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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:03 AM
Original message
How some evangelical leaders are reacting to Obama...rather mixed.
Right Wing Watch called my attention to the article at MSNBC about it.

Right Wing Watch:

How the Right Plans to React to Obama

MSNBC has a longish article on how Religious Right leaders are planning on dealing with soon-to-be President Barack Obama. The article contains a claim from Richard Land that Barack Obama chose Rick Warren explicitly to appeal to evangelicals and that his religious affairs director even called Land personally to make that point clear:

Land says he received a call from Obama's religious affairs director, Joshua DuBois, after Warren had been chosen. "Dubois told me that this was very intentionally done and that he, the president-elect, was the originator of the idea. He wanted to send the signal that you can disagree with him on some issues but still have a place with him at the table and work together on other issues of agreement.”


From what I know of Southern Baptist, Richard Land, I doubt he wants a place at the table. He wants to control the agenda.

Overall, the article reports, right-wing leaders are taking a "wait and see" attitude toward Obama, though they are fully prepared to swing into action the moment he tries to advance the progressive agenda, especially when it comes to reproductive choice.


There is more from MSNBC.

Obama gets mixed evangelical reaction

Joel Hunter

Those sentiments were shared by Florida mega-church pastor Joel Hunter, the author of "A New Kind of Conservative."

"I have been very encouraged with how President-elect Obama has taken the initiative to include evangelicals in the conversation. He's listened with an attentive ear." In fact, Hunter, a registered Republican, delivered the benediction at the Democratic National convention and joined fellow ministers to pray with Barack Obama on Election Day. Obama also scores high marks for how he handled the criticism from gay rights activists after the Warren announcement. "He didn't get too defensive. He said this is a picture of how we're going to operate. I don't think he betrayed the gay and lesbian deferences that he has. In all his speeches, he stands up for gay and lesbian rights," Hunter said.


I differ with Hunter. Having someone speak who has openly shown contempt for gay rights was a painful decision. He could have picked others, less openly divisive.

Pastor Tony Evans

Pastor Tony Evans from the Dallas Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship is well accustomed to the intersection of presidential politics and faith. He was one of the first spiritual leaders whom then-Gov. George W. Bush reached out to -- seeking prayer and counsel -- before he launched his first presidential bid....Yet Evans says it's important for the evangelical church in America to soberly take in the message of November 4. “It is a wake up call... It means we can't be totally committed to politics. I don't believe our answers will ultimately come in on Air Force One."


John Hagee

Yet even Hagee's own words hint at the prospect of a future showdown. "Our respect and prayers do not prevent us from continuing to speak out and speak out strongly when we disagree on Biblical issues with the president. Like all other Americans, we evangelicals must continue to be engaged in the democratic process even after Election Day." Hagee isn’t alone in foreshadowing that the new president will encounter some rough stretches when it comes to social conservatives and evangelicals in the days ahead.


Joe Watkins

Joe Watkins -- an ordained minister, MSNBC political analyst, and former White House aide to the first President Bush -- describes it this way: "The concern for evangelicals is that he either doesn't share their core beliefs in God's infallible word or he isn't willing to support Christian faith and values issues as president. While he doesn't appear to be openly hostile to evangelicals, effectively opposing the issues that they care about has the same effect."


Openly hostile, Joe? No, I don't think so at all. You appear to be very demanding.

Jay Sekulow

Jay Sekulow, a constitutional lawyer with the American Center for Law and Justice and ardent advocate of conservative and evangelical causes, puts it far more bluntly: "I wouldn't call it fear and loathing. I think it's a realization that things are going to be different and significantly different..... Jay Sekulow predicts that any forward movement on Obama’s part to sign the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) as he’s pledged to do will “cause a revolt in the evangelical community."


I doubt they are going to be very open on compromise on their "wedge issues." They don't seem aware they did not work so well this time...and they will keep trying. Enough judges are sympathetic, they will often get their way.

I have said that women's rights and the rights of gays would be the first to go in the name of expediency.

I hope I am wrong.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Mr. Watkins' statement sums up the fears of the religious right.
"While he doesn't appear to be openly hostile to evangelicals, effectively opposing the issues that they care about has the same effect."

They are aware that Obama opposes evangelical leaders on social issues. However, they are also aware that he has taken pains to present himself as an friend and not an enemy of evangelical Christianity, and as such it will be very difficult for evangelical leaders to whip their flocks into an anti-Obama froth that might be useful in political efforts. They fear that their hordes have been defanged by Obama's outreach efforts, and that Obama will end up passing many socially liberal reforms while the evangelical masses contentedly sit aside.

It will be interesting to see whether their fears or yours are more founded.
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TTUBatfan2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Most fundamentalists think he's a Muslim...
That is the truth, or at least that is the truth that I see every day in West Texas.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Many FL Southern Baptists think so also.
Some I considered educated and intelligent enough to know better are only listening to their church which teaches he is a muslim.

This is one of the largest churches in the Tampa area.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. There are a great many moderate evangelicals. They are both
the current source of the evangelical movement's electoral power, and their greatest source of growth. Obama has done a very good job of ingratiating himself to them. The "he's a muslim gonna destroy amurrica" folks are not the ones Obama is interested in, nor are they the ones evangelical leaders fret over losing politically. It is, rather, the suburban, megachurch-attending, news-watching, Purpose-Driven-Life-reading crowd that is in play.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why on earth would FOCA "cause a revolt in the evangelical community." ?
And no, I don't expect you to know.

It's just such a nutty statement, and reveals a very secular agenda.

K&R
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think that unequivocally codifying the right to an abortion in Federal statute
would probably piss off quite a few evangelicals.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. These people are aware that abortion is legal, no?
:shrug:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yes, they are. However,
that would constitute a major roadblock for them down the road, even if they change the Supreme Court math around. As it stands, they only need reverse a SCOTUS decision and pass some state laws in red states, and they've won. Getting that SCOTUS majority, in turn, only requires one particularly fortunate Republican President.

If Obama signs FOCA into law, it would require future pro-lifers to, even after overturning Roe v. Wade, additionally pass a new Federal law overturning FOCA. That would require at minimum 60 strongly pro-life Senators to defeat the certain Democratic filibuster. That is not very likely to occur any time soon.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's sad these people don't realize they're nothing but Ca$h Cow$
Their 'leaders' fleece them by convincing them they can bring about an American Theocracy.

The US will NEVER outlaw abortion, in spite of the niggling laws allowed to pass - to convince the fundies to open their checkbooks just one more time.

Pitiful really.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It is. The Republicans will be in a very bad way once the evangelicals
start to wonder why that carrot dangling from a stick in front of their noses hasn't gotten any closer to their mouths over the last few decades. In the '08 election, there was some evidence in the polling that evangelicals were beginning to shift towards voting more on economic issues than on abortion. The Republicans had better hope like hell that's a one-time reaction to the recession and not the beginning of a trend, because if they lose the pro-life crowd, they've got absolutely nothing left.
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rusty quoin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. They have been teaching, in their churches, that Obama is the anti-Christ.
It will take time to convince them he is not.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Some churches have so indoctrinated their members...
that it will take years to overcome the views like he is a muslim or the anti-Christ. It is very fundamentalist where I live, and way too many people here fell in love with Sarah Palin. They thought she was the answer to America's problem, and was sent by God.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. Adult politics emphasizes forges consensus for principled compromise, when possible
Some of these people, who have been invited to sit and talk at the adults' table but now refuse the invitation, will later throw tantrums: the adults will, I think, be able to copewith it
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. One group coined a new word....Obamunism.
And they say he is going to inflict that on them. Good grief, these folks worry me.

From Right Wing Watch today... a bunch of really strange comments from the religious right.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/right-wing-leftovers-3

"Oklahoma State Rep. Sally Kern has introduced a resolution calling on Congress to oppose the Freedom of Choice Act, saying it would be "an infringement on states’ rights. Abortion is not a right guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution but states’ rights are guaranteed by the Tenth Amendment."

The Traditional Values Coalition warns that President Obama and his "czars" are poised to "impose Obamunism upon our nation" and specifically singles out Tom Daschle as "most likely push the abortion and homosexual agenda ... The abortionists and homosexuals who helped get Obama elected must be thrilled with all of these czars with power to impose abortion and homosexuality on our military and federal bureaucracies.” Elsewhere, they call us a "God-hating ... anti-Christian group that is still engaged in a relentless war against traditional values."

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. ACLJ is part of Pat Robertson's empire...his answer to the ACLU
Sekulow, mentioned in the OP, is one of the heads of it.

It is a powerful group. I believe both Robertson and Falwell law colleges, so-called, to concentrate on their right wing extremist agenda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Center_for_Law_and_Justice

"The American Center for Law & Justice was founded in 1990 by evangelical Pat Robertson as a nonprofit public interest law firm. It was conceived as a counterweight to the American Civil Liberties Union, an organization which Robertson maintains is "hostile to traditional American values," though the two groups have worked together on some cases"

In his position as current Chief Counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, Jay Alan Sekulow, a Messianic Jew, has argued numerous cases before the U.S. Supreme Court. The following are some of the cases Sekulow and the Center have argued before the Supreme Court"

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enuegii Donating Member (624 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. I'm sure the leader's mentioned in the OP know that abortion is legal...
as a poster wondered about up thread, but don't be too sure about the followers. It have heard people go on and on about the need to fight to ban abortion, and then, in the next breath, insist that abortion is already illegal. The absurdity of promoting candidates on the basis of their commitment to ban something they think is illegal already doesn't seem to faze them. These are the same kind of folks that believe Obama is a muslim because he was somehow born one (and that it matters), and that Carter and Clinton are responsible for the current financial mess. Oh, and that Bush is a great man.
I know Obama wants to be "inclusive," but these people will oppose him bitterly and they are definitely not easily swayed from their beliefs. I personally feel that the effort involved in reaching out to these people will return very little benefit, if any, but, hey, I've been wrong before. There's not much to do now but wait and see what happens next.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. Fascists always will oppose freedom.
Why is this surprising?
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. Most of the ones teaching the muslim crap are flat out racists
and will never change their stripes. They should take a look at the crowds out there today and realize their planned revolt means nothing. They will keep their racist little group together while the rest of us move on.
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. "I hope I am wrong." -- I think you very well might be.
The way I parse Obama's position, as given at
http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/civil_rights/
the LGBT community has much to look forward to. This is certainly a solid basis for debate, not a "sellout".
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. Dobson...
I got this POS e-mail from a cousin the other day (distant cousin whom I contacted for my book, and who only e-mailed me to send me forwards)

"Hey everyone! Please be in prayer for our country as Barack (Hussein) Obama is inaugurated tomorrow. After the election I realized that America is a very non-Christian country. A man has been elected that has pledged to reinstate partial birth abortion. Since abortion has been legalized, there have been 45 million babies killed. What a tragedy. This country is in for a shock as we are led by a president who supports murder such as this. I would much rather be in financial trouble than to have someone who supports this awful crime against innocent unborn babies. Pray that God will forgive this country and move His mighty hand and bring Obama to his knees and change his thinking. Pray that God will melt Obama's heart of stone and turn him from his wicked ways. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - God appeared to Solomon and said, "if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."
The old saying goes: "God bless America." Now it says: "God forgive America." This country needs healing.
Visit focusonthefamily.com and go to broadcasts/podcasts and watch a video by Kathy Sparks who once worked in an abortion clinic before she was born again.
Pass this on to all those who will powerfully pray."

I had asked him the day before to please not send me religious e-mails. So as a slap in the face, he sent me this one the next day. I sent him a reply list night that probably scorched his hard drive.
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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
21. I am sick and tired of this group of hatemongers
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 08:11 AM by prostock69
First of all, this country is NOT a Center Right Country. It is a Center Left Country. What the evangelicals are now seeing is a shift from a Christian ideology/dogma controlled administration to a Christian thinking/rational/science based administration. They are going to have to realize that they are no longer pulling the strings in the background. Not only that they are going to have to deal with the number one growing sect of people in this country: the "non-believers" a/k/a the secular community. The more the Christian Right makes a stink about Obama, the bigger the push back against THEM will occur. People in general are tired of their bigotry and small mindedness. People have lost our tolerance of their hate-filled views and if they don't stop trying to legislate their religious beliefs into law, they will not only be asked to leave the table, but they will be thrown out the front door. I don't think Obama will tolerate their meddling for too long. I think he is making an attempt right now to work with them. But when they start reaching too far across the table, he'll smack their hand away. He doesn't need their vote to get reelected.

I am an atheist. I do not like religions. This does not mean I do not like Christians. I used to be one. We all need to learn to get along and live together. If you are an evangelical and think that being gay is a sin and having an abortion is murder, then don't be gay and don't have an abortion. Those are your choices to make FREELY because it's your life. Quit trying to force EVERYONE ELSE to live by your moral code. I'm so freaking fed up and tired of this group. This is why I contribute to The Freedom of Religion Foundation and The Secular Coalition of America. And I'm not the only one. People were so pissed off at the attempts to censor the billboards that were put up over Christmas by the FFRF that they received donations from 26 new lifetime members in December at $1,000 a pop; in this economy! They received and outpouring of support through money and letters in response to the Religious Right. People are tired of them. They are tired of their bullshit and their hypocrisy. And Proposition 8 was the last straw.

My responses to the above quotes:

"Yet even Hagee's own words hint at the prospect of a future showdown. "Our respect and prayers do not prevent us from continuing to speak out and speak out strongly when we disagree on Biblical issues with the president. Like all other Americans, we evangelicals must continue to be engaged in the democratic process even after Election Day." Hagee isn’t alone in foreshadowing that the new president will encounter some rough stretches when it comes to social conservatives and evangelicals in the days ahead." Obama may encounter some crying from the Christian right, but he will have the support of the secular community and the Liberal/Moderate Christians who voted for him which OVERWHELMINGLY outnumber Evangelicals in this country.


"Jay Sekulow, a constitutional lawyer with the American Center for Law and Justice and ardent advocate of conservative and evangelical causes, puts it far more bluntly: "I wouldn't call it fear and loathing. I think it's a realization that things are going to be different and significantly different..... Jay Sekulow predicts that any forward movement on Obama’s part to sign the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) as he’s pledged to do will “cause a revolt in the evangelical community." Yes, things are going to be different so better start preparing for the Rapture. It's about to come. Except it's not the kind of Rapture you are thinking of. Revolt? Oooooh, we are soooo scared! Bring on your pitchforks. We are ready.

"Pastor Tony Evans from the Dallas Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship is well accustomed to the intersection of presidential politics and faith. He was one of the first spiritual leaders whom then-Gov. George W. Bush reached out to -- seeking prayer and counsel -- before he launched his first presidential bid....Yet Evans says it's important for the evangelical church in America to soberly take in the message of November 4. “It is a wake up call... It means we can't be totally committed to politics. I don't believe our answers will ultimately come in on Air Force One." No shit that it's a wake up call. What it means is you can no longer manipulate the President into getting what you want. He's an actual adult who is not going to give in to every temper tantrum you decide to throw. He's the President for ALL OF US, like he's supposed to be. Gays, Straights, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Nonbelievers. We all live in this country. Open up your freaking eyes and see this country was not born out of Christianity nor was it meant to be a fascist theocracy.

The Christian right is feeling it. There is a change coming. It's them who is going to be forced to change or they will be shut out. And when Obama makes our government transparent for everyone to see just how much of their religious legislation that tries to get passed, a lot more people are going to join in the fight.




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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
22. The Future of Evangelicals as seen by Atheist (Ex-Baptist Minister)
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 08:11 AM by prostock69
An interesting article written by Dr. Robert M. Price, a world renown biblical scholar and atheist (ex-baptist minister) regarding Evangelicals:

"Changing Morals and the Fate of Evangelicalism" by Dr. Robert M. Price (Look him up on Amazon.com. He has written NUMEROUS books. One of his best is "A Reason Driven Life", which is a rebuttal of Rev. Rick Warren's "A Purpose Driven Life".

"It used to be the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists would never darken the door of movie theatres, even if Corrie ten Boom's The Hiding Place was showing (I kid you not!). Now that's moot, especially in the wake of home theatre technology. They wouldn't dance, because it was supposedly arousing, essentially mating behavior-which it obviously is! But now they've skipped the preliminaries (keep reading).

More significantly, they were very much against divorce and had a low incidence of it. But that, too, has changed. Evangelical churchmen and seminary professors found they just could not thunder against divorce any more once their own grown children were getting divorced. Same with women working outside the home. Economic realities dictated theology just as sure as the Feds' threats to the Mormon Church miraculously prompted new LDS revelations to abandon, first, polygamy, then racial discrimination in the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Homosexuality is next on the list. More and more educated Evangelicals seem to feel they must find a compromise between the inherited party line and their liberal social conscience. This is especially true with seminarians and young ministers. And such theological accommodations are not hard to find. It doesn't take as much text-twisting as slave-abolition or feminism, that's for sure. And it was secular feminism challenging the church that led, more than anything else, to the great inerrancy crisis among Evangelicals in the 1970s. Prayer changes things? Things change prayer.

Recent surveys indicate that more and more Evangelicals are questioning or rejecting the doctrine of an eternal hell as well as the idea that non-Christians will not be saved in the afterlife. You can see where this is headed: they are making their way toward being one more tolerant, live-and-let-live mainstream denomination. Nor am I complaining. I doubt many of us are really that vexed by the particular beliefs any fundamentalist happens to hold. No, what we find obnoxious is the pugnacious and obnoxious attitudes that so often accompany their beliefs. But what if they drop that attitude? Why would they?

It was for the sake of feeling uniquely indwelt and transformed by the Holy Ghost that they have erected attitudinal walls against non-co-religionists. It was a mind game to protect their cherished in-group and their firmly-cemented membership in it. But the more you become like the mainstream, the less separates you from everybody else, well, the more difficult it becomes to feel special, uniquely connected to God and sanctified by Jesus. It's not like they ever wanted to relegate everybody else to the Lake of Fire. It just seemed necessary in order for them to rejoice in not being relegated there themselves. And now feeling so different is no longer the priority. Attitudes affect doctrines which affect attitudes.

But the thing that will sooner or later bring the Evangelical Wailing Wall down is sex. More and more, Middle School, High School, and College Evangelicals admit to having sex in the same casual way as their "unsaved" contemporaries. That is, pre-marital, recreational sex. Having been so long Apollonian, they are itching to yield to Dionysus. But the gospel teaching of Jesus happens to be far more Apollonian than Dionysian. (Give 'em time, though, to discover the Q Source Jesus of Leif Vaage, Jesus as a "first-century party animal," and they'll be boasting of their biblical fidelity again.)

From the standpoint of sect-maintenance, this shift is fatal for two reasons. First, and most obviously, if this fundamental plank of the Evangelical platform rots and snaps, you can find little of similar magnitude to point to as the signal difference between the saved and the unsaved. I admit, there are a few more that would be similarly fatal, such as a casual permissiveness re drugs and alcohol.

Again, I admit that there are matters of graver moral content. A Christian ought to be able to say, e.g., "Jesus saved me from lying, from being insensitive, from being self-centered, cowardly, evasive, materialistic," etc., and those things might be more important. I'd say they are. But you see, everybody accepts and admires those values. They don't give Evangelicals special bragging rights like the sexual and other behavioral codes used to do.

Second, relaxing the sexual code is symbolically significant. Any group's mores concerning food and sex are symbolic of their social boundaries and the shape of their self-identity. A group does not necessarily have both indices. One will do, though usually there are both. Old Testament Israelites were separated from rival cults/cultures by upholding inflexible restrictions on permissible food and on possible intermarriage partners. Sexual fidelity had a lot to do with guaranteeing that one's true heirs inherited one's land and name. Jewish Christians were alarmed at Paul being willing to abolish Jewish dietary and other ceremonial scruples to make it easier for Gentiles to join Christianity. They could see instantly that such a move would result in Jews being squeezed to the margins of the new religion-and it did. Jewish identity within Christianity was lost. Similarly, among American Jews today it is not bigotry when Orthodox rabbis discourage mixed marriages with non-Jews. Allow that, and you can say the big goodbye to Judaism in America. It will be only a matter of time before intermarriage with well-meaning and good-hearted non-Jews will completely erode American Judaism. The hybrid "Chrismika" is only a stop along the one-way track. Maybe there will be an Orthodox farm next to the Amish farm.

Well, when the sex barrier falls, the same fate is in store for Evangelical Christianity. (There never was a consistent Evangelical food boundary; even the Reformed drank alcohol.) And when the new generations are none too sure that non-believers are headed for hell, it becomes inevitable that American Evangelicalism will ease into the acid bath of American Pluralism. And it may happen sooner than you think. And then all those mega-churches will be up for sale. Unless of course they find a new product to sell. TV preacher Joel Osteen has done just that. His Evangelical belief is merely vestigial; he has converted to New Thought. It is no coincidence that he fills that stadium. Others may not be so lucky"
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. NOw there is a person who knows some stuff
I remember when The Hiding Place film caused huge stress among the evangelicals...movies were evil and not to be attended...but this one was 'christian'.
Many people think I left the church because I'm gay, but I left it because I am an artist, and they called all art 'sin'. That clearly proved to me that they were not healthy people.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Thanks. Interesting piece
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
23. the intersection of the economy and the religious right
will an intersection to watch.

first i don't believe for a second the religious right plans peace with those whom they quite frankly see as a threat -- even the suburban, moderate churches. even the moderate ones longingly look backwards in regards to women, lgbtiq folk, health, etc.

second the longer the economy stays bad is a greater chance for the ranks of ALL these churches to swell.
and they know it.

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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. I wish all Evangelical Preachers would fuck off
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
25. Who cares what they think?
I mean, everyone's is entitled to their opinion but they are not allowed to shove their religion on everyone else. Why these people have so much influence is a mystery to me. They are anti-American as far as I am concerned. They are opposed to civil rights for all, opposed to science (stem cells, etc). We should not compromise with them on these issues.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
26. Anyone who thinks the rights of women and the GLBT community
will be diminished under Obama, is completely and hopelessly delusional.
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Exactly! Those people are an itty bitty piece in the grand scheme
of things. All you have to do is look at those crowds yesterday and the reaction around the world. They can forget it. The world is moving forward. They can either get on the train or keep standing on the sidelines tossing pebbles. The world has moved on. :)
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
29. The "crisis" here is with the EV leaders, NOT their followers. . .
If Obama does what I think he's capable of, their coffers will be diminishing month by month, year by year.

:evilgrin:
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HillWilliam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
31. I feel no need to extend them any further olive branches
since every time we have, they've snatched it out of our hands and beat us with it. Fuck 'em. They had their warren invocation, now their sorry asses can get with the program. They've talked smack and wrought nothing but heartache and destruction. They have contributed absolutely nothing positive to society -- nothing at all. They whine, finger-point, bitch, moan, berate, snipe, criticize, destroy, detract, cause dissent, distraction, upset, and are nothing but a drag on progress.

Strike that last. They're nothing but a drag. It's time to toss them aside for the lazy, irritating, non-productive dead-weight they are.
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vinylsolution Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
32. The mega-preachers are more worried....
... about Obama sending the IRS after them.

That's their only real panic.





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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I have written several posts to Change.gov requesting that very thing. I'm not giving up n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
33. Isn't it interesting they don't ask Evangelicals like Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo??
They would get very different replies from those who vote Dem!

Not to mention the Evangelicals who are now committed to poverty and the environment!

Yes, too bad they ignore them.

:(
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. Evangelical preachers are self-satisfied, self-absorbed whiny white men
"Our respect and prayers do not prevent us from continuing to speak out and speak out strongly when we disagree on Biblical issues with the president." (John Hagee)

EXCUSE ME??? WHAT BIBLICAL ISSUES???? These wedge issues you all have been pulling out of your butts all these years????

These stupid white men are fundamentally biblically IGNORANT on top of being racist, sexist homophobes.

They grab onto and misquote highly select quotes from the Bible and ignore completely the overall teachings of Jesus especially. Jesus was pretty much into valuing the poor and the marginalized and had little good to say about the wealthy and self-satisfied.

Oops!! I keep forgetting! That whole Sermon on the Mount just isn't covered much in the fundie megachurches!!! :grr:
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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You forgot power hungry meglomaniacs :) n/t
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Very true!
My bad that I missed that! :)
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Reminds me of a Charlie Daniels song he doesn't perform any more -gee, wonder why?
From "Long Haired Country Boy":

Preacher man talkin' on the teevee
Puttin down the rock n' roll
Wants me to send a donation
Cause he's worried 'bout my soul

Jesus walked on the water
That I know is true
Seems to me that preacher man
Wants to do a little walkin' too...

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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. That foster a cult of personality around themselves.
Funny how many of those megachurches seem to falter after the self-proclaimed 'pastor' either gets old and feeble, kicks the bucket, or gets caught in a scandal.

Then the sheep search out another wolf to fleece them.
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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Oh how true! Reminds me of a quote from a pope:
"If the people want to be deceived! Then let them be deceived!"

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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
37. May they all soon be with their precious lord
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prostock69 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. That damned rapture can't happen soon enough! n/t
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