Obesity is far more complex than some folks think

[nadinbrzezinski]

Disclaimer, if you think obese people are obese because of a moral failing, stop readying now at the risk of having your puritan thinking challenged

Well, well, every so often we have the bash the fatties threads, and those come in many forms, so why don't why we try to examine what is really going on here? After all, if it was as simple as stop eating as much and exercise more... we'd have the problem licked by now, wouldn't you think? Hell, we'd have an incredible success rates with insert diet program here. We don't... so what is going on?

Well the first thing many of the let's judge them fatties people should learn is that we have a silent epidemic in this country, especially among women, and that is low thyroid function

Here is one of the many studies done over the last twenty years

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/epidem.htm

Now what does these studies show? That women, for whatever reason, we think is something in the water, literally, have had a decrease in thyroid function. In English this means that if your thyroid is low, you gain weight, very easily, even when eating a normal amount of calories

There is more... Diabetes is increasing at astounding rates

Diabetics have a hell of a time loosing weight, and we have no idea if this increase is related to obesity, or diabetes is leading to it, the ever so popular chicken and egg problem. Especially since the side effect of many a medication in the US is weight gain, and some meds have been directly linked to diabetes in otherwise healthy individuals with no family history, aka the genes are not there.

Of course there is the ethnic component and people of Native American, African American American or Asian backgrounds have a better chance of developing the disease... by the way, Diabetes is at astronomic rates of growth world wide, regardless of lifestyle... and there is this little component in diet called additives

Of course there are the elements of genetics. When you look at family histories of the chronically obese you may find a tendency to big bones, one euphemism to being big, aka overweight. You may or may not be familiar with the fat gene...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1647517.ece

Perhaps you are not aware of the set point theory

http://www.mirror-mirror.org/set.htm

Or other details regarding this problem

And of course there is the addiction component, and how people react to pleasurable activities and the human brain...

As you can see, being fat is far more complex than just eating less and exercising more

If it was that simple, we'd have the problem licked

And if you read this far, I hope the information will help you in accepting that overweight people are not just overweight because they like to be, or somehow are moral failures... just like alcoholics are not just drunks, and druggies just addicts that can stop at the drop of the hat.

[InvisibleTouch]

1. There's a large element of metabolic damage in obesity, IMO.

And I would implicate all the additives in our foods, especially processed foods, as well as environmental toxins. It's surely no stretch to imagine that a constant low-level exposure to toxins and irritants could damage the thyroid gland and play havoc with the metabolic set-point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. For women., especially in the western part of the US

is an additive that is added to gasoline and has leached into the water supply... that is the culprit... they think

[galloglas]

77. If so

why are not all affected equally?

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. That is one of the quesitons they are asking

but the increase in rates is outside any norm that we are familiar with

Why it is called an epydemic

[kiva]

95. This is interesting,

do you have some more info or a link for this? Living in the west, I'd like to read more.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Here you go

http://www.ryandrum.com/thyroidpart1.htm

http://www.junkscience.com/news3/newsday2.html

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

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[cliffordu]

8. Yep.

[WolverineDG]

9. Truly spoken by someone who has never ever ever followed the WW plan religiously

exercising at least one hour every day, and still not lose one pound in an entire month.

dg

[cliffordu]

16. Calories cannot be stored as fat unless they are ingested.

Period.

Period.

Period.

If your body refuses to do anything with calories except store them as fat, teach your body to burn fat with long steady exercise.

And learn to eat stuff that is more difficult for your body to store as fat.


If you need to take a thyroid drug do so.

Read up on extreme reduced calorie living.

[WolverineDG]

93. So I should starve to death?

Good bye to you too.

dg

[cliffordu]

103. As long as you have body fat availble to burn, you cannot starve to death

Period

Period

Period

[Political Heretic]

121. But its not exactly "healthy" either.

A dramatic decrease in nutritional intake can cause all kinds of other problems, even while you're burning those fat cells.

[cliffordu]

140. Who said anything about dramatic?

You can maximize real nutrients needed for cellular maintenenance and general health while reducing overall calories....you just might have to toss the entire USDA food pyramid and all the diets in the universe and change everything you believe a what makes up a healthy menu.....

The last time I looked at the food pyramid they were stll pushing what amounted to a farm diet...for people wo work as hard as an NFL linebacker all their lives and die of heart failure at 45 or 50.

My blood pressure is rising so I have to go back on a version of the paleo diet with no salt, coffee...no sausage or bacon...and go back to riding my bicycle for a couple hours a day real hard to control it.

No more pizza of any stripe is going to suck, but I gotta do what I gotta do.....


Best of luck....

[Political Heretic]

153. The poster you were responding to did.

[Maru Kitteh]

YOU did.

"Read up on extreme reduced calorie living.

Does extreme not equal dramatic for you?

[cliffordu]

187. Dramatic reduction == sudden....

The extremely low calorie folks are mostly interested in longevity.....

And they don't do it without a physicians care...

So they don't do it in a dramatic fashion.

A google follow through would have illuminated that point, but you were too busy splitting hairs and obfuscating..

Cast thy aspertions elswhere, or address my point.....

[Maru Kitteh]

215. I was pointing out your obvious contradiction of yourself, that is all.

Trying to have your cake and eat to, ya' know?

Your attempt to take the conversation off topic with the divergent and only peripherally related discussion of an eXtreme low-calorie lifestyle is of no interest to me and frankly useless to the discussion at hand.

[cliffordu]

216. You mean like you are now??

I didn't contradict myself, sparky.

Your lack of interest is self evident.

[TuxedoKat]

259. CRON

CRON -- Calorically Restricted Optimal Nutrition --very interesting but so hard to follow, at least for me. Do you follow it? Just recently a study came out that showed that not all rats benefitted from CRON with longer lifespans.

I would still like to do modified CRON, not extreme CRON, but am trying to just eat as healthy as possible first while losing weight slowly, and then implement CRON for maintenance. In the meantime I take my antioxicdants and a few other supplements and hope that will count for longevity.

[billyoc]

22. This WW plan you speak of may not be a plan that works for all people.

[Stephanie]

42. WW is essentially a simpler means of counting calories

Along with guidelines to increase fiber in the diet. I have a friend who lost 80 pounds on it.

[WolverineDG]

92. Yeah, well I did too

but it was a struggle.

dg

[WolverineDG]

91. Nice try

but sorry, you're still a loser.

dg

[billyoc]

158. Because I think WW might not work for everyone?

I'm a loser for that? :rofl:

[mahina]

11. I should probably leave this alone,

since you've made your point of view very clear.

I used to think fat people were weak and just ate too many donuts etc. I used to be an aerobics teacher, my ex was a lifeguard.

My thyroid stopped working almost completely, have to take 175 mcg of synthroid now. That's like a triple dose for most low thyroid people. Nobody really understands the complex interplay of hormones and obesity. Fat is not bilogically intert- it makes lots of hormones too. You should try it sometime. Maybe you will.

But meanwhile, enjoy your judgment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Trust me, he\she may

see that silent epydemic... yes I do take zynthroid these days too

[billyoc]

23. I make no judgement, and arithmetic supports my statement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. So tell me oh wise one, why haven't we liclked this problem?

failure rates for diets is closer to 90% by the by

[billyoc]

39. Personally, I haven't "licked the problem" because I don't put the effort into it.

I don't consider it that important a problem.

[Political Heretic]

123. Arithmatic doesn't support your statement when you leave out numerous variables.

What you say is technically true but ignores so much context that it almost becomes meaningless.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5162825&mesg_id=5163413

[billyoc]

156. Alright, I'll concede that and admit that I've not tried to take all the variables into account.

[Political Heretic]

165. Cool!

:hi:

[Duke Newcombe]

168. Thanks for admitting that much...

unfortunately, the rest of the "Math Brigade" haven't gotten the memo that the human body isn't a single entrypoint closed system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. Thank you

[Skidmore]

210. Understand you completely.

I was always a size 7 or 9 until around age 39, then I started gaining weight at rapid rate and with no changes in my diet or activity level. Well, after many scoldings by my physician and gynecologist over the years, I just shut down on discussing weight. It wasn't until I was in my early fifties and I started gagging on even the softest of food and water plus having severe problems with sleep that they started paying attention. I was the one who finally discovered the lump in my neck. I had thyroid cancer. Now I have no thyroid and must take synthroid too. Even now without the thyroid and on a steady dose of synthroid, the pounds just don't come off easy and, frankly, I'm beyond caring if they do anymore.

[droidamus2]

14. Simplistic at best

Though on the surface your statement makes some sophistic sense it is still very simplistic as the main OP points out. What if a person is eating the 'recommended' daily allotment of calories, doing the exercise and still gaining weight. Sure they could exercise more but that requires that they intake more calories to support the workout. They could comsume less up to a point but then they aren't taking in enough to support healthy living. It is easy for those that enjoy exercise, lead active lives, can eat what they want and not gain a pound (I was that way until I hit about 30 and am not massively overweight but could stand to lose some) to point fingers and say its a simple equation. As this OP pointed out it isn't as simple as it sounds.

[billyoc]

29. Gaining weight while eating the recommended amount is an indictment of the recommendation,

not the eater.

Blindly following recommendations is another matter.

[Juche]

37. Find a study where people can voluntarily limit calories, lose weight and keep it off

I have never seen an apologist for our culture's moral panic about fat do that. The basic premise of your arugment (fat people could stop being fat permanently if they really wanted to by eating less and exercising more) has been disproven in every scientific study devoted to it.


Find me a legit study that says fat people can

Lose large amounts of weight with eating less and exercising more
Keep it off for at least 5 years



The only exception I know of is children. Supposedly children's brains are a bit more plastic, and some of them may actually be able to keep the weight off. But for adults, short of surgery or drugs nothing works for long term weight loss.

[billyoc]

43. I never said fat people can become skinny people, and I don't believe that they can.

I don't see what I might have said that would give you that impression, either.

[Pavulon]

47. Sure it does, here is a picture!

True story. Little Overweight in high school. Joined the army. No more excess weight. Why, Because I was always running somewhere. Massive amounts of exercise and a shitty diet, lots of beer. Good weight, bad health.

Left the army, gained weight at a desk job. Got tired of it and now ride a bike 2 hours a day 3 days a week. Switched from beer to wine and dont eat food that comes in packages. Farmers market is a good thing.

Dropped weight years ago, still off. OP mentions medical problems. Which are legit but not part of the lifestyle choices that make many people fat. However being overweight is bad for your health. Overweight meaning obese, not a little soft.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Show me a study, not your personal experience

a STUDY

By the way you are in the 5% who manage to keep it off, that is the success rates of diets across the US

5%, read it again, FIVE PERCENT

[Pavulon]

63. EXERCISE and DIET

do not require a study to prove that if you loose 5 liters of blood you will die. It is simple for HEALTHY people. Mixing in medical conditions is a poor way to argue. Thyroid problems are treatable and the impact from that disorder is not a lifestyle issue.

The problem with diets is that people stop them. If you actually modify you behavior you will loose weight.

The army enforced it with regs that basically said you could be tossed for not meeting basic physical conditioning requirements.

Given the same motivation many people would loose weight. I would get up and run more if I knew someone was going to scream at me or throw me on the floor if i did not feel like it.

You can google any number of studies from the lancet or jama that cover this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. SHow me a SCIENTIFIC STUDY

that is all I ask

Otherwise you are also having a problem with the science

WHile diet and exercise are part of the solution they are not WHOLY the solution any longer

Get it now?

It is not that simple

If it was, our failure rates would be far lower than 95% percent

There is this about insanity is doing only what has not worked before, and that is exactly what you are asking

[Pavulon]

84. Linky..

there are plenty more on jama but they require a subscription and do not allow reposting. Being overweight is basically a personal choice. It is not a disease, but does cause systemic problems.

You are playing fast and loose with your position. What do you think the solution is? A pill from GSK to defeat the system rather than using the system to correct its self? I can tell you that that product would be very popular.

in conclusion, diets that are successful in causing weight loss can emphasize a range of fat, protein, and carbohydrate compositions that have beneficial effects on risk factors for cardiovascular disease and diabetes.29,40 Such diets can also be tailored to individual patients on the basis of their personal and cultural preferences and may therefore have the best chance for long-term success.

Supported by grants from the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (HL073286) and the General Clinical Research Center, National Institutes of Health (RR-02635).

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/9/859

[Juche]

94. Weight loss is not the same as weight maintenance

Losing weight is not horribly hard, but the success record for weight maintenance using lifestyle alone is very bad.

If a solution stops working after 2-5 years and leaves you worse than you were before it is not a solution.

http://www.physorg.com/news94906931.html

"You can initially lose 5 to 10 percent of your weight on any number of diets, but then the weight comes back," said Traci Mann, UCLA associate professor of psychology and lead author of the study. "We found that the majority of people regained all the weight, plus more. Sustained weight loss was found only in a small minority of participants, while complete weight regain was found in the majority. Diets do not lead to sustained weight loss or health benefits for the majority of people."

Mann and her co-authors conducted the most comprehensive and rigorous analysis of diet studies, analyzing 31 long-term studies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. As pointed above, confusing weight loss anybody can do this really

with weight maintainance

Come back with a study on weight maintainance

AKA keeping it off, over five years, which is the standard

[Pavulon]

113. Christ almighty, you link to jama or nejm

and support your position. Not news sites. That article cross referenced 30 studies.

This is quite simple. Getting up to run sucks. Eating tuna fish instead of mcdonalds for lunch sucks. But they suck less than death.

Obesity causes death. Obesity is dealt with by healthy people by modification of diet and lifestyle.

Here is a simple article. Death reduced in group that loses weight. You are chasing the one person who lives after shooting themselves in the temple with a .45 Sure it happens.

Generally it just kills you. This is not a moon shot.

What is your position? Do you think the GB is first resort, waiting for the miracle pill?

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/357/8/753
gastric bypass (surgical exercise and diet) long term mortality
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/351/26/2683

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/18/1941

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. GB is only apropriate in severely obese people defined by BMI

and other factors

For that you need to see a bariatric specialist

That actually is a fairly low number of candidates

Happy now?

And do link to studies with weight maintainace, that last beyond five years, that is the standard

[Pavulon]

125. Linked

you will need to purchase nejm or go to the library to get it. They do have a free trial. The last link is to their long term study. In general severely obese people are at more risk for secondary disorders. GB is a more common choice now.

I have gone out of my way to be polite and clear. This is not a personal thing. It is just a medical discussion.

Balance works for most people. For those it does not work for other issues may be at work.

This long term shows the best result from surgery but results from nonsurgical methods over many years. Their sample is made up of very overweight people, not people in the normal range who are slightly overweight.
http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v27/n10/full/0802394a.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. If you think I haven't been polite so be it

fact is that I have stated throughout that this is a MEDICAL issue, so in the end we agree, funny ain't it

That said lap band has still requirements

Not just anybody qualifies, and we are talking of two slighly different populations as well

[Pavulon]

135. Sure it is medical

self inflicted gunshot is medical. It may be an accident, or suicide. Weight can be caused by and cause many problems. It is not perfectly simple, but is not brain cancer complicated.

Behavior can lead to gunshot or obesity. Some cases are a choice, some are not. The result is the same.

Many people do not make basic efforts towards health. Many problems could be avoided with basic steps.

EDIT: clarity

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. And that is the point... it is far more complicated than just

saying ins and outs

By the way, brother is a doctor, top in his field, sis is a dietitian and I a former medic... so it is not like we are ignorant of these issues

Just like all epidemological problems they have various etyologies (reasons for being) and in fact, various solutions

As I said, 95% of the population life style alone will not do it...

And trust me I wish it did

[Political Heretic]

127. You don't live longer,it just feels longer.

I'm not on board with this new popular fad emerging as a reaction to our recent trend of increased weight in America.

Some modest diet and exercise is good. And if you want to go all fanatic and eat nothing but 2 grams of weeds a day and deny yourself every earthly pleasure so you look like some body builder - great! If that's your think go for it!

But I prefer moderation. Foods are wonderful! And the community and fellowship that comes with a culture of shared meals and celebration is a great thing. I'll take a little exercise a few times a week and some moderate personal responsibility for food intake and settle for "soft" but not obese and be happy with my life, rather than become a fanatic and deny myself all wordly pleasures so I can leave a few years longer in bleakness.

[Pavulon]

136. Agree

it is all about balance.

[Scout]

227. if i have to exercise 2 hours a day, and eat a vegan diet, i don't want to live longer

i'd rather enjoy my life and my food even if i don't have as many years to do it.

i don't want to just exist longer... :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. I changed my outlook on exercise

exercise is walking to the kitchen, going to get the groceries, shopping for clothes, and yes even stepping on my elliptical

By that math I do far more than just two hours a day

:-)

And it is not dreaded

As to food.. I eat a balanced diet and mostly listen to my body and what it wants

We are having meat today (happy parrots, they love it), and vegies and some taters, I will even open a can of beans for myself, since I love them

I still lost oodles of weight, been able to maintain for two years, and I think I am on the plateau I am, about 20 pounds over my ideal weight, since I have hit my set point

I should be able to change that, but only with work and time

Oh and I am much healthier now

[Scout]

225. it's LOSE weight, not LOOSE it

and you still have not produced a study that proves what you claim.

[Juche]

Good

But studies have shown lifestyle changes only work for a small minority, maybe 1-5%. It is not a realistic cure for the population as a whole.

[Pavulon]

72. If it is not medical, it is motivation.

it is easier and cheaper not to eat a healthy diet. It is easier to not run or ride when it is cold or raining.

Your term cure implies a condition. Thyroid disorders are medical disorders.

Not adhering to a healthy diet and physical conditioning regimen is not a medical condition, it is a choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. What part of low thyroid function leads to weight gain

regardless of caloric imput are you purposely missing?

[Pavulon]

86. So are talking about thyroid patients or the obese in general

you have a subset of people whose weight gain is CAUSED by a medical disorder. Then you have a set of people whose WEIGHT DIRECTLY causes disease. Diabetes rates can be directly linked to weight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Both of which are at astronomic rates of growth

as pointed alrady many times, maintainaince is part of the issue, failure rates are at 95% for lifestyle choices only

You are in the five percent, count your blessings

[Scout]

226. you don't get diabetes because you are fat....

your inability to keep weight OFF is the first symptom of Type II diabetes.

lazy doctors just think "you're fat" is the diagnosis for all your problems, and therefore "lose weight" must be the cure.

[diamidue]

175. I have low thyroid

and take Cytomel.

I'm still waiting to gain weight. I would kill to gain some weight.

Yes, low thyroid function CAN lead, and often does lead, to weight gain. But many others of us with the condition simply do not gain weight.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

273. Synthroid and Cytomel are NOT providing what your thyroid gland would.

My doctor has tried to put me on Thyroxine (Synthroid) which is T4 only.

I have taken Armour Thyroid since I was ten years old. That was several decades ago.

I have argued with many doctors over this. Armour has T1, T2, T3, T4 and T5 in it.

Armour has BOTH T3 and T4. Synthroid is T4. When they put me on T4 only, I got cold feet again and insisted they switch me back to Armour. A lot of docs are prejudiced against Armour.

I also recently found out that you can get bio-identical thyroid from a compounding pharmacy. Have not taken it yet, though.

[Juche]

82. So is abstinence, it is a choice too

Abstinence and choosing not to be abstinent is a choice, but it doesn't work as a medical intervention anymore than diet and exercise. Thats why most people outside the religious right have given up on it as a way to combat unwanted pregnancy and STDs. Abstinence combined with other interventions will work, but alone it is almost totally ineffective. It took society and the medical community a long time to accept it, but after they did we started making progress.

Same with lifestyle choices. Alone they won't work to combat obesity. Combined with medication people may be able to lose 10-15% of bodyweight and keep it off. Combined with surgery people can lose 40%+ of weight and keep it off.

Abstinence, like lifestyle changes, only works when you are being forced to do them by someone else or by an environment that won't allow anything else, and they generally stop working after you stop being forced to do them. Virtually nobody can sustain them using willpower, and they do not work as medical interventions.

[Pavulon]

88. Genetic design..

it is a scientific fact that you will not get std's if you dont fuck around. However the human is designed to fuck around. That is your genetic reason for being here. But in a way this is as simple as wearing a rubber.

Your body is DESIGNED to work, not sit on its ass behind a computer. It is not designed to take in 12 beers a day, not designed to deal with raw sugars, ultra high carb loads or other modern diet contents. It is a sophisticated system and elegant machine. It is a biochemical fact that if a otherwise healthy person reduces caloric intake and increases the energy they expend they will lose body mass.

Yes GSK will make a fortune selling a pill that defeats the normal procedure to loose weight. That could have a side effect of death and people would still take it. It is the path of least resistance.

[Juche]

97. The human is designed to not die of famine too

We have evolved to not die in famine. There is no difference between the failure of abstinence and the failure or diet and exercise. That is why medical interventions that encourage people to stop having sex (abstinence) and to engage in voluntary famine (diet and exercise) fail 99% of the time and only work when you are being forced by someone or something outside yourself to do them.

And diet and exercise is the same as famine. You are denying your body the fuel it feels it needs to do its job, so it resorts to auto-cannabalism. There is no evidence that reasonable lifestlye changes will result in sustained weight loss.

I'm honestly not sure where the stubborn mental blocks on this subject come from. That someone could so quickly agree that abstinence is a failure then apply the same logic to obesity is really weird. Its like rejecting the drug war on heroin by pointing out that it just drives it underground and fuels crime, but turning around and supporting the drug war on cocaine.

[Pavulon]

106. This is really simple

you can accept it or not. If you are morbidly obese you are shortening your life. You are increasing the chance that you get you limbs cut off and die a miserable death. There are a litany of diseases that come from obesity. Nevermind the aspect of not wanting to pay for fat people's diseases incurred by a lifestyle choice. That is another topic.

This is not about people who have medical conditions that cause weight gain, this is about people who are significantly overweight by choice.

A little overweight is not the issue here. A little gut or flab is not going to kill you.

I know lots of doctors, some overweight. They ALL agree that a healthy diet and exercise are good for you.

You can make all the crazy comparisons you want. They are not logically sound.

This is about balance. If you are a lineman for a power company you expend more energy than a programmer. The person who balances their system with a good diet and exercise will maintain body weight in the acceptable range. Both can make choices that will make them overweight.

Balance is easier than a pill or a stapled stomach.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. And here is the puritan thinking they are overweight because of choice

you are wrong, go read the work specialist in the field have done

You'd be amazed at the complexity of the issue... diet is but a small element of it

[Juche]

There is no evidence that people can lose large amounts of weight and keep it off

I really don't know why you aren't addressing that. You are saying if peopel wanted to, they could stop being fat.

Go find me evidence that shows a success rate higher than 10% for getting people to lose large amounts of weight (at least 10% of bodyweight) and keep it off for more than 5 years. If people can stop being fat, find me a study where huge numbers of fat people selected at random from the population lose large amounts of weight and keep it off long term.

I personally think it is just a side effect of living in a country as intolerant to bodyfat as ours. I guess it is better to believe in a false solution than to admit that we don't know how to control something that scares us. Throughout history people have blamed sin and moral failings for problems they couldn't control, especially disease and natural disasters. I guess it gives a sense of control and helps solidity the social order. The flooding in New Orleans was blamed on tolerance to gays. Its a silly explanation, but its better than admitting that we don't know. In a society as frightened by bodyfat as ours that has no true mainstream treatments I'm not surprised that people promote solutions that don't work and are blind to all the evidence that shows they don't work. Its easier than admitting we can't control or stop it very well.

You can accept what I'm going to say or not, but you will not be able to refute it.


The failure rate for voluntarily induced lifestyle changes in combatting obesity is 95-99%. Once the option to become obese (via environmental changes that encourage high calorie foods and sedentary lifestyles) becomes realistic, obesity rates skyrocket in every country and culture on earth and we are unable to stop it. People cannot violate the programming installed in them via 3.8 billion by using willpower. Aside from a tiny, tiny minority the only way to lose weight and keep it off is to be forced to do it. Either via surgery or via an environment that forces you to eat less and exercise more. And once the environment goes lax, people gain the weight back. And I don't see people supporting turning the US into a giant permanent boot camp to fight the obesity epidemic.

The only effective treatment for adults as of 2009 is medication for the mildly overweight and surgery for the obese. It'll probably be 30 years before we can treat obesity the same way we treat hypertension, with a laundry list of treatments that have been proven to work in studies, that are cheap and that are safe.

[Pavulon]

131. Sure there is

http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v27/n10/full/0802394a.html

10 year study, nullifies your statement.

jama has one as well.

It is a choice. No one is stopping people from making that choice. However it does have consequences.

I could care less if a person is overweight or not. However for a family member I would be quite concerned as the choice leads to early death.

Your urges are not an excuse to rip the clothes off a person and assault them, sure your brain is programmed to reproduce but that is subject to override.

Back you 99% bs with an article from a respected publication or please shelve it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. that is a study includling lap band surgery

for the overtly obese, eligibity for a band is extreme obesity, aka not every joe with a slightly overweight problem qualities

Aka I don't. In order to quality I'd have to gain about seventy pounds, and that puts me in the borderline category as a candidate

[Pavulon]

144. Data is hard to find, but that category

is pretty accurate. A control with non surgical intervention showed improvement.

Wife is a doc, so I take crap for bad habits. A little overweight is not a big deal. Most GP's dont care until you get into the significant territory. Dont have a chart, but it a higher number.

Most take balance into account.

[Juche]

148. That is an article about surgery, not lifestyle changes.

I agree surgery works for morbid obesity and medication works for being slightly overweight, but lifestyle changes alone do not. This study even shows lifestyle changes don't work long term very well.

In your metastudy, two studies compared weight loss with surgery vs lifestyle interventions like VLCD (very low calorie diet). Here are the results. Of the study that had an 8 year followup, people ended up being heavier than they were to start.

Weight loss Design: Cohort study with matched controls.


24 months surgical 28.0 kg; nonsurgical 0.0 kg(P<0.001)


Intervention: surgical (vertical banded gastroplasty; gastric banding; gastric bypass); nonsurgical. 8 y surgical 20.1 kg; nonsurgical -0.7 kg (gain)( (P<0.001)



People gained it all back in 2 years and ended up fatter by 8 years.

Of the other study, people lost weight and gained alot of it back over 2 years. However the study only goes out 2 years. I'm sure that based on this trend that the people were going to gain it back in 5-10 years.


Net weight change
12 months VLCD 18 kg; GP 23 kg (P=ns)
18 months VLCD 10.5 kg; GP 18.5 kg (P=ns)
24 months VLCD 9 kg; GP 32 kg (P<0.05)



I did find a study that shows a slightly better result with lifestyle. However, again about 74% of weight lost was regained within 3 years. And this is based on interviews, whereas a study I posted earlier shows that people who regain weight may be less willing to fulfill follow up interviews. In this study about 30% didn't do follow up and of those that did, 30% gave answers over the phone instead of having an independent party verify them. So that 74-78% failure rate could be low.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/18/6/620?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=anderson+jw&fulltext=relationship+of+weight+loss&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1113543519263_1112&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=

Subjects regained an average of 2.5% per month of their lost weight during the first two to three years of follow-up; however, their weight stabilized over the next four years. Subjects regained an average of 73.4% of their weight loss during the first three years. The average weight loss maintained for 112 subjects was 22.8% of initial weight loss after an average of 5.3 years of follow-up. When successful weight maintenance was defined as maintaining a weight loss of 5% or 10% of initial (pre-treatment) body weight, 40% were maintaining a 5% weight loss at five years and 25% were maintaining a weight loss of 10% at 7 years. Multiple regression analyses suggested that age had a significant (p=0.004) and positive effect on weight maintenance.





Healthy lifestyle is important and desirable, but it is not going to fix obesity.

[eridani]

202. Did you even bother to read the results for diet and exercise advice vs surgery?

Median weight loss (range)
24 months medical management 5.9 kg (-11.9, 40.4);
jejunoileostomy 42.9 kg (20.5, 108.5) (P<0.001)

Weight loss
24 months surgical 28.0 kg; nonsurgical 0.0 kg (P<0.001)
8 y surgical 20.1 kg; nonsurgical -0.7 kg (gain) (P<0.001)

The "sensible choices" option was an utter and complete failure. After 2 years, a median loss of ~13 lbs, and after 8 a GAIN of ~2 lbs. Note the HUGE trend toward homeostasis--in fat people losing 13 lbs or gaining 2 lbs are both utterly trivial changes.

Even with the surgery, 44 lbs lost after 8 years is only slightly better than trivial. Here's a clue for you. 300 lbs - 44 lbs = 256 lbs = STILL PRETTY FAT!

[wickerwoman]

114. You're talking about a population that doesn't exist.

Nobody is significantly overweight by choice. That's like immigrants who refuse to learn English or single moms who have fourteen kids for the welfare checks. Nobody deliberately acts that completely against their own self-interest on purpose.

A healthy diet and exercise are certainly good for you. I eat a healthy diet and exercise and I have no problems with my blood sugar or blood pressure. But they do not necessarily help you lose weight and they certainly don't help you keep weight off. At least not if you're one of the 95% of people that it hasn't worked for.

Since this equation fails 95% of the time, I think the sensible thing to do is start looking for other variables.

[bertman]

151. "Nobody is significantly overweight by choice." If by that you mean they get up in the

morning one day and say "Today I choose to be overweight" well then you are certainly correct. But if you mean that they do not choose to be overweight by their actions or inaction, then you are wrong.

The people I know who are overweight to the point of obesity did not choose to become obese, instead they chose to adopt eating habits and lifestyle choices that lead to obesity.

Example: this person works in an office sitting at a computer screen all day. Her breakfast consists of a fast-food type biscuit with sausage, chicken or ham and two cups of black coffee. She arrives at work, sits at her desk, then takes her lunch break where she orders a cheeseburger with large side order of potato chips plus a large coke. Then she goes back to work, finishes her day behind the desk, drives home (forty-five minute drive). At home she vacuums, does laundry, then cooks/eats a dinner of ham, mashed potatoes, canned green beans and French bread. Dessert is chocolate brownies. Then she settles in to folding laundry, watching TV and paying bills and drinking more coke.

This is her routine except for the occasional physical work day of raking leaves in the yard--which is soon to be changed to using the leaf blower to blow the leaves around.

Substitute he for she, change the job from desk jockey to clerk or attorney or factory worker, then multiply by millions and VOILA: obesity epidemic.

Certainly there are people who have thyroid issues, but the majority of us Americans have become lazy in our dietary choices or ignorant or willfully ignorant PLUS we have become sedentary.

I have seen it in family members, coworkers, neighbors, and myself (though I am not yet obese) and, in my opinion, it is not a disease but a failure to alter lifestyle and diet.

[wickerwoman]

155. And in many cases there is only the illusion of choice.

When I worked in the US, I could never find a house closer than a one hour commute (each way) to work. That means 11+ hours a day away from a kitchen and any source of refrigeration. I couldn't afford a car, so unless I ate out, I had to carry two meals worth of food on the bus.

To create that two meals worth of food meant another three hours a week on buses because there were no supermarkets within a forty minute walk of me in any direction. Those two meals a day meant another thirty-forty minutes a day of prep time (for healthy meals involving vegetables) and half an hour of washing dishes by hand because I couldn't afford a dishwasher.

I was taking classes at the same time which added even more meals away from home, more bus rides, more washing tupperware by hand, more hours planning meals that were still edible after six hours in a cooler. More getting home at eleven at night and facing an hour of cooking and washing dishes for the next day's meals or having to get up at four a.m. to do all the day's cooking.

So to save fifteen to twenty hours a week which I didn't have for meal planning and prep, I ate out. And what were the options within a one hour radius of home and work? Fast food, fast food, greasy Chinese, subs, vending machine fare and gas station burritos.

When you're working within certain budgetary, geographic and time constrictions there is only just enough illusion of choice that people who don't have to work within those restraints can point and say "ignorant" "lazy" "failure".

I didn't choose to make $15,000 a year. I didn't choose to live an hour from work. I didn't choose not to have a car or a dishwasher or hours of free times for menu planning and shopping. I didn't choose not to have a healthy convenience food option anywhere near my home or work. I didn't choose to live forty minutes and two bus transfers from the nearest non-ghetto grocery store. I didn't choose to have parents who ate pizza and McDonalds five nights a week and never taught me how to cook.

My point is that there are many, many variables that contribute to the lifestyles that people "choose". And even where choices are genuine choices (such as having more kids than you can handle) in some cases, it's not constructive to point out the source of the problem because there is nothing you can do to change that circumstance. You can't ditch some of your kids so you have more time to focus on your own health. You can't stop taking care of elderly relatives. You can't flip a switch and not be depressed. You can't always make more money or move to a better location or afford some of the conveniences that would allow you to take better care of yourself.

All you can do is look for another way out. And accept that in some circumstances, there is no other way out. And not judge people without knowing all of the aspects of their situation.

[bertman]

171. I agree that in your situation you had very limited choices and I'm sure there are lots

of people in your situation. Of course, I was referring to the others who are fortunate enough to not have the constraints you were working against but who still make good nutrition and physical activity a low priority.

I have to tell you, wickerwoman, that I hope your circumstances have improved. I remember that you have had some seriously stressful (physically and mentally) employment gigs in the past. I hope the present is being kinder to you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. As she pointed out, this is far more complex than just ahem choice

though you have a point that diets suck and in many cases people "choose not to do what is right for them" there is more than just choice

I will say it again, if lifestyle was all that was needed, the obesity problem would be licked

Hell today we walked for dinner, a two mile walk when all was said and done

This was possible since BIL and sister decided to do that with the kids, not their usual routine, but only reason why that was possible, we had a decent sidewalk... a rarity in suburbia

A lot of our issues with people simply walking is our urban design as well

[bertman]

194. I can't argue with any of that. There are lots of fronts to work on if we want to solve

this epidemic.

[wickerwoman]

199. Thanks bertman

Things did improve quite a bit (and now they suck again but will eventually get better, I'm sure.)

I learned a lot better ways to take care of myself and it did help when circumstances allowed it. I'm basically healthy now by every standard except BMI. I'm literally the only person in my very large family that doesn't have diabetes and I'm super-vigilant and determined to keep it that way.

The problem is that the damage is done so early in so many cases and can become almost irreversible.

I was fed absolute crap when I was kid. Literally one vegetable a week (and usually corn), potato chips for breakfast, greasy school lunch hamburgers for lunch and I was babysat by the TV. From the time I was seven, I came home to an empty house and had to "cook" dinner for my brother and myself. I was overweight by 13 and obese by 20. I lived in pretty extreme poverty from 21-27 and wasn't given the tools to cope with it in terms of knowing how to cook, to make healthy foods on a budget and to store and make good use of leftovers.

I've been trying to lose weight pretty much constantly for eighteen years and it's hard not to be a little insulted by the "all you have to do is eat less and exercise more" crowd. It's not like that's news. I'm not that stupid or lazy or addiction-prone or completely lacking in willpower since I haven't displayed those qualities in any other aspect of my life.

There were long stretches of my life where poor health choices were not in my control. And once the choices were in my control, the damage had already been done. You can look at the fat office woman of today and say "she's fat because she eats hamburgers for lunch" but she knows that she shouldn't eat hamburgers for lunch. Why does she do it anyway?

Maybe she lives in circumstances that don't allow her to bring healthy meals to work every day. Maybe she was raised eating garbage and never taught how to take better care of herself. Maybe she feels like shit and the only good thing about her day is the hamburger she gets to eat for lunch. Maybe she's been keeping to a diet faithfully for months but she's having a super-crappy day and slipped and because she's fat your memory tricks you into thinking "she always eats crap for lunch".

I just refuse to believe that people can act completely against their own self-interest once all of the variables are accounted for. The equation "eat less and exercise more" works for 5% of the population. That's great. For the other 95% we need to look at housing, transportation, availability and cost of high quality food, nutritional education, psychological health, family situation, access at work to things like refrigeration, microwaves or high quality convenience foods, the general attitude of the public towards people with weight issues (do they work in an environment where they are shamed for their weight?), over-scheduled, under-rested, just plain exhausted with family-care commitments?

People aren't getting fat in a bubble and I think you get a misleading picture by just pointing to a few people you know and saying "they're fat because they eat too much and don't exercise." OK, but why do they eat too much and why don't they exercise (along with 60% of the adult American population)? 60% of the American population isn't stupid or lazy or ignorant of nutrition. 60% aren't blatantly self-destructive. We live in a culture where the rewards of thinness are obvious to the naked eye. 60% of the population isn't giving up those rewards because they just can't be bothered to get off their asses.

[eridani]

201. "balances their system with a good diet and exercise will maintain body weight in the

-- acceptable range." 100% horseshit. Take all the couch potatoes with lousy diets and measure BMI. What you will see is a bell curve. Take all the people who get regular exercise and abstain from junk foods and measure BMI. You will get another bell curve, with the midpoint at a somewhat lower BMI.

The difference between the two ends of the bell curve in either case is likely to be between 10 and 20 BMI units. The distance between the two midpoints is likely to be 2 or 3 units. You can choose which curve to be on, but you have absolutely no control over where your BMI is on that curve.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. We live in a very puritan society where

these are equated to moral failures

That is where the blocks come from truly

Also the Scientific community has done a terrible job of educating people on the increased complexities we are seeing with modern life, including things like increased rates of hormonal problems... which have precious little to do with diet or lifestyle

[Juche]

117. I think part of it is just fear and a desire to control things we don't control

Like I said in another post, before modern medicine came and offered real solutions, whenever a plague would hit we would blame it on the moral failings of some group or another. Even though it wasn't true, it gave us a sense of control over things that were threatening to us while helping solidify the social order.

I guess humans have a desire to believe they can control things that scare them, even when they can't. That is why superstition is so rampant. Since short of surgery there are no cures for obesity and we live in a society that is deathly afraid of bodyfat, it is easier to pretend we can cure if if we just fixed our moral failings than to admit how helpless we are. Its easier than admitting that we can't control or stop a physical trait that we are so heavily disgusted by that some polls have shown women would rather be hit by a bus than be morbidly obese.

[wickerwoman]

98. Your body is designed to store fat, not to work.

If your caloric intake drops below a certain point, your metabolism drops way down too so that you can store energy as fat for when you really need it. The body interprets lower than average calorie intake as a warning sign of starvation.

I don't drink alcohol, haven't had fast food in five years, don't eat chocolate, rarely go above 200g of carbs a day, exercise 40-60 minutes a day and still can't lose more than seventy pounds and keep it off for more than two years.

Again, 95% of diets fail. And obesity is frequently related to depression and other mood disorders too. You can't just snap your fingers and not be depressed and apparently 95% of people can't wake up one morning, say "I should lose some weight" and then do it.

We can spend another 30 years banging our heads against the wall, saying all these people need to do is lower calories and exercise more, or we can try to look outside the box for both the causes and the solutions.

[Juche]

100. Thank you

Its nice to see someone else who gets it.

I disagree with our culture's moral hysteria surrounding obesity, but I am personally concerned about the health risks associated with it and we do need a cure. You are right, we can't bang our heads on the wall for 30 years like we did with abstinence only education by ignoring the 99% failure rate and by claiming everyone is just too slutty and immoral to follow the advice (while never considering that the advice itself is in the wrong, not the patient). Osteoarthritis, cardiovascular disease and type II diabetes are all serious complications of obesity. Not only that, but the emotional and mental damage the war on obesity does is staggering. But I think when we get workable cures I think alot of the hysteria, loathing and stubbornness around the issue of body fat will dissolve and we'll be better off psychologically because of it.

We currently can use surgerly like lap band to fight severe obesity, and medication to fight moderate overweight. But the medical interventions are still in their infancy.

[Pavulon]

118. Chicken and egg here

depression may be a cause of or caused by obesity. depression is very difficult to treat in some people. A life long challenge for many people.

My point was that in a healthy person the body is not being used for what it was designed to do. Therefore a process that was designed to preserve life can take it.

A look towards africa and se asia show very little obesity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Yet their rates of diabetes are skyrocketing

http://www.cehjournal.org/0953-6833/09/jceh_09_20_051.html

http://www.entreneteam.com/absolutenm/templates/entrenetarticle.aspx?articleid=225&zoneid=14&i=

Why is that? And how long until obesity rates also go up... oh wait, they are already are

[wickerwoman]

124. But from a larger perspective,

the body is doing exactly what it is designed to do: preserve energy in the form of fat so that in times of famine it will have access to that energy. And as soon as that famine is over, the body will even more aggressively retain energy as fat in preparation for the next famine. This is why Chinese people are at far greater risks of obesity and diabetes than Westerners (because they have been genetically pre-selected by generations of frequent famine to be super-preservers of energy. An average Chinese person will increase their risk of developing diabetes when they are 20-40 pounds overweight, while a European's risk increases in the 60+ range).

We can create pseudo-famine conditions for ourselves through extreme acts of willpower, but our nature, in almost every case, will react by slowing the metabolism even further to prevent weight-loss or by compulsive binging once the pseudo-famine conditions are lifted (i.e. you slip on your diet.)

I lost weight when I lived in China, yes. And then I gained it back as soon as I found ways to adapt to the environment so that I could get the calories my body told me I needed.

I'm not a subsistence farmer and I don't live in Kenya. Given that I have to park my ass in front of a computer for eight to ten hours a day to make a living (at least some percentage of the population does in a 21st century economy), it's not really that helpful to suggest that all I need to do is quit my job and join the marine corps or work construction and the problem will be solved.

[Pavulon]

139. No..Not suggesting that

balance is more important than bmi. For the vast majority of people being slightly to moderately overweight is just part of life.

Like a few beer on friday night.

I prefer to exercise and eat normally and let the cards fall. Again all about balance.

I spend time in front of a monitor, A little exercise and better food corrected a problem. With predisposition to heart disease and diabetes it is not extreme for me.

[cliffordu]

161. DARFUR IS YOUR FUCKING STUDY

You cannot gain or maintain body weight if the calories burned are
greater than the calories ingested.
IF YOU COULD, NO ONE WOULD STARVE TO DEATH.

[cliffordu]

167. Crickets....

[Scout]

229. so all you lazy fatties just shut up and fucking STARVE yourselves to death!

those poor thin people are just so sick of having to look at you and listen to you whine.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

45. It could also be a malfunction in the metabolism

of the body that makes it so a person gains weight on 1000 calories a day. That is, of course, for a doctor to determine.

What those 1000 calories consist of is of vital importance, and one of the first thing an MD would look at. Let's use me as an example. When I was 8 years old, I was diagnosed as obese, and placed on a 1000 calorie diet. I ate vegetables like green beans and carrots and beats as well as whole grain bread, lean meat, and very little fat (which is very high in calories). I didn't lose much weight at all, and went on to try various and sundry diets throughout my life.

Three years ago, I went to my current doctor, who determined I had hypothyroidism (through family history, a reflex test, and and blood work). I also found out I had blood sugar issues, and Doc discovered the very WORST things for me to eat are carrots, beets, and bread. Fats are something I should eat! I shed my extra pounds and have kept them off and feel very healthy and, even better, have no urge to "cheat"--in fact, foods not on my diet don't even appeal to me any more.

[billyoc]

49. Wow, I'm really glad you got that sorted out.

Do you really think that the majority of the people in the U.S. have hypothydroidism, though?

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. It is at epydemic rates, if you dare read the OP and go look for more sources

[Political Heretic]

74. (I do) Majority or not, enough do that simple generic statements like "calories in"

aren't always completely accurate.

Many times.

But many other times there's additional factors contributing to the problem beyond calorie intake.

That said, just because I have hypothyroidism does not mean I should use it as an excuse and be condemned to a life of obesity. Before graduate school I was lean and trim. Then life got extremely busy and my diet and exercise patterns tanked. I'm looking forward to eating right and exercising again and I'll lose weight... with or without hypothyroidism.

Having additional medical conditions just means that losing weight is more difficult for some than it is for others - and people should be sensitive to that.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

146. No, but I do know that there are areas of the country

where it is very common to find it. The Midwest has been known as "the goiter belt" for several decades because there seems to be a disproportionate number of peoples with that thyroid problem found there. Also note please that in many cases, such as mine, thyroid issues go back generations--I can trace it as far back as my grandmother.

Another issue is metabolic syndrome, which can also cause weight gain. Some studies have shown that large numbers of people may suffer from it. Here's an article from our Foundation archives about it:

http://www.futurevisionsfoundation.org/metabolics.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. A perfect example of why the ins and outs simple theory of weight

gain is not really there

Unfortunately even medical profesionals at times still believe it is a simple matter of calories when things are far more complex

[Political Heretic]

80. When are things ever not more complex?

Honestly I'm amazed that there are people out there who still believe that simply absolute answers work for anything.

Of course causes and severity of weight gain is complex and varied from individual to individual. It includes calorie consumption, no question. But the denial of any other factors is what is ignorant and proveably false.

Some people's ability to lose weight is much less than other people's for a variety of factors (two of which easily come to mind 1)a medical condition that affects metabolism 2) medication that impacts weight gain

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

143. Tell me about it

obviously, it is something I've been working on most of my life--and very few of the doctors I have gone to have really known that much about metabolism and its effect on diet.

[lukasahero]

46. "whale-arity"

Aren't you a swell guy.

[billyoc]

51. You like that one, eh? I just made it up.

[lukasahero]

55. Not really - I think you're rude and not nearly as precious as you think you are. eom

[billyoc]

57. Oh, NOBODY is as precious as I think I am.

[Patchuli]

89. Are you a doctor, nutritionist or fitness expert, billy?

If not, STFU. Your boneheaded thinking is a large part of the problem. I suppose you thought your 'whale' crack was funny? It's not. It shows ignorance and insensitivity. I sure hope you never have any thyroid problems; you'd want to jump off a cliff with your outlook on obesity. Walk a mile in another's shoes before you cast judgment. And no, I am not obese but I'm sure tired of people who judge others' lives and health conditions without knowing what the hell they're talking about.

[Auggie]

3. Look towards the Western Diet too

Author Michael Pollan speaks at length about this in his book, "In Defense of Food".

Food. There's plenty of it around, and we all love to eat it. So why should anyone need to defend it?

Because most of what we're consuming today is not food, and how we're consuming it -- in the car, in front of the TV, and increasingly alone -- is not really eating. Instead of food, we're consuming "edible foodlike substances" -- no longer the products of nature but of food science. Many of them come packaged with health claims that should be our first clue they are anything but healthy. In the so-called Western diet, food has been replaced by nutrients, and common sense by confusion. The result is what Michael Pollan calls the American paradox: The more we worry about nutrition, the less healthy we seem to become.

But if real food -- the sort of food our great grandmothers would recognize as food -- stands in need of defense, from whom does it need defending? From the food industry on one side and nutritional science on the other. Both stand to gain much from widespread confusion about what to eat, a question that for most of human history people have been able to answer without expert help. Yet the professionalization of eating has failed to make Americans healthier. Thirty years of official nutritional advice has only made us sicker and fatter while ruining countless numbers of meals.

Pollan proposes a new (and very old) answer to the question of what we should eat that comes down to seven simple but liberating words: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. By urging us to once again eat food, he challenges the prevailing nutrient-by-nutrient approach -- what he calls nutritionism -- and proposes an alternative way of eating that is informed by the traditions and ecology of real, well-grown, unprocessed food. Our personal health, he argues, cannot be divorced from the health of the food chains of which we are part.

LINK: http://www.michaelpollan.com/indefense.php


Western Diet Linked to Diabetes in Women: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=5162825&mesg_id=5162825

"Women who followed the Western-diet had a greater risk of type 2 diabetes, particularly if they ate processed meats, bacon, and hot dogs. Overall, the Western diet raised the risk of diabetes by nearly 50% among the women in this study."

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Why I referred to all the aditives and preservatives in food

and it is not just the western nations adding this crap, by the way

[Auggie]

27. Not just additives -- nutrition is compromised at the expense of yields.

In the book Pollan mentions that an apple from 1940 would contains three times the nutrients of an apple from today. Orchard trees are being coaxed into producing more fruit. Trouble is that dilutes the nutrient of the entire tree. Same thing happening in meat and farmed fish production. The animals are fed cheap crap that does little to build-up their nutritional content.

IT'S THE PROCESSED FOOD THAT'S KILLING US.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Yep

[truedelphi]

150. Also in th nineteen thirties and forties, some farmers knew that

For fertilizers to work properly, certain things still needed to be added to the soil. Things like lime and phosphorus.

Now the many artificial inorganic fertilizers are added to the soil, and many modern day farmers believe the propaganda of big Chemical companies that that is enough nourishment for the soil. Then they add in the pesticides, which go on to destroy many microbes

Thus our soil content is basically devoid of the vitamins and minerals that once were inside it.

[wuushew]

6. Limbaugh is too rich not to overcome his weight issues

he is not the victim. Complexity and economic problems is what stymies everybody else in Amerika.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Ah sooner or later, I will judge Rush on his intellectual failings

not his weight.

Got it?

I have NO FUCKING ACCESS to his medical history, not do I want to.

[Pavulon]

13. Genetic influence, but at the end of day simple math

if you take in more energy that you use you gain weight. Reduce the intake, loose the weight.

Portion control, lack of time to exercise, and poor diet lead to weight gain.

That is why impoverished countries in asia, africa, and latin america do not suffer the same rates we do.

There is no judgment in this post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. That is why Mexico is currently NUMBER ONE in obesity and

diabetes rates not only in the Western Hemisphere but the world

They are indeed a Rich Westernized country

By the way, here is a free clue, rates of diabetes in the world are going up in exponential numbers, making diabetes the numgber one concern for the Wold Health Organization... oh that includes obesity as well

Did I mention they don't mention the Western Economies that much?

I thought so

[cliffordu]

20. Lessee....Corn, lard, pork, beef, cheeze by the pound.....Breans in pork fat....

Did I forget anything????

Try the Paleo diet, or pritikin....

[Pavulon]

26. These are MEDICAL issues

that are impacted by diet. Some are caused by diet choices. Namibia does not seem to have that problem. Nor does Thailand.

I flip through JAMA and the others that get left around the house. DIET is the focus of most publications read by WHO doctors.

The physiology involved in weight is well understood. The impact of obesity is evolving. However MORBID is pretty clear.

You seem to have an emotional stake here.

[Odin2005]

53. The big problem in that case is genetics. Northern Europeans are adapted for a fatty, meat-rich diet

Most people whose ancestry is of populations in the tropics and semi-tropics are much less able to tolerate large amounts of saturated fat. Different climates support different foodstuffs and that leads to different populations to develop over thousands of years adaptations to different diets.

Diabetes is a good example. The longer your ancestors have been growing grains the less likely you are to get diabetes from easting lots of carbs.

This is why HFCS is so bad, at least for people of European ancestry. The traditional source of fructose is fruit and fruit is not a major part of traditional western diets.

[Stephanie]

87. That's interesting

My ancestry is Scandinavian and that's always my excuse for consuming large amounts of butter. Can I now point to some science behind it? Any links? Thanks! My late Norwegian dairy farmer grandfather thanks you as well. :hi:

[Odin2005]

107. It's from a book I read on the genetics of eating. Can't remeber the name.

The most interesting chapter of the book was the interplay between malaria, fava beans, and a genetic disease called Favaism that is very common on the Italian island of Sardinia, but also occurs in the Mediterranean more generally. Basically the author suggested that we should eat a diet that fits our genetics.

Oh, I'm Scandinavian too and I have the same addiction to butter! :rofl:

[Stephanie]

129. Mmmmm, butter!

When my sister was a toddler sometimes we'd leave a stick of butter on the kitchen counter to soften and we'd come back to find her chomping on it like a candy bar!

[Odin2005]

133. LOL, I'll probably use a half a stick per helping of potato dumplings!

*drools*

[Odin2005]

134. Oops, double post!

[Juche]

30. That doesn't work

Every study on the subject that asks people to eat less and exercise more shows it failing 95-100% of the time

http://www.physorg.com/news94906931.html



"You can initially lose 5 to 10 percent of your weight on any number of diets, but then the weight comes back," said Traci Mann, UCLA associate professor of psychology and lead author of the study. "We found that the majority of people regained all the weight, plus more. Sustained weight loss was found only in a small minority of participants, while complete weight regain was found in the majority. Diets do not lead to sustained weight loss or health benefits for the majority of people."


Life has existed for 3.8 billion years, and maintaining a homeostatic energy intake and expenditure is very basic to biological survival. You can't ask a species that spent its 3.8 billion year history trying to avoid famine to engage in voluntary famine (eating foods which have few calories and engaging in exercise) and expect it to work.

Diet and exercise as a cure for obesity is the biggest medical failure in western medicine next to abstinence only education as a cure for unwanted pregnancy and STD.

[eridani]

203. You have no control over the amount of energy you use

You can control intake, but lower intake and the energy you use will drop. By what amount is highly variable in individuals. Gee, isn't it great that impoverished countries have life expectancies that are so much higher than those in our own degenerate society?

[rocktivity]

15. I've always said that if losing weight was simply a matter of eating less and exercising more

everyone would be skinny.

:headbang:
rocknation

[cliffordu]

21. The biggest loser. On the television.

[terisan]

18. The increase in thyroid disorders is an environmental red flag. The diabetes problem

is horrendous.

Thanks for raising this issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You welcome

:-)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

24. From your post, and an article to back it up.

>>Now what does these studies show? That women, for whatever reason, we think is something in the water, literally, have had a decrease in thyroid function. In English this means that if your thyroid is low, you gain weight, very easily, even when eating a normal amount of calories<<


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/26/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main981129.shtml

Hormone fluctuations can happen during pregnancy or menopause, or be caused by infections and some medications. Some people are born with an underactive thyroid.

The most common thyroid disease, Senay continues, is an immune system disorder linked to aging, in which the body destroys its own thyroid cells and the lack of the hormones causes a body-wide slowdown. Older women, especially, are more prone to this kind of thyroid problem, but not everyone will automatically develop thyroid disease just because they get older.

Symptoms of thyroid problems can include memory lapses, depression, fatigue, feeling chilled or increased sensitivity to cold, weight gain or trouble losing weight, high cholesterol, thinning hair, dry skin and puffy eyes.

Many of those symptoms may also be symptoms of other problems, so you really need to see a doctor for a diagnosis.

Underactive thyroid is diagnosed by blood test, and can be treated by prescribing thyroid hormone.

It's important to talk to your doctor about a test for thyroid disease if you suspect you may be suffering from it, Senay emphasizes.


Many doctors reacted with concern to opinions expressed during an interview on The Early Show last month in which Dr. Steven Hotze cast some doubt on the effectiveness of the standard blood tests for thyroid disease for use in making a decision on whether to treat with thyroid hormone.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

274. Hotze is talking about treating symptoms, not going by blood test numbers.

He's probably right.

Doctors nowadays go by the almighty TSH numbers, instead of "how does the patient feel?"



A website that goes into the misdiagnosis and mistreatment of hypothyroidism:

www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

The "immune system disorder linked to aging" mentioned above is Hashimoto's disease, in which the body's antibodies attack the thyroid gland and kill it. It's the most common cause of hypothyroidism. Many millions of people in America have undiagnosed hypothyroidism, and wonder why they are tired all the time. Not everyone who gets it is a middle aged woman.

Autoimmune diseases run in families. My grandmother had an overactive thyroid. She was an overachiever who thought that the rest of her family was "lazy".

My mom got Hashimoto's when she was about eleven years old. A doctor put her on Armour thyroid in approximately 1933.

The same thing happened to me. My thyroid quit working when I was ten or eleven, and I've taken Armour ever since. Mother's sister had four girls. Two of them have dead thyroids, two of them are normal, and one of them with a dead thyroid also has lupus.

[killbotfactory]

25. It doesn't help that we subsidize fast food, and processed foods, and the like

by allowing companies to operate without paying their employees a real living wage, and having the government pick up a lot of the slack in the form of welfare, food stamps, medicare. As well as the increased crime rates and stress levels (which also causes weight gain) that accompanies being poor and gets worse with higher concentrations of poverty.

We aren't paying the full price for junk, so junk is consumed more often, is cheaper than healthy food, and therefor leads to an increasing overproduction of crap.

[Auggie]

28. What I'm saying in post #3. Thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

198. And you are correct

our food policy is upside down, and that may have to change

Of course since now I can afford it, we do quite a bit of organic

We can't afford all of it, but milk, absolutely

And it tastes better to boot

[Balbus]

31. Actually, there is nothing more simple in the world.

If you use more calories than you take in it is impossible NOT to lose weight. Thyroids, hormones, metabaolism - all bullshit. Eat less, exercise more = super simple.

[MorningGlow]

36. Not true.

Not in the least. See my post below. I lived it, and I can tell you that sometimes there ARE extenuating circumstances that make it a LOT more complicated that "go work out."

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Thank you for the puritan thinking, alas the science is

against you

[bertman]

152. Nadin, will you please lay off the "puritan thinking" comment? It is not only annoying

but inaccurate and condescending to people who simply have a different view of this than yours. Thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. Actually when it comes to things like glutony and obesity

there is a religious component to it, and we still live in a very puritan country where things like obesity are seen as a moral failing

Why I am using it, not different than smokers can just quit, we now far better, alcoholics can put the bottle down, we know better, or drug addicts can just quit

That is why I am using it. And my opinions, as you like to call them, are based on the state of the science.

Why? After I got diabetes, the diagnosis that is, I knew I needed to loose some weight

Well the ins and outs didn't quite work, between the Avandia (side effect gained forty pounds in two months) and the thyroid issues... lets just say it's taken over three years to loose fifty pounds

Yes, some life style changes were ennacted, but mostly it was... stoping the Avandia and taking medicine for the Thyroid

If I kept listening to the stop eating crowd, I'd probably be at 250, at the rate I was gaining... and not eating beyond 1000 calories

So how's that reality for you?

I know it is more than just closing your mouth and exercising, much more

[Duke Newcombe]

173. Again, to the "Math Brigade"

Say it with me: THE HUMAN BODY IS NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT A SINGLE-ENTRYPOINT CLOSED SYSTEM. There is more at play than simple in/out formulae.

Rate of consumption
Rate of metabolism
Famine response

Why ignore this?

[Scout]

231. because it's easier to remain ignorant and judgemental by ignoring it n/t

[eridani]

204. It isn't possible to control the number of calories that you use

You can eat less and exercise more, but then the number of calories you "need" will drop substantially. Lots of individual variation, of couse.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. Interesting that you bring up alcoholics

There are some folks whose metabolism works so that they manufacture they own alcohol out of sugars they ingest. These people don't like drinking alcohol at all, but are addicted to sweets.

If you are obese and don't want to be, I feel it is important to get to an MD who is into checking metabolism rates, thyroid, and food allergies. I work in such a clinic (part of a non-profit health education foundation). It is amazing what we've found out. As stated, a LOT of folks have thyroid issues, and low thyroid can help put on the pounds. And a lot of folks are diabetic--but what sets off their glycemic index is not always the traditional sugar and carbs. One patient, it was discovered, had a severely adverse reaction to green beans--when she ate them, her blood sugar would go through the roof! And one patient, it was found, could not digest proteins properly--her diet for weight loss and general health was tailored to include carbs and fats.

I cannot stress how important it is to get on a food program that is tailored for you individually. I was obese, went to this doctor (before I started working there full time), found out exactly what foods I should eat and what foods I should avoid--and am now in normal weight range. I don't feel like "cheating" on this diet because what I eat satisfies me and makes me feel good. I also take a prescription for hypothyroidism and I take supplements for specific support--omega three fatty acid to keep cholesterol in balance, and chrome to keep my blood sugar stable. I will gladly--and easily--stay on this eating plan the rest of my life.

[Iris]

48. any suggestions about how to find a doctor or clinic like yours

in one's local area?

Your observation about people's bodies manufacturing alcohol out of sugars fascinates me. I'm from a long line of alcoholics but have never really been a drinker; however, I've always had a sweet tooth. In addition, I've noticed symptoms similar to hangover when I've had a lot of sugary foods.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

141. I'm not quite sure

you could google for doctors who specialize in metabolism or diet. My MD is a member of the American Holistic Medical Association--lots of those members are interested in these topics. I believe if you google them you can go to a Doctor Finder where they list the doctor's specialties. Perhaps other medical association websites do the same. Of course, if you are near northwest Arkansas, you can call on us--- http://www.futurevisionsfoundation.org

[Iris]

220. Thanks! I'll see what I can find!

[Odin2005]

85. This is another genetic thing. The longer your ancestors have been making booze the better one can..

...tolerate drinking alcoholic beverages. Europeans and Middle-Easterners traditionally drank lots of alcohol because it was sterile, unlike well water. Thus we developed over thousands of years a resistance to getting drunk and a better ability to metabolize the alcohol.

[MorningGlow]

34. Thyroid--that was my bugaboo

I've written about this before on DU, but I'm going to say it again. I was unaware that thyroid disease was present on both sides of my immediate family. All I knew was that after most of a life at a perfect weight (except for between the ages of 7 and 11, when I also ballooned to a high weight "for no apparent reason"), I started gaining weight in my early 30s--at a time when I was dieting and exercising regularly.

At first the excuse I heard was "Well, you just got married. You're content." :puke: Then I heard "You're getting older. Work out more" and "You're eating out too much". I worked out more. I stopped eating out. I kept gaining weight. I went from 128 lbs. to 178 lbs. in less than a year. I exhibited all the symptoms of thyroid disease (hair falling out, joint pain, extreme coldness in extremities, exhaustion, etc. etc. etc.) and I stopped menstruating.

I saw doctors. OB/GYNs. Nutritionists. Endocrinologists. Because I was a young woman who was now overweight (and constantly gaining the whole time I was trying to get help), the common assumption was that I wanted a "magic pill" to help me lose a few extra pounds, so they told me to get lost--without taking into account all my symptoms. Couldn't be thyroid, they said. Exercise seven days a week. Eat tons of soy (the absolute worst thing for a thyroid that's out of whack). Take antidepressants. Anything but trying thyroid medication.

I begged a doctor to at least let me try the thyroid medication. She gave me the lowest dose. I started to feel better! I asked if she would follow the usual treatment for thyroid, which would be to gradually increase the dose until my body was back on track. She refused.

I'm still thanking the universe that I found my holistic m.d. She listened to me, believed me, and recognized the symptoms of subclinical hypothyroidism (which the standard blood test doesn't reveal). She treated me properly, and I feel fantastic today. I even credit being able to have my son to her treatment, because when my thyroid was untreated, my blood sugar shot up, I became prediabetic, and I developed polycystic ovary syndrome, which rendered me infertile. Once my thyroid was under control, my infertility abated.

What's sick is my HMO won't recognize her as a valid candidate for being my primary care doctor, so I have to have another doctor (a medical "beard"?) that I see for sinus infections, and I have to pay full shot to visit my holistic m.d. for my thyroid treatment. Gotta love the U.S. medical system. :eyes:

So yeah. I know all about how hard it is to lose weight. I'm still struggling. But at least I now don't feel like I'm about to die.

[Reterr]

40. Both extremes on the obesity debate take too simplistic a view of things sometimes

I agree that reducing nutrition/health science to:
(calories in)-(calories expended) == ~0 => no net weight gain, may be too simplistic.

But at least imo it is inaccurate to claim that there is nothing to health/nutrition science.

Obviously, there are important genetic influences but lifestyle is definitely one factor that contributes to obesity. There are a host of other factors, but for many people lifestyle is certainly a component.

When making scientific evaluations of different systems, as the complexity of the system increases it becomes harder to disentangle the various factors causing this or that. For instance, it is often easier to quantify and reproduce experimental results in physics say when you are studying something like ions, as opposed to cell behaviour in biology. Why? Because, cells are more complex and there is greater variability making experimental results harder to interpret than say results with ions.
Now imagine, how much greater the complexity gets when you go to a whole organisms food and exercise habits.

So I think the fundamentals of health science are basically sound. It is just misguided to take it absolutely literally and apply it to *every* situation. I agree obesity is complex issue, but I do take issue with some of those "fat activists" who claim that diet and exercise are not factors at all and thyroid issues are the only reason anyone is obese.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Exactly, and why I said it is not that simple as many people wish

to think

I believe we have developed some of the factors leading to this epydemic in our own industrial and post industrial waste for example

[Odin2005]

41. Losing weight isn't nearly as easy at the fat-people-haters like to think.

If you try to lose weight and increase exercise and decrease calorie intake your metabolism goes into "get ready for famine" mode. This is why when us obese people try to diet we just yo-yo, out weight loss results in our metabolism slowing down, which causes us to gain the weight back. It's not as simple as "getting calorie intake to be lower then calorie use" because your body will try to cut calorie use as much as possible if the calorie intake decreases.

The problem has nothing to do with any one person's supposed "moral failings". It has to do with that our bodies are adapted to survive period of famine, an over-supply of food is something totally new in human existance.

[Pavulon]

54. Lifestyle choices. See lots of fat people in the Army?

or fat marines? Not just because of the regs, this is related to exercise. I can not think of anything worse than chow. Nothing, like eating at waffle house every day. Still weight was not an issue.

People live and work in more sedentary lifestyles.

Given a choice normal people do not get up at 5am to do a 5k before the sun comes up.

Lots of emotion from posters here. Being overweight is not the end of the world, but it is not as complex as it is made out to be in HEALTHY people.

It is a health issue and directly impact lifespan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Actually you also forget the food for freedom program

or the fact that people are thrown out of the service before things like zynthroid are ever given

Self selecting population in fact

[Brooklyns_Finest]

99. Marines

When I was in bootcamp we had a few guys who were overweight. The drill instructors put them on "diet trays", which is less food than the regular recruits. By the end of bootcamp, they were lean, fit, and I was proud to call them fellow Marines.

I do not ever remember seeing any overwieght people on base. Maybe it was because we had to workout everyday, had physical fitness test and body fat requirements, and the fact that they served relatively healthy food in the chowhall.

While I do beleive that there are some credible genetic reasons for SOME people being overweight. In my opinion, the majority of obese people just lead unhealthy lifestyles.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. You never saw them becuase those who were out of standards

which is not fat by any stretch of the imagination, were let go from the corp

That is why you never saw that

[eridani]

206. "Not being in a military exercise regimen" = "unhealthy lifestyle"

Thanks. Now STFU please.

[eridani]

205. Geez. You are so wise! We just need to quit our office jobs

--and become subsistence farmers. Any ideas about how we are supposed to afford the land?

[BlooInBloo]

52. (cals in) > (cals out)

There is no other way to put on weight in the long-term.

There can of course be a variety of *reasons* why that inequality might hold.

[DailyGrind51]

58. Just look at Rush Limbaugh!

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. He may be a textbook example

as he has yo-yoed and has had the success rate of the US, 5%... aka he's still fat,

Why? I have no access to his medical history, nor care to

[DailyGrind51]

67. He needed Oxycontin to cope with back pain!

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. And one side efffect is wegiht gain

why I said textbook example

(Though he's had problems with weight all his life)

[AlCzervik]

62. i was hugely overweight because i took in more calories than i burned off.

i can only speak for myself and i don't make judgments on other people weight. I used to think it was only me in my family that got that fat gene, turns out my sister got it too but it took way longer for it to show on her.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I hear yah,

I do really

For us it was the diabetes and of course the ever so popular low thyroid

[AlCzervik]

71. diabetes runs rampant in my family, my Grandpa and his 3 brothers all had it

not a chubby one in the group, i was borderline by the time i decided i could not face 40 needing to lose 90 pounds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. It runs rampant in my family as well

and dad is rail thin. I am close to my ideal weight, but loosing is very hard. I may be close to my set point as well

[DemReadingDU]

65. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for being overweight

However, I don't seem to recall any pictures during the Depression of overweight poor people, nor any pictures of overweight people in the concentration camps.

[readmoreoften]

70. Maybe we should round up all obese people and put them in concentration camps. Great idea.

Yes, but I wonder if they lost muscle before fat. :crazy:

[DemReadingDU]

138. good question

Perhaps there have been scientific studies to see if muscle is lost before fat? I'm really not sure.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. We didn't have the thyroid, diabetes epydemic we are having right now

and this is world wide, by the way.

[DemReadingDU]

145. Perhaps there is a genetic disposition towards thyroid/diabetes?

I'm not sure if these syndromes are genetic? People are living longer, and with more people there would be more people affected. Curious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

184. There are clusters, that is for sure,

and genetics does play a factor

But so do environmental issues, such as the ever so popular use of corn syrup instead of sugar.

It does act a little different in the body... and that research is in its infancy

Why the commercials on the TV make me wonder if and when we will find a link... it is cheaper than sugar

[Scout]

230. hmmmm, many of today's poor are obese, so i guess your example sucks n/t

[readmoreoften]

66. My weight gain has been caused by a pituitary tumor that makes weight loss incredibly difficult.

I'm only about 25 pounds overweight now, but I have to fight like hell not to be 50 pounds overweight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. I hear ya and the judgemental asses in both the medical field

and general society at times make go :banghead:

[DemReadingDU]

147. I've often wondered why most of my family is overweight

mom, dad, brothers, sisters, son, daughter. But one sister is an exercise fanatic, definitely no extra fat on her, all muscle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. We now know there is a genetic component to obesity as well

see that fat gene I referenced in the OP

Now that does not mean you give up with the genetic lottery.

As I like to joke, thanks mom and dad

:-)

[Lex]

75. Anyone truly interested in the topic should read the book "Good Calories, Bad Calories"

"Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health" ---->

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Controversial-Science/dp/1400033462/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235939988&sr=8-1

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. And also check out things like McKenna's I can make you thin

he's main contention is diets don't work, so listen to the body is the best way to go

[Political Heretic]

90. This thread is only alive because you people are acting like morons:

1)Anyone can lose some weight with a diet that takes in less calories than burned (healthy diet and regular exercise). People trying to use extenuating factors to try and argue that some people just can't lose weight are being absurd and are speaking beyond what evidence supports (TRUE)

2)However weight gain IS complex and affected by many factors, including other medical conditions which may impact metabolism or required medications which can increase weight gain. These and other factors can make weight loss for some people much more difficult, even though its still possible, than it is for other people. (TRUE)

3) Therefore, the most responsible attitude we ought to have as happy liberal minded people is not to assume anyone struggling with weight loss is merely undisciplined or lazy. However, those struggling with weight loss shouldn't try and pretend that they simply "can't" lose weight and its not their responsibility. People should be supportive and recognize that some people face an uphill battle with weight management that is much more difficult than it is for some other people. But it can still be done.

I say all this, as someone who weighs 230, but used to weight 185 and knows that I can again. However, I have hypothyroidism and required medication that has a side-effect of increased weight gain --- so it won't be easy.

Let's all try to take a balanced adult view of things instead of get into silly binary arguments, shall we?

[mudesi]

96. 99% Of Fat People Have Only Themselves To Blame

The excuses are astounding. Sure, genetics plays a role, and some people have it harder than others when it comes to losing weight.

But at the end of the day, people are fat because they stuff their faces with junk food and sit on their asses watching American Idol every night. People eat too much fast food. People don't exercise. People want to blame everything else but their own bad habits.

The fact is other countries don't have this epidemic, although some of them are getting there thanks to McDonalds and KFC opening up shop there. Go to Italy, or France, or Sweden. They eat healthy and they exercise, and lo and behold, they don't have an obesity problem.

[Odin2005]

110. Your moralistic stupidity and ignorance of genetic factors is what is astounding.

People in Italy, France, and Sweden still eat the diet they are genetically adapted to. Here in the US we have food that takes the diet of NW Europe and takes it to absurd and unhealthy extremes ad it's put in from of everyone, of NW European background or not.

[mudesi]

174. So You're Agreeing With Me, Then

People eat shit here. Glad we agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Ah another textbook example of our puritan thinking

[Obamanaut]

142. I think you have something here. So many folks don't accept the

calories in vs. calories out, but instead perhaps bought a bicycle which now sits unused someplace and suggest that a proper diet and exercise simply won't work, while holding a plate full of something which would have been better left at the store.

[nadinbrzezinski]

181. Calories in and out don't explain the whole of it

and that is the bloody point

If it did, 95% of dieters would be succesful in thier efforts

They are not

Science tells us now that it is beyond the ins and outs... much more complex

Google fat gene or set point theory and try to start the education process

As to the bike.... you are right, some folks do that. IN the process of finding the Gazelle a new home after upgrading to a new machine... which was needed, next

[Obamanaut]

211. Check this out. Look at multiple pictures of recently released POW's

(limited exercise, few calories in), or photos of citizens of places such as Darfur, Botswana, etc where there is likewise a limited amount of calories but plenty of exercise seeking food products - and you won't see many fat examples.

Google overeating, limited exercise, improper diet (we're talking entire food regimen here, not some fad eating program) and start your own education process. Get off the "machine" and get outdoors, get smaller plates and only fill them once per meal, eat smaller portions but more often during the day, don't eat after 2 hours before bedtime.

[nadinbrzezinski]

221. Again, not that you will get this

it is no longer as simple as math, that used to be the standard thinking... not any longer

Read the state of the art science

Then come back to me

You may want to start with set point theory and fat gene

[Obamanaut]

236. You may want to start with a "fat gene" and consider that one simply

cannot blame all the obesity woes on that one little gene. One must, if one owns such a gene, take extra steps - more vigorous exercise, fewer calories (make up the volume by eating lower calorie food products), actually use whatever exercise equipment one has purchased rather than letting it become a dust catcher or

continue to blame one's girth on that one poor little gene.

Google "fat gene" and you'll find a link to a nice article (in USA Today) telling you that if you have it you must work harder at fighting it. There are more links as well. Typing about it simply won't work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

240. There is more... as always

there is more than one fat gene

Depending on how many copies of the pesky gene, how many side effects

Chicken or egg with diabetes for example

Regardless, even by your own admission you have to work harder at it

Thanks.. for telling me and the rest, that it is not as simple as eating less and exercising more

In a few cases (among the grossly obese) the expression of this gene is down right scary

Could you imagine going through all your life hungry? No, they never fill full, period. Of course, that is a minority and this is where gene manipulation (someday, closer than we think) may come in

By the way, just like lap band surgery and some of other right down medical interventions, this will fall in that category

[Obamanaut]

243. "Working harder" means putting down the twinkie, exercising

more and eating less, not holding onto the twinkie with a death grip whilst bemoaning the fat gene in the system and placing the blame thereon.

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamanaut]

275. Deny, rationalize all you want, then head to the kitchen for exercise.

How's that working for you?

Ooh, and name calling. Make you feel better?

[Obamanaut]

278. Link to Twinkie nutritional data

nutritional information re ‘twinkie’ can be found here

http://www.thedailyplate.com/nutrition-calories/food/hostess/banana-twinkie

[eridani]

245. Of couse! Why didn't we think of that?

Put all fat people in concentration camps and in Darfur, and the problem is solved! Failing that, demand that people genetically inclined toward being fat voluntarily re-create the concentration camp experience.

[Obamanaut]

252. Or have the grotesquesly obese eat as though they lived in one

of those places.

[eridani]

253. Not possible to do voluntarily if you want to have a life

Extreme fasting killed hundreds of fat people in the 70s and 80s, and if you are enough of a sociopath to enjoy that, why not go for all the other disabled "useless eaters" as well?

[Obamanaut]

261. No one talking "extreme fasting" here. We are talking taking charge

of a part of one's life that is out of control.

If one has a "fat gene", then work harder to compensate for that gene. Working harder means being more responsible with eating - what, when, how much - as well as increasing exercise. Regardless of what you may have read in some of the posts, walking to the kitchen is NOT an exercise. Exercise elevates the pulse and breathing rate for a reasonable amount of time, most folks say at least 20 minutes.

Seeing someone on Oprah having the side of the house cut out so the EMT can get them out is indicative of one who has lost control, don't you think?

It is not necessarily easy. Even with thyroid issues (I take synthroid) I keep my weight at 200. I listed some of my stats in another post, but will repeat them here - age 66, 200 lbs, 68" tall, cholesterol and blood pressure in limits, no indicators of diabetes, resting pulse mid 50's, ride a bicycle, lift weights, do yard work at my house and sister's (total 8 acres), arms, neck, chest and belly such that neither Miz O or I am embarassed by me wearing a tee shirt out in public.

Heavy people can make all the excuses in the world - thyroid, fat gene, big bones, heredity - but the bottom line usually is irresponsible behavior, and thinking walking to the kitchen is exercise. Wake up and smell the twinkies, Dorothy.

[eridani]

264. Right. Just like people with gay sexual orientations need to work harder at not having sex

Fuck working harder to compensate, and fuck anybody who thinks they have a right to demand that of other people. People with fat genes have a right to normal lives. A balanced life should of course include physical activity, but to hell with all the shitstains who think that some people should be required to make it a miserable chore rather than an empowering enjoyable experience.

[nadinbrzezinski]

267. A concentration camp inmate ate on average 600 Kcals a day

they developed re-feeding syndrome, are you that fucking ignorant?

[Obamanaut]

276. Interesting you point out that 600 cal leads to thin. nt

[eridani]

207. Nonsense. Other countries are fairly close to the US in the prevalence of obesity

http://economicresources.blogspot.com/2007/10/obestity-epidemic.html
Overall, 24 percent of men and 27 percent of women seeing their doctors that day were obese, and another 30 percent of men and 40 percent of women were overweight, the researchers found.

That puts the rest of the world close to par with the United States, long considered the country with the worst weight problem. An estimated two-thirds of Americans are overweight and a third of these are



http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/46767.php
Nevertheless, life expectancies in Europe keep steadily rising. Of course they have universal health care.

[paulsby]

101. oversimplification

i have worked in the past as a personal trainer.

note that while i use the term "weight" in this post, i am actually referring to "fat" not "weight".

for example, if one uses weight/BMI, i am obese, yet i have 12% bodyfat. that's because BMI assumes "excess" weight is in fact fat. not necessarily.



i also compete as a weight classed athlete, so i have pretty good personal (and competitive ) experience with how to lose weight, gain weight, and manage weight.

i have trained dozens of women and men and i have NEVER seen a trainee who could not lose weight if they followed proper protocols.

there ARE a small percentage of people whose weight gain is almost impossible to reverse without medical assistance due to actual medical issues (thyroid hormones, etc.) but the VAST majority of people are obese because of their chosen behavior.

it does not mean it's not difficult to change. of course it is. but it is entirely an issue of free will and determination.

the CDC correctly says that the vast majority of chronic disease is caused by behavior (smoking, overeating, etc.) not by external forces.

the fact that the US has much higher rates of obesity than many other countries (even when accounting for differences in racial background, etc. so as to compare the same population groups) is proof that it's behavior based, not genetically based.

i don't "look down" on obese people, but i also don't assume that they are obese because of factors beyond their control.

individuals vary, but i know that statistically speaking, the VAST majority of obese people are obese because of chosen behaviors.

chosen (and learned) behaviors that are very difficult to change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Very much so since we know that rates of

low thyroid are incrasing at astronomic rates as well as Diabetes

both, to use the correct term, are comorbid factors in obesity

Hell, I'll use myself as an example,

Between the diabetes and the thyroid maintaining a HEALTHIER weight is a real strugle.

Am I a moral failure?

[paulsby]

122. that's a strawman

i never said it was a moral failing. so i'm not going to play that game.

i said that for the VAST majority of obese people, they are obese because of what they DO, not their genetics.

and that fact has been borne out.

note also that there are few diseases more preventable and more clearly caused by chosen behavior in a significant percentage of cases than diabetes. feel free to research that.

as somebody who has designed scores of diets for different needs (competition, fat loss, muscle gain, etc.), i could design a diet that would practically guarantee diabetes by age 40 if you followed it every day from age 20.

ironically, that diet would be not THAT different than the conventional american diet, sadly.

there are few things in our lives we have more direct control over than what we do (and don't) choose to stick in our mouths.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. And the science is proving that while lifestyle is part of the answer

it is not the full answer, not even close to the full answer

Some things in effect here, and I am talking of the morbidly obese

Many of these folks have diabetes, which alone makes loosing weight harder

They also have mobilty issues, again getting exercise is hard to do

There is also a deep psychological component, including addiction behavior

I'd sugest you go read the specialists in this, such as the specialist at the Brookhaven insitute. You are in for a shock as to how complex it is

Indeed eatying a full back of cookies is not exacly conducive to loosing weight, ask yourself WHY this is happening... far more complex than you think

And my moral failing came from a simple of life, MOST americans do believe, firmly, that this is a moral failing and if this was a matter of will, anybody could do it

As some of us have pointed out above, diets and life style changes have a 95% failure rate... so that should sugest there is more to this

[paulsby]

137. correct

lifestyle is not JUST the answer. genetics matter too. and choosing your behavior, at least partly based on your genetic propensities is part of the game.

for example. some people can eat literally metric assloads of dietary cholesterol and see little to no change in their serum cholesterol. others have to watch their dietary cholesterol closely.

some people thrive on higher carbs and should thus eat more fruits in their diets, whereas some benefit from proportionally more good fats and should eat more olive oil, etc and less fruits.

and this of course is also relevant to needs. a powerlifter in the superheavy weight class should eat differently than a marathoner.

in regards to diabates. yes many morbidly obese people have diabetes, which makes losing weight harder. my point is that in many cases, diabetes is an EFFECT as well as a cause. their diet practices CAUSED the diabetes.

and yes they have mobility issues. that's again CAUSED by the behavior that caused them to get obese in the first place.

one thing trainees learn is that it is much easier to maintain (decent) fitness than to achieve it. and certainly a morbidly obese trainee should not be doing the same exercise routine as some other trainees.

the fact that diets and lifestyle have a 95% failure rate does not disprove that for most people it can be (and will be) achieved through their own willpower IF they actually do what they are supposed to do.

that's difficult. it causes discomfort. people don't LIKE discomfort. people don't LIKE pain.

but that's what is necessary to achieve results.

as a competitive athlete, i choose to live with great levels of physical pain. that' a choice. unfortunately for somebody whose years of self-abuse has caused their obesity, they need to make a commitment to a painful, uncomfortable, difficult change in their life if they want to lose significant quantities of fat.

few worthwhile things come without effort and sacrifice.

nothing you said has disputed the science behind what i said.

to paraphrase something somebody once said about futures trading - it is simple, but it is not easy.

that is also true of fat loss. it is NOT rocket science, and it's not that difficult to grok. it is VERY difficult to execute because it usually requires enduring discomfort, hunger, pain, etc.

but you are not going to undo 20 yrs of abusive eating practices in a year or two without that massive effort.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. And you are discounting many of the other issues wiht it

Now you hit on the fact that hyperlepedimia can be genetic (check)

There is also a fat gene

And people with this gene, if every rat study done so far translates to humans, will gain weight and mostly keep that weight at faster, and harder rates than normals

The truth is, 95% failure rates tells you that lifestyle is not the only answer.

Of course there is also all the environmental issues that we are just starting to scratch. I'd hazard to say that in fifty years, assuming we are still around, we will realize that a side effect of the Green Revolution, was the crazy rates of diabetes... world wide, in populations previously unafected....

Increased yields, less nutrient dense foods... homeostasis... should I say more?

[galloglas]

170. Can you verify this??

"rates of low thyroid are incrasing at astronomic rates as well as Diabetes"

Not to be fussy, but this phrase or similar ones have been used over and over in this thread, without citing what rates (like, has hypo-thyroidsm risen from 2% to 4% ?? or 2% to 70% ??). Could you provide acceptable documentation.

Also, many here are probably well aware of the increase in diabetes, particularly Type II. But to in order to tie this to a weight issue, any figures should separate out that % of diabetes which have been caused by weight gain instead of other factors. In other words, show us reputable studies which document the % of increase in diabetes not not attributable to a person's weight or lifestyle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

183. The OP had articles linked to it

as well as links through the thread

But here you go

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/t/thyroid/stats-country.htm

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/epidem.htm

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=4243

http://articlesofhealth.blogspot.com/2009/02/diabetes-worldwide-epidemic.html

Google is your friend

:-)

[eridani]

208. Naturally, your paycheck would benefit if everyone spent all of their free time working out

What if you don't want to make a career out of exercising?

[AlCzervik]

105. Does anyone have the average height and weight of americansd by any chance?

recent numbers?

[cbc5g]

128. Obesity epidemic follows closely the widespread use of SSRI's

You'll never be able to lose significant weight on SSRI's and you'll be far far more likely to gain weight on them.

The only time in my life when I was fat was when I was on SSRI's.

[Political Heretic]

154. I'll happily trade being living in a constant state of dread for being overweight.

SSRIs are over-prescribed. But in some cases, when a person is carefully evaluated, they are the right prescription for quality of life.

Although, I'm still not convinced I can't lose weight if put my mind to it!

[Scout]

228. is Celexa an SSRI? n/t

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

149. HFCS

High Fructose Corn Syrup. Next time you buy something so simple as a loaf of bread, check out the list of ingredients. HFCS will most likely be one of the first listed ingredients. That stuff is deadly and it's made Americans and Britons fatter than any other people on the planet.

[Mike 03]

162. Sugar is sugar.

I used to be one of those "HFCS is the cause of this epidemic" believers, but like the "Vaccines cause autism" believers, it just ain't so.

A far more likely cause is hormone disrupting chemicals in cans and plastics.

[galloglas]

172. Check this out for yourself

Apparently, all sugars are not alike buty I haven't the notion to track the info down. But here is teh story.


Very recently it was found that HFCS is different than other sugars in that it seems to lack the ability to tell your brain that you have eaten and you are full. It is the brain that knows when to stop eating. But if the particular thing you eat, because of whatever modifications may be in that substance, does not signal your brain to stop then you will obviously continue to eat well beyond your needs.

Please Google it. I am sure it will turn up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. Mike they are in the infancy in the research about HFCS

that said, they are also in the infancy on the research on cans and plastics

So I cannot discount either of them yet, or both

I just keep my eyes peeled, but some teams do think how it is processed (which is counterintuitive at the biochemical level) has some effect

Also it may have some effect in how the body feels itself satiated

As I said, the research, in a serious manner, is just starting with both

And given HFCS was not something we co-evolved with, there might be something to it

Hell, here is a piece of trivia fer you. What do you recomend diabetics eat instead of sugar? Of course replacements right? Some diabetics spike far worst with splenda, and the rest of them than sugar. Odd indeed...

[CTyankee]

157. When I go to Europe, Spain and Italy, I never see obese people so I have to wonder why.

There are many Italian Americans who are obese, yet their relatives in Italy are not. They are not all thin but they are not obese.

The Spanish are thin also, altho they do smoke a lot, so that probably adds to their thinness.

I love the food there. It is fresh and delicious. They don't hold back the wonderful fats and proteins but they also have much smaller portions than we do. They drink wine with lunch, dinner and in between with snacks.

Wish we could address this phenomenom here...

[Mike 03]

163. Smaller portions and more walking? NT

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. You hit part of it, portions, and there are plenty of studies

as to how distorted portions look to most Americans

And that is partly our restaurants... which serve huge portions

I'll give you an example, I had a veggie burrito for dinner

That tortilla was three carbs, and the vegies were two to two and a half portions of vegies

I had not had much veggies during the day, so that was ok

The tortilla was too much, and the fats, probably two exchanges

I can do this in my head any more

Most people can't

When you go to Europe check the size of a Croisant, about 2oz... you try to sell that at the store.

:-)

Of course the other issue you hit here on the head is urban design. Hell some cities in Europe (Lisbon comes to mind) are far from designed for cars... so people walk, and walk a lot more than we do

[Matariki]

191. Were you mainly in big cities?

I noticed that there were more overweight people in smaller towns in Italy than in, say, Rome. Just like in the US really.

[CTyankee]

214. In Sicily I was in little towns, In Italy, I have been in pretty small towns

such as Lucca, Ravenna, Asti, Ferraro, Parma -- these are towns in the part of Italy that is renowned for its high cuisine, but also for their cheeses and sausages and they are NOT low fat! One of my greatest meals was in Bologna in a cafeteria, the likes of which I have never seen! What a layout of foods! Unbelievably gorgeous and wonderful. I held up the line because I literally couldn't decide what to have!

In Spain I was in little towns in the Basque lands but also in Pamplona, which isn't real big but is quite prosperous.

While I saw overweight, in the sense of older people with more girth around their bellies, they were not nearly as heavy as many people here.

And yes, places like Rome, Siena, Florence, Turin, Milan, and Venice (and my beloved Verona)people are especially fashion conscious (extra so in Milan and Rome). That is true.

In Sicily, mostly the people of all ages kept thin. I think it is because they have a pretty hard life there. And there are towns on lots of hilly areas and their flats can be 3 flights up with no elevators in their old buildings. None of these places seem to have clothes dryers, judging by the billowing lines of clothes drying on lines outside of windows everywhere in Italian towns and cities (in Palermo, I could have literally grabbed drying underwear from lower floor outdoor clotheslines!).

[eridani]

209. Except that you are wrong. Have no idea why you didn't see them. They are there

http://economicresources.blogspot.com/2007/10/obestity-epidemic.html

Overall, 24 percent of men and 27 percent of women seeing their doctors that day were obese, and another 30 percent of men and 40 percent of women were overweight, the researchers found.

That puts the rest of the world close to par with the United States, long considered the country with the worst weight problem. An estimated two-thirds of Americans are overweight and a third of these are

[CTyankee]

217. I wasn't in NOrthern Europe, if northern means Scandinavia, Poland, Russia, Germany, etc.

I wasn't in southern Italy either. I didn't get below Rome, in the Lazio region, and travelled north from there. In Spain I was primarily in the north, from Madrid and Toledo up into the Basque lands (Bilbao and some other towns and all the way up to the Pyrennees)and then on to Barcelona on the Mediterranean coast. But I did go to Sicily and did not see obesity there (see my answer in above thread which may explain Sicily).

Sorry my observations on half a dozen trips to these places doesn't gibe with that website.

I can tell you that I have never walked so much in my life as in these two countries. And the walking wasn't easy. Perugia, which I loved, was a challenge to see it was so hilly, and I can imagine what it must be like in every day life there. They even have city escalators there!

[eridani]

242. Statistically, however, people in other countries are about as fat as we are. My observations

-- in Northern Europe are that you don't see a lot of "toned" people. There are plently of the moderately plump that the American eye does not perceive as particularly fat. My husband remarked that the women of southern Germany looked like American women used to look in the 50s. However, you don't often see extremely fat people.

I saw many of the moderately plump riding bikes and walking. I really did a doubletake at the size of a couple of the flight attendants on the Dutch MartinAir--in the range of 170-200 lbs. Not too big to deal with the aisles, but totally unemployable in such a role in the US. In other words, I saw far more integration of the moderately heavy into society. They were able to have the same jobs as, and engage publicly in the same physical activities as, people of lesser weight. The result is that they aren't driven indoors to get really, really fat.

The article I cited just referred to averages and said nothing about standard deviations. I'd bet big money that the standard deviation for the American population is far higher than that for any European country.

[CTyankee]

258. As I mentioned, the smoking in Spain must have some effect on their weight.

Not so much in Italy, but more than here.

But here's the thing: you mentioned northern europe, which is your base for observation. Mine is in basically mediterranean countries. I wonder if the diet of the Italians/Spanish have a LOT to do with weight maintenance. Olive oil in particular. Lots of fish -- in Palermo I saw a fish market in early December that had a huge abundance of fresh catch on any given day. The women would go each day with their little mesh bags and buy it. Fresh produce was another. You never get a bad salad in Italy or Spain (altho in Spain for some odd reason a green salad doesn't appear on their menus, you have to know to order it and they typically serve it with a little bit of tuna on top). Meat sauces in the Emilia-Romagna and Veneto regions are typically made with panna da cucina (a kind of heavy cream with the consistency of our mayo), called ragu bolognese. I had it everywhere in those regions served in lasagna and atop spaghetti. You just don't get a large amount of the sauce, nor do you get a huge portion of the pasta. The panna is also used like mayo on their version of "wraps."

The interesting question is the role of wine in their cuisine. I wonder when/how these people work, at least in the cities, when I see them in sidewalk cafes drinking and eating from 11 am til late at night. Of course they do rest in the afternoons so I wonder how they "work it off." Still, we are told how bad alcohol is for us, yet these people drink far more than we do and the only drunks I see over their are American tourists...

Interesting note about olive oil: Italians don't dip their bread in it. I don't know where we go that idea. I've never seen it done and I've even been told my an Italian that they don't do it...

[eridani]

262. The article says that there are no significant differences between north and south

East and west, yes. Central Europeans are fatter than the French. I still think that what you are observing is that Europeans, while having roughly the same percent of fat people as we do, have far, far less variation in their populations' weight than we do. Therefore, you aren't going to see a lot of extremely fat people. That pretty much confirms my observations in the north.

[Mike 03]

159. You are most likely right: There does seem to be much more to this than meets the eye.

Thanks to posts like these, I've really backed off my simplistic "calories in calories out" stance about weight.

My parents have both struggled with weight issues all their lives, and so is one of my sisters.

[Mike 03]

160. Kick and Rec. At the very least, we need to be more sensitive to how overweight and obese people

feel, no matter what the cause is.

[AllieB]

164. We are not combustion engines. It's not as simple as 'calories in, calories out'

Read Gary Taubes 'Good Calories, Bad Calories'. We are too hormonally and chemically complex to reduce our physiology to the principles that govern a combustion engine.

A good article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E2D61F3EF934A35754C0A9649C8B63

A good movie:

http://www.fathead-movie.com/

[galloglas]

166. Please, please !!

I have found virtually NO scientific data of any credibility on either side of this debate... indeed, if there really are two. But, if the OP is to be given any credence then I suggest that buttressing the OP with some peer-reviewed articles from professional publications would be a good start.

When it comes to calories in=calories out, there are two equally valid proving points.

If one says it isn't as simple as "calories in=calories out", I can offer an argument that "proves" that is so. Simply feed a human on a diet of cottontail rabbits and, no matter how many calories of rabbits are eaten, the person will die of starvation.

How can that be? Simply because the intake, even at 10,000 calories per day, is almost entirely protein and cannot be converted to energy after the supply of body carbohydrate and fat is exhausted.

But, outside of extreme imbalances in the mix of carbohydrate/fat/protein, the "calories in=calories out" is largely true. Like gasoline combustion engines, the human combustion engine has a variance in efficiency from individual to individual. Consequently, some humans can process their fuel more efficiently than others.

But outside of the efficiency variable, a calorie of food is either burned or stored. To gain that weight, one must eat the food. Very simple. Perhaps it is the "Why is the food eaten at a particular rate above the rate needed for weight maintenance?" question that is being found as a tender point here.

IMHO, there is something very unnatural about the % weight gain in recent decades. There is more to it that mere gluttony, as some might claim. The why of it is something I am still wondering about. What I am able to see is that the body sizes of Americans compared to the Revolution, the Civil War, or the Depression is hugely higher. And I don't think those who are obese are that way by choice.

But if we are to discuss this as a real issue,we should address this as real science. Regardless of what we find as the answer, from the standpoint of economics, I believe we will find the American Corpocracy as the culprit in this tale.

[w8liftinglady]

169. I was the fittest fat person in 24 hr fitness.

I literally worked out 21 hours/week and stuck to a fairly sensible diet.Morbidly obese,yoyo weight gain.I tried everything.Gastric bypass is the only way I have kept my weight off.I was obese since I was 12 months old.And yes-I've been judged all my life by someone else's concept of beauty.I've learned to love myself,but no thanks to the assholes of the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. And that at times is the best you can do

love yourself

And I am glad the band worked for you

:hi:

I was well on my way, but that was thanks to medicines and other issues

Damn I am no longer a candidate, but that pesky set point has changed, so working at it every day....

[flvegan]

176. This thread has officially hit the "epic" mark.

Well done, folks!

[undeterred]

182. You don't know shit about the Puritans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

186. Please do enlighten me about this and the thinking about sin in religion

perhaps the term glutony will be familiar to you... and the obvious failing morally that it was.

[Writer]

189. Here's what I blame for weight gain in large populations:

MODERNITY.

[nadinbrzezinski]

192. Which goes with chemical additions in food

yep, that is the primary diagnosis

But there is more to it and ins and outs

:-)

[Writer]

195. And here's what I aim for by regularly exercising and eating relatively healthy...

FEELING GOOD.

As in: DO I FEEL HEALTHY? HOW'S MY BLOOD PRESSURE? MY CHOLESTEROL LEVEL? MY GENERAL MOOD?

And that's all.

At 5'8" and 163 lbs. or so, I'm on the verge of what a doctor would consider "overweight." I'm almost two sizes larger than I was in college, but I have a lot more muscle on me than I did then (and more fat, yes). In my late 20's I lost around 25-30 lbs. then two things happened about three years ago: graduate school and a knee injury. That slowed me down a bit.

Do I care about my pants size? No. Why? Because I can climb the stairs without panting, my mood is generally good (I deal with depression), and I'm capable of tackling an incredibly stressful academic load without suffering. Maybe my pants size will reduce again, but given my tall, medium-boned build, I somewhat doubt it.

And do I care? No. Why? Because my aim is to be HEALTHY, and I don't buy the ridiculous line that someone out there expects me to look like a supermodel. My doctor has never told me this, my husband has never told me this, and just because I see this image on a magazine doesn't mean that I'm forced to mirror it.

I'M in control of my life and my body. No one else.

I agree that we've simplified this discussion into a fallacious binary argument. I think we should angle for a more mature, nuanced discussion on the issue.

~Writer the Spinner~

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. My aim is similar to yours

and unlike you I have lost about fifty pounds, forty of which were courtesy of a diabetes medication

Three months, wow.

So these days I exercise (hell just replaced my Gazelle for a new ellyptical, which I just finished doing, wow much harder than my gazelle)

I also share the bad knees, aka the gazelle first and now the ellyptical, and I have to be careful when exercising

My goal is to keep my cholesterol down (that still meds, lucky me... won the genetic lottery, and me and the doc laugh, she says I'm one of the few people that laugh about these things)

I also aim at keeping my blood sugars under control

And I don't care what the larger society says I should like, or rather the media. But you hit on another aspect of this... see models, they are unhealthy in many respects (and the air brushing doesn't help) So in my view our society also needs a revision of what is healthy looking, which is far from the models in insert magazine here

By the way, me and doc are peachy keen that I have lost the weight I have, since it's been in a progressive manner over many years... three to be exact.

I know that perhaps I should blog about this, or just plain out do a book, not the fad diet book, since my method (Google I can make you thin) is simply intuitive eating. Listen to my body and I do much better.

Oh and cravings, they are gone

It is magical. I know I can have ice-cream and chocolate and all those "forbidden foods" if I feel like it... so there are no cravings any more

And yes, every so often, any longer twice a year, I enjoy a little ice cream, and I mean the enjoy part

[eridani]

200. Correction. The statement "I know I have no family history of diabetes" is wrong and nonsensical

You can know if you have such a family history, but you can never know if you do not. Diabetes used to be underdiagnosed far more than it is today. Life expectancy was less, and the chances you would die of something else before ever having noticable symptoms far higher.

My father and his mother were both diabetic, and I am insulin resistant. Suppose I had never known about my grandmother, and my father had died in a car wreck before age 55 when he was diagnosed. For the purposes of your typical study, that would make me someone without a family history of diabetes.

[Ms. Toad]

212. While we're on the topic of diabetes

as a broad brush, the assertion that "Diabetics have a hell of a time {losing} weight" is not accurate.

I personally know four Type II diabetics who drop pounds very easily (or were never overweight to begin with) - including my spouse who was never more than mildly overweight and dropped 20 lbs in about a month when she cut out the things she could no longer eat post diagnosis, then the problem became finding something she could eat to stop the weight loss. The other three are my uncle, grandfather, and a co-worker - all people I know reasonably well in terms of how difficult weight loss/maintenance has or has not been for them. Every Type I diabetic I have known (I can name a half dozen) has been skinny as a rail.

That is not to say that some diabetics have do difficulty with weight loss/maintenance (including my mother),but it is by no means universal.

(And yes, I know that having my grandfather and all of his descendants over age 55 - regardless of weight - diagnosed with diabetes means my turn is likely coming.)

[eridani]

213. That can certainly be true. Depends on how you are responding to insulin resistance

--as an individual If you are cranking out more and more to overcome the resistance, weight loss is nearly impossible. If your pancreas finally says "Fuck this shit! I've been overcompensating for 40, 50, 60 years and I ain't doing it anymore," the drop-off in insulin production makes weight loss inevitable. Unfortunately, your sugar control goes to shit.

That's starting to happen to me. I lost 20 lbs over the last year, and my a1Cs are over 7 for the first time. When my diabetic father after a lifetime of trying finally found it easy to lose weight (50 lbs in 18 months) he was dead six months later. Sometimes diabetes meds can produce weight loss without the sugar control problems in a lucky subset.

One out of 10 Type IIs are of normal weight, and this demographic has three times the morbidity and mortality rates of fat Type IIs. Among the Pima, where genetic diabetes is universal (owing to their long history of crop failures in 3 our of every 7 years on average), the women with the longest life spans are 200% of the actuarial ideal weight, and the men 150%. What that goes to show is that while high insulin levels certainly aren't good for you, less insulin and worse control is far, far worse.

[mimitabby]

218. I know a dozen guys

twenty five years ago, they were all slender to average, even buff some, and one was a little over weight.
let's fast forward to today. All but two are now obese.
They all made life choices. 11 of them bought harley davidsons and started touring.
1 of them bought a bicycle. one of the harley guys started karate.
10 of them got fixated on the high fat high protein diet and quit going on hikes with their friends because it got in the way of their bike tours.
I am really simplifying here, but the two guys who aren't obese are not on a starvation diet (in fact, they both eat a lot of the wrong foods) but they BOTH have exercise as a part of their life style. All the physical things they did when they were young together went away (they all used to go hiking together but because of foot problems & back problems they quit) but two of these guys kept exercising and the other 10 didn't.

I have photos from their reunions and i know their stories.

Everyone posting here is kinda right. it IS hard to change your life style. (but it can be done) most inexpensive food IS fatty and lacks goodness (but some of our ancestors ate fat sandwiches and didn't get overweight!)

If you are looking for a pill that is going to counteract whatever is "in the water" you're not going to find it.
Every medicine has its side effects, just as well as every exercise does too.

It starts with a single step. Walk to the end of the block and back first. Then walk around the block the next week. What did you like to do when you were young ? Did you swim? play ball? run? DO IT.

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. And the SCIENTIFIC literature would tell you that you are looking at exceptions

like I used my dad

He is very much so a piece of data... but not scientific data

As eridani pointed to you, there's plenty of literature in the subject of insulin resistance and diabetes type two

And a general statement, derived for the state of the science, that pesky thing, is that diabetics do have a harder time loosing weight. Part of the disease process

Now that does not mean individuals should use that as an excuse

Oh here is another shocker for ya

As research advances the forbidden list of foods has dropped, to the point that current thinking goes... if you want cake for desert, as in the fully sugary desert, with cane sugar, and your body can handle it... go for it.

When my dad was diagnosed over forty years ago carrots were in the forbidden fruit list... things evolve

[Ms. Toad]

237. I was responding to the blanket statement you made.

You did not qualify it as "many" or "most" - your assertion was a blanket one - which is proven false by a single counterexample.

As to forbidden foods - I did not say there was a forbidden food list. Although diabetics can handle small quantities, or infrequent larger quantities, of most anything, it would be virtually impossible to eat enough of things that generally mess with blood sugar, frequently enough, to stop weight loss at the rate she was losing. Consuming the added calories needed to stop weight loss is difficult without increasing the relative proportion of things that she needs to eat in moderation for diabetes management (sugar, and simple carbs, or large quantities of complex or high fiber carbs) or without increasing other things high calorie things that increase other risks such as heart disease (also a heightened risk for people with diabetes).

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. Whatever, the blanket statement applies to MOST diabetics

and those with Insulin Resistance,

There are a few... very few... who don't have these problems, usually in the LATE STAGE OF THE DISEASE, got it now? When the pancreas quits or is close to quitting, muscle and fat wasting (and weight loss) come with it. Now your friends may have an easier time keeping it off, or a harder time.. that goes for the population at large as well. If they are men, for example, they will also have an easier time loosing and maintaining weight... simply they have more muscle


And the forbidden list of foods, has increasingly diminished, and that was the point I made

In fact... now that I think about it... there is no longer a no food list.

[Ms. Toad]

246. The male/female split is even

and the two women are in the early stage of the disease. One documented to have had it no longer than 2 years because blood sugar was being monitored closely in connection following a first pregnancy in which she had gestational diabetes, but had normal blood sugar readings throught the start of her pregnancy. The second is also early stage based on the medication being used (and the quantity required) to maintain daily blood sugar and A1C levels in acceptable ranges. We cannot pin down when it started because blood sugar was not being regularly monitored prior to diagnosis, although it was tested at annual physicals and had not raised any alarms at the two physicals prior to diagnosis.

My point is you asserted that all diabetics have a hard time losing weight. That is the interpretation of a blanket statement that is not qualified by the use of a word like "some," "most," or "generally." That was my quarrel with your initial comment - as well as my quarrel with diabetes management in general. There are around 10% with type 2 diabetes for whom the disease is not linked to weight (if you want to call the 1.8 million people that represents "very few," be my guest). Those people are not being served well by either the medical community or by the secondary groups that support treatment (the advocacy organizations and nutritionists) because the treatment is focused almost exclusively on reducing obesity. My co-worker was told, point blank, by the nutrition counselor she was required to go by our health plan that they had no idea how to help her control her blood sugar levels because her weight was normal. So, yes, I get cranky when someone insists that all diabetics have a hard time losing weight. Got it?

[eridani]

239. Yes. That is the genetics of Type II. Weight gain does not set in until after young adulthood

You are ignoring the fact that "changing your lifetyle" will not prevent obesity and diabetes, unless you make extreme change your sole reason for being alive. What will happen is that weight gain is likely to get slowed down, and actual symptoms postponed by quite a few years.

In my life I've done quite a bit more than single steps, including training for and taking 3 week bike tours of 500 miles or so. My fully loaded touring bike weighs about 70 lbs, and sometimes it needs to be hauled up flights of stairs. I've not lost so much as a single pound as a result, ever, though I likely would be heavier if I hadn't done those things. My a1C values have stayed in the normal range until age 60, when they began a slow but inevitable move upwards.

Over the last year I've lost 20 lbs despite the fact that my ability to do aerobic exercise has been impeded by a severe sinus condition and my ability to do weight training by a bad case of frozen shoulder. And the weight loss is really, really bad news. What it means is that my pancreas has gotten royally sick of overcompensating for genetic insulin resistance, and it ain't marching anymore. Less insulin = automatic weight loss, no "lifestyle change" required. Also, unfortunately, less insulin = sugar control beginning to go straight to hell in an irreversible pattern.

[nadinbrzezinski]

268. You are looking at insulin in your future

but these guys have no clue what you are talking about

I know that's in my future as well

[eridani]

272. Yeah, I know. That's what the recent weight loss portends

I'm doing what I can to postpone it, but getting older and having regulatory systems get wonkier is just a fact of life. It beats the alternative, particularly since I've outlived my ancestors with the same genetics by quite a bit already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

222. The difficulty goes with the stages of the disease

early stage diabetics have a harder time loosing weight, plenty of literature out there

There is also an increased feeling that Diabetes type I and Diabetes type II are way generic and in the type II we have many subtypes

It is an autoimmune disorder, that's the new thinking

I'll use my dad as an example

As a younger man, closer to diagnosis he was never grossly overweight, but chubby

These days he is thin as a rail, after forty years after diagnosis

Type one diabetics tend to be thin as rails due to the disease process

They also will die within two years if they don't have access to insulin

Now folks who are insulin resistant, what some these days call pre-diabetic, have even more trouble loosing weight

Read the literature

If I went by family experience... half of the family is overweight and diabetic and has a hell of a time loosing, the other is thin and diabetic, so how that for generalizations

From scientific research, far more complex and depends on how aggressive the disease is as well

Then there are the side effects of some of the meds, such as Avandia, which have a bad side effect of gaining weight very fast

[shireen]

219. thank you!

I am overweight, and it's been a struggle to lose weight. Others make it sound so easy, and wonder why i don't lose weight knowing all the risks that come with it. It's infuriating.

BTW, I recently read about a correlation between sleep quality and obesity. Interesting ....

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. You welcome and I don't give up

can't afford to

But that does not mean it's easy

[undergroundpanther]

232. more ways life can make people fat & the power equation underling the puritan response

Thought I'd add some more to your info list of factors puritans ignore that are contributing to world wide rises in obesity....

A viral cause of obesity
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Fat-Virus--Ad-36-Blamed-For-Obesity-Epidemic-In-Australians-8534-1/
http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218391190

Remember the numbers overestimation done by the CDC,long forgotten? Its seems being a bit chubby is not as dangerous to your health as being underweight is.
http://docnews.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/2/6/1-a

Obesity caused by very efficient intestinal flora
http://www.drmirkin.com/public/ezine121607.html

Environmental toxins also contribute to obesity too.
http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/natural-health-articles/nutrition/environmental-toxins-fruit-veg-obesity-00337.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12006126
http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=120793680532167700


Obesity is a very complex thing.Some can lose weight with calories in -out and doing exercises, but how many manage to keep it off years after the loss?The diet industry is the the only industry that could have a 98% failure rate and still be in business.So very few dieters remain at the target weight after reduced calorie intake and exercise..WHY??
http://the-f-word.org/blog/index.php/category/diets/
http://www.bigfatfacts.com/

With the heaping shame this semi denied puritan 'ethic'way of thinking some people have and the social acceptance of hatred of overweight people,There is plenty of"motivation" most negative some positive heaped upon overweight people from the more 'fit'.As mean as it is you'd think we would all be thin considering the emotional suffering,and self consciousness,most overweight people endure living in a fat phobic culture..

Why do so many people think it’s better to be dead than fat?

http://adayinthefatlife.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/better-dead-than-fat/

"It’s about power.

Many people believe that they would feel powerless if they got fat. It would mean that they lost control of something that they feel responsible for. It would mean that they would be subject to the same harassment and prejudice they heap upon fat people/see heaped upon fat people daily. They believe that they would have no choice in who they sleep with, who they marry, which jobs they get, how much money they make, etc.

People would rather be dead than lose control/feel powerless. That’s where much of the suffering comes from in diseases that cause people to desire death as an escape.

Pain isn’t so bad when you know it won’t last. You don’t desire death when you stub your toe. When you are powerless to stop it and you know that you have zero control over it, pain can be unbearable. It is the same with emotional pain. It is the same with anything that makes people feel powerless. When you have no control over something, it can seem that the only way out is death.People believe that they would rather die than feel powerless. Some believe it so deeply that they attempt/commit suicide. "

That comment was from one of the respondents at the rather die than be fat link.I think that comment is at the heart of why so many people either mistreat fat people or enable the mistreatment,which in turn makes fat people feel even more powerless and the snide commentator feel for a moment at the fat person's expense,'empowered' by insulting what they fear,they are forgetting a fat person is still a vulnerable human being, in a world no one controls,like them self..
And when people feel powerless....it is a vicious personal/social circle. Tearing one person who symbolizes powerlessness down further so another person can have a feeling/fix of feeling in control/better than the other .Demeaning others IS an actual immoral choice, one can choose to NOT do to other people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. Thanks always looking for more info

to add to it

I read the Diabetes forecast at sis every month... and I have to kick their ass for having their editorial with the ever so popular eat less exercise more

They especially should know it is not that simple... even if it might work on a most simplistic of levels

[undergroundpanther]

235. Remember the power issues

underneath all the stubborn refusal to admit obesity might not be in the person's control to change. It has to do with the belief of human "free will" as an absolute rule in the way the world responds to humanity.Free will is not always applicable to life's events or changes,reality does not care about what we will to want happen in our lives..Reality does not exist to comply with humanity's individual's 'free willed'desires as much as some people want so desperately to believe.

If our wills are more complicated, if sometimes our 'free' will is not in control of one's body or person,just hearing the idea scares the hell out of some people. To dare to admit and recognize we do not have a free will that gives us control over our own lives ,not our own body or our own will is not'free' sometimes brings up the dreaded feeling of powerlessness,the ego seeing a threat to 'self' defends the 'self' to keep the lie about 'empowerment' going.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html?ei=5090&pagewanted=all

The bystander effect,the stanford prison experiment and others prove our own free will is not in control of our 'destiny' as much as some would like it to be..
http://www.cracked.com/article_16239_5-psychological-experiments-that-prove-humanity-doomed.html

Also it was recently discovered in a study that women cannot suppress appetite by will alone.
http://www2.kwdi.re.kr/kw_board/skin/news/view.jsp?bp_board=news&bp_bbsNo=217

And concerning studies of why we are fat,why people do the stuff they do,believe what they believe we are barely beginning to unravel it all,and sciences are so atomized and left brain dominated ,Not many people or scientists want to look at the bigger unflattering picture of humanity that is emerging..

[Obamanaut]

238. "Diets" do not work, and never have. That is why there are a bunch

of new ones hitting the popularity chart every year. A sensible diet, along with exercise, does work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5162825&mesg_id=5167016

“…Get off the "machine" and get outdoors, get smaller plates and only fill them once per meal, eat smaller portions but more often during the day, don't eat after 2 hours before bedtime…”.


And the snaky response was

221. Again, not that you will get this

Actually, as you can see by the post that you responded to and verified by the new thread, not only do I “get” it, but so do others as well. And it appears that you do also, but seem to want it to be your original idea. It isn’t.

Diet and exercise do work - “diets” do not. Eat sensibly, exercise, and the “fat gene” can be held at bay. Holding a twinkie and bemoaning a "fat gene" will lead to overweight.

And even with some medications for diabetes we find: “Avandia is only part of a complete program of treatment that also includes diet, exercise, and weight control.” It would seem from this statement that diet and exercise are important tools for overall good health.

BTW “lose” and “loose” are not interchangeable

[eridani]

244. If you define "working" as changing from being fat to being thing, diet and exercise do NOT work

Not in the slightest. Sure, the odds are that you will probably weigh a little less, and you are guaranteed to improve your health. Here's a clue for you though. 290 lbs - 30 lbe = 260 lbs = STILL FAT! What is it about the math that you are failing to understand?

Of course, you could always define success as living with fat genes and working on improving your overall health, but that is something the health Nazis refuse to do.

[Obamanaut]

250. And here's a clue for you. There is a 260 lb fat, and there is a 260

lb not fat.

I am a 5'8" tall, 200 lbs, 66 yr old male. I am not fat. My health care provider told me not to go below 190 lbs because of the way I am built it will make me look emaciated. I've lifted weights since I was a teenager, and while it's true my BMI is not what the height/weight charts suggest is ideal, I am not a blubbery mass with twinkie crumbs cascading down my shirt front. When the march of time begins to further encroach upon the body, as it surely will, I will reduce the number of calories consumed, and use lighter weights to compensate for the increased number of birthdays.

A bicycle, a 4 acre yard of my own plus another one that I tend for my sister, a shed full of weights, no sign of diabetes, no blood pressure meds, resting pulse rate in the mid 50's.

FYI BMI charts do not take into consideration muscular development, but rather are a simple ratio of height to weight and nothing more.

Many of the folks who suggest that sensible diet (not one from pills/packages/internet) and exercise won't help them lose their girth will be making that suggestion from in front of the teevee whilst licking twinkie filling from their chubby little fingers. Imagine that!

[eridani]

251. Bullshit. The suggestion is that weight loss hardly ever changes fat people to thin people

And i'm female with nowhere near the muscle mass you have. And statistically I'm going to outlive you neener neener neener. Why don't you just get a sex change if you are concerned with longevity? (I don't have to add the sarcasem icon, do I?)

Being active may well be preventing you from having high blood pressure, which is far more strongly correlated with lean body mass than with fat.

And here's another clue for you. If you weigh 300 lbs and lose 30 by adopting a more sensible diet, you weigh 270 lbs. That is STILL FAT. Or muscular, depending on your genes. Wanting more weight loss than a sensible diet can generally achieve is useless and stupid.

[dustbunnie]

255. This is a fact though.

As to your comment:

"Being active may well be preventing you from having high blood pressure, which is far more strongly correlated with lean body mass than with fat."

A gain in lean body mass is achieved through either physical labor or weight-bearing exercise. The more lean mass a body carries, the more the individual can eat without gaining weight. People in our society don't necessarily do much manual labor, but they can certainly increase muscle mass through regular exercise. People do it every single day.

The suggestion is that as people gain weight they tend to become more sedentary. As the fat increase takes hold, lean muscle mass decreases. That's why many overweight people claim they eat very little and still gain weight, or are unable to shed it. It takes little sustenance to maintain fat.

Those who embark on an exercise program which increases muscle mass, while maintaining a sensible diet that gradually reduces fat, do see dramatic changes in their bodies the longer they stick with it.

[eridani]

263. True, but not relevant to my point

Which was that high lean body mass, and not high fat mass, correlates to non-systemic high blood pressure. Of course strength training will not cause most people to bulk up that much, and the benefits are likely to exceed any risks. But if you are born to be someone with big bones, big muscles, and more fat than usual, it would probably be a better idea to focus more on aerobic work.

[dustbunnie]

257. What is it about lean mass versus fat that you don't understand?

Exercise to gain lean mass + sensible diet to reduce fat = leaner, healthier body. It's really that simple on paper. In real life, it also requires effort and commitment, but can be achieved by anyone, even those with fat genes or genetically inherited propensity to fat.

[cherish44]

248. Diet can help some

I find cutting down sugar did wonders for keeping my weight steady. Of course I'm forced to, I have type 2 diabetes...I've never been overweight (except for post pregnancy weight that about a year of HARD WORK to shed), adult diabetes runs in my family. But following a diabetic plan makes it a lot easier to maintain a healthy weight. That and I do exercise almost daily.

[cherish44]

247. I've been about the same weight for 20 years

in the normal range...not too skinny not too heavy. I have noticed I have to "work" at it more now that I'm in my 40s. I think exercise is key. You need that muscle mass to burn the calories when you get older and the metabolism slows down. And yeah it's twice as much work to keep the muscle it seems! But I love to exercise, I feel "blah" if I don't.

[TuxedoKat]

249. I think stress is

a much bigger component of why many gain weight in the first place and why it is so hard to take weight off too. Some studies address stress and weight loss but I think there should be more. Anyway, I heard a fellow talking about this on a radio program last week. Here's his website for anyone interested; www.gabrielmethod.com

I don't know him, don't profit from this, just many things he said made a great deal of sense.

[snooper2]

254. Another full of shit thread ( Something in the water )

Something in the fucking water- Jesus H. Christ. Why don't you find a couple published papers or articles from University journals to back your OP? soy-online-service from New Zealand- :rofl: :rofl:

The vast majority of obesity is due to changes in American lifestyles over the past 100 years....And you know this but choose to spew :puke: bullshit


Obesity Epidemic “Deadly” Result of Societal Shifts in the 20th Century

Experts Challenge Legislators, Educators, Urban Planners, Businesses, Nonprofits to Adopt New Tactics to Combat Obesity
WASHINGTON - In the latest issue of the journal Public Health Reports, nutrition professor Marion Nestle and nutrition activist Michael F. Jacobson recommend major governmental and societal changes to reduce the prevalence of obesity. The paper, “Halting the Obesity Epidemic: A Public Health Policy Approach,” urges legislators, researchers, educators, businesses, urban planners, transportation experts, and nonprofit groups to approach obesity in a more creative way and to take immediate action. Specific recommendations include:

Mounting large scale mass-media campaigns to promote healthier diets and physical activity;
Requiring chain restaurants to provide information about calorie content on menus or menu boards;
Designating more downtown areas as pedestrian malls and automobile-free zones; and
Having health insurance companies pay for effective weight-loss programs.
“Americans are consuming more calories than ever before, but certainly are not compensating with increased physical activity,” said Dr. Marion Nestle, Professor and Chair of the Department of Nutrition and Food Studies at New York University (NYU). “The ubiquity of fast food outlets and soda vending machines, the huge increase in portion sizes at restaurants, the decline in school physical education programs, and the many hours spent on the Internet and watching television are all contributing to the obesity epidemic.”
“Public health officials need to recognize that obesity is a natural consequence of an auto-oriented, TV-watching lifestyle. To prevent obesity, we need to change our lifestyle, not just admonish people to eat less,” said Dr. Michael F. Jacobson, Executive Director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI). “We need national leadership to get us out of the drive-thru and off the couch if we want to stop the epidemic of obesity.”
more http://www.cspinet.org/new/obesity.html




Obesity is an environmental issue
Received 17 December 1998; revised 15 June 1999; accepted 23 June 1999. Available online 9 February 2000.

Abstract
Obesity is an environmental issue. Societies that are transitioning to westernized lifestyles are experiencing substantial increases in its prevalence. The primary environmental determinants of obesity are high calorie intake and low levels of activity. Socioeconomic status and place of residence are important contributors. These factors together comprise an obesogenic or ‘toxic’ environment where the development of obesity is the expected course for humans leading lifestyles incompatible with their evolutionary development. Only by addressing and modifying the toxic environment will we be able to stem the obesity epidemic.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T12-3YHWPPD-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2057e4a3f741492b2615948de8e2d8d8




Health and Wealth: The Late-20th Century Obesity Epidemic in the U.S.

Jay Zagorsky
Ohio State University - Center for Human Resource Research
Abstract:
Obesity is a rapidly growing public health issue. This paper investigates obesity's relationship to individuals’ wealth by analyzing data from a large U.S. longitudinal socio-economic survey. The results show a large negative association between BMI and White female's net worth, a smaller negative association for Black women and White males and no relationship for Black males. Weight changes and dieting also appear associated with wealth changes. Individuals who lose small amounts of weight experience little change in net worth, but those who lose large amounts of weight have a dramatically improved financial position, with Whites showing larger changes than Blacks.

Keywords: Obesity, U.S. body mass index, BMI; Weight, Personal wealth, Net worth, Social status, Race, Ethnicity, Gender

JEL Classifications: I1, D31, J7
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=894295




The Price is Right: Economics and the Rise in Obesity

In 2003, U.S. Surgeon General Richard Carmona said in testimony before the House of Representatives: "I welcome this chance to talk with you about a health crisis affecting every State, every city, every community, and every school across our great Nation. The crisis is obesity. It's the fastest growing cause of death in America."

In 1943, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company declared "Overweight is so common that it constitutes a national health problem of the first order."

One thing is clear: The obesity problem didn't occur overnight. In fact, it has been emerging for decades but only recently has it reached crisis proportions and grabbed national headlines. While Americans at the turn of the 20th century may have aspired to be plump, by now most people are aware of the health problems associated with excess weight. Diet books top the bestseller list, the electronic and print media overwhelm us with nutrition do's and don'ts, but progress is slow or even nonexistent. The reality is that we eat too much and move too little.

Americans are indeed among the heaviest people on earth. Not only are we getting fatter, but we're doing it at a younger age. How we got to this point is a complex story with genetic, physiologic, psychologic, sociologic, and economic subplots. Here, we look at the economic plot line. But be forewarned. Economics does not provide all the answers. Even so, examining the past under an economist's lens may help us unearth and evaluate potential solutions.

Technological Advances Have Lowered the Price of Food . . .
Our story hinges on prices and income. When the price of something preferred falls, people acquire more of it by giving up things that have remained firm or risen in price. Conversely, when the price of something goes up, money is reallocated from it to alternatives. And when incomes rise, things that were formerly unaffordable—be it a second car or a second helping—are suddenly attainable.

While the money required to buy a product (market price) is usually the major component of price, its "full" price includes other costs like time costs and information costs. For example, the full price of a home-prepared meal includes the cost of ingredients bought at the store, travel costs to the store and back, the cost of time spent preparing the food, and information costs related to nutrition knowledge and cooking techniques. A change in any component of the price will change the incentive for consuming that product, as well as its closely related alternatives.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February05/Features/ThePriceIsRight.htm



Special Issue on Obesity, Lifestyle, and Weight Management



The International Life Sciences Institute (ILSI) Committee on Lifestyle and Weight Management initiated a project in 2002 to review and evaluate various components of lifestyle, principally diet and physical activity, as they relate to body weight management. The rationale for investigating these issues rested principally on the alarming increases in the prevalence of obesity during the last 15 years of the 20th century in most countries, as well as the adverse health effects associated with obesity.

My colleagues have presented excellent scholarly reviews of current studies related to lifestyle and obesity. In this issue of Obesity Research, Jeffery and Utter provide descriptive data on trends in environmental exposures and body weight, as well as data from randomized trials focusing on the influence of environmental factors and body weight change. In his article on self-regulation of energy and intake, Lowe evaluates evidence that weight-control interventions focusing on the availability, types, composition, and portion sizes of foods improve long-term weight control. Baranowski et al. review health behavior models used to identify the mechanisms, resources, processes, and procedures necessary for promoting change, and they suggest areas of research needed to integrate behavioral and biological approaches to understanding eating and physical activity behaviors. Wing discusses the progress in behavioral interventions related to the prevention and treatment of obesity. In his article on the challenges faced in combating obesity, Peters comments on the environmental, social, and economic forces that need to be addressed in order to have meaningful dialogue on obesity's threat to public health.
http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v11/n10s/full/oby2003218a.html





The Global Epidemic of Obesity: An Overview
BMI, body mass index

For centuries, the human race struggled to overcome food scarcity, disease, and a hostile environment. With the onset of the industrial revolution, the great powers understood that increasing the average body size of the population was an important social and political factor. The military and economic might of countries was critically dependent on the body size and strength of their young generations, from which soldiers and workers were drawn. Moving the body mass index (BMI) distribution of the population from the underweight range toward normality had an important impact on survival and productivity, playing a central role in the economic development of industrialized societies (1).

Historical records from developed countries indicate that height and weight increased progressively, particularly during the 19th century. During the 20th century, as populations from better-off countries began to approach their genetic potential for longitudinal growth, they began to gain proportionally more weight than height, with the resulting increase in average BMI. By the year 2000, the human race reached a sort of historical landmark, when for the first time in human evolution the number of adults with excess weight surpassed the number of those who were underweight (2). Excess adiposity/body weight is now widely recognized as one of today's leading health threats in most countries around the world and as a major risk factor for type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and hypertension (3).

This overview provides an introduction to this issue of Epidemiologic Reviews, highlighting, in historical perspective, key scientific aspects of obesity that are addressed by the 11 articles that follow. This compilation of reviews underscores the multidisciplinary nature of obesity research and the need to expand even further our scope to fully understand and confront the obesity epidemic.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE WERE NOT OBESE?
Until the last decades of the 19th century, developed countries were still struggling with poverty, malnutrition, and communicable diseases. These health problems were considered a major cause of low industrial productivity (4). In the first decades of the 20th century, studies of poor children indicated that dietary energy supplementation (adding sugar and fat to the usual diet) improved growth, which became an important approach to reduce malnutrition and improve industrial productivity. An influential proponent of improving health and nutrition of the working class as a means to improve overall economic productivity was Boyd-Orr (5), who later became the founding director of the Food and Agriculture Organization. A major initial goal of this organization was to increase the availability of low-cost calorie sources, primarily edible fats and sugars. Over the following decades, these efforts indeed led to major increases in the availability of dietary energy. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization, global food production by 2002 reached about 2,600 kcal per capita and is projected to reach almost 3,000 kcal by 2030 (6). Major contributors to total calories continue to be refined sugars and vegetable oils. While extreme disparities in access to adequate food availability continue to affect millions of people, there is no question that our ability to ensure stable production of dietary energy is one of the major achievements in human evolution.
http://epirev.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/29/1/1

[Obamanaut]

260. Splendid response! I think twinkies, fries, burgers and teevee are

the greater culprits, much more so than the imaginary water demons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. So SCIENCE is a figment of my imagination

how puritan of you

[Obamanaut]

277. Was "puritan" the word of the day on some puzzle? nt

[eridani]

265. God, those horrible, horrible lifestyle changes

How did we ever tolerate increasing life expectancies from 49 years to 79 years? How rotten! And why don't people just DO SOMETHING to avoid living in an industrial society where most work is sedentary and there is enough to eat? Like decide to not live in such a society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

269. So you are telling me, after looking at all this that the FTO gene is a figment of my imagination

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1141634v1

Obesity is a serious international health problem that increases the risk of several common diseases. The genetic factors predisposing to obesity are poorly understood. A genome-wide search for type 2 diabetes susceptibility genes identified a common variant in the FTO gene that predisposes to diabetes through an effect on body mass index (BMI). An additive association of the variant with BMI was replicated in 13 cohorts with 38,759 participants. The 16% of adults who are homozygous for the risk allele weighed about 3 kilograms more and had a 1.67-fold increased risk of obesity when compared with those not inheriting a risk allele. This association was observed from age 7 years upward and reflects a specific increase in fat mass

And there is more

The Obesity-Associated FTO Gene Encodes a 2-Oxoglutarate-Dependent Nucleic Acid Demethylase
Thomas Gerken,1 Christophe A. Girard,2* Yi-Chun Loraine Tung,3* Celia J. Webby,1Vladimir Saudek,3 Kirsty S. Hewitson,1,4 Giles S. H. Yeo,3 Michael A. McDonough,1Sharon Cunliffe,4 Luke A. McNeill,1,4 Juris Galvanovskis,5 Patrik Rorsman,5 Peter Robins,6 Xavier Prieur,3 Anthony P. Coll,3 Marcella Ma,3 Zorica Jovanovic,3 I. Sadaf Farooqi,3 Barbara Sedgwick,6 Inês Barroso,7 Tomas Lindahl,6 Chris P. Ponting,8|| Frances M. Ashcroft,2|| Stephen O'Rahilly,3|| Christopher J. Schofield1||
Variants in the FTO (fat mass and obesity associated) gene are associated with increased body mass index in humans. Here, we show by bioinformatics analysis that FTO shares sequence motifs with Fe(II)- and 2-oxoglutarate–dependent oxygenases. We find that recombinant murine Fto catalyzes the Fe(II)- and 2OG-dependent demethylation of 3-methylthymine in single-stranded DNA, with concomitant production of succinate, formaldehyde, and carbon dioxide. Consistent with a potential role in nucleic acid demethylation, Fto localizes to the nucleus in transfected cells. Studies of wild-type mice indicate that Fto messenger RNA (mRNA) is most abundant in the brain, particularly in hypothalamic nuclei governing energy balance, and that Fto mRNA levels in the arcuate nucleus are regulated by feeding and fasting. Studies can now be directed toward determ

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1151710

Of course there is even more

besity Gene: Mice Lacking FTO Gene Burn More Energy And Do Not Become Overweight
ScienceDaily (Mar. 2, 2009) — Obesity has become an epidemic in many parts of the western hemisphere; over 30% of the population of Germany are overweight.
See also:
Health & Medicine
Obesity
Diet and Weight Loss
Gene Therapy
Genes
Human Biology
Diseases and Conditions
Reference
Overweight
Body mass index
Cellulite
Huntington's disease
Scientists from the University of Cologne, in cooperation with scientists from the University of Düsseldorf, have been able to verify the relevance of a certain gene with regard to obesity for the first time.
In 2006, scientists discovered increased amounts of variations of the FTO genes were in overweight people. However, the relevance of this gene and its regular function remained unclear for a long time.
The team working for Prof. Dr. Jens Brüning, coordinator of the Cluster of Excellence "Cellular Stress Responses in Aging-Associated Diseases", CECAD Cologne, and Prof. Dr. Ulrich Rüther, University of Düsseldorf, have now been able to show that mice which do not have FTO gene, burn more energy and do not become overweight.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090227072648.htm

Try to keep up,

There are societal reasons why we are seeing this, but there are also genetic reasons

Free clue... please answer the question... how many times in human history have we lived in a constant (relatively speaking) time of plenty?

If you answered NOW... you'd be correct

So while you look at social science, some folks are looking at the actual science behind it

Now from social science, yep, you have a point, see times of plenty

[krabigirl]

256. I just wish we'd treat obese people as human beings.

[nadinbrzezinski]

270. It is one of the last things we need to do as a society

Unfortunately there is always a group that is blamed for all kinds of ills in any society

Fat people are easy targets

[havocmom]

279. Econimics, mild depression, powerlessness.... it has impact too

Can't afford to travel, do a lot of entertaining things, buy materials for hobbies, but can get cookies... Can't get the wife, husband, kids fancy presents and surprised, but can make cake....

Simplistic sounding? Perhaps, but it is part of the reality for more and more people.