Are you a pussy?

[devilgrrl]

Feb. 9, 2009 | On Oc. 30, 2008, Army Pvt. Adam Lieberman attempted to kill himself via prescription drug overdose at Fort Carson, Colo. After swallowing the pills, he painted a suicide note on the wall of his barracks that read, "I FACED THE ENEMY AND LIVED! IT WAS THE DEATH DEALERS THAT TOOK MY LIFE!"

Lieberman survived the attempt. Five days later, his mother, Heidi, arrived in Colorado and was told that her son would be charged with defacing government property for scrawling his suicide note on the barracks wall. Heidi Lieberman told her son's commanding officer that she would repaint the wall herself to "make this stupidity go away." The officer took her up on her offer.

Heidi Lieberman painted over the note, documenting both the note and the paint job photographically. Those photos appear on this page and Pages 2, 3 and 4. On Page 5 there are two undated photos of Adam Lieberman in uniform.

The final page shows a mock Army document produced by an unknown person in Fort Carson's 3rd Brigade Combat Team (which is not Lieberman's unit), apparently to poke fun at troops who seek medical attention. Stacks of the "Hurt Feelings Report" were found near a sheet where soldiers sign out to see a doctor. "Reasons for filing this report: Please circle Yes or No," the Hurt Feelings Report directs. Options include: I am thin skinned; I am a pussy; I have woman-like hormones; I am a queer; I am a little bitch; I am a cry baby; I want my mommy; All of the above.



more: http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2009/02/09/coming_home_one/

[LostinVA]

1. This is disgusting

Homophobic, misogynistic (same thing, basically), against all kinds of Army regulations and Federal laws.

[shadowknows69]

112. And horribly rampant in our military

Of course that's an assesment based on my limited experience of driving troops around in a cab for two years, and it was still about a 80/20% cool to asshole raitio, but the assholes were HUGE assholes and didn't care if you knew it.

[Solly Mack]

2. K&R

[YOY]

3. He really needed to suck it up and be 'a man'

Real men hold their feeling and emotions inside of them. It builds 'character'

:sarcasm:

Bitter, mean, hateful, unhappy character...but character nonetheless!

That note is really vile. There are people who complain without merit...but that note is not targeted at one of them and furthermore is about as permanent jockstrap to the forehead as it gets. Money says whoever wrote it has some serious fucking issues.

[patrice]

4. Not unusual.

I am a veteran myself;I was old enough when I enlisted to recognize what they were doing to us.

I also have a family member whose job it was to carry this kind of stuff off, before he retired. It's weird, everything that you hear about the reich-wing, all of the kooky stuff that you think is just urban legend or stereotypes or bigotry: It's all true. The man's job was to genuinely BREAK people, so that they would kill or help to kill on command. No lie.

[Maru Kitteh]

140. What do they do when you won't do it? Kill on command. What if you won't break?

[Deep13]

5. Real men are ignorant, red-neck, neanderthal bullies, apparently.

The military mind-set is a necessary evil. I can't understand these people who glorify it or wax nostalgic for military values.

[Captain Hilts]

6. The military is a VERY diverse organization and blanket statements like that don't apply. nt

[Deep13]

9. I think it does.

Unquestioning obedience, reverence for authority and tradition, an acceptance of violence, the inherent conservatism, the suppression of individuality--like I said, these are necessary for the military to function, but they are not values that are generally compatible with a free and democratic society. These may not be the values of every person in uniform, but it really seems like they are the values of the military as a whole.

[Captain Hilts]

11. Military values value the collective over the individual and are not motivated by money.

Don't believe the ads, there is no such thing as "An Army of One."

And how did the military learn to accept black leaders before academia did?

Who is the Adm. Bruce Grooms of Harvard U.? Yale? UChicago? Any of them have a black president? I'll bet you've never heard of Bruce Grooms.

How do you explain the totally socialist Marine colonel I know? Gen. Zinni? Gen. Clark? George C. Marshall?

You just don't know what you are talking about and are clearly unfamiliar with the differences between officer and enlisted, Navy vs. Army, aviation vs. surface fleet and sub fleet, etc.

[arcadian]

22. Not motivated by money?

You've never seen Pentagon City, the city built by contractors right outside the Pentagon.

[Captain Hilts]

26. I live in the DC area and it has nothing to do with the Pentagon. nt

[NeedleCast]

46. The Pentagon is the workplace of tens of thousands

The working population of the Pentagon is larger than that of many small cities. It also happens to sit on prime real estate just outside Washington DC.

Such a shocker that there's retail services built around it...

[arcadian]

49. You make it sound like I'm talking about The Gap and Ben & Jerry's

Nope I'm talking about the defense contractor filth that feeds off our tax dollars, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Dyncorp, Northrop Grumman and hundreds more. To say that the "values" of the military is not about money is grossly inaccurate, from the highest paid general to the lowliest PFC, it's all about money, the General who enters the private sector and throws pitches to his former colleagues to generate business for his new bosses that churn out death and destruction. The PFC who enters the military for the only form of economic welfare this country has right now. Join the military and you have job security and health benefits for at least a little while.

[Captain Hilts]

64. For decades it was the largest office building in the world, with some floors below ground level.

A friend of mine works in the office of Sec. Defense and is a liberal vegetarian.

Shocking there is a shopping center there.

[arcadian]

76. Do you read English?

You claim to know all about Pentagon City but your posts reveal otherwise. Do some research before you come on here blabbin' about things you know very little about.

[rpannier]

107. And how does that relate to the men and women who serve?

They are not motivated by money

[markbark]

142. Umm...

Pentagon City, while no doubt built by contractors, is not a monument to defense contractors sucking off the government teat but rather a temple to money and commerce so common in America.
In other words: A SHOPPING MALL.

A hundred or so stores anchored by Macy's and Nordstrom.

--MAB

[Deep13]

24. Civilian culture operates on self-interest...

...not the quasi-fuedal loyalty of the military. Frankly, we are back to the same argument that pit the Spartans against the Athenians.

I dispute the general officers you mention are socialists. Anyway, I'm talking about the forest, not the trees. This is a topical conversation, so I don't have a detailed argument prepared. Nevertheless, I am familiar with the distinctions you mention.

[arcadian]

53. It's not "quasi", it's full on.

U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry maintains that.

[patrice]

68. No joke. I could tell you true stories about someone who is into this, but I won't.

Suffice it to say that several people think he has gone insane.

[LanternWaste]

164. I imagine it helps us more easily objectify them

I've never know an enlisted person or veteran who was not an individual. However, I'm sure that many Americans believe that people who don't think just as they themselves do aren't *really* individuals but rather some hack-authored sub-literate sci-fi collective brain-- I imagine it helps us more easily objectify them (and thus better validate our own selves) without the bitter aftertaste of our own morality or guilt...

[seabeyond]

12. since rape is rampant and ignored, i would argue your point. it may not

be every individual, but it is part of the system.

[Captain Hilts]

14. I would say that about society in general. nt

[seabeyond]

25. to an extent and more so since the macho male last 8 yrs. but only to an extent

in the military it is absolutely ignored or dismissed, ...... allowed. it is not allowed in society as a whole

[patrice]

69. Not just rape. Sex is a constant. Everyone plays the games.

[Cid_B]

135. Gee, I guess it isn't part of the system.

http://www.preventsexualassault.army.mil/

[robinlynne]

89. especailly right now when they recruit even felons and gang members.....

[JANdad]

8. You mean values like:

1. Reporting to work ON TIME
2. Taking pride in ones appearance
3. Respect for a code of conduct
4. Teamwork
5. Sacrifice
6. Self Reliance
7. Discipline (self)
8. Physical Fitness
9. Camaraderie
10. Serving ones country (It is more than "Defending")

[Captain Hilts]

13. Well said. nt

[Deep13]

17. partly

"1. Reporting to work ON TIME" Civilians do that too.

"2. Taking pride in ones appearance" Again, civilians do that too. Despite that, I'm not convinced that pride is a virtue. (The RC Church considers it a sin.)

"3. Respect for a code of conduct" Unquestioning adherence is one of the values I mean.

"4. Teamwork" Contradicts #6. Civilians act in teams too.

"5. Sacrifice" You mean a willingness to sacrifice and the glorification of those who do. Yes, that is one of them.

"6. Self Reliance" Contradicts #4. In point of fact, no military is self-reliant. Armed forces are consumers only, not producers. They depend on their supply lines.

"7. Discipline (self)" You've got to be kidding. A lack of discipline will put you in the stockade or brig. It is obviously imposed by the institution and not the individual.

"8. Physical Fitness" Okay.

"9. Camaraderie" Yeah, civilians never have that.

"10. Serving ones country (It is more than 'Defending')" Its Constitutionally-stated purpose is "common defense." I dispute that military service necessarily means service to the nation. It is definitely service to the government, but it is pretty clear that the government does not always act in the interest of our citizens.

Anyway, this list typifies the notion that being in the military somehow makes a person better than the fat, lazy, dishonorable civilians that pay for your livelihood and work to keep our ships afloat and our soldiers in the field.

[Ishoutandscream2]

32. Great post

I have ex military in my work who are so condescending to "civilians" such as myself who don't really know what is "really going on." I swear, some of them are such jerks. The ones who I have worked with who don't usually display that type of swagger are the ones who weren't officers.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

35. That's disconcerting.

My father is a veteran and a former ranger, but he's always been very quiet and humble about his service. Then again, a tour in Vietnam will probably do that to you.

[Ishoutandscream2]

39. I know that this is just where I am

And the two officers I work with, 1 is retired Air Force, and never served in combat. The other is now reserve, and he has served two tours in Afghanistan. He is so cocky and full of himself. He is already shitting all over Obama - saying he's a socialist. And he says liberals can't fight wars.

[8 track mind]

127. "Liberals can't fight wars"

Dad would be amused to hear that. :rofl:

I know what you are going through, i have worked with the same types of egotistical dip shits.

[8 track mind]

126. This is exactly true.

My dad fought in the 1968 Tet Offensive. He does not talk about his time in the US Army whatsoever. He will if you directly ask him about it. I believe you are right, a tour of duty in Vietnam will do that to you.

My brother and i still don't know how he got his Bronze Star. We are kind of afraid to ask really.

[Maru Kitteh]

141. It's just somethin' around the eyes......... he reminnds me of ...........me!

It appears he's an educated man - yep - I'm sure - I hate im."


FYI: these are not random rabblings, I apologize if they seem so. They actually relate to a very good movie starring Val Kilmer and others called "Tombstone."

[PVnRT]

54. +1

:thumbsup:

[Cronopio]

115. Put "blind" or "blindly" at the front of any one of those sentences and you end up with this ...

They're good values, but not nearly good enough by themselves.

[JANdad]

145. It was said better here:

"We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it."

Your post is very condescending...I can not explain what it is to serve in the military to one whom has never served, let alone one that tries to diminish what it means to serve...

Oh and btw...If you think that self reliance is not a value of the military then you have NO idea what you are talking about...

[Touchdown]

163. Tell me you didn't miss the point of that movie.

Col. Jessup was so full of his self importance that he used those as buzzwords to shut down the trial and put that little punk, Tom Cruise in his place. He was weaseling out of his responsibility to his troops by evoking this flowery, more patriotic that thou attitude to justify the murder of one of his own troops.

he was also convicted.

I am a vet as well. So much of that you espouse is nothing more that sloganeering and condescension towards those who see through it. It's all bullshit, most of my Army buddies also recognized it for what it was as well. An excuse not to think for yourself, and develop your own ethics.

[JANdad]

165. Yes...I get the point of that movie

And I am sorry that you felt that your time in the military was wasted and you feel that the values instilled (does not take on all or there would be no dis-honorable) were "bullshit"

Perhaps you made "buddies" with the wrong crowd...

[Touchdown]

167. Never said my time was wasted.

Don't read too much into my individual insights. Everybody's experience is different. There is no single, monolithic way to experience military service.

Let me just say it was those above me, rather than my buddies... all the way up through Weinberger.

[NavyDavy]

166. people in the military pay taxes also so we basically pay our own

salaries....and if you haven't been in then shut your pie hole.....your an a** for trying to degrade us who served with honor and dignity....

[LoZoccolo]

60. Good post!

:applause:

I sometimes wish I wouldn've joined; I think I would have learned a lot. I'd add "good posture" to the list! A friend of mine pointed out that everyone she knew who was in the military has good posture.

[patrice]

71. Some of us regard those as Human Values.

Not exclusive to the Military, ergo they should exist WITHOUT the Military.

[rpannier]

108. They should

But too often in the civilian world they don't

There are people at DU that are perfect models of not following those values

[patrice]

124. Everything boils down to FAMILY

well almost everything, that is.

[Nevernose]

128. That could apply to kindergarten teachers, too

Just sayin'.

[patrice]

66. A "blanket" statement may not be relevant, but what you describe is EXACTLY

what goes on at many Family gatherings and I speak from numerous personal experiences. So if it isn't a blanket, it's something, culturally, NEARLY as big as a blanket and it IS about destroying the individual and replacing the individual with a CULT.

NO

wonder the suicide rate is so high. Take away a person's identity and then

LIE

them into mass murder. Why is anyone surprised by their suicides?

[Chulanowa]

81. Whatever neckless Limbite wrote this should have been around for WW1 or WW2...

"Real men" were the motherfuckers sucking gas and rat shit in a trench in France, Or the melon-balled sons of bitches fighting their way into the Philippines. In both cases, medical treatment was taken completely seriously, because if a soldier is ill or injured, he can't do his job.

Apparently "real men" smoke a carton of cigarettes a day and are prone to mile schizophrenia!

[Radical Activist]

139. Yep.

Lots of men and women think that and many of them aren't in the military.

[angrycarpenter]

7. They want robots not people.

No emotions allowed except a grim kind of joy at the thought of killing the enemy. I was in the Army and I hated it because I just could not allow myself to be turned into a remorseless killer.

[Cid_B]

90. Beep

10:Beep
20:Kill
30:Goto 10

What does your DD-214 say?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

161. my...

DD-214 keeps changing... odd isn't it?

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

10. Some of the worst aspects of our military's culture right there.

And downright idiotic, especially with the alarming number of soldier suicides last month.

[Cid_B]

15. Damn.. this reminds me...

I lost my copy of FM 22-102. (Field Manual for non-military types)

[xchrom]

16. recommend

[corruptmewithpower]

18. The commanding officer is an arrogant control freak.

The author of the "Hurt Feelings Report" is a comedian. There should be no objection to a sense of humor in a soldier or in anyone else. I'm shocked so many DON'T get a chuckle out of this. Learn to laugh a little.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

31. I'll do that when soldiers with mental illnesses aren't made outcasts. nt

[corruptmewithpower]

41. In all of society people with mental illness are outcasts.

That's how we notice them, and how they notice they may have a problem. One must notice a problem prior to getting help for it, or helping anotherwith their problem.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

65. Except the mentally ill are generally ignored, stigmatized and pushed to the margins.

Help's hard to come by when your disorder is marginalized, stigmatized or delegitimatized. Unless you've been there, I doubt you'd get it.

[bobthedrummer]

74. Paradoxically, we just had 8 years of illegal unconstitutional domestic PSY-OPS,

much of it classical conditioning, to cover-up the coup of 2000 which featured a group of homicidal psychopathic cultists as close consultants to the criminally installed (never elected nor 'reelected') POTUS.

Many of these political and military leaders were/are RW whack jobs that use deception, camoflage and appearence to good effect to further their extreme RW agenda(s).

Ask yourself why so many military/intelligence/law enforcement DC careerists left after the installation of the criminal Bush/Cheney admin to form a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity/VIPS. The neocon dominated group was called "the crazies" by the men and women that were loyal to our Constitution and tasked with things like knowing the inventories of real WMD's and fighting nuclear proliferation.

In our society we have just experienced being "led" by some criminally insane people both in and out of uniform.
So we, the people, were abused and harmed by outcasts for 8 years and they got their New American Century started-as crazy as that sounds.

:hurts:

[devilgrrl]

33. "I'm shocked so many DON'T get a chuckle out of this"

You have a bizarre sense of humor. "Sick" would be a better term in this instance.

[corruptmewithpower]

42. What strikes my funny bone is not entirely my choice.

Yet I'll not apologise for it. That made up report was very humorous.

[Zodiak]

50. Really? I thought it was homophopbic and bigoted

And that is something I find pointedly NOT funny in a don't ask-don't tell scenario like the military. It contributes to the culture of violence and oppression we have heard too much about in the military over the last few years (female officer candidates raped, females soldier raped and killed in Iraq by contractors, bigotry against religions other than Christianity, firing of gay translators, killing and beating wives, etc.).

So laugh it up and the rest of us will just feel sorry for you.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

38. Most of us actually have a sense of humor.

This just isn't funny. Pity you can't see that.

[corruptmewithpower]

44. The private trying to kill himself is not funny.

The "hurt feelings report" is very funny.

The two are not related at all except being linked by a clever reporter who knows how to pull your strings.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

48. Nope. Still not funny.

Don't see anything funny about calling someone "queer" or a "woman with hormones".

And those who do...well...it really says a lot about them.

[Zodiak]

51. It says that they do not belong on DU

This site has a strict policy on anti-gay bigotry of all stripes. Defending this POS report's humor falls into that category.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

58. I totally agree. I'm just waiting for the accusations of "political correctness"

It's usually the next step they take in defending this kind of crap.

[Matariki]

57. Homophobia & sexism are funny?

Explain how that hateful piece of garbage is funny? What about it do you find funny? That it was placed where soldiers sign up to see a doctor? Is that part funny? Or using the female gender as an insult? Is that the part you think is funny?

Explain the humor, break it down for the rest of us.

[NoSheep]

129. your point of view is sociopathic

[Batgirl]

159. "The 'hurt feelings report' is very funny."

You're not as mature as the other 5th-graders who sometimes visit the DU.

[PVnRT]

55. So, calling someone a fag is funny?

How about calling someone mick, wop or chink? Are those funny, too?

[barbtries]

62. it's cruel comedy

and i found nothing humorous in it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

92. the "form" is saturated with hatred towards women

ya know it's a wierd thing--- It could have really been funny, but the context (a soldier's suicide), and the default mode to the effect that femaleness is to be shat upon, with a healthy chaser of forcefully hawked mucus, is offensive in the extreme.

I just heard that open-season-for-woman-hating attitude on a local radio station this morning. When comedians aren't smart enough to be funny, woman bashing keeps a certain target audience happy, and you never have to face consequences for it! WOW, double plus good!

[frylock]

95. if this is your idea of comedy, you need to get the fuck out a little more often..

i've seen "funnier" shit from a third grader. it may very well be an attempt at humor, but it fell WAY off the mark.

[chrisa]

98. It's not funny.

It's about as funny as saying "everybody who goes to see a psychiatrist because they're thinking about suicide are pansies and losers. Don't you think that would stop people from wanting to get help, and wind up killing themselves instead?

[girl gone mad]

109. He's a comedian in the same way..

that Nazis were artisans.

Macho bully authoritarian culture is right at the heart of most of this country's recent failures.

[Cronopio]

116. The author isn't a comedian, he/she is a sycophant. Two very different types of people.

The author was trying to ingratiate themselves with the hierarchy through humiliation. Otherwise, he or she wouldn't have made such a show of typing up and filing the questionnaire.

It wasn't a harmless laugh - the harm _was_ the laugh, and it was intentional.

[Jamastiene]

154. Wow, it only took seeing one post by you to know what kind of person you are.

Welcome to my Ignore List. Once you go there, you never return. Buh bye now.

[Marrah_G]

19. Ugh- and alot of them won't even get why it is wrong.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cid_B]

70. Like.. totally dude...

It's just not fair to kick someone's ass in a war. You should make sure that you take just as many casualties as the other other guy.

We'll send an e-vite, tell them to bring their AKs and we won't bring anything bigger than an M-4. Itll be like football and we can start at opposite sides with equal numbers and a referee to make sure everyone plays nice.

Sound good? Sheesh...


:eyes:

And those "asshole" cops? Remember this?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/06/police-investigate-explosion-in-times-square/

I'm sure you needed photos of a recruiting center because you wanted the flower arrangement you were going to send to match their colors just right.

[patrice]

72. Everyone recognizes the "need" for strong defense.

The problem is how, once you destroy personal control, the "necessary" aggression perpetuates itself in all kinds of subtle (and some not so subtle) ways, ultimately, quite possibly, creating situations in which Violence rules ALL, thusly validating itself against all other alternatives. Certainly you've heard of self-fulfilling prophecy, well multiply that potential by millions who no longer govern themselves autonomously. This IS Oppression.

[Cid_B]

77. Looks around for my "Off / On / Kill" switch...

Gosh, they must have forgotten to install it at Fort Benning. Seriously though, Soldiers are not robots. Some are weak and some are strong. Some are dumb as a bag of burnt toast but can fix an MK-19 in the field under fire and then send some back like nobodies business. Some of the smartest ones know theory and FMs but can't lead a Soldier to save their life.

What I am saying is that even though we follow certain uniform rules, regulations, tradtions etc.. we are just like the rest of society. Good.. Bad.. and everything in between.

[arcadian]

79. Are you currently in the military?

If so, what unit are you with?

[Cid_B]

83. The one with the digital camouflage and the M-4s...

Sheesh..

[arcadian]

85. What unit are you with?

Shouldn't you be peelin' potatoes in the mess hall or paintin' the hull of a ship or some other such bullshit? You know you are on the taxpayers dime.

[Cid_B]

86. You're welcome....

[patrice]

80. I pretty much agree with that. You are Us. And We are You.

... been there, etc.

[arcadian]

73. It's actually my form of protest.

Got them all worked up. Completely unprofessional. What's with the militarism that's showing it's ugly head on DU lately? I'll put you down in the -Is cool with genocide- category.

[Cid_B]

82. Duly noted...

Ill put you in the "Makes shit up to make himself feel special" category.

*looks for my list* ah hah.. there it is

Ok, you're all set. Thanks for playing...

[arcadian]

84. What am I making up?

I posted the pics on here a few days ago. Do you want to see them?

[ismnotwasm]

21. My daughter the ex- army Sargent

Says this is disgusting and not surprising.

[LostinVA]

27. My BIL the very manly ex-CWO says the same thing

The misogyny and homophobia in the Army disgusted him, and he IS a good ole boy.

[Captain Hilts]

30. I'll bet it's pretty bad in the infantry. nt

[babylonsister]

23. There are so many things wrong with this, I don't know where

to start. Except tears for the cry for help that was unheard and ignored. :cry:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

28. that's some serious woman hating right there.

If this hate were directed at any other demographic, the outcry here would fill an entire monitor.

(yes, the "form" contains some gay-hate (read: effiminate male), briefly. Way overshadowed by the endless misogyny.)

[whathehell]

56. To paraphrase -- but only slightly -- writer Susan Brownmiller "The liberal male mind, so

quick to grasp the connection between oppression and negative words and images of racial minorities, is fiercely obdurate when it comes to the treatment of women".

She wrote that in her landmark book on rape "Against Our Will" over thirty years ago...You can see how much things have progressed. :sarcasm:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

93. You are SO not kidding

and I'm fucking sick of it! The vehemence of the hatred in that "form" is scary.

I just said this (below) elsewhere in the thread, but here it is again:
"I just heard that open-season-for-woman-hating attitude on a local radio station this morning. When comedians aren't smart enough to be funny, woman bashing keeps a certain target audience happy, and you never have to face consequences for it! WOW, double plus good!"

I've noted the double standard on outrage for a million years now..... ugh, I am soooo sick of it.
I wish women would respond with boycotts or something. They never face consequences, and we're too small to scare them into decent behavior..... (btw: Why do animal rights extremeists throw paint on people in fur coats? Because it's easier to attack rich women than bikers)

(but my hun, a Vietnam vet, Drill Sergeant and Recon Marine is not like that--after the military he was a commercial deep diver, on oil rigs around the world--he's so tough, he doesn't have to wave it around trying to prove anything--and he was constantly lecturing his crews on appreciating their wives. He says there really are a hell of alot of guys with dicks for brains.....)

and I'm sick of woman hatred in general being the cultural default mode. Epithets like pussy, douche-bag, girly-man, etc etc.....

I ranted......
:rant:

[whathehell]

104. You are absolutely correct...and welcome to DU.

Check in on the Feminist groups and the Women's Rights Group...I will meet you there!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

144. hey thanks--welcome to DU to you too

hey that rhymed! :7

:hi:

[whathehell]

149. You betcha!!

[Cronopio]

120. I'm still amazed how many women I know that buy into the subtle misogyny.

They've trained themselves not to see it that way - that calling a "weak man" a women is demeaning to women - by rationalizing that they're "more of a man" than the "weak men" they know.

They're also the ones that think being one of the "mean girls" is a compliment.

How much better everyone would be if people weren't so neurotically attached to the idea of "male" and "female". Being a person is far more challenging and rewarding.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

143. oh yes! So right!

I was just reading some spiritual, metaphysical stuff and one of the notes on higher levels of consciousness spoke of dropping the gender divide!

You're so right about women who perpetuate the misogyny...no different than "Uncle Toms" and other minorities who have internalized the ugly stereotypes. I kind of think that in the case of misogyny, however, the demeaning messages are so ubiquitous, and often subtle, it makes it much more difficult to see your worth. Those who aren't able to see it and separate themselves are stuck in some very convoluted psychological mazes.

Wow, just reflecting for a moment--- how damaging for women AND men, to have to capture some tiny bit of self worth by any means necessary----usually by fighting for some perceived sense of power-- like 8 implanted fetuses, perhaps? Or a hypersexualized persona? Or uber-tough manly crime (gangs and such)?

[Sheets of Easter]

29. It wouldn't shock me if the guy who created that never saw combat.

Wouldn't shock me at all.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

34. Probably not.

Just like before a tour in Iraq or Afghanistan PTSD doesn't exist to them.

[Heidi]

36. Is that what they mean when they say, "This we'll defend"? (nt)

[pipi_k]

37. Fuckers!!!!!

This is exactly the type of thing that will cause men who really need the help to deny that they do.

They'll stuff their feelings and try to go on with life but it won't work.

Then they'll end up being the "bad guys" when PTSD causes them to beat their wives or girlfriends or kill their entire families.


:grr:

[patrice]

75. You are so totally right. It is soooo sad.

[pipi_k]

40. PS...I have just emailed this

to one of my stepdaughters, a psychologist who specializes in PTSD, especially as it relates to servicemen and women coming home from the Middle East.

I don't think she even knows what she's up against in trying to treat some of these guys...the horrible ridicule they face from their "peers"...


:(

[HughBeaumont]

43. Billions a year, folks. Billions a YEAR. Bullies here. Bullies overseas.

I fail to see how horseshit such as this would be a necessary facet in the defense of our country and the Constitution.

[kenny blankenship]

45. Well at least they capitalized "Queer"

We fought for decades for even that modicum of respect.

[patrice]

78. !!!

:rofl: :cry: :rofl: :cry: . . .

~

[deaniac21]

47. Those forms aren't nearly as hurtful as the blanket parties

thrown for non-conformists and fuck ups.

[Zodiak]

52. They still do that?

That scene in full-metal jacket disgusted me. If this is still going on, then no one learned the lesson of that movie. Their minds and souls were given up long before they got to that war...that was the whole point of making the first part of the movie basic training.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. I remeber a blanket party gone bad.

There was a guy in my outfit who was a general screw-up and 3 asskissing lifers went after him one night. He beat the crap out of all 3 of them.

[deaniac21]

101. That makes a great story but not likely a true one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

102. It is true.

The star of the party was aided by an entrenching tool and the 3 partygoers were drunk. Not to mention that they were also assholes of the first degree.

[deaniac21]

150. Normally, the target is picked for ineptness and the partiers

know they have nothing to fear.

[barbtries]

61. there's some sick puppies over there

"real" man my ass - oh. i can't even phrase my reaction. it's pissed okay, but it's also despair. people suck and don't care. people are so wrong-minded that they think emotion is a sickness and sickness is health. ack.

[Mari333]

63. hatred of ones self

is all that report says. self loathing. men like Gandhi, men like jesus, men like my own sons who exhibit gentleness and kindness are people who dont have self loathing. the adolescent chest beating stereotypes of what men should be out there are passe', but still prevail in the military. sad stuff, indeed. and it is all about hating ones self.
in your gentleness is where you find your strength.

[Cronopio]

118. Spot on. Being a man or being a human being are often mutally exclusive choices.

It doesn't have to be that way, but our screwed-up society _makes_ it that way.

Being centered, calm, and good-hearted is now rebellion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. "Real Men" kiss the brasses asses and talk about "pussies".

We called them lifers.

[omega minimo]

87. Are you desperate?

[Blue_Tires]

88. wow...the writer of that note has the mentality of a 6th grader

seems like someone in our nation's fine army forgot about concepts like teamwork and looking out for the fellow next to you -- because when danger comes he'll be the only one you can depend on...

[CaptJasHook]

131. Hey I teach middle schoolers. They are a lot more tolerant and sensitive.

I also served 4 years in the Army and have to agree with the above poster. You can't paint all soldiers with the same brush. The person who made those flyers would have faced Article 15 punishment if they had been caught. And don't forget that there are plenty of women and a fair share of GLTB folk in the military as well. So put down your brushes and get off your high horses.

Edited to say - This last part wasn't meant to be directed at you Blue Tire

[Downtown Hound]

91. Last time I saw anything that read even remotely like that was

in junior high school. And it was much more cleverly written also. I pretty much guarantee you that this individual has not seen combat. He's probably never even been in a fist fight.

I don't think all military people display this kind of mentality but people that have this kind of mentality are more likely to be at home in the military.

I hope that the soldier that tried to kill himself gets help. Too many people have had their lives destroyed by this useless war thanks to the bullshit macho posturing of another chickenhawk, bullying asshole.

[Bluebear]

94. This is soooooo Republican on so many levels

[Greenheron]

99. Fuck I'm mad

I just got news that a friend of mine who did 2 tours as a tunnel rat in Vietnam has Lymphoma( diagnosed today).He fought the VA for 30 years to get treatment and full benefits for ptsd and exposure to Agent Orange and he only recently got full benefits.
Then I come on here and read this Shit. I know from being the son of a ww2 vet(IWO JIMA) that by and large the military brass could give a fuck about a soldiers well being.

[chrisa]

96. It's not just the military.

Any male institution that values "toughness." It's like those football coaches who would cover up anything that their star quarterback did - even rape.

It's a machismo mentality where you have to take your place in the world through strengh and bullying. Everybody who doesn't is "thin skinned" and "a pussy."

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

97. The form is F'ed up enough, but making this kid's mother paint over the note

beyond insensitivity and basic decency

[soulcore]

100. Fucking sad and disgusting.

I think a lot of folks here maybe forgot the entire point of the article, the heartlessness and callousness of the modern man's military.

[pasto76]

103. Ok please just this a read

I read this today on Salon.com as well. I also live in Colorado Springs, am an Iraq veteran and deployed and redeployed to Iraq from Ft Carson.

I posted somethign to this effect on the hometown bastion of rightwing nutjobs, Gazette.com under an article regarding the suicide rate in the army currently.

This is absolutely part of the Right wing, republican, conservative average dumbshit american movement. Just LOOK at all of the tough talk on Freerepublic and other like minded sites, and look HOW FEW of the posters have actually served.

the army is nothing more than a technicians job: engage enemey target A b or C with weapon system X y or Z. Establish perimeter with variables i, ii or iii, conduct patrols under conditions 1, 2 or 3...etc.

Some people can cope with the gore, the carnage, the fear, the ambiguity, the conflict of interests, or the satisfaction of finally getting to kill on of the mutherfuckers who's been shooting at you.
Others cant. This doesnt make them bad soldiers per se, and to even find out, you have to be a member of an embarrassingly small percentage of our population.

But enter your average dumbshit american, who happens to be in the Army. Suck it up! *I* dont have any problems with what happened, you must be a fag if you do.

realize that it goes way beyond the guys in your squad or platoon. being told YOUR WRONG when you want to know why you dont have armour, when you get to go home, when you get to see your family, missing your childs birth, missing your mothers death and funeral, changing reasons for why you are there, and being told you are a TERRORIST SYMPATHIZER for even asking these questions YOU ARE WRONG

When SecDef Rummy says "too bad, go drive IED alley with canvas and aluminum HMMWV" , you were WRONG to even ask that!

When Rush says "too bad, you must not be a real soldier", you were WRONG to even think about it!

When the mayor of Colorado springs says (after a "7 hour internet search") that PTSD doesnt exist, you were WRONG to feel badly that have faced death countless times and cant coem to terms with it

You ARE WRONG to not be able to shake the nightmares and sleepless nights where you relive when your buddies were blown to pieces right next to you

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG SHUT UP AND FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

This is the culture of the Army. We would be a stronger army if leadership would eliminate this.

If the Sergeant Major of this unit had any professionalism, any regard for his troops and not his sense of manhood, and military bearing or any balls, he would have kicked the shit out of the people who posted this.

This is a disgrace. My unit had one soldier kill himself a year a half after we came home. Safe and sound at home, and the war reaches out of the darkness and takes another soldier.

SGT PASTO

[CaptJasHook]

132. Sorry about the shit, Sarge.

I feel incredibly lucky that I served in the first gulf war. Nothing like the sandtrap you people have had to deal with. But even then I saw how fucked up command was.

If you ever have time, check out what Veterans for Peace is doing. We have been working solid on trying to make sure that leadership is accountable for its decisions. We believe that if people were fully aware of the true cost of war than we see military reduction, a department of defense that meant defense and respectful treatment of those who have sacrificed to serve.

Peace

[Cid_B]

136. Gotta disagree with you on something...

"the army is nothing more than a technicians job: engage enemey target A b or C with weapon system X y or Z. Establish perimeter with variables i, ii or iii, conduct patrols under conditions 1, 2 or 3...etc."

As a Soldier I would expect you to know best that the above statement is patently false. Yes you have the basics. Flank this. Utilize that. However if you think that there isn't an art to war and combat... I'm having trouble imagining how you came to that conclusion. If it really was a big flowchart we would have lost a long time ago because anyone with a sense of creativity can beat that (technical or numerical superiority or not).

The other non-"technician" part is the most important. The leadership of Soldiers. Even a PV2 can be in charge of someone and dealing with people who's lives you literally hold in your hand cannot be a technical process.

[Jamastiene]

155. Sigh

There are no words I can say. :hug:

[Pavulon]

105. Hold your horses there, broadstrokers

I have seen that same form on a shift supervisors desk in a machine shop in pa. The idea was guys (there were no women at that shop) would deal with their petty bullshit (bob tool my whatever, left a tiny piece of metal somewhere it did not belong) without going to a supervisor to file frivolous shit. Safety for example would not fall in that category. Obviously not an army form.

As for the army I have seen stupidity there to rival anything on earth. However if you sprayed something other than a suicide note you may get 15ed, maybe not. Depends on who finds it. The army is not being given what it needs to deal with this. Not everyone in the army is a heartless bastard.

Point is not the stupid charge but the fact that the army is not taking care of guys with ptsd and other mental illness that came directly from combat. If a guy has a good service record and does 2 tours in iraq and starts fucking up, chances are he needs help. The administration needs to step up here.

That is where the attention needs to be.

[pasto76]

111. the charge is the point

anyone with a brain will know that a soldier who has been wounded and has a distinguished record, and then starts binge drinking and rebelling, has a problem. NO benefits for other than honorable discharges. PTSD will cost them for his whole loooooooooooooong life.

[Pavulon]

113. Yep, I bet there is a statistical

rise in % of ood over the last 6 years. Would bet my last time.

They are shirking paying for these guys medical care. Part of that story is army stupidity, which is prevalent in peace time.

The actual denial of care is terrible and needs attention now from the president.

[Vattel]

114. Thank you

The "form" obviously wasn't targeted at people seeking medical or psychological help. It referenced the "real man" charged with some wrongdoing.

[Cronopio]

117. "Not everyone in the army is a heartless bastard."

They just have to operate like one to survive.

[Pavulon]

123. Depends.

I served with guardsmen who worked in public service jobs (police, emt) they were guard for financial reasons. These guys were not young stupid kids. Engineers are not infantry but are combat troops. You do see assholes, but they are dealt with in unique ways.

Sure I saw obnoxious shit but also met really good people who took pride in the work they did. HET and operation is dangerous during peace time. Accidents generally result in amputations and death. Active measures were in place and enforced that reduced accidents from negligent behavior. Injuries drew attention.

I was never heartless, but some situations require a hardened mind. Dealing with sick and injured soldiers is NOT one of those areas.

The army is a huge organization and differs greatly within a single division, never mind from post to post.

[CaptJasHook]

133. Not necessarily. I saw a lot of compassion and solidarity in the Army.

[rpannier]

106. Wow!

I was stationed at Ft Carson 90-93.

They were one of the best posts to be at if you suffered from any sort of psychological issues.

I was diagnosed while there and was assigned to weekly counseling

The unit made sure I made every session -- they drove me in from the field on several occasions.

There was never any stigma attached to it.

[Joey Liberal]

110. I'm not surprised - that's how the Army is.

I spent six years in the Army and it can be a cruel place to be.

[Stinky The Clown]

119. Y'ever notics has this sort of shit is always a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy?

It is made by the same sorts of morons who photocopy their genitalia.

[Aviation Pro]

121. The person who did this is either lower enlisted of a very junior....

....NCO. My guess is a corporal.

[H2O Man]

122. Yes.

"You are what you eat."

[snot]

125. I'm simply shocked.

[obiwan]

130. I must be a pussy.

I love cats, and I hate stupidity.

And I never was in the military.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

162. I'm offended...

I'm a FUCKING ICE-EATING WITCH! and I know plenty of others, so this juvenile OP poster better walk softly...
seeya!

[Prophet 451]

134. Yep, I'm a pussy

Warm, welcoming, attractive and hairy; fits me to a tee.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYC_SKP]

137. I found this interesting

The note is appalling, but someone taking offense by your posting it is also disturbing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5020743

[Brooklyns_Finest]

138. Definately an Army stunt

I was a Marine Infantrymen. Our unit was shipped to Iraq right in the beginning of the war. We had a number of "men" come up with a whole host of excuses not to ship off. Most of the excuses were pretty lame. At the end of the day, no one really cared about the fools that did not come along. We knew we had a mission to focus on, and there was no time to tease the guys who chickened out. I can guarantee you that it was not an infantry guy who made that form. It was probably a POG (persons other than grunts)who has nothing better to do.

I also played college football. Misogyny and homophobia has always been a part of hyper-masculine environments. I don't see anyway around it. It is not something I am proud of, but it is nothing to be shocked about.

[whathehell]

151. Well, it depends on who "you" are, doesn't it?....It's fine if you are NOT the

target of the abuse -- but what about the rest of us?..You know, those of us who, by gender or orientation make up more than half the Human Race?

"Shock" might be the wrong word...How about hurt and anger at being viewed with so much hate and contempt?

[DS1]

146. oh well

[whathehell]

152. Thanks..

for all of your concern:eyes:

I'd guess you were one of the "favored"...A straight male not given to much empathy.

[Xenotime]

148. There is too much male shovanisum in the military.

For some reason you have to be "tough" to be a man. Fuck em!

[DS1]

153. Shovanisum? Is that the Cult of Sho 'Nuff?

[ferrous wheel]

157. fonetiks

:silly:

[Downtown Hound]

160. Hahahaha! He is the meanest, the baddest, and the prettiest after all

I haven't thought about this movie in YEARS! Thanks for bringing it back. :toast:

[Brooklyns_Finest]

158. You don't have to be tough to be a man,

but it sure is helpful if you are.

[deaniac21]

156. I have one that many people are awestruck by!