if not most of the top Bush officials shared the philosophy that the executive branch was the law and that there was an inherent right to do whatever they wanted. 9/11 and the "War on Terror" was just what they needed to bring in the element of fear and "national security" to bear. The target was any organization that did not promote the agenda of the administration.

Their efforts went way beyond the shaping of news. It was not limited to secrecy either. Deregulation of the news industry has concentrated control of the media into fewer and fewer hands. The first amendment took a big hit during the last 8 years.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Good stuff in this thread.
If you start with the premise that Bush's war was phony, and that includes Afghanistan, he wanted to prevent a situation like the Vietnam backlash. 9-11 was a criminal act, but Bush wanted to play Commander in Chief.

As others above have said, Bush regime thought that the press would be liberal and pacifist. I am a great fan of "1984" but I wonder if Bush thought that deeply. I think it was to quell dissent.

--imm
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. As an aside....
My Conservative friend in Mass. recently emailed me moaning how Obama wants to take away his freedoms.

That sound you heard was the spittle landing on my keyboard.
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
25. It was all planned as propaganda for War
They were going to go to War no matter what and every obstacle that got in their way was knocked down legal or not.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. they did suspend it in many ways
They fed some reporters Bush Administration propaganda and talking points. They blacklisted some reporters from White House press events. They refused to call on other reporters. They planted fake reporters to ask loaded questions. They embedded reporters with the military and questioned the patriotism of anyone who questioned the war (and had other members of the RWNM doing the same thing for them).

The point of it was to keep the media and keep the public opinion as pro-war and pro-Bush to assist their policies in passing the Congress and in assisting Bush's and Republican re-elections. Even the outing of Valerie Plame was part of this. The message: "speak out against us and we will go after your family and break laws to do it." The whole pattern of "speak out and then recant" done by the Mayberry-Machiavelli's guy, Christine Todd-Whitman, the Surgeon General, and others that I cannot recall, suggests to me that they had dirt on people too. That after these people spoke out they got some kind of threatening phone call or visit that made them backpedal.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
27. Why ? Stifle dissent and punish dissenters.
The Federalists did the same thing under the Adams administration (1796-1800) with the Alien and Sedition Acts. They shut down dissenting newspapers and prosecuted dissenters. The Jefferson administration could have done the same thing to the Federalists, but, instead, Jefferson refused to violate the 1st Amendment. He allowed Federalist newspapers to criticize him, and did not prosecute the Federalists who owned and distributed them. The Alien and Sedition Acts were allowed to expire in 1800. He, thereby, preserved the 1st Amendment, but the Republican party of today (autocratic Federalists for the most part), can't abide dissent and are still willing to stifle it.

The Bush Administration knew it would invade Iraq as soon as Bush was selected. They were just toying with what rules they'd have to "suspend" in order to get away with it, but they were determined that they would not be stopped from invading. As it turned out, a little anthrax was all they needed to get the press in line. They never had to resort to "officially" suspending the 1st Amendment.

imho ...

-Laelth
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think they wanted to fulfill the complete PNAC agenda,
establish a fascist/corporatist state and transfer the country's wealth into the hands of a few.

To do all this, they needed a populace that was driven by fear and media that acted as cheerleaders.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
29. So they could "catapult the propaganda?"
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
30. I've read many good replies, but I believe the primary reason was because they lacked faith.
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 04:36 PM by Uncle Joe
They never truly had faith in the merits of their own arguments, so how could they possibly sell them to the American People if questioning of or contrary evidence to their arguments were allowed to be made public?

They never truly had faith in their legitimacy to govern, coming to power in the insidious, dishonorable manner in which they did, so how could they trust the American People?

They never truly had faith in the Constitution; it was just a piece of paper to them, their primary goal was the attainment of power for power's sake, so how could they defend a vigorous First Amendment?

They never truly had faith in Government's role to work for the benefit of the public good and to be an honest regulator of the corporate business world, so how could they watchdog Wall Street or environmentally devastating industries?

They never truly had faith in humanity being as one entity; that all the people on Earth are in this together, they believed in that "Shining City on a Hill" mentality which separates us from the vast majority of the people on the planet that don't live there, so how could they admit the reality of global warming climate change?

In spite of all their proclamations of being a faith based Administration, they never had faith, they ruled by fear, because this was all they knew. Fear of the loss of power, fear of the loss of their "ideals;" such as they are and fear of the loss of identity; because they view them selves as apart from everyone else.

Over time, in spite of their best fear based efforts, the winds of change from the power of the American People mostly via the Internet blew their fig leaves of faith away from their royal, naked fearful bodies and today we're climbing out of that fear based hole of which they dug us in to.

Hallelujah and A-Men!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
31. I appreciate
the contributions on this thread. I hope that other DUers will add to this.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. Why?
Well because they had a whole plan to make the USA tyrannical and taking away the bill of rights was part of it. They took all they could with the patriot act but figured that the first two amendments were important enough to keep, until Katrina then they no longer liked amendment #2 either.......
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. It was about shutting down the internet
They pretty much have the MSM in their pocket so there is no real need to censor them.The few that weren't could easily be marginalized.

The internet,however,they could not control.The internet allows the citizens to exercise ALL of the rights in the first amendment.And that is exactly what we have done.To their detriment.

I bet they wish they had shut down the nets.I don't think they realized what a potent force it would become in bringing them down.They probably figured it was too important for commerce and that shutting it down would be too dispuptive for business and cut into profits.
That and the fact that it is fairly useful for spying on citizens.

Something else to think about-What ever happened to the Internet Version 2 idea that was floating around a few years ago ?
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. One more thing I will add.
I believe that Cheney was behind a lot of it with his minions: Rumsfeld, Yoo, Addington,etc. He had been plotting since the Nixon WH to get back the executive power he thought was lost. His daughter Liz even wrote a college paper on it.
Cheney inserted himself in every level of government, and in every area. He even went to meetings that were only for Senators and they didn't have the balls to kick him out. He knew where all the levers were and how to use them.
He was ruthless, and he didn't care.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
36. Authoritarian Ideology with various goals - curtailing dissent
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 09:19 PM by Emit
Remaking the middle east, political realignment including marginalizing the left with goal of long-term (permanent?) Republican majority, catering to corporatism - privatization, unfettered capitalism, reinforcing the religious right (and using them, too) ... the list goes on and on but off the top of my head, those are a few.

Here's an interesting overview with regard to Rove, for example. It depicts Rove as a classic authoritarian, imo. (I should also interject here that in relation to the family model, which involves similar constructs concerning authoritarian versus authoritative styles, authoritative parenting includes the directing a child’s activities, using a rational manner and approach and encouraging verbal give and take. It has been proven to be a more effective way of parenting. I believe the same may hold true for running a country - I have said before that Right Wing Authoritarians have no business trying to run a democratic republic, for obvious reasons, lol.)

Excerpts from The Rove Presidency
~snip~

One of the goals of any ambitious president is to create a governing coalition just as Roosevelt did, one that long outlasts your presidency. It’s the biggest thing you can aim for, and only a few presidents have achieved it. As the person with the long-term vision in the Bush administration, and with no lack of ambition either, Rove had thought long and hard about achieving this goal before ever arriving in the White House, and he has pursued it more aggressively than anyone else.

~snip~

Fifty years ago, political scientists developed what is known as realignment theory—the idea that a handful of elections in the nation’s history mattered more than the others because they created “sharp and durable” changes in the polity that lasted for decades. ... First, party loyalty must be sufficiently weak to allow for a major shift—the electorate, as the political scientist Paul Allen Beck has put it, must be “ripe for realignment.” The other condition is that the nation must undergo some sort of triggering event, often what Beck calls a “societal trauma”—the ravaging depressions of the 1890s and 1930s, for instance, or the North-South conflict of the 1850s and ’60s that ended in civil war. It’s important to have both. Depressions and wars throughout American history have had no realigning consequence because the electorate wasn’t primed for one, just as periods of electoral unrest have passed without a realignment for lack of a catalyzing event.

Before he ever came to the White House, Rove fervently believed that the country was on the verge of another great shift. ...

~snip~

That September 11 was both a turning point for the Bush administration and an event that would change the course of American history was immediately clear. It was also clear, if less widely appreciated, that the attacks were the type of event that can instantly set off a great shifting of the geological strata of American politics. In a coincidence of epic dimensions, 9/11 provided, just when Rove needed it, the historical lever missing until then. He had been presented with exactly the sort of “societal trauma” that makes realignment possible, and with it a fresh chance to pursue his goal. Bob Woodward’s trilogy on the Bush White House makes clear how neoconservatives in the administration recognized that 9/11 gave them the opening they’d long desired to forcefully remake the Middle East. Rove recognized the same opening.

~snip~

Rove’s greatest shortcoming was not in conceptualizing policies but in failing to understand the process of getting them implemented, a weakness he never seems to have recognized in himself. It’s startling that someone who gave so much thought to redirecting the powers of government evinced so little interest in understanding how it operates. Perhaps because he had never worked in government—or maybe because his standing rested upon his relationship with a single superior—he was often ineffective at bringing into being anything that required more than a presidential signature.

~snip~

Of the five policies in his realignment vision, Social Security and immigration failed outright; medical-savings accounts and the faith-based program wound up as small, face-saving initiatives after the original ambitions collapsed; and the lone success, No Child Left Behind, looks increasingly jeopardized as it comes up for renewal in Congress this year, a victim of Bush’s unpopularity.

~snip~

To understand Rove’s record, it’s useful to think of the disaster as being divided into foreign and domestic components. Rove had little say in foreign policy. Dick Cheney understood from decades of government experience how to engineer a war he’d pressed for, and still the administration failed to reshape the Middle East. More than anyone outside the Oval Office, Rove was responsible for much of what went wrong on the domestic front—partly because he had never served in government, and he lacked Cheney’s skill at manipulating it. Both men came in believing they had superior insights into history and theoretical underpinnings so strong that their ideas would prevail. But neither man understood how to see them through, and so both failed.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200709/karl-rove
~~~~

As a quick reference, here is a synopsis of Right-wing authoritarians. For more detail, I would direct readers to Altemeyer's website, where he has posted, free of charge, his book, "The Authoritarians": http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

According to research by Altemeyer, right-wing authoritarians tend to exhibit cognitive errors and symptoms of faulty reasoning. Specifically, they are more likely to make incorrect inferences from evidence and to hold contradictory ideas that result from compartmentalized thinking. They are also more likely to uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs, and they are less likely to acknowledge their own limitations.<10> Nevertheless, there is no connection between authoritarianism and either low or high intelligence. In terms of the five factor model of personality, authoritarians generally score lower on openness to experience and slightly higher on conscientiousness.<11>

Altemeyer suggested that authoritarian politicians are more likely to be in the Conservative or Reform party in Canada, or the Republican Party in the United States. They generally have a conservative economic philosophy, are highly nationalistic, oppose abortion, support capital punishment, oppose gun control legislation, and do not value social equality.<12> The RWA scale reliably correlates with political party affiliation, reactions to Watergate, pro-capitalist attitudes, religious orthodoxy, and acceptance of covert governmental activities such as illegal wiretaps.<13> Although authoritarianism is correlated with conservative political ideology, not all authoritarians are conservative, and not all conservatives are authoritarian. It is also worth noting that many authoritarians have no interest in politics.

Authoritarians are generally more favorable to punishment and control than personal freedom and diversity. For example, they are more willing to suspend constitutional guarantees of liberty such as the Bill of Rights. They are more likely to advocate strict, punitive sentences for criminals,<14> and they report that they obtain personal satisfaction from punishing such people. They tend to be ethnocentric and prejudiced against racial and ethnic minorities,<15> and homosexuals.<16>

In roleplaying situations, authoritarians tend to seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive instead of cooperative. In a study by Altemeyer, 68 authoritarians played a three hour simulation of the earth's future entitled the Global Challenge Game. Unlike a comparison game played by individuals with low RWA scores, the simulation by authoritarians became highly militarized and eventually entered the stage of nuclear war. By the end of the high RWA game, the entire population of the earth was declared dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

Edited to add the connection I was attempting to make, lol! Readers may recall that Bush & Co. were big on the "we create our own reality" meme because, in fact, to (attempt to) implement their policies, they needed to create their own reality - it was like taking short cuts, since they lacked the ability to actually build consensus. Suspending Amendment 1/freedom of the press curtails dissenting opinions - very Orwellian, imho. IIRC, Cheney, Rove, et al have long history of being angered by the Vietnam protests - (that was one of Cheney's first assignments was to spy on Vietnam War protesters, or something to that effect). They perceived the dissenting voices contributed to failure - a very Right Wing Authoritarian viewpoint.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?ex=1255665600&en=890a96189e162076&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
37. Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003; Section 102, has always
stuck in my mind.

It makes news-gathering illegal. I've always wondered if this has been at least a partial explanation, other than complicity, for the lack of truth coming from the 'media'.

Not sure this is helpful, but you never know.

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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
38. Power. To cover up their greed.
Target - anyone who would tell the truth about what they were trying to do. Dan Rather comes to mind but I am sure there were other journalists who bit the dust over the past 8 years or were threatened with losing their job and never working again if they didn't play along with what they were told to do. And are the sticks they used on the media still being applied?

They had NO control over the bloggers. Haha. I think that fact is what saved us from a worse fate than what we are experiencing now. They may have considered it but how would they contain the bloggers? Turn off the Internet? Haha. Not likely without causing a global meltdown in protests. Not to mention what it would have done to the Internet based economy meltdown that would have also ensued. Their power and greed would only take them so far. They may have considered it but the Truth would have been available elsewhere.

I am more interested in the details of your 'small project'? :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Sure.
My little project has two, equally important parts.

The first is to promote a discussion thread that is of the high quality that DU is capable of. This is because I think that DU is the most valuable progressive/liberal site on the internet, and I think that the people who respond to an OP such as this tend to be the best that the forum offers.

The second part is to use parts of the opinions expressed in this thread, in my communications with two or more people in elected office in Washington, DC, in an on-going effort to lobby for the prosecution of members of the Bush-Cheney administration.

I anticipate a follow-up OP/thread, probably to start Friday morning, where I will include my own point of view. It will include some information that I believe is directly related to the topic in this OP/thread, but which may take the discussion a step or two further. And who knows? Perhaps it will stimulate thought on the part of some of the people -- DUers and "lurkers" -- to consider what was really happening in the past eight years in this country.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. If DU is the best progressive/liberal site on the net,
it's because of you and few other tremendously gifted contributers on here. I was hoping you would say you had someone to pass this on to who could get this to move off square one in DC. Whatever we can do to help, we are here for that. Whatever you need, Mr. Waterman.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
39. we,ve effectively already lost the freedom of the press.
the mainstream media lies and distorts and omits and revises constantly. they control the overall view of a great majority of americans to the benefit of the corporate state.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
40. To control the message...in turn, control the people
and anyone who stands in your way becomes a target.


Recall how they used planted & paid (Armstrong) mouthpieces to push their agenda.

Pentagon analysts were also used to push the Bush WH thinking. Propaganda was used against the American people - not just military targets. Though it could be said that Americans became the military target....and not just Americans - "allies" as well.

By controlling what gets printed or aired, you control how people think - because you control the information they receive by which to form an opinion.

The facts become what you say they are...

The whole "Un-American' and "unpatriotic" - the "you're either with us or against us" is meant to intimidate and silence - and you must silence your opposition to control the message...and if you can't just shoot them, you have to turn people against them. So you demonize them ...and people will be less inclined to support the opposition....who is now viewed as "the enemy"

Ari saying people should be careful what they say...that's a threat. Shut up or we'll get you.

It went well beyond just being a plan...you slow boil, so to speak....that way you get the backing of the people for your actions. .

Not all the people...but enough vocal and loud people to claim it's the people's will.

And it's not exactly hard to manufacture the appearance of the people's will. Inundate the news - print, TV, radio - with well placed mouthpieces and it looks as if a lot of people think a certain way.

And golly, it sure helps to have a disaster to play off...scared people are dangerous...to themselves and others.





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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Not only threats but examples have been made.
How many people had mysterious small plan crashes? And last summer, Kit Bond differed on a bill from his fellow Republicans and was almost run down on a sidewalk by an 'unknown' driver.

And that whistleblower just a few weeks ago - another small plane crash but a new administration. The shadow govt is continuing.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
41. The same reason Adams signed the Alien and Sedition Acts.
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 08:21 AM by rug
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chollybocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
45. They DID suspend the Amendment.
And the complete list of those spied on (upon?) will probably never be known.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
46. To see how much the American people will put up with.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. And the Fourth Amendment.
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 09:30 PM by Gregorian
I don't think we can take one factor in this equation by itself. If you saw the author who works with Harper's on Olbermann's show tonight, he said that even though we were to believe that these changes to the Bill of Rights only affected a minority of people, they really applied to all of us. And, as Keith pointed out, if one were a citizen, and had been taken into custody (for whatever reason), and one wanted to prove their citizenship, they could have been prevented from doing so. And further, they could have literally been detained, and tortured, by Bush, without any ability to defend themselves. In other words, these changes did in fact affect all Americans. Not just enemy combatants or illegal immigrants.

I think it's extremely important to determine whether the Bush administration actually did have more sinister or sweeping plans than appear by face value. And this should be of great concern to all citizens, of any political persuasion, given that any future administration could exercise this kind of extra constitutional behavior.

And part of the reasoning behind this kind of discovery should be to remedy any loopholes that allow for such abuses.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
48. There's situations like Siegelman.
He was tossed into solitary confinement, at what appears to be the whim of Rove and Bush. I'm guessing that an effective repeal of the First Amendment could conceivably keep him from publicly talking about what he thinks happened, even if he did manage to get out of prison.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
49. I think it's interesting how the right lambastes the "liberal media"
it's ALWAYS portrayed as the "liberal media" by anyone on the right: presidents, senators... all the way to Rush Limbaugh. Countless peer reviewed studies document the medias right-leaning bias yet there's a relentless verbal paradigm from the right that the media is "left".

I believe that the Bush Admin sought to exploit the patriotic fervor of Americans after 9-11. The drumbeat of "liberal media" had already propagandized millions so "shutting" it down as a patriotic action wouldn't have been so suspicious.

When it was discovered that they needn't take such draconian measures - that the media was more than willing to do a lapdance for the Admin on every single issue - the plan was scrapped.

Rogue reporters like Arnette, Rather etc. were taken out individually instead of an all out assault on the First Amendment.

I also find it fascinating that in the face of even MORE studies demonstrating the media's right-ward tilt, we see more bloviating from the right about the media's left-leaning tilt (sic). There's a constant drumbeat there. It's obviously never going to go away.

What do the Republicans gain by persisting with this? Another question for another thread but one that I believe is related....
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
50. I realize this is very basic but in general terms I suspect ...
The thinking was that the old USSR was able to hold onto power primarily by 'controlling' information available to the citizens and by disseminating 'disinformation' to manipulate the populace as needed.

I think the suspension of the 1st Admendment had as much to do with the 'dissemination of disinformation' in the US as denying legitimate members of the press access.

This would also apply to 'free speech' claims in that you could silence citizens by 'sweeping them up for custodial interrogation.' Remember that the ability to 'chill' free speech is much more effective than having to pick up every speaker you do not like.

Just a couple of ideas .... and I for one do not believe these memos were drafted for hypothetical situations --but rather were drafted as CYA for specific activities that were ongoing or intended in the near future.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
51. they had an obsession with the Lincoln administration and heard he had done it during the war
(i am ashamed to smear your noble thread with such a cheap yuck)..
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
52. the whole purpose of that administration was robbery. All else was diversion
and if they controlled the press/media, they controlled the message. They put out all terror all the time, when they were actually robbing the nation blind.

Sorry, but I don't see them as hung up on ideology, just greed.
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