Grow your own, a path to legalization.

[alfredo]

As I remember, Ethiopia said it is legal to possess, but illegal to sell. Why not here?

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/drug_policy_/2009/02/legalizing_cannabis_is_the_ground_shifting.php


Substantively, I'm not a big fan of legalization on the alcohol model; a legal pot industry, like the legal booze and gambling industries, would depend for the bulk of its sales on excessive use, which would provide a strong incentive for the marketing effort to aim at creating and maintaining addiction. (Cannabis abuse is somewhat less common, and tends to be somewhat less long-lasting, than alcohol abuse, and the physiological and behavioral effects tend to be less dramatic, but about 11% of those who smoke a fifth lifetime joint go on to a period of heavy daily use measured in months.) So I'd expect outright legalization to lead to a substantial increase in the prevalence of cannabis-related drug abuse disorder: I'd regard an increase of only 50% as a pleasant surprise, and if I had to guess I'd guess at something like a doubling.

So I continue to favor a "grow your own" policy, under which it would be legal to grow, possess, and use cannabis and to give it away, but illegal to sell it. Of course there would be sales, and law enforcement agencies would properly mostly ignore those sales. But there wouldn't be billboards.

That beautifully-crafted policy has only two major defects that I'm aware of: it wouldn't create tax revenue, and no one but me supports it. On the drug-warrior side of the argument, even those who can read the handwriting on the wall won't dare to deviate from the orthodoxy. As we did with alcohol, the country will lurch from one bad policy (prohibition) to another (commercial legalization). I just hope the sellers are required to measure the cannabinoid profiles of their products and put those measurements on the label.

[maxsolomon]

1. could we barter with it?

because after the collapse of civilization we'll need to.

[alfredo]

26. You can eat it too. Yeah, the laws won't mean much if there is a collapse.

[Webster Green]

2. "cannabis-related drug abuse disorder"

Never heard of it. You mean like "wake and bake"?

Heh! :wtf:

[ixion]

7. yeah, I'm not sure there is such a thing...people can abuse just about anything

from cannabis to chocolate cake to television to religion.

Habitual pot smokers tend to be functional, not dysfunctional. That's what makes its illegality so stupid.

[Occam Bandage]

10. I would be interested in a study of the functionality of habitual marijuana smokers,

as compared the the functionality of people who habitually engage in activities that are generally found non-addictive but often habit-forming. Everyone knows pot smokers who are successful, and pot smokers who are not, and frankly most people know more unsuccessful than successful pot smokers--but most likely only because more people are unsuccessful than successful, and perhaps because unsuccessful people are more likely to decide to use marijuana, just as they're more likely to decide to watch hours of television, with their careers not rewarding extra mental or physical effort.

I think a great deal of the remaining opposition to pot is in the commonly-held idea that pot makes you lazy and dumb. A battery of studies disproving that would go a long way towards eliminating much of the few remaining hurdles.

[ixion]

11. non-addictive but often habit-forming: that describes marijuana

it is physically non-addictive.

I would like to see a study like that as well. It's difficult, though, because of the illegality of it. People who smoke and who are functional are not likely to come forward to participate in such a study as long as it's illegal.

[sammythecat]

17. "commonly-held idea that pot makes you lazy and dumb"

That's pretty what it does to me. Some people react differently but, if I'm honest, it makes me scatter-brained and lazy. About the only times I really enjoyed it was while watching a good movie prior to going to bed. Of course, going to bed was preceded by half a box of cereal and a cup and half of sugar.

[Baikonour]

39. Everyone has different effects from marijuana. Just like alcohol.

When some people get drunk, they get mean and angry. Others lose all inhibition and act silly. And so on. The same can be said about marijuana. Some people, like yourself, feel lazy and dumb from it and that's perfectly fine. Other people, like myself, find that marijuana allows you to concentrate better. For instance, I've been playing guitar for about 4 years. I'm not a master by any stretch of the imagination, but if I smoke up a little before I play, I find that my skill is exponentially better.

[Zhade]

55. You should try smoking sativa than, instead of indica.

Mind high versus body.

[JeffR]

61. And utterly cosmic if cultivated at the right time

and cured carefully, loosening constraints on creativity, freeing the mind to new discoveries, deepening a sense of oneness with all creation, and not requiring anything in the way of a late-night eating binge when the high tapers off. Good thing the Establishment has made this stuff illegal. Smoke even a little of it and the Establishment comes clearly into focus as a total freaking joke.

[sammythecat]

63. THAT really appeals to me.

Pretty much describes the feeling I get from hydrocodone. If it weren't for the tolerance issue I think I could spend every day of my life on that stuff. In fact I did just that for more than 2 years some time ago. Never felt better or more productive and satisfied in my life. They say the anti-depressant ssri's don't zone a person out, they just fix a chemical imbalance that brings the person back to normal. That's what I feel hydrocodone affects me. I don't get whacked out, I just feel right. However, there is the tolerance thing and that is definitely a huge negative.

Your comment has reawakened fond memories of an old chemical romance. It had a painful ending, but while it was good it was very good.

[sammythecat]

64. Would that I had a choice.

I once saw a video of guy making a purchase in a shop in Amsterdam. The place looked like an elegant jewelry store. Dark wood paneling, sconce lighting on the walls, and a long glass topped case with buds from dozens of varieties of marijuana. I never knew there were so many. I thought it was all the same, but there's an incredible variety, both in appearance and effect.

The guy behind the counter was very helpful and knowledgeable and guided the buyer in getting a certain strain for a certain activity at a certain time of day and another for something else. My choices are generally limited to "really good shit" or "not very good, but it gets you high". I never hear words like sativa or indica, but I'll remember "sativa" in case I ever get a chance to ask for it. Body high is largely a drag, mind high sounds appealing.

[Uncle Joe]

20. I would also add, that successful people aren't likely to advertise,

should they smoke or have smoked Marijuana, unless they're running for President.

[Politicalboi]

49. And some who could have been successful

Got tested positive for their use and get rejected for a job. Being tested for something that stays in your system for a month can blow your shot at a good paying job. But hey if your an alcoholic and abuse your wife that's ok just don't come to work drunk. I smoke pot everyday and I should not be passed by for a job that I can do well. I just don't see the logic to allow drinking on your own time but smoking pot is a no no. I never have a hang over from pot. How many drinkers can say that. I have always done my job and usually got good responses from my bosses. I look at work as a challenge and I try to get the most done as I can. I'm a full blown pot head but none of my bosses would ever call me lazy.

[Zhade]

54. It's more likely that they know more smokers than they realize they know.

NT!

[Zhade]

53. We sure do. I hold down a FT job, pay my child support and my bills.

Most people I know who smoke do.

[Zhade]

52. Indeed. It's just more anti-pot bullshit.

NT!

[Vickers]

3. That tax things is the big hurdle.

No matter how good or pure or strong or pretty commercial pot would be, I think most casual users would be quite happy to light up with some "average" weed they grew in their own backyard, so even if there was a mechanism in place for taxation it wouldn't generate the kind of revenue that alcohol does.

I think that with the current economic situation, many more people are going to be researching alcohol stills...

[Viva_La_Revolution]

8. I already have...

My Grandpa made some great wines in his garage. His dad was a moonshiner. I'm seriously considering taking on the family tradition. :D

[notadmblnd]

4. Unlike alcohol or cigarette Cannibis is not physically addictive

Nobody sweats, or shakes or craves it if they stop cold turkey. Just thought you should know.:shrug:

[alfredo]

5. It's not very Christian. You don't "pay" for your sins through addiction or

hangover.

[notadmblnd]

16. God must have overlooked that in all of his creating.

Does it mean he's capable of making mistakes? No, not God, he's perfect.:sarcasm:n

[alfredo]

21. No, but he put receptors in our brains for THC.

[Blue_In_AK]

6. That's the rule in Alaska, too.

You can possess up to an ounce (or 25 plants) with no penalty. One to four ounces is in the courts, I think. Just don't sell it.

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4522

[TroglodyteScholar]

29. An oz or 25 plants?

Who wrote that law? 25 plants will yield WAAAAAAAAAAY more than an ounce.....

[Blue_In_AK]

30. We all know that.

I don't know who came up with it, but it was a stroke of genius. Some stoner in the legislature, no doubt. :rofl:

[TroglodyteScholar]

34. But I would be concerned by that....

If I have 25 plants all the same age, and harvest time comes, I suddenly have between 8 and 20 POUNDS in my possession, and no plants.

I can't imagine how I'd handle that conundrum..........

:D :D :D

[sammythecat]

9. Regarding the problem of marketing,

which is an excellent point I hadn't considered till you mentioned it, why not just put heavy restrictions on the advertising. Something as austere as "We have it: These are the expected active ingredient percentages: This is the price." No other advertising allowed other than a stark announcement with no promotional content.

[Occam Bandage]

12. I think that as a public-health matter,

tobacco and alcohol should not be allowed to advertise except as you have stated: a simple storefront sign with a logo and a price. I would include marijuana in the same category (any smoke is unhealthful; it's not like tobacco leaves are infused with evil and cannabis leaves are infused with purity).

[sammythecat]

15. Completely agree.

Tobacco has no redeeming qualities. It's only purpose is to maintain an addiction, and I say that as a smoker.

As for alcohol, my "off the top of my head" guess is that half of every gallon of alcohol sold leads to some unpleasantness, if not downright trouble and misery.

I'm sure we've both heard all the pros and cons of marijuana and my personal opinion is that, of the three things we're talking about here, marijuana is benign in comparison to the other two. It should be restricted to recreational settings only however. I don't want to be a passenger in a plane with a bong installed in the cockpit and driving while high is a definite hazard deserving of a DUI.

on edit: I just want to give my thought on tobacco leaves vs cannabis leaves. I don't smoke pot anymore because of work (a topic I could rant about) but when I did, the amount of smoke ingested by myself and others in order to get and maintain a buzz was so small (2-5 tokes for good quality stuff) and infrequent enough that the likelihood of any kind of lung disease from marijuana smoke would be negligible. Someone who smokes a pack and a half a day smokes about an ounce of tobacco every day. That much marijuana would last me a couple months. Maybe more.

[Zhade]

56. Not all smoke is the same; pot smoke is a bronchial dilator.

Tobacco smoke is a bronchial constrictor.

My doctors certainly don't see the harm in smoking it. Quite the opposite.

[shireen]

13. Nat Geo recently had a very good documentary about Marijuana plants

I'd love to grow some hydroponically, if only i had the space to do it and a permit. I don't use, but I want to grow it because it's such a beautiful plant and i like tinkering with growing techniques. if anyone were to break in at night and steal small amounts, i would not mind at all. :D

[alfredo]

14. I lived in a place where you could legally possess. It grew everywhere.

it is a pretty plant. I saw little problem with over use. Their big problem was alcohol and Chot (pronounced with an exploded CH).

[dysfunctional press]

19. people who'd break in to get it probably wouldn't steal small amounts...

when it was harvest time- they'd take it all.

[shireen]

23. not if they were my friends and had a key.

;)

[dysfunctional press]

24. friends who have keys don't genrally "break in at night"...

your words, not mine.

[shireen]

27. i don't want to be labeled as a dealer ....

sigh! It was a good-natured attempt at humor. Never mind ....

[dysfunctional press]

18. legal to posess, illegal to selll does nothing to address the 'black market' aspect.

not everyone who'd want it would be able to grow it.
one of the plus sides of the 'alcohol model' is that it would get rid of the street-corner dealers.

[alfredo]

22. That's true. Maybe the alcohol model but with the ability to grow your own

up to a certain number of mature plants.

[alfredo]

28. Enforcement would be much more lax if simple possession was legal.

[dysfunctional press]

35. kinda like with prostitution?.

after all- it's legal to possess a pussy- but selling it will get you in trouble.

if people are on the corner selling weed to kids and others- enforcement won't be lax.

[alfredo]

36. Allowing people to grow their own will also undercut the dealer.

[dysfunctional press]

37. not by much if selling is illegal.

A LOT of people would have either no ability nor inclination to grow it, and yet would want to obtain it.

[alfredo]

38. People will be swapping seeds. People will get it, no doubt about that.

Selling will still be risky, but using not risky.

[dysfunctional press]

40. what good is 'swapping seeds' if you don't have the ability to grow it?

people who live in the city, in apartments have no place to grow- and most likely, a lot of people who decided to grow it in their gardens would find their crops stolen when it got close to harvest time...:shrug:

[alfredo]

41. I grow jade trees, spider plants and a variety of other house plants, and

have for decades. I've lived in basement apartments, and homes in green wooded areas. Growing house plants is easy. In the winter I use CFL's to give them additional light. If ever legalized, I'd give it a try just because I can.

[dysfunctional press]

42. good for you- but hemp is not a house plant.

especially if you plan to grow smokeable herb in a useable quantity.

[alfredo]

43. Define a useable quantity. Most people don't need much and a plant

grown under grow lights or whatever might be just fine for them. I'm sure if legalized there will be a surge of home growing products and instructions online.

[dysfunctional press]

44. you obviously need to do some research into the subject.

the vast majority of people who want weed, especially city/apartment dwellers will not be able to satisfactorily grow their own crops. there would still be a HUGE market for buying weed.

[alfredo]

45. You can never end crime, it's just the nature of man. The goal is to get

the government off the backs of the pot smoker. Legalizing simple possession would make pot a lower priority for law enforcement.

[dysfunctional press]

46. legalizing posession while keeping the sale illegal would do nothing to stem the illegal trade...

in fact- it would make the 'black market' EXPLODE with demand. as long as it's legal to possess, it's very likely that more people will want to possess it- and the vast majority of those people will not have the inclination, ability, or patience to grow it, and therefore will have to look for a place to buy it...even those who DO grow it will not always be able to grow enough to meet their personal usage. and as long as it's illegal to sell- the people who do sell it would be the organized criminals who already have the distribution network in place.

[alfredo]

47. It would lower the price because people can, if they wish or able, grow

their own. Organized crime didn't get involved in pot until Nixon's Operation Intercept. It disrupted the flow, doubled the price and made it profitable. I used to know some mafia up in Detroit. They wouldn't have anything to do with Pot because it was so cheap. The smugglers were small time privateers. A pound of top grade went for $150 a lb. It just didn't make enough for the mob to bother with it. Heroin and Cocaine was easier to smuggle and made more per pound. Lower the price, lower the incentive.

[dysfunctional press]

48. it wouldn't lower the price because there would be more demand.

most people aren't going to want to deal with the hassles and cost of a grow system when they can easily purchase it. if you're growing a usable quantity of high-grade hydro- it will definitely stink up the house. and if you grow outside- you get only one harvest a year, just like most crops, and if you're in an urban or even sub-urban environment, it'll be hard to hide it from prying eyes and fingers.
and because organized crime IS involved already- they have a distribution network in place, and they know what prices people are willing to pay for weed. even if you could legally grow at home- most people would still pay what they are already willing to pay- especially in urban areas where the price is already the highest.

[alfredo]

57. If the price drops, supply drops to prop up prices.

If supply drops people will grow their own. People share weed. They always have and always will. It's part of the culture. If nobody has it, they drink beer or do without.

[dysfunctional press]

58. the price won't drop- that's my point. the pricepoint people are willing to pay is already set...

if they legalize selling- it would be taxed to that amount...if selling is illegal- the black market gets that amount. in this country, most people aren't going to be willing or able to grow their own. some will, yes. and some do share.
i have an out-of-work friend whose only supply of weed is what i give him. i also have grown in some past seasons- in illinois you're allowed up to 5 plants and it's a misdemeanor.
but since 5 (well 10, counting my wife's) isn't going to keep me supplied all year round, and buying is still a lot easier.
even if it were completely legal to grow, i don't know if i'd want a larger crop anyway- as it would tend to get noticed, especially by teens and the like, who might be tempted to raid it all on some late september/early october night. and THAT would be eminently frustrating.

[alfredo]

59. I never was a heavy smoker, so a small plant would last me a long time.

I guess I come from that mindset. I started over forty years ago, so the newness has worn off. I rarely think about it, but might take a toke if offered, might not.

[dysfunctional press]

60. i started over 30 years ago, and have always been a fairly heavy smoker.

(if about an ounce/week is considered "heavy" ) but it's my only real chemical 'vice' anymore...i've never been a coffee drinker(less than half a cup TOTAL in my 48 years), i don't use tobacco at all- although i used to smoke occasionally if i was out with friends who did- let's call it 1.5 cartons(not packs) lifetime. and i haven't had any alcohol in 10 years- because that's how long i've been taking 50-70mg of methadone daily due to chronic pain from an arthritic auto-immune disorder(ankylosing spondylitis)...along with 30-35 vicoprofens per month due to migraines. i also take occasionally healthy doses of flexeril, cymbalta daily and prednisone(steroids- for the AS) every other day. i just wish that illinois was a medical-mj state.

that's my mindset.

[alfredo]

62. Are you a veteran? If you are, get your butt down to the VA. I have spondylitis

Crohn's, bad discs in my neck and migraines. My arthritis has weakened my arms. Pot helps but I can't afford it. I just live with it. I drink maybe a half beer a night, and maybe a shot of Ouzo. If I could get it legally, I might find a way to get it.

[dysfunctional press]

65. nope, not a veteran.

i tried to get into the navy at one point, but i was rejected due to a deformed(from birth) right hand. my AS went un/mis-diagnosed until i was in my 30's. i get social security disability- but my checks are about 12% less than they should be, because a now long-bankrupt construction company that i worked for for over 2 years NEVER paid social security the fica money that they took out of my checks.

i'm sorry to hear about your condition(s)- it seems that a lot of people with spondylitis also have crohn's.

here's a good website for info and support for AS patients.- (and i especially recommend checking out the info about the no-starch diet)

http://www.kickas.org/

[alfredo]

66. Thank you for the info. The VA has been really good at keeping an

eye on my health.

I had a boss like that. I tried to get him to pay up and he threatened to sue me, so I went around to his clients and took away his business.

[dysfunctional press]

68. the problem with my one-time employer-

i never found out that the money hadn't been paid in until my disability was approved- and by then, they had been bankrupt and out of business for over 15 years.

[alfredo]

70. It happens all the time. One boss was deducting health insurance from

our pay and pocketing the money. When an employee's kid got hurt and sent to the emergency room, they found they didn't have insurance. The employee was pissed and forced the owner to pay for the visit. The business owner was a Republican. He ended up in jail for check kiting.

[Why Syzygy]

25. k/r for Sensible Policy . nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

31. my doc, right before cutting into my spine

under a local, rued the fact that there is no legal use for pot in this state. He opined that pot is the best pain med around for my kind of pain. his patients who do smoke recover faster, with less pain, and are more able to function faster.

(a woman ran a red at 60 mph and crushed my car. with me in it.)

[noiretextatique]

32. actually, a lot of people support your model

i'm in northern california, and i belong to a cannibis club. i can legally grow up to 72 plants for myself, and i can also buy at the cannibis club. i can also grow up to 72 plants for 5 other people (I think that's right) who have cannibis cards. when i purchase at the cannibis club, i pay sales tax. i will likely keep buying from the club vs. growing my own because i am lazy and i don't have a lot of space.

[dysfunctional press]

50. the problem with the model he's proposing is that selling is not allowed.

so a person wouldn't have a choice but to grow it if they wanted to legally possess it.

[noiretextatique]

69. you're right...i totally missed that

i'd prefer to keep the selling to the cannabis clubs. there is an organization that controls them and since it's medical marijuana, you have to join that organization to use the clubs. i just don't want big corporations to get involved...keep it collective.

[Danascot]

33. Marijuana Nation

I caught this National Geographic Explorer program a couple of days ago. It addresses many of the isses raised above.

(Plus it features acres of fat sticky-budded plants, clouds of toking and Lisa Ling ... what more could you ask for?)

It's airing again tomorrow (Weds) at 6 pm in my area. Check your local listings.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/explorer/3821/Overview

[alfredo]

67. Check out CNBC

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28561896

[Zhade]

51. "marketing effort to aim at creating and maintaining addiction" Ummm, noooo. Pot is not addictive.

Heavy daily use is NOT always abuse. I use it daily for my eyes, per my doctor's recommendation.

There is no "cannabis-related drug abuse disorder". There are only people with addictive personalties who habituate themselves. That's not addiction.