Should Nadya Suleman Pay Govt. Back?

[ghurley]

If she comes into money from endorsements, book deals, etc.

[SoCalNative]

1. Every last cent eom

[taught_me_patience]

2. Hell yes.

I'm pretty pissed to pay for her $Million medical bills.

[schmear happens]

3. If Nadya was an inner city single mom with 6 kids by different fathers and was on welfare,

I'll bet the majority of people on here would support her. Why? I mean, let's face it--if you support that behavior (even if the mom made the kids the "old-fashioned way"), you are basically saying that she is too stoopid to know better.

The truth is, there are people motivated by the $$$$ that multiple kids brings because somewhere inside they don't feel like they can do anything else BUT make kids and collect the meager dollars. They may also have the same emotional needs as Nadya. Why does Nadya get so much more scorn? Because she is a college graduate? Because her skin is too light?

(Interesting observation: when this story first broke, most DUers were sympathetic and accused naysayers of being prejudiced because Nadya's father is an Iraqi. They even said people were hating because her mom "spoke broken English," just assuming that she was also Middle Eastern. Well, as soon as it was learned that her mom was (it appears) American, then all bets were off! Why is that...?)

[Marrah_G]

9. That inner city mom you are talking about did not have SEVEN IVF procedures

NOR have they hired a fucking publicist to milk the public of as much money as possible.

[schmear happens]

11. Point made...but let's subtract that from the equation...

Not all single moms on welfare have multiple kids, obviously. But what about those who continue to procreate, 6, 7, 8 times, even though they have no resources, education, etc.? Do they get a pass and why? Because they just aren't "with it" enough to get that it's a dead end? And what about the sperm donors? Do they also get a pass? Is there any accountability whatsoever with someone who is in this position? Just asking...

[Marrah_G]

16. You cannot equate the two.

You really just can't equate sex that results in a pregnancy with paying to purposefully implant 6 or more embryos in your uterus while you have 6 kids under 7 some with disabilities at home.

You can play this game all you want but apples will never make orange juice.

[schmear happens]

18. No, you are correct, it's not exactly the same. However...

using my initial example, if a single mom has multiple births, are you implying that at some point it is not on purpose? Because then you would have to say that certain women are not intelligent (after the 4th or 5th child) to grasp that sex=pregnancy! Even the least-educated woman can figure that out long before...

[barb162]

37. Who is the primary person with responsibility here? Suleman.

And how many people PURPOSELY try to have so many kids when they can't pay for them?

[Ex Lurker]

57. it's their choice

a just society would provide an income and home to all its citizens, regardless of circumstances or life decisions. That includes an inner city "welfare mother" as well as a middle class IVF recipient.The racism and sexism on these threads are stunning.

[KittyWampus]

12. Inner city moms don't collect disability and then go for multiple IVF treatments and plastic surgery

[schmear happens]

13. So that was the deal breaker for you? What about the first 6 kids?

I just think there are two standards here. Where does mental illness play into this?

[JI7]

34. the first 6 were through IVF also

[barb162]

32. If she can piss away $100,000 on IVF, she can pay to feed her own kids.

I don't see why taxpayers are feeding her kids for her. It seems she also has plenty of money for plastic surgery and nail care, but she comes up short on supporting the kids she supposedly loves so much. TOTAL CON ARTIST! A "typical" inner city welfare mom doesn't have that kind of money to piss away to begin with.

[JI7]

35. the same ones who defended her for her background are still defending her

they are just looking for excuses and now some are accusing those who disagree with her of being racist.

[Sultana]

55. Racist, lol

The woman is white she may be part Arab but Arabs are white too.

[Lyric]

62. If you actually think that there are women having babies just to collect welfare

money, then you're uneducated at best, and prejudiced at worst.

Research "family caps." Go look up and see just how much "extra" money women used to get for having more babies before family caps were implemented. (I'll give you a hint; in Mississippi, the "raise" for a new baby was a mere $24 per month. About what it costs to buy a small package of diapers and a can of powdered formula, and not even CLOSE to what it actually costs per month to care for an infant.)

People are not deliberately getting pregnant to collect welfare money. More specifically, since you mentioned skin color, Black women are NOT deliberately popping out babies to cash in on welfare. If you think so, then you don't know a damned thing about how welfare works.

[skeewee08]

4. Is there any information on the father?

I saw a picture of her other children and they look so adorable:-) they shouldn't have to suffer none of these kids should. How can 1 person care for 14 children at once? I will pray for the kids and her that she does what is best for the children. I don't know that taking them away from her is the right thing, seeing how her other children responded to her it was touching.

[schmear happens]

6. Well said...I applaud your sensitivity...She may very well have issues

but she is their mother. And those of us who are on the outside looking in need to quit bashing someone who is going through whatever she is going through...

[dysfunctional press]

20. who the 'father' of the octopi is, he probably doesn't have any legal responsibility...

i saw something the other day on this case that said that when donated sperm is used for these procedures, the sperm donor is legally absolved from any parental responsibilities/rights.

[marshall]

51. Suleman did not use an anonymous donor

The donor is a friend. And in such cases the father has been found responsible for the children. It doesn't matter whether he masturbated into a turkey baster and passed it to her in the next room or stuck his penis in her vagine and deposited it the old fashioned way.

[Lance_Boyle]

59. if he donated through a sperm bank, he's protected

if through some other private arrangement, he is not. I'm assuming that he donated through a proper bank, as the latest batch of 8 was made without his consent (i.e., they used stored semen from her past procedures - he did not donate fresh for the latest round of IVF).

[marshall]

60. He was a friend, not an anonymous donor

A sperm bank was no doubt used to store his sperm since it has been used for multiple pregnancies. I don't think he is protected by the rules that cover anonymous donors, and likewise she is not protected if he decides to sue for visitation or even custody.

[Bill McBlueState]

5. God no

The last thing we need is for the government to get the idea that it should start coming after former benefits recipients who are, according to some formula, deemed now able to pay the benefits back.

[ikojo]

15. When a Medicaid recipient dies the government

goes after the estate, whatever the size. My uncle was on IL Medicaid, they were the payor of last resort after his Medicare and his group health insurance. After he died, IL Medicaid sent a bill to my uncle's estate. My oldest brother got a crash course in interpreting insurance company explanation of benefit forms.

Oh yeah, they'll get what they paid out one way or the other.

Also, if Ms Suleman begins receiving a bunch of high profile donations she may be setting herself up for problems with the IRS as well. I would think the million she was allegedly paid by NBC would make her ineligible for Medicaid benefits. In MO one cannot have a car newer than 1996 or a house.

[barb162]

33. If she gets a book deal and other deals, why shouldn't she pay back?

She could make millions off of this; let her pay back.

[Bill McBlueState]

39. What law do you think should be passed to make her pay back benefits?

Keeping in mind that the law would need to apply retroactively, how should it be worded to require her to pay back her benefits? I'm curious whether your proposal would require me to pay back the food stamp money my family and I received while I was in grad school.

[barb162]

48. WIndfalls such as she may get from book deals, etc

should be used to pay back the system.


I think your situation is different.

Remember how Fred Goldman got a judgement against OJ Simpson for his book deal? http://blog.totalbankruptcy.com/archives/bankruptcy-news-and-events-oj-simpsons-book-sale-cancelled-by-bankruptcy-filing.html

CA or the US or whoever is paying her for these children can try to get a judgement against Suleman for all it's paying her if she gets a windfall out of this.

Maybe the state can put a lien on current monthly payments if she profits from this.

Write a law? Sorry, this case is way too unique as this woman admits she has spent about 100,000 to get IVF while she has the first six kids on food stamps. She's screwing the system royally.

[remoulade]

61. If you win the lottery or get a million dollar book deal for doing nothing, yes you should.

...

[no name no slogan]

43. If she got benefits by committing fraud, she will have to pay them back

If she unlawfully collected public assistance by being deceptive, she WILL be responsible for paying them back-- and may be charged with a crime, as well. If she had $$$ for IVF and plastic surgery, but was still collecting benefits, chances are there's some sort of fraud going on.

[Bill McBlueState]

44. the OP didn't say anything about fraud

Not that you're wrong.

[barb162]

49. That's what I'm guessing.

I wonder if there is some upper limit with student loans too since she has already has 50,000+ in student loans and intends to take out more loans for September when she intends to return to school (which I can't figure how she'll do).

[Warpy]

7. Go after that clinic and fertility doctor

because they're the ones who risked her life by violating the standard of care.

[barb162]

36. She said the doc explained the risks to her.

Although I think the doc was an idiot implanting that many embryos, he's not the primary person responsible for all of this. Suleman is.

[Warpy]

42. Uh, he IS responsible

The guidelines out there are quite strict for women her age. He could easily have killed her. He was just using her to go for some sort of record.

Medicine isn't a hair salon and the customer isn't always right. This doctor was unethical and needs to have his license pulled before he kills the next baby besotted woman who wanders into his office.

[barb162]

46. Guidelines v. law

He certainly is unethical IMHO and shouldn't have a license. But she is ultimately responsible. He didn't force all those embryos on her. She wanted all the rest of the embryos implanted. He probably has as many screws loose as she does.

[Warpy]

53. He probably does and the state is investigating him and his clinic

and I have an expectation that at least one of them will be out of practice soon.

This guy is a menace. He could easily kill the next woman.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. Are you going to get torches and pitchforks after her too? I am so disappointed in the lack of

compassion of many DUers concerning Ms Suleman. I believe she is mentally ill and needs help.

[barb162]

52. She's a mental case

and a con artist who is soaking the taxpayers. And I'd be willing to bet as soon as those babies get to toddler age, she will want more embryos made up as she will start feeling that void" again she talks about.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

56. Your own term "mental case" shows your lack of compassion for someone suffering from

mental illness. I hope for her sake and the sake of all of her children she gets help and yes, that those children get help they need.

I will repeat, I am very disappointed with many DUers regarding this.

[leftstreet]

10. Have there been any DU polls asking if Wall Street bankers should pay us back?

:shrug:

[ghurley]

14. Repaying bailout...

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/02/05/business/NA-US-Goldman-Sachs-Bailout-Money.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100303563.html

[Harry Monroe]

30. I don't know of any, but HELL YES they should pay our taxpayer money back!!

Every last fucking red cent of it.

[Quantess]

17. Doesn't she owe upwards of $50,000 in student loans?

Those definitely need to be paid back! I think the government will go after her for that.

[Bill McBlueState]

40. of course

That's why they're called student loans. Believe me, the government's mechanism for getting back student loans is robust enough.

Whether she should have to pay back things like TANF is a more interesting question.

[RB TexLa]

19. What about people with just 5 kids who took food stamps? Should they have to repay if they get

a better job, or otherwise come into a windfall? Is the number 14? Or 10? Or 5? Or 3?

People with 2 kids don't have to repay their food stamps but people with 3 would have to repay? Looks like we are going to have to set a magic number of kids at which aid programs become loans.

Guess right now it's 14.

Magic number 14. "Got 14 kids, well you do better than you are now and we are going to expect every dime of this back with interest!" "Oh, you have 13 kids, I'm so sorry Ma'am, we are here to help you, no there is no repayment for this, it's part of being a compassionate society of people."

[Bill McBlueState]

41. this is what I've been trying to get at

What exactly is this law going to look like that requires certain benefits recipients to repay the government if their fortune improves?

[tammywammy]

21. Well, she'll be cut off I'd assume if she get sso much money

I just don't understand how someone could afford IVF treatments and still be on food stamps.

[libodem]

22. I feel sorry for the babies

and for the other 6 kids at home. She has a darling little 3 year old that is autistic or something and another one with speech delay. She is collecting disability payments for them. Where are the Catholic Charities? The Pope must love the hand of God in all of this. For that matter all of the Faith Based Charities the government is propping up? She is going to need help. And a lot of it. She has to be mentally unbalanced to have wanted even one more baby when she already has 6. I hope she had her tubes tied. She is already competing with those prolific, Duggers. I don't know what I'd do if I were the wish fairy. Grant them an empty bank owned Mc Mansion, 15,000 a month food stamps, a small grey hound bus for transport, a maid, cook, chauffeur, gardener, laundry worker, $howmuchfordiposablediapers.00. Or have welfare come and take the babies away at the first sign of neglect, temper filled child abuse attack, or post-partum depression. I'm just ranting free association style....don't flame me, bro.

[Cleita]

23. Should she put her children to work to pay the Govt. back?n/t

[barb162]

50. Never! Child labor laws.

[baldguy]

24. How will that help the kids?

[Raskolnik]

25. The fertility clinic should bear a large portion of the costs. n/t

[SoCalDem]

54. AMEN.. they are the "problem" here..

They should be REQUIRED to carry insurance to cover costs for every birth that results in more than 3..

If they had to carry a separate policy for the MILLIONS of dollars that it could cost the insurers, you would see an IMMEDIATE change in the way these doctors did their in vitro procedures.

They would probably only introduce 3 embryos at a time..

Of course a DNA test that proved that one of the 3 (or more?) had divided on their own, would not be the "fault" of the doctor, but any individual embryo, over the 3, would be on HIS dime...up to the 18th birthday..

We would start seeing fewer and fewer births betond the triplet-range..

[Evoman]

26. I just got an image of a bunch of financial assholes and CEO's with suitcases of money

hiding behind Octomom and little heap of kids. In front of her, a DUer points as her and tells her to GIVE THE MONEY BACK as the bankers laugh their fucking asses off.

:(

[CreekDog]

27. Absolutely not, her work related disability was legitimate

That I think she's cuckoo bananas is not material to the issue of whether her work related injury over a decade ago is legit or not.

[MiniMe]

28. No, unfortunately there will be others who are hurt by that attitude

who shouldn't be. It just opens up a big can of worms. I disaree with her decision, and with the doctor's competence, but I don't think they should ask for the money back. I would, however, support whoever her student loans are with to cut her off and ask her to start repayment. If she used the loans for school, that would be one thing, but since she plans on taking care of her family with it, it is another. Plus, it may make it harder for another student who really needs the loan for school to get one.

[ColbertWatcher]

29. She should pay as much back as the banks getting bailouts are paying. n/t

[kwassa]

31. Is she included in the stimulus package?

She certainly needs a bailout.

[Thothmes]

38. No. every red cent of that money will be needed to take care

of the kids.

[tuckessee]

45. I don't know.

At this point, however, it is more about the children than Ms. Suleman.

[BOSSHOG]

47. Why the Caveat?

What difference does endorsements, book deals have to do with her paying back the government? Her eight babies were no accident. She does not have a spouse, nor a means of support.

Should I get my ass in debt way over my head, then tell the loan agencies that if I write a book I might pay ya back?

Living responsibly is the core of liberalism. I don't care how many babies she has but she can damn well pick up the tab.

And I have to ask, what are her plans? Ten next time?

[cherish44]

58. No

I think she's irresponsible and possibly crazy but NO if they make her pay it back then everyone else who collects assistance should have to. It's not fair to single her out just because her story is more sensational. Regardless of how much people want to punish this woman, they have to remember those children had no say in how they came into this world and have nothing to do with what kind of person their mother is. If she ends up making a bunch of money, she should pay some back voluntarily if she can afford to, it would be the right thing to do...but I don't think that's going to happen.