Remember my problems with the sting of Larry Craig

[dsc]

Here is why I have those problems. This is from Manhattan.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/fea/20090202/202/2813

Robert Pinter, a 52-year-old gay man who was arrested for prostitution at the Blue Door in the East Village on Oct. 10, spoke at the town hall meeting. He said a young man — a 29-year old undercover cop who, Pinter said, looked even younger — cruised him in the store. He was "charming and persistent, and we agreed to go home for consensual sex, but as we were leaving he said, 'I want to pay you $50 .' I didn't respond, but I thought it was strange," Pinter recounted. As the men left the store, Pinter said, a group of men who did not show police identification pushed him against the wall

"I thought I'd been set up by a gang," he said. "I asked them why they were doing this to me. I was totally clueless. They handcuffed me and said, 'Why the f--- do you think we're arresting you — loitering for the purpose of prostitution.'"

Pinter spent several hours in a police van, more time at the Seventh Precinct, and "16 or 17 hours in the Tombs," the city jail downtown. His Legal Aid attorney "strongly suggested I plead guilty to disorderly conduct," which he did, although he now regrets it. He was also ordered to go to city-sponsored classes on how to engage in prostitution more safely.

Most of the victims, some of whom are foreign tourists and almost all of whom have never been arrested before, have been encouraged by their lawyers to plead guilty to "disorderly conduct" and end their ordeal, rather than risk trial on the much more serious charge of prostitution. But as the arrests have piled up, civil rights and Legal Aid lawyers have convinced some of the men to fight the charges.

end of quote

This is a text book example of why the sting of Larry Craig was so problematic.

[MadHound]

1. Craig wasn't charged with prostitution

He was charged with peeping and disorderly conduct, and according to the report, Craig initiated the conduct that led to both these charges.

As far as the case you gave, this sounds like the cops did overstep the bounds, and should be punished for it, but it doesn't relate to Craig's charges at all.

[dsc]

2. Yea it is just a gigantic coincidence that they never send beautiful women around

in these stings.

[MadHound]

6. Well, given that we're talking about the men's bathroom here

Sending in beautiful women would be a huge sign about what's going on.

Craig initiated contact, he ogled the guy in the stall, he initiated the foot and hand signals. If he had simply gone into the bathroom, taken a piss and moved on, he wouldn't have gotten busted. Instead he decided to try for a bathroom quickie instead. His actions are what got Craig busted.

Oh, as far as beautiful women stings go, I would suggest that you go down to precincts in any large city in this country, especially on a weekend night. You will see guy after guy getting thrown into the clink because they propositioned an undercover, female officer and got busted for it. Craig propositioned an undercover male officer and got busted for it.:shrug:

[KittyWampus]

9. are you saying that police never send around women cops to set up and nab johns?

On the one hand, you seem to be saying this is targeting gay men.

And it sure does seem to be that.

On the other hand, you also seem to be saying straight men are never targeted.

That is bunk.

We probably both agree that targeting people for sex solicitation is a waste of time and in the case cited, it was out of bounds.

Does the guy in the story "deserve" to be arrested and put through hell? HECK NO.

That said, these two things bother me:

*** innocent guy agrees to have consensual sex with a total stranger
*** this total stranger mentions wanting to pay $50 and innocent guy STILL says "whatever" and keeps going

It's anyone's right to have consensual sex with total strangers, even when strangers mention weird things on the way to your apartment. No one should be arrested for that.

But it falls in the category of putting oneself in an unnecessarily dangerous situation.

[Ian David]

10. What if the guy had said, "I don't want you to pay me, but you can donate the $50 to charity."

For example, to Larry Craig's Fund for Justice.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. the similarity is that they are trying to entrap gay men banking on the fact

that due to the shame associated with gay sex, people will pay up to make the problem disappear

[Ian David]

3. They have classes on how to engage in prostitution more safely? n/t

[Horse with no Name]

5. Where was it prostitution??

You mean you have NEVER picked up anyone from a bar?
If the young man in question didn't offer to pay someone (nor did he request money) but that person "casually mentioned" paying them on the way out...then in MY view, the sting was extremely problematic.
Had they actually discussed the price and then he consented, then sure, that is solicitation.
But mentioning the price ON THE WAY OUT is not solicitation.

[Ian David]

8. Obviously this was NOT prostitution. But, my comment was about this...

He was also ordered to go to city-sponsored classes on how to engage in prostitution more safely.

[Stevenmarc]

4. OK so now someone who wasn't a prostitute

is forced to go to a class on how to be a better prostitute.

[SmileyRose]

7. I also had problems with the Craig thing - on multiple levels.

Not the least of which - why are we hassling adults of sound mind and body who want consensual sex, regardless of whether cash or dinner and a movie are exchanged. Plus, I'm assuming every violent crime and theft in New York has been prevented, every outstanding warrant served, in order to have something at this level be a priority.

[MadHound]

11. Perhaps because a lot of guys were complaining about being sexually harrassed in that bathroom

Apparently a lot of guys were getting hassled at the Min/St.P airport bathroom and were complaining about it. I don't blame them, I go to the bathroom for one purpose only, and wouldn't appreciate getting hit on in such a setting. The police decided to do something, namely set up this sting and Craig was foolish enough to fall for it. Don't want to get busted, then don't go peering through the cracks in a stall and initiating contact via hand and foot signals.

[hlthe2b]

12. That's the disconnect that baffles me...

To me, it is a no brainer that public bathrooms are not the place to try to initiate a "connection"-- regardless of sexual preference or anything else. It is a place to relieve oneself--a vital bodily function that for most people ought to be deserving of at least a modicum of privacy.

I simply can not understand why there are those who believe one has the right to solicit sex of strangers in public restrooms and that the "recipient" of such solicitations does not have the right to feel and complain of being "harrassed".... :shrug:

That said, the OP's example is very different, but I agree that it appears to be without justification by the police.

[KittyWampus]

20. IIRC, using public restrooms like that is "old school" for gay men and from a time/place when

way more people were in the closet and fewer establishments provided safe havens for gay clientele interesting in mingling.

But if my take is wrong, someone please correct me.

[dsc]

23. but funny when asked to provide copies of those complaints

they had mysteriously vanished. Gee, fancy that.

[SmileyRose]

25. I have yet to see anyone stepping forward to complain about a problem

I've searched 100 pages of google and 5 years of archives for Minnesota newspapers and not one mention of anyone actually complaining about getting hit on in the pottie (and why doesn't someone DO something about it). I'm sure it happens here and there, but you'd think if it was any kind of problem big enough to warrant a "sting" then at the very least the airport workers who use those bathrooms on a daily basis would have at minimum talked to the news media as an anonymous complainer.

[msongs]

13. a police department's primary job is to raise $$$ for the city/state

the easiest way to raise money is to target people who are most likely to pay up and least likely to fight back. Fighting back reduces the payoff thus canceling out the profits gained by targeting people.

This whole thing is a money making scam.

msongs

[MrScorpio]

16. BINGO!

Best answer right there

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. i read this a couple weeks ago. they are trying to remove the porn stores out

and using this prostitution BS as an excuse for it.

such fucking horseshit

[NNN0LHI]

17. 'I want to pay you $50 .' I didn't respond, but I thought it was strange,"

Ruh, roh.

Don

[EFerrari]

24. Why "strange" and not "illegal"? "I thought, this is illegal and told him

to get lost . . . ."

[closeupready]

18. This is bullshit.

But the NYPD periodically harasses places where gay men gather. So no surprises there, really.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. remember when it was the gay clubs and a bunch of them shut down?

assholes

[closeupready]

21. Yes, I do - for some dumb reason, and yet the hetero places, which were just as bad,

were left untouched. Hard to respect the NYPD when they do this shit.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. the hetero clubs i have been too had drug dealers openly offering E

etc

those were still open. only the gay nightclubs and the fetish ones came under NYPD's review. basically people who wouldnt bitch as much because of the shame still associated with gay sex