Mexico in free fall (and this will move north)

[nadinbrzezinski]

The crisis consists in nothing less than an effort by the major drug cartels to tame and suborn the Mexican state, and not just in the strip along the US border, though the epicentre of the crisis is there. Obviously, the cartels' leaders do not have designs on Mexico's presidential palace. But, through a policy of terror extending from Oaxaca in the south, through Acapulco on the Pacific coast, and up to the great border cities of Tijuana and Juarez (Mexico's sixth and seventh most populous cities, respectively), they have made it abundantly clear that they are trying to achieve impunity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/25/mexico-drugs-trade

Fact is that this didn't start last night, or last week.

And This is not only an internal threat, a war in Mexico, but will pose a threat to the US. it already is

[WCGreen]

1. And yet, what will we do...

Build a fence, put patrols along the border...

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. deploy the army once it is too obvious you cannot stop it with police alone

that is exactly what happened down there

I still remember the early shootouts, cops with 38s trying to face off against AKs fun days I tell you

That or legalize the crap and heavily, heavily tax it and regulate it.

(and of course use police to regulate not arrest)

[defendandprotect]

58. It couldn't be going on without corrupt politicians and corrupt police enforcement . ..

too much money is involved in this and we are enriching criminals ---

and breeding crime.

There is NO other way other than to legalize it --

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I'm not arguing with you

and this goes anywhere you have this.

The war on drugs has engendered a group of people, on both sides of the law, with an interest of keeping it going. It is very profitable

[aquart]

2. Legalize. Crash their market.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Convince the feds, not me

been saying that for the last fifteen years

:-)

[Divernan]

5. I recently heard from someone high in DHS re conditions on the border

She was down from DC and was taken on a patrol along the Mexican border. Said that Mexicans were crossing in huge numbers, even though the Border Patrol SUV was right there. Said there were too many people crossing to be stopped. On edit: these were not drug gangs crossing, but Mexicans desperate to get to the US to find some work.

She also said the opinion of the US Govt.officials working on the border is that Mexico is "a failed state". The Mexican drug cartels are considered more insanely violent than the Columbian drug cartels, who are regarded as barbarians. The Mexican drug gangs murder by decapitation, throwing the heads of their victims into the Mexican police stations, as their sign of contempt for authorities. The Mexican drug gangs have moved across the border into some major southwestern US cities and are killing by decapitation there as well. The drug gangs are extremely well armed with guns imported from the US.

As you say, this has not developed overnight. What was the US thinking of entering into and remaining in NAFTA, when Mexico is so lawless?. There is still talk of opening our borders for traffic without visas or passports, or even requirements as to uniform safety inspection of trucks and vehicles. The European Union does not put up with any such dangerous crap from member states. Former soviet satellite countries/Eastern European countries which wanted to join the EU had to get their crime under control and countries in good working order first.

Finally, the US, through our arms merchants and lax gun laws, is providing both the weaponry and the demand for illegal drugs which fuel the violence in Mexico. Shame on us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. NAFTA was about cheap labor

chiefly

And Mexico was not a failed state back then

As to the drug war moving north correct, fifteen years for similar conditions.

[defendandprotect]

62. Consider that Mexico BUYS/supports a huge part of our debt -- they lend us money -- !!!

Why hasn't Mexico been investing in their own nation --

creating their own jobs?

I think the answer is all too obvious!

[barb162]

98. That's not correct at all. Think China and Japan

unless you have links to prove otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

108. What's not correct . . . ??

Are you saying that Mexico hasn't funded our debt?

[barb162]

109. Mexico does not fund a "huge" part of US debt.

China and Japan do.

[Hannah Bell]

112. US workers fund the biggest part. As of Nov '08, the US gov owed

~700 billion to China & ~600 billion to Japan, whereas it owed ~2 trillion to US workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Yearly borrowing from surplus SS was higher at that time than from any country, don't know how things look now.

But the "we're trapped by our debt to China" meme is bs.

Not commenting on your post specifically, just throwing it into the discussion.

[defendandprotect]

120. Mexico has long supplied cheap labor for America -- AND fund our debt -- !!!

INTERNATIONAL OWNERSHIP OF U.S. DEBT - - SOARING - - now $12.5 Trillion

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/debt-nat.htm

So -- I'd suggest there is enough of it to go around --

I haven't seen specifically what Mexico gives now or over the past --

but the question is why would Mexico be funding our debt and not creating

jobs in Mexico?

Again -- the answer seems obvious ---

They have long supplied cheap labor for America.

[barb162]

97. NAFTA was an enormously dumb free trade deal.

We have to get that border straightened out and protected already.

[Thickasabrick]

6. We should just nationalize Mexico, clean out all the bad managers

and shareholders, then give it back to them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Now that is a recipee for guerilla warfare

[Thickasabrick]

21. I was being facetious which was probably very stupid in light of

how serious this is and could be. Sorry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. No worries just that in Mexico 1848 is still ever present, like the smelly uncle

Yep, Mexicans still remember that war... very well

[Lost in CT]

32. Well our white guys beat their white guys fair and square. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Read some mexican history because you are way off as to who or what

was the officer corp of the Mexican army, or for that matter the soldiery

Suffice it to say white was not the dominant skin color

[Lost in CT]

69. As you can see below the Mexican leadership was caucasian.

Their Guys

President Valentín Gómez Farías



General Antonio López de Santa Anna



Our Guys

President James K. Polk



General Zachary Taylor




As for common foot soldiers all I could find on a quick survey was St. Patrick's Battalion



Primarily made up of Irish and German immigrants, the battalion also included Canadians, English, French, Italians, Poles, Scots, Spaniards, native Mexicans and Swiss, mainly Roman Catholics.


The Mexican ruling class was always French and Spanish. It should be no surprise that their officer class would reflect this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Criollos and Santa Ana had indian blood

sorry, does not wash

Now those who opposed Santa Ana in that disaster were Criollos who were conservatives

Like oh Lucas Alaman

Problem is that your definition of Caucasian would not work in their way of thinking, shocking?

[Lost in CT]

83. Lucas Alaman?

This guy?



Look I consider a white guy as a guy that is well white.

And yes I include Spanish people in the I am white category.

A little indian blood does not make one Non-cacasian... or we would be talking about Burt Reynolds quite differently.

And being Mexican and Hispanic does not make one automatically non-white either.... unless you want to explain Charlie Sheen to the audience.


There is no shame in this. It is a simple fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Yeah but you are the one making the racist statement

they themselves didn't consider themselves white.

Sorry

Now don't get me wrong, there was plenty of racism, especially coming out of the Colonial period, where the Criollos were in charge, and to this day there is plenty of that, not openly

But you are the one using a very loaded term, caucasian, to explain this war,

Free clue, the soldiery of the Mexican Army, unlike the Murican Army, didn't have that many Criollos, except for some of the officers, Not all of them were Criollo either.

Try to open your mind to the idea that not everybody in the world uses this racial classification

Hell, most historians (I happen to hold a Masters in MEXICAN hsitory, slightly before that period is my specialty) know that Criollos do not see themseles as white, but as the sons of Spaniards... given many Spaniards are not white either... in the classic nordic classification that historians abandoned a while ago... see why this a problem?

Now if you said our Protestants beat on their Catholics, you'd have a better point. In fact, a much better point, thanks to Lucas Alaman for making that point after the war.

[Lost in CT]

104. European settlers (Spanish and French) who recently won Independence

from their European homeland went to battle with other European settlers who also (relatively) recently won independence from their european masters.

One group won do to better weapons and better tactics.

Neither side were Boy Scouts by any means.

White Guys that I used is a crude shorthand I admit but these was not a war of Europeans vs. Natives. This was a war between two young independent countries one of which had its shit together and one of which didn't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Spain, France... okie dokie....

I'll leave it at that...

Actually I'll have to add this... there were NO FRENCH settlers in Mexico, for the most part, as Mexico was NOT a french colony

Some immigrants came after 1821 leading to one of the funniest wars in the history of the world, google it up, guerra de los pasteles

[Lost in CT]

126. Quite familiar with the Pastry War though I admit I mistakenly

thought Napoleon III was pre American invasion but of course he popped in around 1862.

I threw the French in there for giggles and for history buffs. Obviously the vast majority was Spanish with a smattering of other Europeans.

[Hannah Bell]

114. "Criollo" = Spanish born in Mexico, no Indian blood.

"Criollo is a term that dates back to the Spanish colonial casta system (caste system) of Latin America. It referred to a person born in the Spanish colonies deemed to have limpieza de sangre (literally, "cleanliness of blood") in respect of an individual's purity of European (Iberian) ancestry."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criollo_(people)




doing a fair job hyping the breakdown of mexico these days, i see. moving from hyping the need for taxpayer bailouts to save the investor class.


hmm, how are the two hypes connected?

[L. Coyote]

88. We killed them. That's real fair? And then we stole half their country! That's real fair?

You remind me of the Republicans that sad we should rule pole to pole because of the moral superiority of our race.

[Lost in CT]

103. I was going to write a lengthy explanation this morning

but a la izquierda did a better job than I ever could.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5136770&mesg_id=5138452

[a la izquierda]

101. Oh goody...

white wasn't a concept that mattered in Mexico. It is now (maybe)-for instance, in Guadalajara, where I live, no one really considers me "white"...I'm a light-skinned Mexican to them, which means my parents aren't indigenous--none of that is true, by the way, but that is the impression that Mexicans have about me. When I tell them I was born and raised in the US, they shrug their shoulders and say "Well, you look Mexican".
What the Mexican population reacted to in the 1840s was an invading army and that mindframe dictated their activities for a long time afterward, always in the back of their head until the Revolution (and I think one can argue, until well after that).
Criollos (creoles) were men/women of Spanish descent born in Mexico.
Peninsulares were men/women of Spanish descent born in Spain. Of course, these distinctions were a bit less important by 1848, but there are still places in Mexico called "Gachupines", a slang term for Spaniard. And the distinction ebbed and flowed, depending on the circumstances and whether or not Mexico needed a bugaboo upon which to turn their anger.
Indios/indigenas/naturales are Mexico's indigenous peoples. Don't call them indios. It's really rude. But people here do, if they're not indigenous.

The leaders of Mexico used Indians when they needed them, i.e. the Independence movement. There was no brotherly love...in many ways there still isn't. It didn't matter one iota that Benito Juarez was indigenous. His legal proceedings displaced indigenous Mexicans of their communally held rights, rights that they had had since the Spanish came and muddled everything up. If they couldn't produce title, they had no legal recourse, because the legal means to fight the state were economically out of their reach. He was no blood brother to the indigenous peoples. Neither was Porfirio Diaz, or Victoriano Huerta, two other Mexican leaders with indigenous blood.

During the Mexican-American War, the US won "fair and square" as you suggest because Mexican political parties couldn't get their act together and unite, as a nation, like they should have done after Independence. In effect, Independence didn't end in 1821, it ended with the ascendancy of Juarez to the presidency after the victory over the French in 1867. Only then did one political party have the strength to make their political ambitions the law of the land...on the books (the Constitution of 1857)-but it took another international invasion to make Mexican politicians and citizens realize that if they didn't get their shit together, they could count on becoming another colony. And they did. They beat the French and then Liberals and Conservatives (in a very, very different sense from our own) fought it out, with the victorious Liberals taking the helm.

Mexican land was stolen by the US only inasmuch as they had ineffectual leaders who really, really sucked at doing what was best for their country in the 19th century instead of what lined their pockets (And trust me, I don't defend US policy in Latin America often). Fortunately, American presidents were racist sons-of-dogs, because they might have simply taken the whole country, if not for the "brown" people living there.

Sorry for the long post. Americans know entirely too little about Mexican history, while Mexicans know much more about our own. I'm finishing a PhD dissertation in it, so I feel like it's my duty to do a little teaching on here when the need arises...the post wasn't directly aimed just at yours, FYI, but at the general tenor of this line of discussion.

Saludos.

[Lost in CT]

102. Thank You...

:hi:

[a la izquierda]

105. no problem...

it's why i do what i do. :)

[defendandprotect]

121. And didn't "white guys" beat "white guys" for this continent . . .?

Did our "white guys" beat British "white guys" ---

but I guess we have to mention the Native Americans in there somewhere . . .

Oh, they sold Manhattan Island for $24.00 --

and couldn't drink--!!!

just in case . .

:sarcasm:

[Lost in CT]

127. Yes and you have to include the French (French Indian war) and the Spanish (Florida Georgia) nt

[Renew Deal]

44. lol

:rofl:

[Greyhound]

45. Good idea, but let's start here. n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. I think it accelerated with the stolen Presidential Election in Mexico in 2006

When the Corrupt Conservatives PAN stole the election and then started to cripple the middle
and poor classes even more.

http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=2633

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. You forget one small detail

Fox was bout to do something intelligent, start the path to legalization, The gang in DC pressured Fox not to, and Calderon has gone absolutely nuts

Some in mexico call him little bush

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. Obrador's win would have started the country on a progressive course

Calderon is a neo con and has put additional burdens on the middle and lower class.
The result is the growth of the cartels.


Obrador wanted legalization and had been running on a progressive platform calling for greater aid to the poor; free medical care and food subsidies for the elderly; the rewriting of NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement; and the end to the further privatization of the country's oil and gas industries.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Here is where they have done so far, I have family down there so I keep up

Free medical care for those born under Calderon's administration, check...

(LIke to see it more extensive but hell, take what you can... and the kid of one of the ladies that works for my parents, they insisted she stay with them and pay for part of her care, has that care now)

Food subsidies for the elderly, check....

Greater aid for the poor, mostly smoke and mirrors

Rewriting of NAFTA, we need that, but hey... we need that from DC as well

Further privatization led to a nice standstill in the Congress... they passed a much weakened law from what Calderon wanted... and as is... the oil reserves are on the south side of production and people know this. As is, that is far more complex than just a small post on the web could hope to explain. Though it has proven highly entertaining as an observer. Hell, I wish our critters showed half the stones for five minutes,

Not to say that Obrador wasn't a good idea, he was, but knowing a little of mexican politics, I have no clue just how much he could have done

Now lets go down the path of the things Calderon has done that many question, why they call him little bush

Internal Security State, think Patriot is bad? These days we watch AGAIN what we say on the phone... on both sides of the border

Deploying the army has proven a small disaster for many reasons

Expansion of the war in Chiapas

And so it goes

People suspsect that the next election will be won by the PRI... assuming they don't run an idiot, again.

On and he is not a neo con... he is a neo liberal, small but important distinction, a member of the third way club... by the way so was Clinton and Blair.

[a la izquierda]

8. The amount of coverage this has been getting

in the US over the last few weeks is interesting. I think people here in Mexico have been wondering when the hell the US would pay attention. I also think Mexicans are afraid of what this terribly negative press is going to do to a country who profits nicely off of tourism-and that is suffering mightily in bad economic times. People need to be constantly reminded that Mexico is a very large country, and in many places, there is next to nothing out of the ordinary going on (albeit besides normal crime). I live in a very large city where narco stuff happens...but unless I read a paper or watch the news, I never hear/see it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. I was a volunteer medic when this started in Tijuana

and I see the same pattern where I live in the States

My parents live in a very large city, the capital, they don't go out at nght

[a la izquierda]

16. Eek..

I don't live near the border in Mexico...or in the US for that matter. So I tend to have a slightly less frightened attitude about it. But in GDL, where I'm at most of the time in Mexico, I tend not to venture out much at night either-I'm a girl, so it's not recommended.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I'm a girl, did the overnight shift

at one time my partner was also a girl

:-)

Fun times I tell you

Especially when the shootouts started.

[TBF]

29. You won't find me out and about Houston at night - out here in the suburbs

it's ok, and some neighborhoods in Houston are fine. Some are dodgy day or night.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. South East SD and LA have that problem as well

that said, rarely do we get the distinct sound of AK fire in the night.

Now south of the border that is now a current occurrence

We have violence in our cities, and here is the salient point, the pattern is now similar to what I saw as a medic fifteen to twenty years ago in Tijuana. It started the way we see it now in American cities.

Disclaimer I don't live in any of these areas... thankfully

[Divernan]

24. I have loved diving in Cozumel, and my son just had a great 2 weeks in Oaxaca

Mexico has many wonderful people and great places to visit.
Here's part of my son's diary:
Jan. 27. After a cuitlacoche omelette in Mexico City, I subway, walk, bus rapid transit, first-class bus (6 hours), and taxi to mile-high Oaxaca city, where big bands perform in the zocalo and a seriously hot jazz trio plays in smoky little Club Bongo.
Jan. 28. Street foods, street life, colonial architecture, Mexican hot chocolate, and the psychotically opulent Santo Domingo cathedral entertain.
Jan. 29. Begin Spanish classes.
Jan. 30. 5.5 hours of Spanish class is too much, but the mole-cooking class afterwards was fun.
Jan. 31. Unable to get tickets to a rare night-time opening of the spectacular Monte Alban ruins, my newly arrived NA friends and I instead walk through the sleepy San Felipe del Agua village and stargaze from a mountainside pasture.
Feb. 1. We take a 'second-class bus' (true public transit) to see the millennium-old Zapotecan ruins at Mitla.
Feb. 2. Today we travel in gringo-yuppie rental-car style to squeeze in visits to both the Monte Alban mega-ruins and the village of Teotitlan del Valle, famous for its weavers.
Feb. 3. Bad planning sticks us in the beautiful and historic, but noisy and trafficky, city of Oaxaca for one more day.
Feb. 4. After an overnight bus ride to the coast, a delightful canoe tour of a tropical lagoon culminates in getting to release a baby Olive Ridley sea turtle into the Playa Ventanilla surf at sunset.
Feb. 5. Chillaxin' in the sleepy town of Mazunte: frisbee in the surf, hiking the coastline toward Punta Cometa.
Feb. 6. I repeat the turtle/lagoon/birdwatch/crocodile tour with Tom; this time we get to release green sea turtle babies into the surf.
Feb. 7. At the neighboring Euro-scene beach town of Zipolite, we try surfing, skinny-dipping, and lounging in a canopy bed suspended above the sand.
Feb. 8. Impromptu snorkel tour includes dolphins and manta rays bursting from the water and my Bond-esque dive to rescue my fallen snorkel pipe from a garden of sea urchins 20 feet beneath the waves.
Feb. 9. After my friends depart, I hike alone and watch gray whales and manta rays from the weirdly eroded sandstone cliffs of Punta Cometa.

Feb. 10. Morning bird-watching from my roof-top hammock leads to a colectivo taxi (a/k/a the back of a pickup truck) ride to Pochutla and a hair-raising, six-hour van ride over narrow mountain roads back up to Oaxaca.

Feb. 11. I mountain-bike through the pine forests of the 10,500-foot village of Cuajimoloyas and over to a fireplace-heated cabaña in the tiny village of Llano Grande and some of the brightest stars I've ever seen.

Feb. 12. I try to keep up with my Zapotec guide Jose (with his Cannondale and bike cleats) as we bike through cloud forests and trails covered in long pine needles.

Feb. 13. From Oaxaca city to Los Angeles by taxi, long-distance bus, Mexico City taxi (with obnoxious, wolf-whistling, texting-while-driving driver) and 737.

[a la izquierda]

100. Cuitlacoche is gross, lol.

You did southern Mexico. I hate you (not really)-I'm totally jealous though.
In the photography forum, I posted pics of a recent trip in San Luis Potosi. I know all about hair-raising road trips. Luckily, I was in a car driven by my friend and not a guajolotero (aka chicken bus, or more correctly, turkey bus).

[NashVegas]

13. It's Hard To Imagine the "Minutemen" Aren't Getting Hard-Ons At the Thought

Don't tell me they wouldn't love carte blanche deputization to shoot up a few.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. They will last five seconds, and the few that survive the first volley will run

the firepower that the cartels can bring to bear is enough to warrant a military force. Not even them, have that crap in the volume necessary. Hell it takes SEVERAL SWAT teams to equal those idiots when they go on the prowl

Now lasting five seconds... will not go there

[NashVegas]

22. Fine, Then

Turn Subcomandante Marcos loose, because it strikes me that what's happening in Mexico is as coincidental to what's happening in Italy and Eastern Europe as is what is happening in the boardrooms of every NY, London, and Paris-based corporation taking it "global."

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. The Subcomandanate has precious little to do with the cartels

different war...

[Maru Kitteh]

50. They would pee-pee their damn pants if they met up with real bad guys and run away. Or

the lights would simply go out when they got shot in the back of the head, they'd never know what hit them.

[Wiley50]

14. I was just about to post this (interestingly enough, it was written by the son of Susan Sontag

I found it in a Guatemalan publication


http://www.guatemala-times.com/opinion/syndicated/the-world-in-words/836-is-mexico-disintegrating.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Not surprised, the English papers across LA draw from the Guardian

and the NYT regularly, as well as the AP

[lovuian]

20. if we don't watch it we will have a war on our borders

and our army gone

in Iraq and Afghanistan

[UTUSN]

23. Funny. I was just there across the border, LOTS of Winter Texans,

*nobody* was afraid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. You will not get me to go to TJ, even if you pay the trolley pass

and Mexico City, I keep a low profile when I do

[UTUSN]

36. ! There's a TROLLEY?!1 *NOW* you tell me!1 n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Been there for 20 years, takes you from downtown to san ysidro

Longer perhaps in fact

[defendandprotect]

31. Legalize marijuana -- and I don't think we should even tax it . . .

and do it fast because this Drug War BS is about to eat us all alive!!

All is does is breed crime ---

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Legalize it, regulate it and TAX It like tobacco

and it is probably less harmful than tobacco

In fact, unlike crack tobacco (aka what comes in cigs these days), it does have medical uses

After that prohibition is prohibition regardless of the name used

[dysfunctional press]

40. i haven't followed the stories closely- but i'm guessing that most of this isn't about pot...

although i could certainly be mistaken- i would think that THIS kind of violence would be more about heroin and/or cocaine or even meth.
personal armies can be pricey.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You are right, it is not pot

it is coke, it is meth... hell meth labs in TJ at times go boom, because they are easier to set up down there.

Coke can be legalized as well, and regulated

In fact, coca leaves are pretty innocuous... it is the processed junk

But regulating pot in the US would take some of the allure away.

The problem is that as a species we have used all sorts of drugs for most of our evolutionary history... so give up the ghost and just regulate it and tax it

Oh and it is more than just the drugs... it is simply who controls what in the country. It is about power.

And street soldiers are high, one way to keep them loyal

[dysfunctional press]

73. legalizing pot in this country might be a difficult thing to accomplish...

but legalizing heroin, coke, or meth just isn't going to happen.

in many ways it would be better to regulate and tax it all- and at least insure a safe and relatively pure product for the users.

[defendandprotect]

57. Supposedly when you make marijuana illegal you encourage the use ...

of stronger drugs --

Meanwhile, just think of all the marijuana fields we're spraying and

the excuse it presents for invasive policing practices --

[MadHound]

35. I wonder if this country will wise up and legalize drugs

Will the spectacle of a country, on our border, that is spiraling out of control finally wake up our government and our society that prohibition is the surest way to promote crime.

We prohibited alcohol for thirteen years, and wound up with an organized crime problem that haunted us for decades. We've prohibited drugs for over eighty years, and now an entire country on our border is about to go.


You're never going to eliminate the demand, so you might as well set up a legal market, where there is quality control, regulation and oversight. But by doing so you would eliminate this drug war on the border, you would eliminate a massive source of crime, both in the cities and the countryside. Without the mystique of the forbidden, usage rates would most likely go down, and the stigma of criminality would be gone, allowing for the proper treatment of addiction for what it is, a medical condition, not a moral failing.

We could stop wasting money, we could restore our rights and Constitution. Yet because a select few groups of people make a ton of money off of the drug trade, it is going to remain illegal, and eventually kill us all.

[IGotAName]

37. I heard about this on NPR. It was horrible.

I would never want to live in a place where things like that were going on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Mind you 20 years ago

we had one shift when I myself responded to 12 apparent suicides... all by hanging... mostly to certify that they were dead.

After the third in the course of two hours, me, the cops, and other emergency workers started going, what the heck is going on?

Years later... I am willing to bet they were early executions by the Arellanos, That preceded the mess really getting bad by a couple years. The shootings started relatively soon after, and they just have gotten worst over the years.

I left that volunteer line of work after a rifle round went through my rig, so close to me, that I count my blessings

And that brillinant moment of you got to be nuts to be doing this came after many shootouts. They included a couple very stupid maneuvers, but that is a whole different matter (What others call heroics, I call idiotics... fool, brave, stupid... all in one packet)

That night there were over thirty bodies recovered all over Tijauana. I especially remember the eyes popping out from a young man, early twenties at the oldest, and the swollen tongue coming out... now these news stories are bringing all that like a bag of bricks, anybody up for war stories? I got a bunch.

[IGotAName]

47. Jesus.

That's fucking insane.

I get really tired of hearing about people doing things like this to each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. I got to deal with it

trust me, we got to see some real doozies.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

39. This is scary stuff...

I hope Obama will be able to get past the anti-drug hype, and legalize marijuana...

That would be a big step in stopping that war from posing any more of a threat to us than it already does...

I am not holding my breath, however.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Ain't it great to live close to the front lines?

A mexican reporter these days starts his news with the "now from the (insert city here) front lines"

There are days I think it will take a shoot out or two in Coronado between the local cops and the Arellanos to wake the feds up

Fer the bloody record, the feddies never went there out of fear of a nice warm welcome, as in AK 47 styled welcome

I mean that would ruin the neighborhood

[CaliforniaPeggy]

46. Oh yes!

I just love being this close! NOT

And aren't you closer than I am?

I forgot to check your profile...

I'm in a safe little suburb of LA...

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. san Diego, and if you are close to South East LA

the shootings related to this mess started in South East LA, with the usual gangs and M13 about ten to fifteen years ago

You may be very close too

:-)

One thing I miss about working in TJ as a medic was the side access to actual intelligence about this crap

I mean unofficially you had police from everywhere in the region sharing info... under the damn table

We got crumbs, useful crumbs Especially of areas to avoid in civies

And I am in San Diego, in a somewhat safe place... but I am not delusional about that, given where some of these people at times live in... I did mention Coronado right?

:hi:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

53. Yes, you did mention Coronado...

Not too bad at all!

I'm in Manhattan Beach, which is out on Santa Monica Bay, just south of LAX...

There are gangs in the surrounding towns, but they do not come into my town.

We have a good police presence, I guess...

I'll bet you had good intelligence!

We pretty much stay out of LA proper...

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Damn we were in your neighborhood last weekend

gaming convention at the LAX Radisson

[CaliforniaPeggy]

56. That's like 3 miles away!

Next time you get up here, PM me, and we can maybe get together, OK?

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Will do, planning to go to the Sept Show

[Maru Kitteh]

48. I lived 3 miles north of Ciudad Juarez in the late 80's and it was bad then

Nobody with half a clue drove in Juarez with Texas plates or rental tags. It was just asking for trouble from the police (bribes) or any other number of less palatable fates. I had some shoe-string relatives in the city, and I was happy enough to let them do the driving if needed. Otherwise, I just walked.

I was only in El Paso for two years, and even though the area had it's troubles (women disappearing in the desert) I loved the color and rhythm of life there. I REALLY miss the food!

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Bad enough that TJ is now off limits to the USN, AGAIN

It takes a bit for that to happen

I drove with Cali plates, but I was a medic down there, so I had mostly free rein and no hassle

[Vattel]

55. The problem for Mexico is severe, but

what exactly is the great peril for the U.S.? Granted, some of the violence will spill over the border, and worse conditions in Mexico will result in more illegal immigration to the U.S. But the Guardian article fails to specify exactly why the potential threat to the U.S. is so dire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. I'll tell you the danger, the violence is spreading norht

as well as the shootouts

The Guardian also did tell you what the danger is, a failed state on the southern border can and will affect internal security in the US.

They just didn't spell it

[Vattel]

64. Is Mexico really that close to being a failed state?

And exactly what would be the impact on the U.S. of Mexico becoming a failed state? I like details.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Yes, the cartels physically control large swathes of the territory

the army is trying to fight them back.

I'll give you an example from the times I still worked down there... think of this.. there were neighborhoods in TJ that the cops did not go into at night. Mostly they'd get killed. Expand this to large swaths of the country, especially along the border.

Hell, 20 years ago we got a military escort in a SAR mission in the back country, that was the beginning

The consequences of that is that the government cannot protect citizens, that destroys that social compact, and like Colombia, I expect to see the Cartels do things like fund medical care... or schools, buying the loyalty of locals. In effect creating quasi governments that control all

The effects on the US is that they already control the traffic up north of many a drugs, Colombian coke comes through Mexico these days, chiefly, not the Caribbean. This comes with local American gangs doing the bidding of their Cartel masters, including already fighting small wars in the middle of the usual suspects. (South East SD LA, but also targeted assassinations. They tend to start slow, and low, like a local cop, or a local padre that opposes them. This leads to fear in the population, that doesn't trust the cops to begin with. So your local government starts to loose a grip on local security. See what I said about certain neighborhoods in Tijuana many years ago? That is already starting to happen in the States, not the leading story anywhere but it is. Fully reversible so far, yes)

Now there is more, these cartels don't abide by any government authority and to get their markets expanded will expand to the US Militias, right wing, left wing, doesn't matter. And in fact, are part and parcel of the penetration of Meth into small town America in the middle of the country.

And the economic crisis, they play their cards right, they can even find allies all over the society.

They are chiefly a destabilizing force... both in Mexico and the United States

[Vattel]

111. Thanks for the details

[Michigan-Arizona]

70. Nogales Mexico

Have you heard or do you know anything that might be going on there dealing with this mess? I've heard so much on other border town's but nothing so far on Nogales.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. hmm good question, I haven't either

let me do a search of the mexican media

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. According to the Mexican media it is a lawless town

how's your spanish, here is the links

http://www.elimparcial.com/edicionenlinea/nota.asp?numnota=77047

http://narcotraficoenmexico.blogspot.com/2008/08/decapitan-3-en-nogales-sonora-y.html

http://narcotraficoenmexico.blogspot.com/2008/08/se-enfrenta-pep-comando-armado-en.html

http://www.newstin.es/tag/es/42448131

[Michigan-Arizona]

77. Thank you

I'd love to hear anything you may find out & would appreciate it very much. Hubby & I go there often but lately people here in Tucson say they are afraid right now to go there. I want to say they are hearing about other border town's & thinking Nogales is one of them. We love going down there & would so hate to not be able to. We've never felt afraid before & everyone has been very kind to us. Again thank you for any info you may come up with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Did not realize El Chapo came from there, and set up shop there

was a DUH moment for me.

If the violence is moving to touristy areas, stay home

There are many reasons I stay out of Tijuana as well

[Michigan-Arizona]

82. Spanish none

Sound's crazy but we were just down there maybe 2 week's ago & it all seemed the same as any other time. We only go about 3 street's in but we did notice not to many American's there but we thought that mostly had to do with the Bush economy. Thank you so much for the info....

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. You were staying in the touristy areas,

usually those are neutral zones since everybody gets, it, they need tourists.

In Tijuana that was the Rio Zone (mostly) and revolution, but not beyond third street.

After that... you are on your own

Problem is that El Chapo is a tad unhinged, and he's been in the list of very much wanted men for the last since I remember.

[Michigan-Arizona]

90. Thank you!

I have friend's coming into town in a week or so that want to go down there but now I'm not sure as to my taking them. Myself I hate the idea of not being able to spend the day or even a few hour's there from time to time. Again thank you

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. You welcome, you may want to check with State

they may, or may not, have a travelers warning

Whatever you do, carry passport, and phone of local consulate

Be advised though, from dealing with many a diplomatic service... they are not quite the most efficient in responding to US Citizen's emergencies, which is a common complaint from many who have to deal with them... and go during the week.. weekend, duty staff, good joke.

(Now I cannot say that about the Poles, the French, or even the Canucks... they were very efficient, and the Israelis made the US state department look extremely efficient)

[Posteritatis]

74. I'd say a potential civil war and/or failed state on the border's kind of a big deal myself (nt)

[tkmorris]

63. I was thinking of going to Mexico City in August

The US Men's National soccer team has a game scheduled there against Mexico at Azteca Stadium, a qualifier for the World Cup next year. They do this every 4 years and I have never had the opportunity to see it in Mexico. I wanted to go with my wife and 17 year old daughter, stay a few days, see some sights in the area, etc.

On the other hand I have been watching the situation there steadily deteriorate for years now. Four years ago I would have gone anyway if I could, but I'm not sure about this year. I get the feeling I'd spend an awful lot of time scanning faces, watching for potential threats, and double-checking my daughter's location. Maybe I'm just being silly but Mexico City doesn't seem like a terribly safe place at the moment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. You are a tourist, so mostly you should be safe

the code is to leave the tourist alone mostly... so as long as you stay in the tourist zone... you should be fine, but carry the number of the US Embassy just in case, and that is a good practice anyway when you travel abroad. Be aware though the US Embassy and consular officers do not break time record responding to emergencies from their citizens anywhere in the world. Read to see if there are any warnings from State as well.

That said, I wouldn't go to the stadium, but that is mostly because the audience can get a little rowdy. Ah orange peels into the field...

Good times...

If you go with a group of gringos, you should be safe... but make sure to take "tourist cabs" More expensive and in some cases armored.

We do... and I grew down there

Oh and the taxi service from the airport to the hotel is safe... just have pesos with you

[tkmorris]

67. Takes all the fun out of the trip unfortunately

I'd HAVE to go to the stadium, no point otherwise, though as you say, if we stick with the other "gringos" we should be OK there. Thing is aside from that I do not like to just stick to the tourist areas. If you really want to see a country or region you have got to get off the beaten track. Tourist areas tend to look a lot the same whether you are in Italy or Japan, just with different architecture. I like to find the non-tourist places, the kind of places only the locals know about; that's where the real people live.

Probably not a good idea in Mexico at the moment. Oh we might go anyway and just play it safe as you suggest, it just won't be as much fun.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. When I go visit family we play it safe

and we grew down there.

Granted I stay at parent's home, and we eat home cooked meals

And the coffee shop they like to go to is far from the tourist traps

Now if you go, I absolutely recommend the Museo the Antropologia e Historia... in Chapultepec... a must, and it takes several days to fully enjoy it

If you are lucky, we were last year, they may even have a special exhibit, last year it was Egyptian art and Tuthankahmon. And that place, not just the tourist trap, during the week you will have school groups as well... and all you do, avoid water in the streets, even "closed bottles"

Monetsuma's revenge is no joke and don't drink water from the tap

Hate to give the usual warnings, but they are real... (infrastructure that is in bad shape)

[L. Coyote]

89. Take a gas mask. The pollution is dangerous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Not anymore

I grew down there, trust me, LA is worst any longer

[a la izquierda]

106. The minute I got off the plane there in August...

my eyes started burning. My adviser's too. That place is awful for asthmatics and those with allergies.

Someone told me once they could see Popo and Itza on a nice day. I think they were totally full of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. No they weren't, you could

But seriously, it is not as bad as it used to be. Grew up down there

Not saying it is good, but just better than it used to be

[a la izquierda]

118. I grew up in NJ...

our pollution is gross. Then I lived in L.A. Much grosser. Now, when I'm not in Guadalajara, I live in Oklahoma. No pollution. It's lovely. :)

[Posteritatis]

76. Was watching a BBC News story about the state of things down there the other day...

One of the people they talked to was a coroner for one of the cities near the border. I don't recall which; the story should be on the BBC News site dated about four or five days ago. Anyway, the coroner said there had been 2600 autopsies in his city in 2008 - of which 1500 were homicides, "only" 950 of which were related to the cartels.

That kinda blew my thought process at the time off the rails, to say the least.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. When I stopped doing the medic stuff in TJ we had 500 or so homicides

and 400 or so were drug related

We were alarmed, the SEMEFO was alarmed

the Feds, not so much

Time to start monitoring our own coroner's officers

By the way TJ last year, got so bad, they ran out of refrigeration space in the middle of the summer... this is a desert

[Posteritatis]

80. What kind of time period was that over? (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. A year, back in oh what was it, 1992...

The whole mess probably started in the late 1980s

I alluded above to a shift of mine were we had 30 suicides in one night... by hanging.

These days I don't think they were suicides, but the early murders from the Cartel

Could not prove it, but I got to declare 12 people over the course of seventeen hours. Eerie, absolutely we were all going WTF over?

For the record you can see that many in the course of a month right Christmas, those are normal numbers.

[Posteritatis]

91. Gah. I'm in a city of 400K where five homicides in a year is considered a dramatic spike.. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Of course, you are in Canada

I still remember Toronto, they were horrified, I tell you one year when my brother still lived there

They had count them, seven homicides for the whole year

Five were Yakuzza and two were stupid muricans....

Yeah I went lordly, to be in a place like that... I wish

By the way I went CANADA, and then checked your profile, and am having a good laugh

[Posteritatis]

96. This summer Toronto was found to be the safest city in Canada

Which astonishes me between its population and how ridiculously, gloriously multiethnic it is. The numbers outstrip my neck of the woods, but it's a city of several million people. I'm in Halifax, which is at the other end of the scale per capita but still, as I said, five in this city is considered a terrible year.

I think both Toronto and Halifax are off to a lousy start this year, but compared to the stuff I hear out of Mexico... *shudders*

[SoCalDem]

81. We "infected" the whole world with our financial wizardry

:(

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. I wish this mess had even a smidgen to do with the current economic mess

to be honest.

[Hannah Bell]

110. it has plenty to do with it.

[rustydad]

115. This discussion is relevant...but

The most serious development that will effect Mexico and the US is the rapid decline in Mexican oil exports. The sale of oil, mostly to the US supports over half of the governments spending. In a couple of years those exports will be done, over, toast. The government likely will have to abandon areas north of the tropical productive south. The broder will end up ours to control. Bob

[Bread and Circus]

107. Oh please.

[rabs]

95. U.S. Is a Vast Arms Bazaar for Mexican Cartels (NYT)

---------------

Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers are arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border. It also offers a rare glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and wielded in horrific crimes.

----------------

Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.


oops, forgot the link ....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[defendandprotect]

123. Hey, that's what the NRA is fighting for --- !!!! Guns for everyone--!!!

[KillCapitalism]

99. Pull our troops out of Iraq now!

They could be of much better use on our southern border which is way more of a security risk than Iraq ever was.

[NickB79]

117. With the Mexican govt. relying on oil exports for 40% of their income, their days are numbered

The Mexican govt. has suffered a double blow in the past year. When oil prices skyrocketed this past summer, they were unable to increase oil output and so lost an opportunity to make a bigger profit (though they still did make a killing). Then, when oil prices dropped, they STILL couldn't increase the number of barrels/day to compensate for the decline in price per barrel.

Their oil reserves have apparently peaked, and unless they either raise taxes on the populace, cut services, or find a new source of income, the drug gangs will simply bury them financially.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. That is part of the problem, and why they are desperately looking for new fields

that said... you think we can afford a failed state at the border?

SO it affects us

Then there is this 1810, 1910 revolutions... can I have a 2010? Some folks have suggested that

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

124. YEP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5118749

[deaniac21]

125. Mexico has been in free fall since the conquistadors.