The Joneses..

[SoCalDem]

Mr. age 57
Mrs. age 52

Mr Jones made $42K a year until his company was sold in 2003. He had been with that company for 28 years, and thought he would retire from it.

Mrs Jones makes $22K a year, as an office manager for a local company.

They have a couple of twenty-somethings and a 17 year old.

They have a house, and 3 cars

He used to commute 20 minutes, and her commute was local. the 17 year old drives Mom's old car..Mom drives Dad's old car..Dad's car was bought used, and they still owe a year's worth of payments on it.

Their house was bought in 1983, for $150K. In 1999, they took out an equity loan of $13K to re-roof it and replace the carpeting , aging furnace & A/C.

They refinanced in the 90's to help the older kids go to college.

When Dad lost his job in 2003, they also lost the "decent" health insurance, and had to opt for the not-so-great insurance that Mom's job offered. The deductions from her check bit hard into her take-home, which for a while was all the family had.

Dad did manage to get a job in 2004, BUT it paid $34K a year and offered no health benefits.

As the family income dropped, the expenses they had went up. Aging cars need repair, aging people get chronic illnesses, utilities go up.

Credit card balances crept up, and terms got changed without notice. As family income dropped, expenses did not.

The twenty-somethings graduated with loads of debt, since Mom & Dad could not totally pay for their college. Their jobs right out of college barely covered transportation and loan repayment, so they were in and out of the "family home" for nearly a decade, as they struggled to "get on their feet".

Their house is now "worth" a lots less than they still owe on it, they have no savings because college expenses & a year of Mr Jones being out of work depleted what they had left. The 401-k from Mr's "roll-over" to his new company has lost over half of what it was...They are in deeper debt to credit cards because the doubling of the minimum balance & increased interest has made it difficult. As their payment-due went up, their "available" household money went down, which meant even MORE "need" to use the cards.

They could sell the teenager's car, but it's worth less as a "sold" car, than it is for him to have transportation to school and his part-time job. They live in suburbia, where there's precious little public transportation, anyway.

They buy very little because they need whatever "credit" is left "on the cards", in case another emergency looms...like the rumors of Mrs' company closing up.

As they approach their 60's, they find themselves making not quite enough to live comfortably......with "grown" children who still need help, because of their own crushing debt-load.....with a teen who can only dream of college.... with aging parents who need help.....with no savings.....with a house that's worth less than what they owe (and probably could not sell at a lowered price right now). They are hanging on, but barely..

Multiply these people by millions, and it's not hard to see why people are not being the dutiful consumers they once were.

The lack of their spending, and that of millions like them, affects the bottom line of companies all over. The vanishing customers, means cutbacks for staffing and ordering merchandise. Less merchandise, means fewer truckers hauling things.. Less orders means less need for mega-warehouses storing the stuff that will be trucked all over the US. At every juncture, there are jobs to be lost...families to lose the income necessary to survive.

The Joneses are not going to be needing "loans", nor would they even qualify for them these days. Money dumped on banks, so they can "restart the loans & credit flow", will not help them. The Joneses and their fellow soulmates are not going to be buying much.

Excessive "loaning" is what brought us to the brink, and re-starting a whole new round of it will not cure the problem.

Millions of families are treading water..waiting to "see what happens next".

[terisan]

1. I would think an immediate opening of medicare for all would help them and business.

[annabanana]

3. I think it would make the biggest, fastest difference available to us

right now.

If the fear of medical expense driven penury could be removed, and companies no longer had to shoulder the rest of the healthcare burden, not only would a good chunk of the financial stress be removed, but the psychological relief might put people in a much less risk averse mood.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Absolutely right.

One of the frames that bugs me the most is "we can't afford universal health care right now".

On the contrary, we can't afford to not have it right now.

[annabanana]

2. The is the true and actual story of what has become of the much

vaunted American Middle Class, the very engine of the Country's prosperity and security since WWII.

And yet the professional economists and the radical free market think tanks somehow expect the "skin of their teeth, by their fingernails" Jones' to buy things that they may want, but just cannot afford.

[Warpy]

4. That's a pretty good snapshot of what was going on last year

This year, Mom got laid off when her office was outsourced to India. Dad is still plugging away for his $34,000/year with no benefits, but business is off and he's not sure how long that "good" job will last. Mom has discovered that even fast food places aren't hiring any more. They've found themselves using credit cards for everyday expenses and forget about routine health and dental care. They've become like their old cars, just fix it when something breaks for good.

They're still quietly desperate, awake at 3 AM a lot of the time, staring at the ceiling in the dark and trying not to whimper. The oldest kid has been looking for part time jobs, but nobody wants to hire teenagers any more.

If they start talking to the rest of their neighbors and realize that everybody has about the same story of low wages, offshoring, high debt just making do, and hopelessness, they might start to get angry.

Let's hope that happens soon.

The Joneses and everybody like them don't need handouts and they don't need more loans. What they need are jobs that pay living wages and the only way they'll get them is through government support until our economy with its manufacturing infrastructure is rebuilt. They need stable health insurance that can't be taken away because some manager screws up and the company has to lay them off. They need to know that as working citizens, they have a value to this country.

Our government is reactive. They won't address the misery out there until they're afraid of the miserable.

Once all the Joneses out there get angry enough, perhaps that will happen.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. "They won't address the misery out there until they're afraid of the miserable."

The challenge is that they're completely tone deaf. They won't recognize a pissed-off proletariat until the literal fire trucks are dispatched.

[SheilaT]

5. All too possible.

What makes me shiver is the part where they refinanced the house to send kids to college, and the kids also took on debt. I just wish more people would go the public college/university route, if necessary take longer to complete while working so as to get out with minimal or maybe even no student loans.

Anyway, in this semi-hypothetical scenario, no one did any foolish buying, and they are still doing so badly.

[SoCalDem]

6. It took my daughter-in-law almost ten years to graduate college without debt

and she did not go to a chi-chi private college.. Doing it paygo, is sooo hardbecause in order to stay on parental insurance plans they have to take a minimum, and with labs not counting in that minimum, but stil being necessary to attend, it leaves little time or energy for jobs..

She's glad she did it that way..BUT..she graduated last December..right into this employment mess, and although she's sent resumes and gone to interviews, she has YET to find a "real job"...

My son makes a decent salary, but she's faced with this dilemma...keep trying to find a job in the business world, or try to start a family..she's 29.. They will probably only have one child, and she's gort mixed emotions about having a baby and then sending it to daycare, but she cannot afford to wait forever, or fertility issues may present themselves..and that degree she worked a decade for, may just have to go on the shelf for a few more years...

That was one reason they waited 8 years to get married, so she could live at home and afford college..and be done with it before they married..

[eilen]

7. The kids probably did go to a state school

NY's have had significant tuition and fee increases over time. It is not cheap. The federal student loan limits have not kept pace with the tuition. Student housing and books are very expensive. Many families take a big withdrawal on a HELOC for tuition and other incidental expenses that add up when sending a kid to college. If you live close to a state school you can commute but some colleges require residency for the freshman year. The best bet is community college for the first 2 years. But then people/employers don't seem to have the same respect for community college + state school as they do say, NYU or Columbia or Fordham.


Undergraduate Costs



SUNY Oswego provides a quality, learner-centered education at an affordable cost. In addition, many financial aid packages are available to help cover expenses.

Annual expenses for students entering fall 2008*
(Semester charges are half the annual cost)

Undergraduate tuition (New York State residents) $4,350**
Room (double) & Board (comprehensive plan).... $10,170***
Additional Residential Charges (ResNet, laundry) $218
Fixed Fees..................................................... $1,131
Total Fixed Cost ............................................. $15,869

*Expenses reflect 2008-2009 charges as of July, 2008. All rates are subject to change.
**$10,610 annual tuition charge for non-New York State Residents.
*** Students entering prior to 2008-2009 will have lower room and board rates as a result of the Oswego Guarantee. Upperclass students have other meal plan options.

[SheilaT]

9. Even "inexpensive"

state schools can be shockingly expensive. And note that it's the room and board that's the big killer.

The essential cause here is that over the years states have put more and more of the burden of the cost of education directly on the students themselves.

Recently I tried to explain to my 21 year old son that back when I first started college, the cost of tuition, books, and fees at many state universities were low enough that a typical summer job that a young person could get in those days (mid-60's) could easily pay those costs. Room and board might be another matter. He literally did not believe me. Just look at those numbers again, and even assume the student lives at home, so it's only(only!) about $4500, not including books and any lab or studio fees.

And while I am constantly advocating students start out living at home and attending the local junior college rather than take on loans to go anywhere else to school, I do realize that not every single recent high school grad lives within easy commuting distance of a community college, so attending school somewhere, even a relatively low cost state school, and living in the dorm is the only option, which means the room and board cost is unavoidable.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

31. I went to CUNY in the 60's and the tuition was free

Had a Regents scholarship of a couple hundred a year which paid for books. One of the first protests I went to back in the day was in opposition to instituting tuition for CUNY. "Our position no tuition". I wonder what CUNY tuition runs these days.


Hopefully we can eventually get back to free or affordable public colleges some day.

[eilen]

48. One book now can cost a couple of hundred...

At CUNY, a full time NYS resident, tuition is $4,000
For a student living at home or with relatives the estimated budget is an additional $6,072
For a student living away from home, add an additional $15,743

Don't forget your technology fee of $100.00 (for full time students) and activity fees which may vary

CUNY tuition and fees

You and Colin Powell got really good deal.

[Subdivisions]

8. Times 10,000,000.

:(

[Phentex]

51. That's what I was thinking...

many people really weren't/aren't living above their means. But costs are going up while salaries are going down. They are lucky they didn't have some sort of illness or health issues or their problems would be compounded.

[marions ghost]

10. if you wrote this...

:applause:

[SoCalDem]

25. Thanks, I did write it.... a composite of many people I know

:)

[Belial]

11. This is by NO means a fix.. just a question

GA has the Hope Scholarship that will pay for college tuition. Do any other states offer this type of program? The sending the kids to school part was what got me thinking about this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Some do, some don't, but the fact remains that both the states and the feds

have reduced aid to higher education.

When I was a college student 40 years ago, annual tuition at the University of Minnesota was 300 times the minimum wage, making it easy for young people in the Twin Cities to live with their parents and earn all their tuition with a part-time job.

Now annual tuition is 1300 times the minimum wage, making it not so easy to work and carry a full courseload.

Furthermore, there used to be forgivable loans, like the NDSL program. If you worked as a teacher or entered the military and stayed for five years, 50% of your loan was forgiven. If you taught in a high-poverty area for five years, your entire loan was forgiven.

By the time I started teaching on the college level in the 1980s, the most generous aid programs were gone, and the only way a non-athletic student could get a free ride to college was by joining ROTC, where, from what I observed, they were indoctrinated into the nastiest forms of right-wing politics. Hmm, could there have been method to that madness?

[Blue Dog Dominion]

12. What kind of world do they live in where Dad gets the new car?!?!

I remember when I was a kid and asked my friend, "Our dads make the money, yet its always the Mom that gets the new car. Why is that?"

He sagely responded, "Because they have to deal with skid-marks in the underwear".

[Warpy]

23. In this case, Dad had the longer commute

and needed the more reliable car.

When I was growing up, Dad got the new car for commuting, Mom got the old car for grocery shopping, and the kid got the tuna wagon because they knew he was probably going to bang into stuff until he got the hang of driving.

[SoCalDem]

27. Commuting 5 or 6 days a week, is hard on cars

and when cars come with mileage-dictated warranties it makes sense to commute in the lower mileage car/newer car that's less likely to break down, and to "save" what's left of the warranty on the 2nd car for as long as possible...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. That's exactly right, SoCalDem

Yesterday, the NY Times had an editorial on the way people's 401k's have lost so much value, and one reader's comment in the online edition ranted against the right-wing assumption that everyone should save for everything. He did the math on the right-wing admonitions to save for college, save for retirement, save enough to have six month's income on hand, and save enough to buy a family health insurance policy with a Health Savings Account.

His figures showed that in order to accomplish all that, a family of four would need a household income of at least $150,000. That is the top 10% of American households, so 90% of us are screwed under the assumptions pushed by the Republicanites all these years.

[Tsiyu]

15. To the greatest witcha

My take is in my journal today. Kind of too disgusted to think about it anymore. Going job searching HA!

Spent yesterday with a Vet and his family, listening to him on the phone trying to get help and only getting the runaround from the VA.

Some days you just want to scream at the inhumanity that is America.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. Couple Critiques On Your Hypothetical:

Why didn't they go to a cost-effective community college rather than racking up so much debt?

Why didn't they downsize their home to something more affordable while their house still had sufficient equity?

Why can't the Mom and Dad drive each other to work and only have one car?

Why/How did the rack up so much credit card debt?

[marions ghost]

20. One size doesn't always fit all

you're introducing a lot of variables, assuming the couple have infinite choices. They may have had limiting factors re. all the suggestions you list. :shrug:

But maybe you should become a financial advisor...:)

[Kalyke]

21. How do you downsize a home when no one will buy it?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Plenty Of People Were Buying Homes From 2003-2006.

Your return argument has no merit.

[Leftist Agitator]

24. How much more obtuse could you possibly be?

"Why didn't they go to a cost-effective community college rather than racking up so much debt?"

Well, smart guy, let me show you how much full-time tuition costs at the local community college in Northern WV, West Virginia Northern Community College:

In-State: 12 or more 984.00

Out-of-State: 12 or more 3,240.00

That's PER SEMESTER, not per academic year, just to clarify.

http://www.wvncc.edu/Tuition/ScheduleOfTuition.htm

Now then, you have to consider that this community college (as well as the vast majority of others) doesn't offer any degree beyond an Associate's or the equivalent in a given field.

That of course means that in order to get a Bachelor's degree, you'd have to go somewhere else for at least two years, possibly three depending on how many credits transfer from the community college.

Let's say two more years at the closest "real" college. I put "real" in quotes, because this particular college is barely more prestigious than WV Northern. In fact, until this very semester, they didn't offer any degree beyond a Bachelor's, but now they're offering a very limited program for a Masters of Education. I am very familiar with this college, because I graduated from there a few years ago, but I digress...

http://www.westliberty.edu/students/admissions/?id=692

Here's the tuition again, PER SEMESTER, at West Liberty:

Tuition and Fees for West Virginia residents $2,232.00
(full time: 12 or more semester hours)

Tuition and Fees for out-of-state residents $5,448.00
(full time: 12 or more semester hours)



So, in order to follow your suggestion, a student from WV (one of the poorest states in the nation) would have to spend in four years, JUST ON TUITION, the following sum:

$12,864.00

Of course, this figure doesn't include eight semesters worth of books, that average, let's say, $400, for a total spent on books of $3,200.00 over four years.

Nor does that include living expenses. If a student is living at home, then he or she will need to have a vehicle, along with fuel, and insurance. In many instances, a vehicle must be purchsed, let's modestly estimate $100 a month car payment, and roughly two gallons of gasoline a day, costing at present about $2.00, for a total of another $100 a month, and another $100 a month that has to be spent to insure a young driver. Over the four years of college, these expense have to be accounted for eight months out of each year, 32 months total, for a total of $9600.00.

Of course if the student DOESN'T live at home, because say, Mom and Dad took your sage advice and downsized the house and got rid of the kid's bedroom and the basement that they didn't "really" need, then the student will have to either live on their own in an apartment, or live in the dorms. WV Northern doesn't have dorms, obviously, so let's say that the student went to West Liberty for all four years, and lived in the dorms. Room and board at West Liberty costs $3,141.00 PER SEMESTER. Living in an apartment is equally costly in that town, trust me.

So, if a student (from WV) goes to WV Northern for two years, then West Liberty for two years, lives at home with Ma & Pa, and commutes, their cost over their educational career is: $25,664.00

If they go to West Liberty (and again, are from WV) for all four years and live in the dorms (which is by no means a luxurious existence), then the cost of your education is: $42,984.00

This is what it costs to get the most humble of Bachelor's degrees, from a no-name college in a piss-poor state. Oh, and good luck finding a decent job when you're competing with graduates from more prestigious institutions. Even the graduates of the big state univeristies have much better prospects for employment, because employers have at least HEARD of the schools that they attended.

And if you're going to come back with that trope about "finding a job, and working your way through like a smart person would", let me tell you something. Where I come from there ARE NO DECENT-PAYING JOBS. None. Retail and service sector, that's IT.

Fifty year old men and women are competing with their children for positions in fast food and gas stations. The local casino pays their employees $9.00 / hour. That's the best job that you're going to find without a college education. Hell, even the tele-marketing concern only pays $8.00 / hour. Everything else pays minimum wage, or so close to it as to not matter.

Oh, and none of those employers will ever schedule you anywhere close to full time, especially if you're a college student who doesn't really "need" the hours in the same way that a parent or older worker with "responsibilities" does.

Try paying $10,000 a year to go to school working 30 hours a week for $7.00 per hour, for a grand total of $10,080 per year. Oh, and then try to not have your grades suffer from the strain of working five six-hour days a week and going to school five six-hour days a week, and trying to fit homework in there somwhere. Oh, and if they cut your hours for whatever reason, well, you're fucked. And if some unexpected necessary expense comes up, well I guess you're fucked then, too.

I don't know where you got this idea that people could avoid crippling amounts of debt just by going to a community college instead of a state school or other institution, but frankly, it's utter nonsense.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. Settle Down There Francis.

1000 bucks a semester does not equal 'loads of debt', as per the OP.

If they were in no position to afford it, then maybe moving on after community college isn't the brightest idea. I mean, there's some honor in it of course, but you shouldn't seek sympathy for your debt. Many people can't go to college. Know why? They can't afford to. If they're risking that large a debt that's going to put them that deep in a hole, then they either need to deal with the consequence of it and not expect sympathy or not move on to the more expensive college to begin with. And who cares about the out of state quote. If you already are having financial trouble, might be a pretty stupid idea to go to an out of state community college.

Furthermore, based on the house value given by the OP, the home was more than large enough to downsize from while still accommodating the family members. And hell, there are people living in cars and on benches right now. I don't think sharing a room with your brother is the end of the world.

[Leftist Agitator]

28. Well, let's see...

"1000 bucks a semester" is for an utterly worthless Associates degree. Without taking into account books. Or transporation.

But you conveniently decided to ignore the salient points of my argument, primarily that to go to college ANYWHERE, it's really, really fucking expensive, and instead disingenuously state the demonstrably incorrect figure of "1000 bucks a semester".

"Many people can't go to college. Know why? They can't afford to."

Oh, so what's your answer then, O Wise One? Toil away for ~$10-12k / year for the rest of your life?

Living in abject poverty just because you (and 75% of the rest of the population) "can't afford" to go to college?

How far does that pittance go if you have children?

I could give a flying fuck about the situation in the OP, actual or hypothetical.

You either have to take on a crippling load of debt to go to college, or live in destitution for your entire life.

"then they either need to deal with the consequence of it"

No shit, Sherlock, but it's rather hard to pay back student loans when THERE ARE NO FUCKING JOBS!

So, do tell, are you seriously advocating that any student whose family isn't well-off should avoid attending a four-year college, and consequently be limited to only the most menial, poorest-paying jobs?

Is that REALLY what you're arguing here?

:shrug:

Oh, one more thing. You said, "I don't think sharing a room with your brother is the end of the world."

Yeah, because everyone has a house with a spare room. Let me tell you about the situation that I found myself in when I first attended college. My parents lived in a three bedroom house. My sister and I shared a room until the day I moved out, and my brother had the other one.

Soon after I moved out, my parents got divorced, and the bank ended up with the house. My father remarried right away, and moved in with his new wife and step-daughter in a two bedroom half-duplex. My mother moved into a one bedroom apartment, with my sister sleeping on the couch in the living room, with all of her belongings that would fit in the one walk-in closet. My brother joined the Army, and shipped off to Basic training within two months of their divorce. Prior to that, he had been bouncing from friend's house to friend's house, sleeping on floors and couches.


Now then, you tell me, where the fuck was *I* supposed to go? Share a couch with my sister? Become a transient like my brother, essentially forced to volunteer for Bush's war machine? No, I really only had one option: Move the fuck out on my own.

Which meant either A: Going to college or B: Working as close to full-time as possible

I chose option A, and yes, I did work for all five years that I was in school. I still have the fryer grease scars on my arms to prove it. I made $5.15 an hour starting, and after 4 years I was up to a whopping $6.00. If it weren't for student loans, I'd probably still be working in some shit fast-food job killing myself for a pittance.

It is not possible to go to college ANYWHERE without taking on massive amounts of student loan debt. The sooner you realize that, the sooner I can stop trying to open your eyes to the real world.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. Fun Fun Fun.

""1000 bucks a semester" is for an utterly worthless Associates degree. Without taking into account books. Or transporation."

Associates degrees aren't worthless. Not as good as other degrees, but still not worthless. Furthermore if that's all you can afford, it's all you can afford.


"But you conveniently decided to ignore the salient points of my argument, primarily that to go to college ANYWHERE, it's really, really fucking expensive, and instead disingenuously state the demonstrably incorrect figure of "1000 bucks a semester"."

1000 bucks a semester when talking about the mountains of debt the children have due to loans (per the OP) is perfectly fine to reference. It seems clear that the OP was alluding to a non-community college.


"Oh, so what's your answer then, O Wise One? Toil away for ~$10-12k / year for the rest of your life?"

LOL. Holy melodrama. You're claiming that one can't make more than $10-12k a year without having higher than an associates degree? Too funny! :rofl:


"Living in abject poverty just because you (and 75% of the rest of the population) "can't afford" to go to college?
How far does that pittance go if you have children?"

What in the world are you talking about?


"I could give a flying fuck about the situation in the OP, actual or hypothetical."

Maybe you're in the wrong thread then. See, cause in this one we're kinda discussing the OP. :dunce:


"You either have to take on a crippling load of debt to go to college, or live in destitution for your entire life."

Yay!!! I love black and white completely meritless blanket statements! :party:


"then they either need to deal with the consequence of it"
"No shit, Sherlock, but it's rather hard to pay back student loans when THERE ARE NO FUCKING JOBS!"

Again; maybe it would've been a wiser choice to go to a community college. :think:


"So, do tell, are you seriously advocating that any student whose family isn't well-off should avoid attending a four-year college, and consequently be limited to only the most menial, poorest-paying jobs?"

What I'm advocating is living inside one's means, regardless of how much that sometimes sucks. If one chooses to take the risk in hope of the eventual reward (better job etc) then they also need to take responsibility for the outcome. Furthermore, the assertion that in the absence of a 4 year degree one is limited to only the most menial, poorest paying jobs is tragically flawed.

[prayin4rain]

34. I think you missed the point

Yes many Americans live beyond their means. Yes many Americans want to live an upper middle class lifestyle instead of a middle class one. But the OP was trying to describe a typical middle class family. I guess everyone has different ideas about what middle class is... Bush's idea of middle class seems to be similar to yours which is basically a let them eat cake and help them see that the cake can be sufficient if they will just change their thinking a little bit.

[SoCalDem]

35. They are not living beyond their means.. their means just started slipping away

and when costs rise in double digits, and payraises (if people even get them these days) are usually in single digit increments..and often it's a "Pay -up $10 a week, insurance responsibility- up $15"...or "take a day off without pay, or your job's history"...

[prayin4rain]

36. Who's not? n/t

[SoCalDem]

37. Luckily, my husband:)

He has the greatest boss ever..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. That's Where We Disagree.

I don't consider the OP to be representative of a 'typical' middle class family whatsoever. I think it's merely a made up hypothetical intended to drive home a point, while having very little bearing on the majority of the reality. It's great for DU applause, but not much useful for any real discussion.

[Waiting For Everyman]

40. Why didn't their ESP predict the future?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. College: It is either an economic investment or a lifestyle purchase.

The resume scanning software which searches for the phrase "Bachelor's degree" doesn't care which college you went to. It is only a checkbox for risk-averse HR managers. It is economically rational to get that box checked as cheaply as possible. Unfortunately, colleges pad their programs with courses that do not make any difference to the students ability to do the job. They are required solely for the purpose of making the education arbitrarily expensive and mollifying a professor's view that their area of domain expertise is absolutely necessary for every students' education.

If college is a lifestyle purchase for the purchase of "enrichment", fuck it... it's unaffordable.

My solution: federally-designed bachelors programs, delivered by community colleges containing only the courses relevant to the major. A computer engineering student does not need Phys Ed classes to perform his job. He needs enough english classes to adequately understand technical literature. If he wants 18th century literature to be prepared in case he finds himself on the game show "jeopardy", that's fine - but the rest of his degree should not be held hostage to that arbitrary requirement.

I can't summon any outrage at the proliferation of diploma mills. They simply take all the artifice out of the transaction. The purchaser wants a piece of paper so they can get an opportunity to demonstrate their ability to do a job.

College serves the HR managers and the colleges themselves. Maybe they should pay for it.

[KillCapitalism]

41. That sounds good and all, but...

I'd like to see apprenticeships for most occupations, similar to what union trades like carpentry, and electricians have.

Those programs are great because you earn while you learn. I'd love to get on with the carpenter's union as an apprentice, but there aren't any jobs available.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. I fully agree with this.

The alternative is that the employee is solely responsible to pay for the education to learn the specialized skills that the employer needs. No place is this worse than tech. Spend 4 years getting educated and when you graduate the knowledge is already out of date.

It's time for Microsoft to train their employees. The fact that the Indian government does that for them has distorted our job market and devalued labor.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

32. Great snapshot and excellent analysis n/t

[Waiting For Everyman]

39. A usury limit of 5% on interest would help everybody a LOT.

Debt-cost has not deflated like everything else. It has to. It is more than people have. Period. It simply won't work. Our "rules" are defining people into poverty for no reason.

If the banks won't lend at that rate, an FDR-type program needs to be started instead, and eventually the gouging lenders would die out - as they should. In the meantime, vulturizing our citizens would end! It would be like giving everyone a huge pay raise. There's no reason this much of our income should be going to banks.

We have a two-tiered credit system here, but we refuse to acknowledge that fact. People who are struggling need protection from our banking practices... a "safe zone" away from the predators.

[taught_me_patience]

42. You are suggesting that banks lend at 5%

is that secured or unsecured debt? This is totally unrealistic. Banks can lend to GE, AAA rated company yielding 6-7%, but should lend to joe six pack at 5%? Crazy?!?!?!?!

[Waiting For Everyman]

44. If that was the legal limit to anybody, I guess they'd have to do it

or go into a different kind of business. Don't think it's impossible, there were always usury limits until 1974. From FDR until then, the economy worked.

Maybe it would be intelligent to look at what we used to do RIGHT. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

[marions ghost]

49. "people who are struggling need protection...a safe zone"

--absolutely. Homeowners need protection from mortgage predators & predatory developers and builders, sick people need protection from predatory practices in medicine, drugs, insurance, and we all need protection from injurious banking practices. Exploitation is rampant in this society.

It is basically all about knocking back the avenues for predators who feast on us all.

We have to demand these protections. It won't just be handed to us.

[varelse]

45. Millions of families are treading water..waiting to "see what happens next".

Yep- you've just described just about everyone I know.

[bertman]

47. Excellent analysis, SoCalDem. Thank you. Too late to rec but here's the kick.

[lonestarnot]

50. Too late to recommend! But there you have it!

Excellent description!