“New World Order” novus ordo seclorum- Your thoughts?

[bluedawg12]

The conspiracy theories about the so called “New World Order" seems to have something for everyone, right, left and further out to the fringes. Perhaps the only ones not following this are the middle majority of regular folk.

Yet, it did crop up yesterday when Dr. Henry Kissinger spoke about his foreign policy philosophy for the world, on the Charlie Rose Show and often referred to the New World Order, which Charlie Rose, somewhat befuddled, ignored and continued talking about the micropolitics of today’s world while Dr. K spoke in terms of geo-poltics and macro-politics, as if Charlie were a bit naive and had to be borne with patience.

So, I am wondering about this topic of NWO.

What do DU’ers think about this?

Does it have any relevance to today’s events in the ME, Iran, Iraq, personal liberties, a strong /premier executive, religious fundamentalism of all flavors?

Since one could tie MWO into almost any issue I am wondering what you all think?

Is it tin foil hat non-sense or, is there something more than random half truths tied together by zany bloggers?

Here’s some info. For discussion and as an FYI.


novus ordo seclorum

“The phrase New World Order is a probable mistranslation of novus ordo seclorum (which literally means "new secular order" in Latin), part of the seal of the United States. The actual phrase "New World Order" was used by George Herbert Walker Bush in the context of post-Cold-War politics.” -http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_World_Order

If there is one phrase tin foil hat conspiracy theorists love to hate it’s “New World Order.”

It seems to suit the conspiracy theorists on both the right and the left.

If you do a search on the term you will find all sorts of tie- in’s with the Illuminati, the TriLateral Commission, the Rand corp., the Bilderberg group, probably skull and bones -if you look hard enough.

http://www.carpenoctem.tv/cons/nwo.html

http://www.threeworldwars.com/nwo.htm
New World Order Definition

It was quite amazing to hear Mr. Kissinger speak about his views on globalization and the “ New World Order” yesterday on the Charlie Rose Show, as if on script from some conspiracy mongering fringe group.

Then, I did a search on it. I guess it’s true and not new. Mr. K- has been tauting this idea for decades.

Silly us, here at DU, thinking in terms of provincial small time politics in limited terms such as the United States and dems vs. repugs, when guys like Mr. K think in geo-global terms of a New World Order.

Here for your enjoyment is some info. on this:

Here is how the right wing sees it. Paradoxically, they hate and fear the UN, gun control and used to fixate on Janet Reno, the ATF, Ruby Ridge and WACO as examples of encroaching one world rule.

>> "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.."--
Bill Clinton USA Today--3-11-93, page 2a

"Gun registration is not enough"--Attorney Generral Janet Reno--12-10-93--Associated Press

"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms
is the goal"--Janet Reno <<- http://www.freedomdomain.com/nwoquote.htm


Yet, it is from the right that continued allusions to the New World Order continues to emerge.

http://www.robodoon.com/kissinger_quotes.htm

>>"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order . Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."

Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991 <<


>>The Bush doctrine announced by George Walker Bush, his son, in 2002, was the first attempt to make New World Order (or Bushtopia or UStopia or UStopiA as some started to call it scornfully) the basis of some kind of military order. He was successful only in putting together the so-called Coalition forces consisting of the US, UK, and some small number of Australian and Polish forces. A larger number of countries, some who refused to be named and others (like Denmark) who questioned US tactics (like the suspected kidnapping of a high-ranking Iraqi general under war crimes investigation and house arrest in Denmark on the very night Bush announced a 48-hour deadline for Saddam Hussein), were announced to be part of a "coalition of the willing" largely defined by White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, as if no political leader was willing to be affiliated with any statement on its exact definition nor its motivation. <<
-http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_World_Order


>>''Too often America's India policy is justified as a way to contain China. But the reality has been that so far, India and America have found it in their interest to maintain a constructive relationshiop with China,'' Kissinger wrote in the Washington Post yesterday.

''America's global strategy benefits from the Indian participation in building a new world order. But India will not serve as America's foil with China, and will resent any attempts to use it in that role,'' he added.<<
-http://www.newmatilda.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=565


This site has some interesting links and references:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/New_World_Order/New_World_Order.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/New_World_Order/Gods_Warrior_Twins.html
God's Warrior Twins
Christian & Islamic Fundamentalism have a lot in common

>>UNIVERSAL VICTIMS
A chief similarity between Christian and Islamic fundamentalists is their patriarchal family structure and victimization of women. This is played out not only in private, but also in the public sphere where fundamentalisms rule. The appalling treatment of women in Afghanistan by the Taliban came to the forefront following 9/11....While US laws currently don't dictate female attire, not long ago it was sinful for women to show their ankles. Many were required to adhere to a strict and insufferable dress code. Though today's Christian fundamentalists do not generally require the head-to-toe garments worn by the Puritans of the past, many still allow only loose fitting dresses with high necklines, cut no shorter than the knee, often uncomfortable for the occasion or season.<<


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/New_World_Order/Absolute_Power.html

>>“The dominant trend of our time is globalization, marked by elimination of trade barriers, downsized governments, greater reliance on the private sector, reduced regulation of business, and an increasingly global economy.

Many people call that economic progress, but this form of globalization is actually political regression, threatening to destroy democratic institutions and revert to something resembling feudalism.
...The reason should be obvious: Globalization isn't about competition among nations, it's about the increasing power of mega-corporations over nations...”<<


http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=4&id=1482
Henry Kissinger: Now, Back to Defining a New World Order
07/12/2004-By Henry A. Kissinger**


http://torrentchannel.com/new_world_order_and_the_alien_agenda
The New World Order and the Alien Agenda

http://www.antipixel.com/blog/archives/2002/12/14/kissinger_quits_panel.html
>>Henry Kissinger knows which side of the bread has the butter.
Kissinger Quits as Chairman of 9/11 Panel
David Stout, New York Times
Dr. Kissinger had come under heavy criticism since his selection by President Bush last month.
Dr. Kissinger had resisted urgings that he divulge the clients of the consulting firm he founded after leaving government.
Could the disclosure requirements have been too much?<<

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1825
Kissinger Gives Bush Bad Advice on Iraq
October 2, 2006
Ivan Eland

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070301fabook86216/michael-h-hunt/the-american-ascendancy-how-the-united-states-gained-and-wielded-global-dominance.html

>>The American Ascendancy: How the United States Gained and Wielded Global Dominance. Michael H. Hunt. : University of North Carolina Press, 2007, 416 $34.95
Reviewed by G. John Ikenberry, Foreign Affairs, March/April 2007

>>A precondition for dominance was the extraordinary growth of the nation's economy from the nineteenth century onward, generating unmatched wealth and technological capabilities. But material prosperity depended on the building of a strong modern state that could govern and wield geopolitical power. Moreover, the "American century" was planned and engineered by political elites who embraced a distinctive American nationalism of "greatness"; it was not something that emerged inevitably from deeper historical forces. <<

[Codeine]

1. Please.

"Novus Ordo Seclorum" does NOT mean "New Secular Order." :eyes: It means "New Order for the Ages."

[Eric J in MN]

3. Seclorum=Ages? NT

NT

[Codeine]

5. Yes.

It's the possessive plural form of "saeculum," which means generation, or age. "Secular" comes from the word "secularis."

[vote 4 democracy]

2. absolutely - its all tied together and is the philosophy/theory by which the neocons

. . . . ah hem . . . "govern"

[EVDebs]

4. Martin A. Lee's 'Their Will Be Done' re SMOM is something you should read

Their Will Be Done
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

along with this tidbit about the SMOM, formerly Knights Hospitaler's, earliest enemy the Knights Templar

""...in 1381 a peasants' rebellion occurred, organized by reform-minded parish priests in contact with a shadowy, secretive "Great Society" and led by a guy called Walter the Tyler. Now it may be that tyler is an obsolete spelling of the occupation roof tiler, but Robinson contends that tyler in this case is sergeant at arms of a Masonic lodge, a natural choice to lead a violent mob. During this insurrection, there was a great deal of lopping off of heads of aristocrats and upper church officials, lawyers and authority in general; but the mob seems to have been deliberately guided toward the destruction of property, particularly property belonging to the Knights Hospitaller and the Church. One piece of Hospitaller property was spared, that temple which had been the principal temple of the Knights Templar prior to the suppression of the order in 1307.""

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/Born_in_Blood_Book_Review.htm

After say 1948, the fascist SMOM organization(Hospitaler) supplanted Freemasonic (Templar) dominance over US politics. The forces of intolerance now seek to destroy the forces of tolerance.

This is the secret subtext to the conspiratorial 'New World Order' you grope for.

Now read about eschatology, in

The Catholic Origins of Futurism, Preterism
http://biblelight.net/antichrist.htm

showing the Jesuit origins of Bush's base 'End Times' world view. It's keyed upon misinterpretations of the Bible in order to exploit Middle East tensions. A 'Third Temple' isn't necessary, yet everything these neocons can do to promote this abomination are being set into motion. Ask yourself "why ?"

[Deja Q]

6. It's a "wait and see" approach. I will not let existing hyperbole cloud my judgment;

nor does connecting proverbial dots help because so many things are going on that, individually suggest something, but when all put together leads to something entirely different... or nothing at all.

In short, it's a jumble of 5 or 6 different puzzles and sometimes there is no conspiracy. Indeed, the only conspiracy that tends to work is the one nobody knows about.

[randycrow]

7. Hopefully bringing Kissinger out

means things are not going as well as the New World Order communi$t$ would like. Neocons are ruling us as a de facto Dictatorship and that has got to be a big part of the plan. High oil prices destitute us which is key to the plan and Neocons moved them up some with the British poaching in Iranian waters. Probably a test. Clogging the Straights of Hormuz with burning oil tankers seems to me as almost a given. For some reason I feel Saudi Arabia may end up a target even though they are Sunni. A fake a North Korea, a jab at Syria, an attack on a Saud-i's oil terminal, an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Baghdad burning, a Shiite mosque blown to bits as an Easter present, and then maybe assassinate Sistani. Neocons hate the Russians. The Navy and subs have got to get involved. The New World Order discussion knocked me over also. It is almost as if they are angry and Neocons are throwing the term New World Order in our face, like, you guys are messing up our plans and rocking the boat and you are about to find out what NWO really means.

[TwilightGardener]

8. So I wonder if the goal of the PNAC crowd is not just to OWN

the oil for US dominance, but also to control oil prices and supply in order to manipulate and control US citizens and our economy, and also to either gain leverage over other countries or foster wars between them? Is this what you're saying? Or am I a big whackaloon?

[Jcrowley]

9. Old World Colonialism

Same old song

Check out the front page of NY Times on March 8 1992.

http://work.colum.edu/~amiller/wolfowitz1992.htm

[nealmhughes]

10. Novo= "New", male, singular, adjective. Ordo="Order" noun, masculine, singular.

"Seclorum" from Vigil's "magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo": "a brand new order of the ages is born". Seclorum = temporal, earthly, and is a genitive, which is a possessive, so more likely the logical English is: "The New Age's Order" or "New Order of/for the Ages."

[bluedawg12]

11. Three troubling items:

Three troubling items going on in the world today.

While conspiracy theorists may use a collection of disparate facts to further their own point of view some of the facts that they cite remain true. It’s not that what they see isn’t there, as much as, what they make of what’s out there. It’s about the interpretation of those facts.

In the 20th century Communism and Nazi’ism sought to provide a unified model for world governance and offered a system by which to manage the affairs of nations.

Those models having failed, now, the current conservative movement has decided to offer their model for world governance. In the process, ironically, they have gotten away from their core conservative concepts and sound awfully like to old 20th century fascist ideas.

Conservatives used to say:
Keep government small, keep taxes low, have a strong military, keep a low deficit, and stay out of the affairs of other nations. They are doing none of that now, the “new” (neo) conservatives have turned those concepts on their head. These folks have been at it for some time. To hear Dr. K last night ruminating about a NWO and laying it out there, while poor Charlie was trying to talk in 20th century terms of nations and politics, Henry the K was talking about world rule!

Three items are troubling:

Economic globalization:

1.) There is a push for a global economy from both the left and the right.
While it may help people in China to bring in new jobs and also, by the way, to have access to our technology, it’s not doing much for the average American worker, nor our unions.

2.) The ascendence of corporate power in US politics and their funding of elections.

3.) The ascendence of a multi-national corporations, with out true allegiance to the nation of origin, with-out paying taxes into the coffers for the common welfare.

4.) The movement for privatization can then take corporations world wide viz Chenyburton.
Doing work for the US gov. in Iraq, talk about expanding. Isn't Cheneyburton moving to Bahrain?

5.) The Grover Norquist anti-tax movement is the precursor to the RW policy that led to #### cutting taxes while running up 8 billion a month in war costs.

6.) Go back further and thank, Regan's darling, Milton Friedman for capitalism with out conscience.

7.) Privatization means no accountability to the citizens only to share holders.



2.) Political globalization

a.) viz a viz “spreading democracy” abroad.

b.) The ascendence of the US as a military power, policeman of the world, because we now live in a monopolar world dominated by one super power, since the collapse of the former USSR.

c.) this becomes the justification of the preemption policy for war, which replaced the Powell doctrine.

d.) Let's not forget that genius read Sharansky's book last summer and decided that nations that have McDonald's ( I guess the #### metaphore for freedom and deomcracy) don't got to war. Hence, his justification and his hopes that elections in Iraq will superimpose an over arching democratic good will amnig the three factions, business will come flooding in and the Tigres and Euphrates will again blossom into Eden.

3.) The demise of nations.

a.) The idea of a cooperative world that minimizes the old concepts of nations based on language.

b.) Promoted by Dr. K and seen in the unification of Europe according to his read on things.

In a nut shell nations are out multi-national corporations are in. Oh yea, and srew democracy, in the long run. Who the hell eelcted the CEO of any comoany to lead this nation?

[jannyk]

12. Charlie Rose continues the topic 'New World Order' all

next week. He will have former foreign and domestic Secretaries of State as guests to discuss the same topic.

Actually, he posed his question to Kissinger as 'advice for the next President as to America's place in the NWO' to which Kissinger retorted "the advice would be suitable for the current President".

If you missed last night's show you can see the whole thing here on google video. The first half hour is NYT's John Burns, now returning to Iraq and downright pessimistic re: surge and any 'good' outcome in Iraq. Highly recommended!! Kissinger takes up the second half hour-

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3133982007582939329&q=tvshow%3ACharlie_Rose

[bluedawg12]

13. Burns is always in favor of our remaining

in Iraq.

Has anyone noticed that he is predictable on this?

Same with Michael Ware of CNN- it's awlays stay there, not a good chance of getting better, but stay anyway.

[jannyk]

16. Yes they do. However, as both have been in Iraq

for a number of years (Burns for 5+ - prior invasion)I think they have a genuine compassion for and horror of what will happen to the general Iraq population, once the 'finger' that is the US troops is pulled from the 'dyke'.

In last night's show, Burns held out only the tiniest wisp of hope that a good outcome for the US is achievable, in fact 'highly improbable' was a phrase he used more than once. However Burns and to a lesser degree Ware, look at these things from a 'global perspective' not through the US monocular. They have a good handle on what will happen if the US suddenly pulls out from the disaster they created - they know the people and they know the region - and they know it won't be good.

I for one, prefer to hear the truth about the very complex situation in Iraq, rather than the 'stay the course' vs 'immediate troop withdrawal' invective it has been dumbed down to here.

Last night, Burn's estimated 5-10 years before Iraq could achieve the political strength and stability to govern itself. That's very probably the truth - but I don't hear anyone here telling us the truth - do you?

[bluedawg12]

19. The global view . US view and regional view should

The global view . US view and regional view should ideally all coincide.

If it weren't for the ham fisted naive approach to the region and making a mess out of things change could have been approached much more thoughtfully. But we all know that.

The UN wrote a report about three years ago on what ails the ME, written by middle eastern scholars.

They cited lack of education, the low place of women and women’s influence in balancing society,
lack of jobs as the top priories.

Now, we have gone and toppled a dictator and had nothing in the cluster-farce that followed to replace him. No security, a blind eye and deaf ear to the historic factionalism that lay seething underneath a nation where the minority ruled, a place where the middle class has exited in the millions and displacement of Iraqi's with-in the nation and exiting the nation to neighboring countries has led to an erosion of the middle class, the educated folk have left.

Did I mention how we screwed up security when they brought in Jay Gardner, half heartedly and then replaced him abruptly with neo-fool Bremer?

I am no great geo-political thinker, but, gee, even as an American, I can see that democracy can not thrive when people fear for their lives in their homes, on the streets, in Mosques and schools. No one is safe.

Did you all see the young Iraqi woman physician and listen to her tale? We don't want accept refugees- that admits defeat. We can't protect the ones who help us there, as interpreters, or work in US offices, they are marked for dead and many have died. Colin Powell was correct- you break it- you own it. Lord, war is one stupid and ugly and messy thing despite the war fever, jingoism, Johnny Come Marching home doo -dah- doo-dah mentality of the young that signed up when we took them in, they are coming home broken ...or dead. Learning quickly what ever generation has learned before, that war, mankind slaughtering mankind is the kid of evil genie you never want to let out of the fu*king bottle. I would have thought the Grimm reapers blood bath festival int eh battle fields and trenches of world war I would have taught our imbecile species some lesson beyond 20 years.

We are as dextrous as racoons, smart as chimps and evil a sha' tan himself.

If we want to stay and fix that matter we need to have a draft and send in probably 500,000 troops to occupy for a 15 year period. Not in keeping with the former Rummy's ideas of a lean strike force military that was never meant to be a governing force. No, we don't do colonialization well.

So staying in the current fashion, and adding a teeny weeny surge, is really worth staying for the big picture?

Which takes me back to the whole NWO idea, and these egg heads who dream up these bull sh*t political ideas, they seem to disregard people. Individuals do not count. While they talk big, and dream big, they forget that the freaking trains have to run on time, and people need hospitals and schools and oh, yes, did I mention security?


Staying is not stopping the violence. As many lives will be lost over 15 years, as if we stay for 2 more. The difference is they won't be American lives, the Iraqi's will kill and they won't stop till their blood lust is sated. They and only they can stop it. Our presence can inflame or suppress it but never stop it before it's time.


NWO order big talk from blow hard good slick talkers like Frum, and Hissinger, and CrackedKristol but their pnas never ever talk about the betterment of life, the quality of familiy life, and schools and safety egmaniacla bullsh*t about PNAC and NWO and The New American Century, with them at the top, just like the commies they are, the workers work and die and the aniamls that are created more equal like the pigs that they are, shall rule ala' 1984 style.

[JNelson6563]

14. Brevity is the soul of wit

We're so screwed. :hide:

[bluedawg12]

15. That's the point - the average person

is either cannon fodder, breeder, or consumer as far as they ae concerned.

I am always amused when someone making $15/hr defends big oil by asserting the RW claim that there is no global climate screw up.

Why are they (RW drones) shilling for guys that pulled down $200 million in bonuses last year?

[blm]

17. Because they are entertained into believing so by talking heads who are paid big$$$

to frame the debate by appealing to the average man's fears and prejudices.

You think BushInc and their cronies bought up all available broadcast media in the 80s and 90s to promote good journalism?

[bvar22]

18. Yes, It's REAL, and you're invited.

Your place in the New World Order is "low wage slave laborer".
:party:

[Mind_your_head]

20. I just recommended this ONLY b/c this thread is very thought provoking

very heavy deep stuff here. Certainly nothing to be taken "at it's face".

[CGowen]

21. Every Nazis dream, as depicted by Disney in 1942

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GKb5ZYu-A4

Nazi: Ist we not der super men?
Hirohito: Aryan pure super men?
Soldier: Ja, we ist der super men!
Röhm: Super-duper super men!
Nazi: Ist dis Nazi Land so good? Would you leave it if you could?
Singers: Ja, dis Nazi Land ist good!
Moussolini: We would leave if we could.
Röhm: We bring the world's new order.
<toots flute>
Hirohito: <waves small Japanese flag> Heil Hitler's New World Order.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0035794/


1943 Won Oscar Best Short Subject, Cartoons
Walt Disney