Jack Bauer Belongs on Tool Academy

[Vyan]

Crossposted on Dailykos

There's a new show that premiered this week. It's a show were a bunch of big muscled womanizing lunk heads think they're in competition to become "Mr. Awesome." As it turns out, while they chase the scantily clad girls dangled in front of them, their actual girlfriends are watching every second. They're really on a show called "Tool Academy" and they are the Tools.

After yesterday's revelation that the torture used in Gitmo has ruined the case against the 20th 9-11 hijacker, the real "Tools" appear to be George Bush, Dick Cheney, the entire Right-wing Media and Jack Bauer.

Just watch as they completely spooge over the 24 Season premiere.


Watch http://www.youtube.com/v/LolY4THlw6M”>Video


In the speech that Billy, Doocy and Rushy find so inspiring Bauer, while being challenged for his treatment of a suspect named Hadib, tightens his jaw and heroically growls the following.

BAUER: When I am activated, when I am brought into a situation, there is a reason and that reason is to complete the objectives of my mission at all costs. <...>

For a combat soldier the difference between success and failure is your ability to adapt to your enemy. The people that I deal with, they don’t care about your rules. ... In answer to your question, am I above the law? No, sir. I am more than willing to be judged by the people you claim to represent. I will let them decide what price I should pay. Now please do not sit there with that smug look on your face and expect me to regret the decisions that I have made because, sir, the truth is I don’t.

OOhh... how masterful.

Most of us who live in the real world know that Jack Bauer is just a character on a tv show - unfortunately some of our governmental leaders over the last 8 years don't seem to know that since they happen to be spouting the exact same ridiculous B.S. as Bauer.

This week Vice President Cheney said when asked about his interrogation program said that ...

"I feel very good about what we did. I think it was the right thing to do,"... it would have been unethical or immoral for us not to" torture detainees

Kinda Baeur-rific, isn't it?

And President Bush? In his final Press Conference he said.

"I'm in the Oval Office and I am told that we have captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the professionals believe he has information necessary to secure the country. So I ask what tools are available for us to find information from him and they gave me a list of tools...

{We }"got legal opinions before any decision was made." Bush insisted that torturing Mohammed produced "good information" that "helped save lives on American soil."

That's Baeur-tastic - except for one little detail - shit didn't happen that way.

The guys in the CIA say they didn't get jack crap from Mohammed after he was tortured.

As for K.S.M. himself, who (as Jane Mayer writes) was waterboarded, reportedly hung for hours on end from his wrists, beaten, and subjected to other agonies for weeks, Bush said he provided “many details of other plots to kill innocent Americans.” K.S.M. was certainly knowledgeable. It would be surprising if he gave up nothing of value. But according to a former senior C.I.A. official, who read all the interrogation reports on K.S.M., “90 percent of it was total fucking bullshit.” A former Pentagon analyst adds: “K.S.M. produced no actionable intelligence. He was trying to tell us how stupid we were.”

Mission Accomplished Khallid.

Ok, so the torture didn't really work with him.. KSM told us what we wanted to hear, just like Curveball who said that Saddam had "Mobile Labs for Chemical Weapons" (Guess what? He didn't) and Abu Zubaydah who supposedly led us to KSM, but uh - actually didn't.

Bush discussed Abu Zubaydah’s treatment in his 2006 announcement. “As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so the C.I.A. used an alternative set of procedures.... The procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.” Soon, Bush went on, Abu Zubaydah “began to provide information on key al-Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September 11.” Among them, Bush said, were Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged 9/11 mastermind, and his fellow conspirator Ramzi Binalshibh. In fact, Binalshibh was not arrested for another six months and K.S.M. not for another year. In K.S.M.’s case, the lead came from an informant motivated by a $25 million reward.

Then there as Ibn-Sheik Al-Libi who told us Saddam was supplying al-Qeada with Chemical weapons training. Guess why he said that?

According to the ABC News report, one other detainee who was waterboarded was Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, the director of the Khaldan training camp in Afghanistan, who was captured in November 2001. His current whereabouts are unknown, although there are suspicions that he was finally delivered to the Libyan government. Having slipped off the radar, the government clearly does not want his case revived, not only because it may have to explain what has happened to him, but also because, as a result of the application of "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," al-Libi claimed that Saddam Hussein had offered to train two al-Qaeda operatives in the use of chemical and biological weapons.

Al-Libi's "confession" led to President Bush declaring, in October 2002, "Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and gases," and his claims were, notoriously, included in Colin Powell's speech to the UN Security Council on February 5, 2003. The claims were of course, groundless, and were recanted by al-Libi in January 2004, but it took Dan Cloonan, a veteran FBI interrogator, who was resolutely opposed to the use of torture, to explain why they should never have been believed in the first place.

For the last time: the pre-war intelligence that led us into a war with Iraq wasn't "Flawed" - the techniques Bush authorized were.

Just like Bauer - both Bush and Cheney claim that they only did what thy had to do to Save American Lives. One of our chief Special Forces Interrogators from Iraq (the guy who helped hunt down abu Masub al-Zarqawi without torturing anyone) says, That's a crock of Shit.

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. ... It’s no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me — unless you don’t count American soldiers as Americans.

Bush claims he asked "what tools are available to us" - but the answer he received from John Yoo, Robert Delahunt and Alberto Gonzales in 2002 was - just pretend that the Geneva Conventions don't count and you won't get prosecuted.

Your determination would create a reasonable basis in law that (the War Crimes Act) does not apply which would provide a solid defense to any future prosecution," Gonzales wrote.

If Geneva was off the table (although the SCOTUS later said in Hamdan v Rumsfeld -"The HELL it wasn't!") , then all bets were off right from the start. All tactics they used from that point on - were their choice. It was Bush's choice, and he made the wrong one when he authorized water torture, sleep deprivation, stress positions and hypothermia as interrogation tactics.

Just like the Khmer Rouge, Augusto Pinchet, and the Right-Wing's darling hero Bauer.

Despite his claim that he "has no regrets" Jack - in a very Bushian way - seems to selectively forget just what he's really done, and how much of it went straight to hell.

- In the 2-Hour re-season opener "24:Redemption" Bauer had been ON THE RUN OVERSEAS TO AVOID A CONGRESSIONAL SUBPEONA.

Y'know like a mixture between Mark Rich and Karl Rove.

- The only reason he came back to the U.S. is because some Weaslely State Dept. "Bastard" tricks and blackmails him into complying with the law, by putting a bunch a kids that Bauer is protecting at risk of being butchered by an African dictator. Jack "redeems" himself by angrily giving in to the subpoena only so that the kids can be saved, not because he's made any decision to "face the music".

- But Jack Baeur and CTU have tortured kids before, including the 17-year-old son of a sleeper-cell leader, who himself - as it turned out - was completely innocent and didn't know anything. Nevermind the fact he'd already been granted immunity and was perfectly willing to talk. While they were busy and distracted doing that the bad guys SHOT DOWN AIR FORCE ONE, killed the President and captured the nuclear football. CTU later used the kid and his mother as bait, both were murdered.

Nice work Jack.

- Bauer failed to stop a nuclear suitcase bomb (a device which doesn't exist) from going off ion the outskirts off L.A., near Valencia. Bye Bye Magic Mountain. He later shot and killed one of his best friends in cold blood to protect a terrorist source that might have led them to another suitcase-bomb. He didn't.

- Jack hijacked Marine One and kidnapped President Logan out from from under the Secret Service in order to get him to admit being involved in the plot to kill President Palmer. (Which didn't work, but Logan did admit hiding his knowledge of it on tape later)

- Jack tortured his girlfriends ex-husband, Paul, just because he suspected he might be involved in a terrorist plot - but the man was innocent and didn't know anything at all. Eventually he figured out that the bad guys were using his company without his knowledge, something they could have figured out by just asking. Or getting one of the legal thingee's - whachamacallit - oh yeah, a Warrant! Paul, being a really good sport, eventually took a bullet for Jack and ended up paralyzed.

- Jack broke onto the grounds of the Chinese Consolate - which is an act of War - in order to torture and interrogate the Chinese Ambassador. The Chinese retaliated by kidnapping Bauer (and torturing him, but of course he didn't break), his girlfriend - the same one, Audrey - followed him to China - was captured, tortured and LOST HER MIND. (What was that about "No Regrets" again?) Her Dad, The Secretary of Defense, was a little peaved.

- He tortured his own brother, and his brother managed to resist it and hide the fact that the real bad guy - was their father. (Yes, this show is a rather pathetic soap opera isn't it?) Dear 'ole Dad then killed the brother to shut him up just in case he couldn't resist a second time, and setup Jack to take the blame. Real Great Family values there.

Even on their own damn show Torture Doesn't work at least half the time, now in the current season Jack's tactics are negatively influencing an FBI agent who recruited his help. She's already committed one act of torture - disabling the respirator of a wounded suspect - and Jack wasn't even there.

I'm not saying Jack hasn't had some miraculous successes for your basic FANTASY SUPERHERO WET-DREAM, but Call me "fickle"- he's not exactly a "Hero" in my book. "Mr. Awesome" he is not. Neither is Bush.

"War Criminal" sounds about right, but Lord God King of the Tools will just have to do for now.

Vyan

P.S. Wanna hear a truly great speech about torture? How about http://www.youtube.com/v/zaE766EVocc”>Denzel Washington as Agent Hubbard in 1998's The Seige!

[rcrush]

1. I dont know why people take fictional televison so seriously

Its a pretty good show and I'm not trying to get some damn message out of it. Yeah the first couple of seasons were better and its pretty off the wall now but its just a tv show.

[Beausoleil]

2. Right, it's entertainment

I liked "V for Vendetta", too but I don't advocate blowing up Parliament.

[Vyan]

6. "V" was based on Guy Fawkes

and he really did try to blow up Parliament. Just thought you should know.

Vyan

[Beausoleil]

9. Yes, I know

but the movie was very entertaining.

I watch "24". It's entertaining. I can separate reality from entertainment. I know a lot of people can't. Do I agree with everything the "Jack Bauer" character does? No. Do I think that it should be banned because some people think that the representation of government behavior on the show should reflect reality? No. Hell, soap operas give people the wrong idea, but they're going to be watched and believed.

[Vyan]

14. Go and watch the first video

Really, listen to these guys get MOIST over Bauer.

I haven't suggested anything like banning, what I offered is a different piont of view - and an alternative Video with Denzel Washinging.

It should be noted that last year, the Commandant of West Point became so concerned that his students were so enamoured with Bauer - and were getting the completely distroted view about International Law - that he went to L.A. to visit the set and asked them to KNOCK OFF THE TORTURE!

In fact, Finnegan and the others had come to voice their concern that the show’s central political premise—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—was having a toxic effect. In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers. "I’d like them to stop," Finnegan said of the show’s producers. "They should do a show where torture backfires."

At other moments, the discussion was more strained. Finnegan told the producers that "24," by suggesting that the U.S. government perpetrates myriad forms of torture, hurts the country’s image internationally. Finnegan, who is a lawyer, has for a number of years taught a course on the laws of war to West Point seniors—cadets who would soon be commanders in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. He always tries, he said, to get his students to sort out not just what is legal but what is right. However, it had become increasingly hard to convince some cadets that America had to respect the rule of law and human rights, even when terrorists did not. One reason for the growing resistance, he suggested, was misperceptions spread by "24," which was exceptionally popular with his students. As he told me, "The kids see it, and say, ‘If torture is wrong, what about "24"?’ " He continued, "The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do."

You would expect that some people know the difference between reality and fantasy - but when NO ONE offers and accurate view of the facts as an alternative, particularly for the young who don't know the law yet - THE FANTASY TAKES ROOT.

This isn't theoretical - it's already happening that the future leaders of our Army are arguing with their instructors over the appropriateness of torture.

That's not a good deal.

Vyan

[Beausoleil]

15. I have a big problem with the education system in this country

Most of those cadets probably don't know the first thing about the Geneva Conventions. That's not the show's fault. It wasn't the show that was having a toxic effect as much as their president was. That's what I think Finnegan should have admitted. But he obviously valued his career more than telling his CinC to "knock it off", IMHO. "24" was a convenient scapegoat in view of the inability of the military brass to tell their "Commander-in-Chief" to knock off the torture, which he denied anyway.

Other than that, I agree with what you are saying about torture, but it's Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld who are at fault, not "24".

[Vyan]

18. It's Both...

What I think you don't fully comprehend is that Joel Surnow is specifically using "24" as a right-wing platform. He's admitted as much. Yes, Bush and Cheney are the problem - and "24" functions as a validation and justification for their policies.

Yes, other characters do oppose Bauer's tactics and policies - but he's ALWAYS vindicated in the end and they are *always* embarrased and disgraced, or else like Paul, eventually switch to Jack's point of view even after Jack Tortured Him for no good reason. other than expediency. What's convenient takes precedence over what's right or legal. Always. The people that are willing to do the "wrong thing for the right reasons" are the heroes, the brave noble ones - those who stand in their way - are the enemy, they're APPEASERS, Collaboraters, they're as bad as the terrorists they just want to "Pal Around with".

That's what Finnegan is having a hard time battling, Bush's words are coming out of Bauer's mouth and vice versa. That's not an accident.

If you've ever seen Surnow's other show "SU-2" you'll see that the idea of brutal treatment of suspects isn't something new to him - it was used as "comedy" in that show.

Vyan

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. I do!

With appropriate stage-craft, of course.

:evilgrin:

[Wildewolfe]

4. TV shows

Can be great entertainment.

They can also depersonalize and trivialize great wrongs so that what once would have outraged a person a person no longer cares about.

They can also make something greatly personal and have the absolute opposite effect.

There really isn't anything as "just a TV show". They all have an effect on our national consciousness. From Howdy Doody to Star Trek, M*A*S*H, Battlestar Galactica to 24. The effects may be 100% unintended (but in a lot of cases I suspect they're not... some times they're supposed to make us think... other times they're supposed to make us STOP thinking) but they're never "just a TV show".

[Windy]

5. I agree, I like it too and I'm a female. Its JUST ENTERTAINMENT...

Please don't take it seriously.

On a side note, its very funny, but the african-american actor who played President Palmer when the series first began actually said that he had a hand in helping america accept the notion of an african american president...

I also found it funny that the president in this season is a female. The writers got it wrong apparently.

[Wetzelbill]

13. they did

They wrote and shot this season while Hillary was widely regarded as the frontrunner. I think they anticipated her presidency a little. Interesting that they tried it. :)

[Roland99]

36. Damn straight!! "24" kicks butt. Love that show. It's FUN to watch. It's *TV*!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. I've never watched the show, but after this description I might.

I never liked that the son of a good liberal like Donald Sutherland would be involved with RW propaganda - but from the sound of it Bauer is a 1st class fuck up, and in pursuing the administration's way of doing things shows how terribly ineffective they are, making it a stealth LW presentation.

[Vyan]

7. Co-Executive Producer Joel Surnow

is an admitted "Right-Wing Wacko" (who was also behind failed Fox News Comedy Show) and it clearly shows in the mood and direction of the show - however, there is also producer Howard Gordon who used to work on the X-Files, so every once in a while - things don't always go the way the wing-nuts might like. One thing though: THEY ALWAYS MAKES ANYONE WHO ADVOCATES ABIDDING BY THE LAW LOOK LIKE SOME KIND OF WIMP OR PUSSY!

Vyan

[Beausoleil]

11. This season they are kind of going overboard with the

"rule of law" schtick, while the female president is adamant about unilaterally attacking a Rawanda-like country. I think she mentions "rule of law" about 40 or 50 times. It's something the RW producers haven't really come to grips with yet, IMO, "rule of law" vs. "American rule". It's like they don't see a difference.

[Vyan]

17. Yeah, the "Rule of Law" is just a mirage to them n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. It's An Amazing Show; One Of The Best On Tv. You Will Get Hooked Quick!

[Vyan]

22. Sure: As long as you leave your brain and morals in neutral. n/t

[yodermon]

31. last season sucked ass; hope they got better writers

[Usrename]

34. Yeah, right! They can alter all the laws of physics at will on that show.

I tried to watch the season opener. I had to give it up when hacking a computer allowed the bad guys to interrupt the laws of electromagnetic wave propagation.

The show is juvenile, at best. It's a joke, to anyone with a brain.

[Wetzelbill]

10. What people don't seem to grasp, is Jack Bauer has become an island onto himself

Especially RWers. Would anybody in their right mind want to be Jack Bauer? He's fucked up his whole life making wild decisions. His wife was killed. His daughter wants nothing to do with him. Any woman who he's loved or loved him is out of his life. The president who was the moral center of the show, Jack's friend, was killed. His friend Tony lost his wife and went to the darkside for awhile. Jack has some serious demons, he's done things he can't take back.

When you watch that show, you can pick out things that support your own philosophy. As much as Jack has tortured people etc and what he said in that hearing, he also throws in tidbits of regret for it and in certain reflections shows signs that he believes he may have been wrong. But in public, he's defiant and doesn't readily admit that he's messed up. Who does that sound like? Bush? Cheney? Yeah, but Jack is also more sympathetic figure. He's a tool, alright. He's a product of a fucked up system, one that lets him and still lets him turn into that out of control monster when they feel they need him to be one. In the earlier seasons, Jack was out of control because of the personal nature of events, since then he almost turned into a monster. He has nothing. No love. Few real friends. He's facing a Senate showdown. Jack Bauer isn't a role model. And neither was that weak sniveling president who wanted to orchestrate a terrorist attack so he could then expand his powers and also the "war on terror." Maybe David Palmer, the assassinated president, was the biggest role model and redeeming figure in the show, and he died. And part of Jack's humanity died with him. Now there is a female president. She's smart and strong and is showing some interesting moral depth. Maybe we can see in her what made David Palmer the show's moral center. And maybe she can bring Jack out of the darkness a little.

But RWers see this stuff and think it all justifies torture and other extreme measures. The irony is the blowback. How many of these plots tie to previous actions? Tony became a terrorist because of blowback. Jack was kidnapped and tortured by the Chinese because what he did was wrong. Almost all of these terrorists are seeking to do these things because of bad policy or to settle a score with Jack or somebody else. 24 is a neverending cycle of blowback. It has to be I guess so they can have something to do every single season, but it's interesting to see the correlation between that and our own problems with blowback. We're in a neverending cycle too. But it's real life. And maybe if Jack and all the people at CTU were a little more conscious of their actions in the past, they wouldn't have so many enemies. Maybe not, but 30 years of Jack's life he spent making enemies in his career and it's haunted him and his country ever since. Maybe we need to look about at 50-60 years of bad policy and start thinking about what the United States can do different as well? It couldn't hurt.

In the end though, people need to smarten up and recognize the difference between entertainment and real life. Jack Bauer is a fictional character, 24 is a hyperpaced, exaggerated version of what happens in terror situations or with the basic threat of terrorism. Both sides of the argument, and those in the middle, could maybe learn something from analyzing the show, but that doesn't really make it a viable real life option for dealing with anything. You don't learn how to fight by watching a Jean-Claude Van Damme 80s movie, and you're not going to learn how to truly fight terrorism by watching 24. Simple fact. I love the show and can see both good and bad in it. But is it really worth all the fuss? No. Jack Bauer isn't the reason we went to war with Iraq and he's not the reason we tortured prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. And Jack Bauer wouldn't get any good info from Khalid Sheik Mohammed either. His style isn't the way to fight terrorism. His style is the way to get television ratings and to entertain an audience. And that's about it.

[Beausoleil]

12. Well said! n/t

[Vyan]

16. I agree about the Blowback...

that is exactly what the show has been about since the beginning - Jack's actions in a botched blackbag assasination attempt in the Balkans is what brought personal consequences onto his family and began the attacks on Senator Palmer who authorized the mission.

Unfortunately, both Jack and the series creators have completely failed to show the self-awareness to realize that Jack and the U.S.'s past and current "No Holds Barred" actions are progressively making things worse, not better.

In the current season the African butcher Dubaku is holding the entire U.S. infrastructure hostage at least partly because the U.S. killed his brother. Well, not the U.S. - JACK BAUER KILLED HIS BROTHER. The past continues to be prologue, and they learn nothing.

And if you still think it's just TV, you're grossly underestimating the impact of this program as I discuss in this reply.


Vyan

[Wetzelbill]

23. I don't think it's really 24 though

I think it's grossly overestimating the impact of the show when there are other factors around that are much more obvious. Like Rummy, Cheney and Bush. It starts at the top, not with Jack Bauer. Ceratin aspects of 24 might reaffirm that with them, but that's tapping into something they already believe. The President's legal counsel, future AG, Alberto Gonzales called the Geneva Conventions "quaint." John Yoo and others started making legal arguments to that Bush/Cheney use to this day to excuse circumventing the law. We went to war with an obvious disregard for the rule of law, we detained prisoners and engaged in torture in similar fashion. Cheney basically said in an interview the other day that if the president, and by extension the United States, does something, it isn't illegal.

Doocy, Kilmeade, those guys didn't come to any of those conclusions because of Jack Bauer, they just use it as a way to justify their own beliefs that they cultivated somewhere else. Same with the cadets, they might argue with their superiors about Jack Bauer's tactics, but Jack Bauer didn't teach them it was right in the first place. It's not an accident that they watch the show and identify with the torture aspects of it, it's probably not an accident they went in the military while holding those views in the first place.

I can guarantee you this, long before Jack Bauer came around guys like Doocy and Kilmeade were drooling while watching Red Dawn or some Arnold movie and justifying their own already ingrained biases that they got from goofy right-wing Cold War rhetoric. They might agree with it, but it's not their primary influence. Same goes with those cadets, Jack Bauer isn't their primary influence, they basically believed that from other sources anyway. George Bush, Dick Cheney, other hyperpatriotic propaganda mouthpieces? Yeah. Maybe just the general "U.S. is never wrong, might is right" culture and ideology. But 24 isn't the reason they believe that, they only use it as an excuse to reinforce it. What people take from pop culture goes deeper than the pop culture itself.

[Vyan]

26. It's a self-perpuating loop...

24's Executive producer Joel Surnow is an avowed Wingnut and has worked on shows for Fox News. Of course people like Doocy love the show because Surnow's point of view is the same as Doocy's, and the Same as Cheney's and the same as Bush's.

This is what Surnow said about Ollie North (who violated Federal Law in the Iran Contra Affair)

"It’s a deep, dark ugly world out there. Maybe this is what Ollie North was trying to do. It would be nice to have a secret government that can get the answers and take care of business — even kill people."

It would be "Nice"?

Obviously, he's been thinking about this for a good long while. It doesn't matter which came first, or which is greater - they FEED and re-enforce each other.

Here's Conservative Columnist Cal Thomas on the usefulness of "24".

In his January 30 syndicated column, Cal Thomas attacked “ideologically decrepit” Iraq war protesters and claimed: “Unlike Vietnam, the Islamofascists won’t leave us alone if we leave Iraq before stability is established.” Discussing the possible consequences of exiting Iraq, Thomas referenced Fox Broadcasting’s TV series 24: “Watch the TV drama ‘24′ for what could be our prophetic and imminent future with a nuclear device exploding in major cities. Having concluded we don’t have the stomach to fight them on their turf, they might understandably deduce we are even less willing to fight them on ours.”

The wingnut writers like Cal aren't the only ones taking this way too seriously.

Our troops in the field have been using "24" for Tips on how to handle combatants.

Interrogators didn’t have guidance from the military on what to do because we were told that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply any more. So our training was obsolete, and we were encouraged to be creative. We turned to television and movies to look for ways of interrogating. I can say that I saw that with myself, also. I would adopt the posture of the television or movie interrogator, thinking that establishing that simple power arrangement, establishing absolute power over the detainee, would force him to break. ...

(We adopted mock) executions and mock electrocution, stress positions, isolation, hypothermia. Threatening to execute family members or rape detainees’ wives and things like that.

In the absense of law - This is what fills the void.


Vyan

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. Go Jack! Jack Bauer's Awesome, And I Laugh My Ass Off At People Like You!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Tool.

[Vyan]

21. Thanks Rush- I'll keep it in mind n/t

[Wetzelbill]

24. lol

[Usrename]

35. He's not nearly as Awsome as Mighty Mouse.

As a matter of fact, I think most children do prefer cartoons to Jack Bauer.

[ebdarcy]

25. I have high hopes for this thread.

24 threads are always fun.

[Wetzelbill]

27. two more things

I think where 24 is the most dangerous is not that it influences people to torture or think torture is the right way to go. I think the impact it has, even on those opposed to torture, is it makes it an acceptable afterthought. It's happened, that sucks, but let's move on..... I think too many people think like that. I've seen some even here on DU. It doesn't make torture itself mainstream, but it allows us to forgive it or at least forget it as a tactic once it happens. It's easy to excuse, because even if we don't agree with it, we can still think that Jack was doing something for the good, but he got carried away in the moment. He's a flawed hero, but still a hero. I know you don't think of him as one, but even in that context its' different. Why? Because at least Jack is on OUR side, and meant right, so we can forgive his abuses. I don't like that. I don't believe torture should be considered acceptable like that. It's the very few who torture, but it's millions who let it slide. That's horrid to me.

Also, with a little reflection, I think you have convinced me that I may underestimate it's impact somewhat, I still don't think it's as impactful as some people believe though.

Other than that, good discussion. Great thread, I love this stuff.

[Vyan]

28. Along that "acceptability" line...

Here's what some of our troops - many of whom are big Bauer fans - have said about the influence of "24" on how they handle detainees...

Interrogators didn’t have guidance from the military on what to do because we were told that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply any more. So our training was obsolete, and we were encouraged to be creative. We turned to television and movies to look for ways of interrogating. I can say that I saw that with myself, also. I would adopt the posture of the television or movie interrogator, thinking that establishing that simple power arrangement, establishing absolute power over the detainee, would force him to break. ...

(We adopted mock) executions and mock electrocution, stress positions, isolation, hypothermia. Threatening to execute family members or rape detainees’ wives and things like that.

I posted this elsewhere in the thread, but it bears repeating.

vyan

[Wetzelbill]

29. slightly off point but,

I had a dream where I used a lamp cord, like Bauer did before, to shock and torture somebody. Then later on in that dream somebody did the same thing to me and they learned if from what I had done. Effing blowback, lol.

[Vyan]

30. Cornyn Grills Holder with Bogus 24 Scenario

This is a follow-up to my original post and I would have included it if I could, but it was happening in real time as I was posting:

Via Thinkprogress

Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) could not fathom that an Attorney General would reject a practice that both is unlawful and endangers Americans. He tried to get Holder to back off his anti-torture stance by presenting an absurd “ticking time bomb” hypothetical in which thousands of American lives are at stake. “You would still refuse to condone aggressive interrogation techniques?” Cornyn asked. When Holder replied that waterboarding is not the only interrogation method, Cornyn insisted, “Assume that it was”:

HOLDER: I think your hypothetical assumes a premise that I’m not willing to concede.

CORNYN: I know you don’t like my hypothetical.

HOLDER: No, the hypothetical’s fine; the premise that underlies it I’m not willing to accept, and that is that waterboarding is the only way that I could get that information from those people.

CORNYN: Assume that it was.

HOLDER: Given the knowledge that I have about other techniques and what I’ve heard from retired admirals and generals and FBI agents, there are other ways in a timely fashion that you can get information out of people that is accurate and will produce useable intelligence. And so it’s hard for me to accept or to answer your hypothetical without accepting your premise. And in fact, I don’t think I can do that.

A few minutes later, Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) identified where Cornyn most likely thought up his torture-is-the-only-option scenario: “I understand Senator Cornyn’s questions. They are questions that anyone who watches Jack Bauer on ‘24" would ask.”

LOL!!!

Vyan

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. You know he's not real, right?

[Vyan]

33. I do. Tell Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Doocy and Cornyn n/t