To all the vaccine-haters:

[lightningandsnow]

I have a friend, and one of her best friends died last week.

The girl was 17, a senior in high school, someone who had many friends and was known for her kindness to others. She had her whole life ahead of her.

And she died of meningitis. It killed her in a day, maybe two. It could have been easily prevented by a vaccine. And, in fact, she probably got it from someone who wasn't vaccinated.

You still think that pseudoscientific dogma is worth a 17-year-old's fucking life?

And, another thing. Go to any country in the global south where people are dying of easily vaccine-preventable illnesses, simply from a lack of resources, and ask them how they're liking their lack of vaccines.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

1. Unfortunately, there's no reasoning with some people.

I gave up trying to reason with the hardcore anti-vaccine people ages ago and concentrated on talking to those who were otherwise reasonable but misguided. But I don't do it on DU, because the whackjob contingent here simply tries to drown out any reasoned argument. So I hope you're wearing your flame retardant underwear.

[BlooInBloo]

2. I'm ok with letting evolution deal with fools...

This is one of the few avenues it can actually work, due to the large number of social protections extended to idiots.

By all means: do not seek out the best that medical science has to offer, if you think something else is better. Rock on.

[LeftishBrit]

4. Unfortunately...

the fools generally endanger others as well as themselves.

[varkam]

5. Except that the children don't really have a choice..

if the stupid that the fools choose to engage in affected only themselves, then fine - but we're talking about communicable disease and children who cannot act for themselves when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Odin2005]

13. Which is why I think these parents are guilty of child endangerment. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

28. True that. That should simply be illegal.

[Fireweed247]

113. It should be illegal to not get vaccines

:crazy:

[LeftishBrit]

3. I am so sorry about this awful tragedy

And access to medicine (including vaccines) in the developing world is one of my big political issues; and, yes, the whole issue really upsets me. I really find it not too different from the religious ideologues who oppose stem cell research. Or those who continue to spread the false statement that abortion causes breast cancer, because it suits their ideology.

[xchrom]

6. recommend

[seabeyond]

7. meningitis could be caused by a number of things. head trauma, ear infection, strep throat

really irresponsible to say the reason your friend died (and i am sorry) is cause someone wasnt vaccinated.

[lightningandsnow]

9. I didn't know the girl, personally.

And I can't say for sure whether she died because she wasn't vaccinated. However, there is a vaccine available for bacterial meningitis, and people do die of vaccine-preventable illnesses.

[seabeyond]

10. my point. the reason she got and died could have easily had NOTHING to do

with whether a person is vaccinated or not. nothing to do with your subject line that you point an accusing finger at. even with vaccination only hits two out of the three strains in u.s. and works on 90% of the population.




About 2,600 people get meningococcal disease each year in the U.S. 10 to 5 percent of these people die, in spite of treatment with antibiotics. Of those who live, another 11to19 percent lose their arms or legs, become deaf, have problems with their nervous systems, become mentally retarded, or suffer seizures or strokes.


Two meningococcal vaccines are available in the U.S.:

Meningococcal polysaccharide vaccine (M.P.S.V.4 or Menomune) has been available since the 1970s.

Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (M.C.V.4 or Menactra) was licensed in 2005.

Both vaccines can prevent 4 types of meningococcal disease, including 2 of the 3 types most common in the United States and a type that causes epidemics in Africa. Meningococcal vaccines cannot prevent all types of the disease. But they do protect many people who might become sick if they didn’t get the vaccine.

Both vaccines work well, and protect about 90 percent of those who get it. Menactra is expected to give better, longer-lasting protection.

[varkam]

8. Any death is tragic...

and the tragedy is compounded when it could have been easily prevented.

And yes, there are many people the world over that are dying of vaccine-preventable illnesses that simply don't have access to them for lack of resources.

Hell, in this country when polio was killing people, there was virtually no one that was "anti vaxx" aside from seriously fucked up religious crazies. Now, it's considered fashionable.

[SheilaT]

11. Is the meningitis vaccine

one that is now (and starting when, because I know my two sons didn't get it) given routinely? And if she got it from someone who wasn't vaccinated, it looks like she wasn't vaccinated either.

Are you certain she died from a form that would have been 100 percent prevented by the vaccine? Sadly, many vaccines are not 100% effective, although the protection they afford is considerably better than no protection at at all.

That said, the death of a 17 year old is a genuine tragedy, and I can't imagine how I'd feel if one of my children had died at that age for any reason.

[nemo137]

15. Meningitis vacs are generally given to college freshmen

although I've seen ads encouraging giving it younger. So it may be the case that neither of the girls had gotten it yet. Regardless, the point that 1.)there are communicable diseases that can be prevented through vaccination and 2.) that not vaccinating has wider consequences is the take-home here.

[seabeyond]

16. above i have some info on the vaccination and we have no idea if this has anything

to do with vaccinations, belief in them or not.

to blame and shame this on a group of people that have issue with vaccination is wrong. we dont have the information or knowledge.

[SheilaT]

35. I did not blame anyone for anything.

I simply pointed out that there was an awful lot of unknowns in the OP. A blanket condemnation of all who don't get vaccinated, no matter what the reason, for the death of someone else who apparently also did not get vaccinated is a bit of overkill.

Did the 17 year old in question ever get any vaccinations? Was she or her parents even aware of the meningitis vaccine? Was she planning to get it but hadn't yet gotten around to it.

Maybe we should discuss the thousands of teens and young adults who get killed or maimed in car accidents and suggest that no one under the age of 21 be allowed to drive.

[seabeyond]

50. of course you didn't blame and sorry you took it that way. i agree with you.

there isn't the info.

i dont have the vac. do you? i bet most on this thread doesn't yet they through out such a hate and blame and for what?

i am just appalled with the lack of thought and hideous attack on this thread.

[SheilaT]

64. I apologize for misunderstanding you.

No, I have not had that vaccine and since I am not at high risk, have no intention of getting it. And yes, the virulent attacks against those who choose not to get vaccinated for something are a bit distressing.

.

[BlooInBloo]

31. Nothing is 100% for fuck's sake. It's not about fucking 100%. It's about MAXIMIZING your chances.

Sheesh.

[seabeyond]

32. my kids dont have this vaccination. not recommended or suggested by our doctor. i dont have it

husband doesnt have it. i havent even heard of it until this thread.

i bet the strong, really strong majority on this thread yelling about idiots dont have this vaccination.

was this girl expected to have the vaccination?

[BlooInBloo]

33. "not recommended or suggested by our doctor".

Then there's no problem.

[seabeyond]

34. hey.... my kids have regular appt, goooood doctor, on top of stuff....

none of us know anything about this and we are all suppose to have vac

are you really suggesting

2600 cases a yr
5-10% die
2 different vaccinations, up to 4-6 doses
covers 2 out of 3 common strains, not even mentioning the uncommon out there
and vacc works on 90%, leaving 10 is doesnt

and that small number we are all to be vac'ed

and people across the nation dont know about the vac
people on the board arent vac'ed
people on this thread spouting scorn arent vac'ed

and you are going after me for this?

are you vaccinated for this?

[Pithlet]

53. I don't think the OP meant to smear anyone that doesn't have this particular vaccine.

I think the point was merely that they save lives. That they aren't these evil nefarious things that are going around giving kids autism left and right. She was using an example of a deadly disease that a vaccine exists for.

Some doctors may not be recommending it yet, because it is a new vaccine. But, if it becomes more widespread, it would be a damn shame if some parents opt out simply because of the fear of vaccines such hysteria instilled in them, and not because of any actual evidence it presents a risk of harm that outweighs the risk of death that could occur with the disease. Then they're putting their child at unnecessary risk.

[Odin2005]

12. On an Asperger's message board I frequent there is an idiot that claims that vaccines don't work.

Sadly the fact she beleives she's an Aspie herself and constantly spews BS about how elimination of most lethal communicable diseases was entirely the result of improved sanitation and that vaccines did nothing. The most sad thing was that she, an autistic person, was spewing the vaccines cause Autism" BS. Other posters, myself included, tried to knock sense into her but it was impossible, she was neck-deep in "alternative medicine" quackery.

People like her are guilty of child endangerment IMO.

[waiting for hope]

24. That may be my sister-in-law .....

:scared: She thinks Tom Cruise's little anti-depression rant on The Today show was spot on and that more people should be listening to him ... I think she has opted out on a couple of vaccines for her kids. She takes about a zillion supplements (some which she did during pregnancy) that I find a bit questionable. And you can't reason with her, there is an innate feeling of being self-righteous that she exudes.

[SidDithers]

14. K&R...

both my kids have had Menactra.

Sid

[1776Forever]

17. For me it isn't the vaccines as much as the mercury base - they keep saying there getting rid of it!

But it is still there! I went to my Dr. and ask for a "live" flu shot with no mercury base and they couldn't get me one. I even called the local Health Dept. here in my Ohio town and they couldn't get me one. I couldn't get it in Florida either accept where I used to work where the nurse was so wonderful that she demanded this type of shot! God bless her where ever she is now! It does make a difference! The last time I had a flu shot in 2002 it was at my local Dr's office and I got deathly ill from it and then the Dr. told me it had the mercury base! He was even surprised! I would hope someone is going to champion this in the future!

[Johonny]

19. I seems impossible the mercury made u ill

it isn't impossible the vaccine made you ill. There are real dangers with any vaccine. In general the risk to the population at large is vastly greater than the risk of being vaccinated. But that doesn't make you feel better if your one of the small percentage that gets really ill or dies.

[1776Forever]

22. I disagree. I almost died from eating grouper - the ocean fish in 1994.

As written on in this article:

http://www.babycenter.com/404_should-i-be-concerned-about-mercury-levels-in-fish-during-pr_2657.bc

by Charles Santerre, toxicologist and food scientist

(snip)

According to the FDA/ EPA guidelines, you should also limit yourself to 12 ounces a week (about two servings) of canned "light" tuna and other cooked fish. Once again, our recommendations are more protective — eat fewer than 8 ounces a week of canned "light" tuna. And you should completely avoid shark, swordfish, king mackerel, and tilefish (also called golden or white snapper), tuna steak (fresh or frozen), orange roughy, Spanish mackerel, marlin, and grouper because these fish are at the top of the food chain and contain the highest levels of mercury.

....

I have auto immune issues and have hypothyroid problems. For some of us this is extrememly important to stay away from ALL mercury at all times!

[seabeyond]

25. i agree with you on this, but better to ignore cause pro vacc afraid losing ground

to anti vacc.... ergo, all effected are disposable in their little war

[TZ]

106. flumist has NO preservatives.

Get that instead if you are so afraid of .01% thimerosol (which has even less than that mercury in it). There is more mercury in a CFL bulb.

[1776Forever]

111. Thanks but I am too old and if you have immune issues that is bad too.

I appreciate the post though.

[Fireweed247]

118. You don't normally inject bulbs do ya?

How can they tell us mercury in fish is so harmful to injest, we must run away if someone breaks a thermometer, they shut down a school in California because some kids brought some to school....but no problem shooting it into a newborn regularly?

[AwakeAtLast]

18. My grandfather didn't trust vaccines

He was born in 1905, so by the time vaccines became widely available, his children were school age. Mom survived measles, mumps, and a few others I can't remember right now.

When Mom's cousin contracted Polio, he marched Mom and her brother to the local doctor for their Polio vaccines that very day.

I'm sorry about your friend's friend. Meningitis acts so quickly some people don't even know what's happening. It always seems to strike people of that age, too, which makes it a little more tragic. Sending you love and light for you and the families.

:hug:

[MicaelS]

20. Idiots, absolute fucking idiots...

Just proves you can have intelligence and be educated (have a degree) and still be a complete fucking woo-woo idiot.

[seabeyond]

21. who is the idiot? what did they do wrong? since you know what happened

and know what caused, and know whether they had vacc or not, and what strain it was....

then maybe you can tell me exactly who the idiot is

[MicaelS]

26. Anti-vaxxers, that's who. n/t

[seabeyond]

30. what does that have to do with op? n/t

[Marrah_G]

23. Myself, my ex and my three children were all vaccinated against it 13-14 years ago

My entire small city was after a rather nasty outbreak killed a bunch of people.

[Lyric]

27. Give it up, AspieGrrl.

Your heart is in the right place, but there's no reasoning with Paranoia.

I'm sorry about your friend's friend.

:hug:

[HamdenRice]

29. Was she the NYC Stuyvascent High School student?

A girl that this NYC specialized high school died last week. I've read that another student has fallen ill there.

Is this the same case?

[lightningandsnow]

47. Yes, that was her.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

69. I live in Westchester Co. and my sons' pediatrician didn't recommend the vaccine until after they

graduated high school and were going to college. He is very cautious and my guess is that this vaccine is not recommended until then. I am sorry for your friend's loss. Stuyvesant is the cream of NYC high schools and from what you say, a bright light went out.

[Kansas Wyatt]

36. I'm still not getting that damn Flu Vaccine!

And I will always consider any drug approved under BushCo, Inc. as a great risk to take.

[TZ]

38. Vaccines aren't drugs btw.

And drugs are approved by scientific panels on the FDA of career scientists..did they all lose their scientific knowledge magically in the last 8 years?
The flu vaccine is an old technology btw..probably about 20 years old.
I guess the people like my sister who can't be vaccinated because of her Lupus can thank you for being hospitalized with influenza caught from people like you...

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Do you understand what a carrier does?

Ever hear of Typhoid Mary?

[Raineyb]

71. That seems a bit far fetched. They don't even offer the flu vaccine to everyone

Of course that's also assuming that the current flu vaccine is going to be effective against the current strain which is no guarantee.

Regards

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kansas Wyatt]

46. Just as there are no lemmings on the left, eh?

I really didn't know that "critical thinking" mandated full submission to what the government tells me.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TZ]

37. K+R and for all the people who think this OP doesn't apply..

This is happening ALL OVER the country because of the anti-vax movement. Measles is BACK because of anti-vaxxers (and read sometime about the blindness, deafness, damage to pregnant women and their unborn children from measles). In fact before the measles vaccine was routine Measles was one of the worlds biggest killers. So AspieGrrls story whether true or not in this individual case is VERY true in many many places in this country.
Or look at the UK which has had TYPHOID outbreaks from people who don't want to get vaccinated, go overseas and bring it back to the country.
Lets all remember that smallpox and polio are DEAD in this country because of vaccines.
And polio is NOT dead in Africa because they have their own anti-vaxx movement.

[seabeyond]

39. then start a thread about the facts and attack anti vac. to use this story and blame girls death

is wrong, incorrect, not factual, .....

[Pithlet]

49. But the OP was trying to make a point.

The point is that vaccinations save lives. It would be a shame if a parent made the decision not to use this vaccination because of the hysteria, and not based on sound medical decision, and their child died. All because of the hysteria.

[seabeyond]

51. it was a lousy point and shame on her using this girls death to make such a lousy

point.

you want a thread on hysteria to vaccine, there are plenty of them.

this was wrong.

[Pithlet]

56. It's not a lousy point.

Her basic premise is true. The fear of vaccines can kill. I applaud her effort. Yes, there have been plenty of threads. And no one has gotten through to many people. Maybe her way will be the one way that got through to one parent? I know. Not very likely. But who knows? If this vaccine does become more well known and wide spread, maybe one parent will think of her thread and remember the young woman that died? And they'll weigh that against the anti-vac crap when making their decision, and maybe, just maybe, reason will finally win for once, and a child won't go needlessly unprotected.

It's not genuine questioning based on real evidence that exists that bothers me. I think all parents should be as informed as possible when making any decisions regarding their child's health. A newer vaccine that a parent doesn't know much about, and their own doctor doesn't even recommend at the moment, and they want to take a wait and see approach before deciding? Absolutely. It's the general massive hysteria regarding vaccines that isn't based in any factual evidence that drives me bonkers. The one that leads parents to simply not vaccinate their child at all. You personally may not have liked the way the OP was trying to make that point. But it's not a lousy point to make. Not at all. God knows, people have tried all kinds of ways to get through. Maybe showing examples of people dying of these diseases that can be prevented is the wake-up call that's needed. Maybe, instead of trying to appeal to reason, maybe appealing to the same part of the brain that rules fear that got them to swallow the garbage about vaccines in the first place is the answer. Maybe simply a campaign about the dangers of diseases is the answer. I think I kind of like the OP's approach. I wish it would actually make a difference for once.

[seabeyond]

58. first vaccine was out in 1970's. only a very very small portion of society is effected

by this. yes, people should be informed



About 2,600 people get meningococcal disease each year in the U.S. 10 to 5 percent of these people die, in spite of treatment with antibiotics. Of those who live, another 11to19 percent lose their arms or legs, become deaf, have problems with their nervous systems, become mentally retarded, or suffer seizures or strokes.


Two meningococcal vaccines are available in the U.S.:

Meningococcal polysaccharide vaccine (M.P.S.V.4 or Menomune) has been available since the 1970s.

Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (M.C.V.4 or Menactra) was licensed in 2005.

Both vaccines can prevent 4 types of meningococcal disease, including 2 of the 3 types most common in the United States and a type that causes epidemics in Africa. Meningococcal vaccines cannot prevent all types of the disease. But they do protect many people who might become sick if they didn’t get the vaccine.

Both vaccines work well, and protect about 90 percent of those who get it. Menactra is expected to give better, longer-lasting protection.

[Pithlet]

59. Seabeyond, I'm not arguing that parents should rush out and get this vaccine.

I'm saying that if they make the decision, it should be based on thinking things out kinda like the way you're doing. Not I won't get it because all vaccines are bad because I heard it on tv/the internets that they aren't to be trusted, their makers are evil big pharma, they caused my kid to get autism, etc. The latter is simply panicked hysteria not based in fact.

[eilen]

108. My stepmother almost died from meningitis

As a child she had polio. It settled in her knees and ate her kneecaps. Later, she developed MS, (RRMS) that seemed to concentrated on her left leg when she had exacerbations.

When she got the meningitis, she almost died in the ER waiting to be seen, she coded in the ICU but was stabilized and treated with heavy duty antibiotics. While getting these meds, her left knee became very swollen and it was determined there was an infection in there (migrating bacteria?). She was discharged with home IV antibiotics. It was thought that she may have picked this meningitis bug up while taking mass transport in NYC on a visit with her daughter.

Ten years later, she has a horrible cold, cough and most likely some kind of bronchitis. She stays home from work for 2 days (highly unusual for her). The third day she wakes up with her left knee swollen and my father takes her right to the ER. This time she is not so lucky. By the time she is seen, and broad spectrum antibiotics are started, she goes into septic shock and dies at 59 years old. The autopsy did not single out a bacterium, it merely stated she died of cardio-pulmonary collapse (which was brought on by infection). They did not print the results of her blood cultures (which sometimes need to be repeated) and they had not taken an aspirate from her knee prior to her collapse. I cannot say it was meningitis that killed her vs a different bug like streptococcus. We just don't know. It was not in the hospital's interest to investigate further.

Vaccines are important because they also protect those who are immuno-compromised among us-- children, elderly, and those people who have chronic auto immune illnesses and those who are being treated for cancer and AIDS.

[mr blur]

60. It wasn't a lousy point and it wasn't wrong.

How can your country be on the edge of a new, intelligent start and still contain so many proudly ignorant, pompous people? No wonder Bush kept winning.

[seabeyond]

62. what does ANY of that have to do with this girls death? are you vaccinated

against meningitis? how many people on this board are vac against this? her death has NOTHING to do with pro or anti vac.

you can get this disease in many ways that has nothing to do with diseases vac against. which is the point of op and why op is wrong.

is SHE to blame for her death. her parents. maybe we shouldn't have empathy cause parents didn't get to hospital fast enough. can be treated if gotten to fast enough. want to blame her for that too.

[lightningandsnow]

63. I wasn't blaming anyone.

The point of me posting this was simply to show that people do die from vaccine-preventable diseases.

Not that I lack empathy or anyone is at fault here.

[seabeyond]

66. i am glad to hear, but not how it sounded.

And she died of meningitis. It killed her in a day, maybe two. It could have been easily prevented by a vaccine. And, in fact, she probably got it from someone who wasn't vaccinated.

You still think that pseudoscientific dogma is worth a 17-year-old's fucking life?

[Fireweed247]

112. I agree with you

The premise of the thread is an attack and absurd.

[Pithlet]

67. You're right. It doesn't.

Her death was not the result of the anti-vacc movement. This isn't a vaccine that is currently in widespread use, and it's not a disease that, thankfully, occurs all that often. Plenty of people don't use this vaccination, and it isn't because of the anti-vac movement. You're right.

I just think you read the OP differently. I didn't read the OP as blaming the death on the anti-vac movement. I just think it was a frustrated cry at it, saying "This is what a deadly disease that is preventable by a vaccine can do! Wake up!" But, I can see why it would be interpreted the way you did, though. I do see your point. Yes, meningitis has other causes, but because the OP knows the person, and another person close also contracted, it's safe to bet it was the contagious variety that the vaccine protects against.

[lightningandsnow]

78. Yeah, you read my intention correctly.

I don't actually know the girl who died, but several of my friends did. Just thought I should clarify that.

[Pithlet]

61. I do understand what you're saying.

It is a rare disease, and the vaccine itself isn't very widely distributed. Therefore, it doesn't make the point well in the context of the anti-vaccine argument. Her death wasn't the direct result of anti-vaccination beliefs. You're right.

[seabeyond]

65. thank you pithlet. that is all. i am NOT in this fucking going to argue at all cost

to battle the damn world on pro or anti vac side.

i have taken care of my family. i dont trust the pharm world. and i think our fda is fucked up

because i want fda to have some power... just some power to protect consumer and i dont believe they do today, doesnt mean i am anti vac

[Pithlet]

76. The FDA has considerably weakened under Bush.

Hopefully it will get beefed up again under Obama. As for not trusting the pharma world. Well, it's true. Placing our life in the hands of the medical profession isn't entirely without risk. It's a risk/benefit analysis. Few would withdraw entirely and never seek any care at all, of course. That would be extreme. The decisions about how much and when to trust should be informed, and going to either extreme could have serious consequences. That's the crux of the argument with the pro-anti vax movement. The anti-vax movement did not come from fact based evidence that there was a problem with the vaccinations. It was hysteria based on some parents who witnessed a correlation between their childs' vaccinations and onset of symptoms of autism. Despite the fact that study after study as been done and no actual link has been found, the hysteria spread and grew out of control. People are hardwired to believe that correlation equals causation. But it doesn't. And now we have a dangerous situation where years of medical advance could be undone. And that's bad. It's why the arguments get so heated, seabeyond. But the fact is, one side is based on science and facts. The other is not. That's really what it boils down to. Those on the anti side would respond to me by railing at me, and calling me a sheep for following the establishment.

I'm a parent of a child with autism; my older son. No one knows more than I do how hard it is to come to grips with that, and to want to point to something, anything as the definitive cause. That's what gave this movement such power to begin with. It would be extremely hard to not read their stories, and not be moved, and then to not be suddenly concerned for your own children. I'm not surprised at all that this gained the traction it did, and that it still persists so much today. I became aware of it when I was pregnant with my older son. It was scary. It is true that the symptoms becomes more apparent around the time the vaccines are given. But the fact that no study has shown the link is too big to ignore. And to think that it's some conspiracy implicates too many people to be plausible. It's still true that not everything is known about autism and what causes it. But so far, evidence still points to genetics as being a factor. I've read reams on this. That's where the science is pointing. The case for environment should not be disregarded out of hand, but as of now the evidence just isn't there. Bottom line, it makes absolutely no sense at all to refuse vaccinations with a known safety and efficacy and place a child at risk based on what amounts to pseudoscience started by a movement based on hysteria, and the choice hurts us all, which is why the debate gets so heated.

[seabeyond]

81. i just dont know.

i just dont.

i hear what you say. i have read on it too and i do not have the faith and confidence that there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the vacs dont play into it. i read also where countries refuse to give the mumps and measles close together. we give them at the same time.

i dont know what the answer is

my oldest son too has a low level of autism. i got him the shots and it was late into the night, i checked on him and he was doing autistic behavior. i called husband in and we watched. he wouldnt break focus. two years old.

i had never seen him behave like this prior, not one iota. i didnt know any theory on vacs and autism, nothing until a handful of years later. so i was not conditioned to put them together.

yet i saw what i did

i have also found certain times the last couple years the escalation of what i call "fuzzy brain" with him. i paid attention, it was on rare occassion i made tuna casserole. recently i started watching the behavior with fish we have bought. cod really effected him months ago. i looked cod up and it was high in mercury.

other fishes dont bother him

i bought cod for this week and gonna watch again

i dont have your confidence and assurance.

i also know i dont know

and he sure is fun, good, a joy and just tripply odd. we love him how he is.

but then it took him until working on 14 to get in a good place with his oddity.

[Pithlet]

96. I'm not going to tell you that your own personal observations

and feelings about your own child are wrong, seabeyond. I don't really blame any parent who saw the change, and noted it right around the time they got the vaccinations, and immediately had questions. It's not as though I immediately rushed to the defense of vaccines, myself. I immediately wondered about it when I started reading about these parent's stories, in the beginning. But, at some point, we (and I mean the collective we, not you. I really don't blame you personally for your feelings on this, nor any parent of an autistic child who has suspicions, really) have to acquiesce to overwhelming evidence. If there were a direct link to the vaccines, there would be something that would point to that link, by now. Because, like I said, it makes no logical sense to trade a known risk for a slight maybe risk that isn't backed by any known solid evidence, and is only based on a correlative link that was blown into a panicked hysteria.

Quite simply, the parents who make the decision to not vaccinate aren't thinking it through with all the evidence available and are giving appropriate weight to the risks involved. As a parent with an autistic child, I tell them. Get your kids vaccinated. It's worth the non-existent risk you'll have a kid like mine.

Mine is a joy, too. Tripply odd. I'd describe my son that way, too. His teachers and other caregivers always tell me how much he makes them laugh every day. He's fun, even if it can be a challenge at times. It was a long road, and a lot of hard work, but it's been worth every bit of it. :)

[Fireweed247]

116. I trust your parental intuition and observations.

I have read many stories like yours, and for parents who have witnessed this first hand it is impossible for them to ignore the obvious. That is why so many parents feel so strongly about getting the word out about the negative consequences of vaccines, only to be insulted by people who blindly believe the medical INDUSTRY who stands to lose a lot of money if this truth were exposed.

[Hannah Bell]

99. um, no it's not. vaccine coverage, in absolute numbers, as % of vaccination-age kids,

& of total population, is at its highest levels for all recommended vaccines.

CDC is the source of this historic data (current to Q2 2007).

% = percent of vaccination-age children vaccinated with MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) in that year.
() = the number of cases of measles that year.


1967: 60% (62,705)

1970: 58.4% (47,351)

1975: 65.5% (24,374)

1980: 66.6% (13,506)

1985: 61.2% (2,822)

1991: 82% (9,643)

1992: 82.5% (2,237)

1993: 84.1% (312)

1994: 89% (963)

1995: 87.6% (309)

1996: 90.7% (508)

1997: 90.5% (138)

1998: 92% (100)

1999: 91.5% (100)

2000: 90.5% (86)

2001: 91.4% (116)

2002: 91.6% (44)

2003: 93% (56)

2004: 93% (37)

2005: 91.5% (66)

2006: 92.4% (55)

2007: (92.4% to Q2 07) (30) (42 in revision)

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/...
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/...
http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/coverage/nis/nis_...

[K8-EEE]

40. Calling BS on your premise

My daughter just got the meningitis vaccine when she started college this year. Which was required and which we had no problem with

So if she would have got the disease last year in HS it would be because somebody was a "vaccine hater?"

I AM skeptical about some vaccines (she did opt out of Guardisil) but that does not make either of us "vaccine haters."

[earth mom]

41. I'm sorry for your loss. But I think you don't understand that those who question vaccinations

are actually questioning the numerous amount of vaccinations given by age 2 as well as the Mercury preservative that is still in many of vaccination and the effect of that Mercury on developing infant/toddler brains.


Jenny McCarthy said it best here:


Many people aren't aware that in the 1980s our children received only 10 vaccines by age 5, whereas today they are given 36 immunizations, most of them by age 2. With billions of pharmaceutical dollars, could it be possible that the vaccine program is becoming more of a profit engine then a means of prevention?

We believe autism is an environmental illness. Vaccines are not the only environmental trigger, but we do think they play a major role. If we are going to solve this problem and finally start to reverse the rate of autism, we need to consider changing the vaccine schedule, reducing the number of shots given and removing certain ingredients that could be toxic to some children.

We take into account that some children have reactions to medicines like penicillin, for example, yet when it comes to vaccines we are operating as if our kids have a universal tolerance for them. We are acting like ONE SIZE FITS ALL. That is, at the very least, a huge improbability.

<snip>

We wish to state, very clearly, that we are not against all vaccines, but we do believe there is strong evidence to suggest that some of the ingredients may be hazardous and that our children are being given too many, too soon!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/02/mccarthy.autsimtreatment/index.html

http://www.generationrescue.org/vaccines.html

[Pithlet]

44. Ugh, Jenny McCarthy.

Not all parents with children on the autism spectrum share her views on autism, its causes and how it should be treated. Thank god for that.

[Occam Bandage]

48. Yeah, Jenny McCarthy is more trustworthy than the World Health Organization. You dumbass. nt

[semillama]

54. You do realize that Jenny McCarthy is NOT an authority on vaccination?

She also believes in Indigo Children amongst other illogical things.

Here's a good discussion of the many ways Generation Rescue and their celebrity spokespeople are dead wrong:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/11/cries_the_antivaccinationist_why_are_we.php

And also:
http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=390

"The thought process is clear. McCarthy is convinced that vaccines cause autism, and did so in the specific case of her son. The medical evidence disagrees with her belief, as does the FDA, the CDC, the Institute of Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, The World Health Organization, and the vast majority of relevant experts. This does not give her the slightest pause, however. Rather than reexamine her conclusions or genuinely try to understand the position of those who disagree with her, she readily believes that she simply knows better than the world experts, and further, that they must be corrupt and greedy to the point that they will knowingly harm children to line their pockets. This conviction then fills her with self-righteous anger.

It is simply inconceivable to her that perhaps, just maybe, she might be wrong.

Lacking the ability to entertain such a proposition, McCarthy is descending steadily into the depths of pseudoscience and conspiracy theories. The world doesn’t agree with me, she reasons - it must be a conspiracy (it can’t be that I’m wrong). How deep does this conspiracy go? All the way."

[Posteritatis]

55. Ahh, but she is when you move the goal posts

First step for determining who's an authority in the wooösphere: anyone who disagrees with your premise obviously isn't one, and any yokel blogger or activist with a book deal is. With that step out of the way, your typical ninth-grade homeschoolee who hates vaccinations because mommy and daddy told him to is a more irrefutable source than the World Health Organization or Center for Disease Control.

[earth mom]

68. Jenny McCarthy is a parent of a child with Autism who worked her ass off to recover her child.

Which is something the FDA, CDC, World Health Organization, etc., have NEVER tried to do, nor do they give a flying fuck if any of these kids with Autism get better or not.

I'll take Jenny's way any day over the BULLSHIT & LIES of those do nothing organizations who only serve to uphold the status quo & protect themselves and their cronies, rather than find solutions & answers and actually HELP people. :puke:

[lightningandsnow]

70. Why must people with disabilities always work to become "normal"?

And why do we consider disability a "disease" to be eradicated?

Social model of disability. The impairments themselves are not nearly as limiting as societal attitudes. Might be an interesting perspective to read more about.

[earth mom]

79. Recovery is not about becoming "normal" or finding a "cure".

Recovery is about helping to bring Autistic kids up to a level where they can participate in the world and communicate with other people.

[seabeyond]

83. there are lots of different thing and tools to give child that makes the world just a little

easier.

they will never be normal.

but it is fun when they get to the place that they like their non normality. cause i swear, what he isnt in norm, he has gifts in oddity

low level. so i dont have nearly the challenge ... not at all making less for children that have greater struggle, but it does give me empathy

[earth mom]

87. Exactly-it's all about making their lives easier and better.

That people don't understand or care about that simple fact just blows my mind.

[seabeyond]

90. doesnt it. so cruel on the internet. can say whatever ugly they want

ya. i get surprised, every time.

[earth mom]

94. I never knew how cruel and nasty people could be until I started going to forums like this one

for about the past 5 years or so.

Yep, it's been quite the eye opener and it absolutely disgusts me.

If I wasn't so stubborn & pissed off by the b.s. and disinformation, I would have given up on all of this a long time ago!

[crimsonblue]

72. Note to Jenny McCarthy:

It wasn't a vaccine that gave her kid autism. It was her (or the baby daddy's) shitty genes that gave it to the kid.

[earth mom]

80. So that explains the Autism epidemic, eh?!

:eyes:

[crimsonblue]

89. the "epidemic" was created by better recognition by parents and doctors.

Having better trained professionals looking for any and all peculiarities in a child will make incidences of autism go up .

[earth mom]

91. Wrong. Autism was extremely RARE in the past. Do your research. nt

[crimsonblue]

93. It was "Rare" because it wasn't diagnosed...

this argument is going to keep being circular. The vitriol "vaccines gave my johhny autism" crowd will never accept that their own bad genes gave their kids autism.

[Pithlet]

97. Yeah, and the way you're wording things isn't helping.

At all.

[Feron]

100. In the past, I would've been labeled as being..

demon possessed for exhibiting autistic traits. Or labeled schizophrenic or some other psychological label.

Absence of people being labeled autistic in the past does not mean that they did not exist.

[earth mom]

104. I'm not talking about kids with Aspergers, which is what I'm guessing you have.

What I'm talking about is kids with Autism who can't speak, who live in their own world and who need constant and vigilant care by their caregivers.

Believe me, these kids would have stood out years ago if they existed in the numbers they exist in today.

There is an Autism epidemic happening right now, make no mistake.

[seabeyond]

92. that isnt true. there is just too many nuerological problems with kids today.

doctors, schools... we all talk about it. and it is clear to us parents that are hands on with all these children.

dont want it to be vaccines, fine, but what you say isnt true

[lightningandsnow]

95. I have a "neurological problem"

(a learning disability), and, while I think there have always been people that think and experience the world like I do, recognition of learning disabilities, autism, and the like has gone up significantly in the last few years.

40 years ago, someone like me would have just been considered lazy or unintelligent.

[conscious evolution]

98. Wrong

Look up the tthread from the last couple of days about the study that came out.It clearly shows a rise not linked to mis diagnosis or changing diagnostic criteria.

[Fireweed247]

117. BULLSHIT!

Have you been to a school lately to see how many special needs children there are these days? There is an epidemic and denial will do nothing to solve it. Something is going on and we need to look at prevention.

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. If you're gonna fail, do so spectacularly.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=autism-rise-driven-by-environment

[Pithlet]

82. Her way can actually cause more harm. In fact, it can kill.

At best, it can steer parents away from treatment and care that can actually do their child some good. At worst, it can kill them. Chelation, for example. I have nothing but contempt for the people that have preyed on parents like Jenny McCarthy and have exploited their desperation to convince them that their quackery works. What a coup for them that they hooked celebrity like Jenny McCarthy, so now they have a mouthpiece to spread their quackery even further and sway even more desperate parents. :puke: indeed.

[Feron]

101. Jenny McCarthy subjected her child to quack "cures".

Autistic children, especially the higher functioning ones, often improve functioning on their own without any intervention.

And if chelation, vitamins, or special diets worked, then those treatments would be mainstream. Unfortunately for the advocates of those unconvential treatments, there is no evidence supporting their efficacy. Jenny's way IS bullshit and lies.

There is no autism recovery. Even if functioning improves, the autism doesn't go away.

http://autism-myths.org/

http://www.stopjenny.com/

[earth mom]

105. Talk to parents other than Jenny McCarthy who have recovered their kids and then get back to us. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. I'm fly over on my purple elephant to ask such parents.

[Fireweed247]

115. Instead of attacking her....

Why don't you talk about what she said?...


"Many people aren't aware that in the 1980s our children received only 10 vaccines by age 5, whereas today they are given 36 immunizations, most of them by age 2. With billions of pharmaceutical dollars, could it be possible that the vaccine program is becoming more of a profit engine then a means of prevention?"


The schedule for giving children vaccines is done for the time convenience of the doctor, not in the best interests of the children. And where does it end, shall we do whatever the doctors tell us, not matter how many they add on? Should DUers really just follow doctor's orders without question or personal research? Does anyone here really believe that everything our medical industry does is for our best interests?

[Pithlet]

43. I know. But there's really no arguing with them.

You can't change their mind, no matter how hard you try, and you're probably going to get attacked for your effort. I know that it's sad and frustrating, but there's no reasoning with what basically amounts to hysteria. I really should have stayed out of the damn chicken pox party thread but it was late and I was hopped up on cold medicine.

I'm really sorry for your friend's loss :( It's very sad.

[crimsonblue]

73. Personally, I'd take the "risk" of autism or whatnot

over the possibility of death. Plus, real science has never shown a definitive link between vaccines and autism (Eli Stone and Jenny McCarthy do not count).

[seabeyond]

74. you understand it is not the vaccine they are complaing about. it is therma something

from mercury that is in all the shots for longer shelf life.

not the opposition to the vaccine themselves.

so

you would prefer autism so pharm co.'s can have a larger profit?

that is generous of you

and STILL... that has nothing ot do with this thread.

[crimsonblue]

77. nice slippery slope argument.

And, yeah, I'd rather have kids with autism than have dead kids. It is completely irresponsible parenting to fore go vaccinations. Vaccines need to be a mandate for all children.

[seabeyond]

85. and AGAIN, not many are arguing NO vaccination so makes your whole argument

irrelevant. huh.

take the shit out. not needed. only there for profit of company.

[crimsonblue]

88. lmfao. like you know the processes involved in making vaccines

how about you study biology, pathology, and virology and get back to me on that.

[Fireweed247]

119. And we should mandate all care that a doctor suggests.

If a doctor, the FDA or any federal organization tells you to do something- Do it dammit! It is for your own good-don't ask questions!
We should also incarcerate people that eat bacon, sausage and ice cream. It is unhealthy to be overweight so those people should have their stomach stapled forcibly. It is totally irresponsible to allow children to play video games and watch TV (probably more detrimental to society at large than not having immunizations)so those children should be removed from their homes and placed in foster care.

Do you know how many people die from medical mistakes and irresponsibility every year, from drugs that should never have been prescribed or made it past the FDA at all...but by all means trust everything that the medical industry tells you. In my opinion though, that is the height of irresponsibility.

[Feron]

102. The preservative is NOT in childhood vaccines.

It is in the flu vaccine, but there is an alternative.

Furthermore, studies have shown that the preservative is no responsible for autism.

[trotsky]

109. And the best proof thimerosal wasn't the factor?

Autism rates continuing to climb years after it was removed from all those mandatory vaccines. Of course we knew this already, since Denmark and Japan had removed thimerosal years before the US did, but the results were the same there. No decrease in autism. It is unfortunate how "immune" the anti-vax movement is to facts.

[seabeyond]

110. what is truly unfortunate is 8 yrs of lies and an inability for consumer to trust

our fda, medical field and pharmaceutical companies.

it is not like we all woke up one morning and said, you know, today is a good day to not believe what we are told by these people.

that is what is truly unfortunate.

then there are people on this board that refuse to factor this in with people, which like those other areas, leaves them unable to get their message out cause they refuse to allow a major factor into the equation in order to resolve.

sorry i dont trust. not something i can poof away. and i dont trust.

[Fireweed247]

124. yes, it is not our fault we cannot trust the FDA, medical field and pharmaceutical companies.

And anyone who does blindly trust what they are told hasn't been paying attention!

[seabeyond]

125. thats how i see it.

the really funny is du as a whole doesnt trust fda, govt, or pharm co. on any other issue. only vaccine.

btw

thanks for your post above. i dont know for sure, but i know what i saw.

[uppityperson]

75. People die from vaccine preventable diseases.

That is what I take from your OP and I agree. Having spent time and money contributing and working towards getting vaccines available to kids who wouldn't otherwise, I definitely agree.

Just because there have not been high risks here, doesn't mean they don't work but the opposite.

[merh]

84. one of my best friend's daughter died from that strain of meningitis

it killed her in less that 72 hours, she thought she had a bad hang over after drinking a good bit at a party. She was a freshman in college. By the time the friends got her to the hospital, it was too late to do much. Mom had to fly in from another state, then they turned the machines off.

Vaccinate against that strain of meningitis, it is awful and there is a vaccine to protect your children.

[sakabatou]

86. I got something what the docs thought was meningitis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_disseminated_encephalomyelitis

ADEM. It's a duzy of a disease. I still have scars, literally, from it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. I enjoy these threads.

There are a lot of people who post on DU that are, to put it bluntly, mentally disturbed.

Some are just kind of weird and eccentric. Some are just dangerously fucking nuts.

These threads let you know who the really, really stupid DUers are.

[Fireweed247]

120. Oh I agree

There are some at DU that actually want the government to become more fascist than it already is, making it illegal to not follow doctor's orders :yoiks: and attacking people for daring to think for themselves or question the medical industry :crazy:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Case in point.

:thumbsup:

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. I was thinking the very same thing.

Projection much?

[Kitty Herder]

107. Few people get vaccinated for meningitis before college.

Do you know that her parents were vaccine haters, or was it just that she, like most high school students, hadn't yet had that vaccine?

eta: I want to be clear that I'm a big believer in vaccines myself. It's a shame that this girl hadn't been vaccinated. Maybe meningitis needs to be on the regular childhood vaccination schedule.