White Phosporus has been illegal since 1980?

[floridablue]

"willie pete", as it was called in Vietnam was pretty commonly used. And now it is not humane ?
So what is the Nuke shell they are using today ? Dirtying up the sands of Iraq, and already killing future generations ? Have we progressed?

[BlooInBloo]

1. Take it to the crazyforum.

[chucktaylor]

2. Nuke shell? Are you talking about DIME munitions?

[Idealism]

3. Much in the US has regressed since the 1970s and 80s

Take for example worker wages, union membership, moral standing in the world... the list goes on.

But look at all the great things we made progress on! Torture, rendition, our national debt, breaking international laws and treaties (Bush is especially fond of withdrawing past President's signatures on the latter), and the amount of people we throw in jail.

U-S-A, U-S-A!:patriot::headbang::patriot::headbang::patriot:

[happyslug]

4. It has been viewed as a war crime to drop WP on people since WWII

In Vietnam it was used, as the Israelis are claiming here, that it is being used only on material. Yes, you can burn equipment with WP including housing, if that is the intent, the use of WP has never been a war crime. On the other hand, if the intent to is burn people it is a cruel and unusual way to do so and is thus illegal. High explosives can kill better and more "humanly". I know any form of killing can be inhuman, but this is one of the area where a line is drawn by the International community.

Napalm (Gelled Gasoline) is another weapon used to burn areas. Extensively used in the South Pacific, Korea and Vietnam. Now replaced by Air Fuel Munitions (Similar in Nature) but the purpose of Napalm, like WP was to set fires. A secondary reason to use Napalm was to burn the oxygen in a tunnel, or cave, so that the soldiers in the cave would die of a lack of oxygen as opposed to being burned to death. Flame Throwers were also intended for this mission, from what can be determined from the remains of the soldiers found in caves hit by Napalm and flame throwers most Soldiers died of a lack of Oxygen well before any flame reached them.

Flame is an important weapon in war, but it is NOT to be used directly on people. In modern Warfare they is no purpose to do so, they are more human ways that are more effective to kill people out in the open. Unless you are talking about dug in locations, flame weapons are of marginal use (and today, with the ability to shoot hand held rockets filled with "Air Fuel Munitions" into caves etc, even the Flame Thrower is obsolete, but the concept of using flame is alive and well. The criminal act is using them directly on people, there is no justification for that in modern warfare.

[cliffordu]

5. I think airborne illumination flares and

those starburst evasion devices pooting out of the back of the helicopters are made of burning magnesium....

If I were going to drop fire on a populated area, that's what I'd use. Geneva convention and all...

I don't know if doctors in a burn ward would know the difference in burn patterns.

Or, if there IS any difference in burn patterns for that matter.

[TahitiNut]

6. Our perimeter defense bunkers in Nam were well-equipped with magnesium flares

We had a dozen or two mag flares (bottom-poppers), a plentiful array of claymores preset in concrete, our M60 machine gun, our M79 grenade launcher (with HE frag and buckshot rounds) and, of course, our individual M16s.

I suppose, if I'd run out of M79 rounds, I might've thought about using a mag flare ... but the M79 was far more effective. (It 'could' be used in direct-fire mode.)

[cliffordu]

7. I loved my M79.

I wish I had one and about 30 shotgun shells for it.

home defense and all...

:rofl:


I got drunk and popped an enemy encounter flare over an Officer's club some fucking place near Danang.....


No one paid the slightest bit of attention. Never have figured out why.

[TahitiNut]

8. Well .... yup. One night in particular. (2/23/69)

I didn't use any buckshot rounds (thankfully) ... but, as I think about having to go OUTSIDE of that nice, comfy, roofed-over, and screened bunker to that side bunker ... well, it brings back a memory of that warm, wet feeling in the crotch of my pants. (A released bladder is probably God's way of saying "you're no movie hero.")

I recall popping one of those flares that night. (We had to call on the field phone and get permission.) It also necessitated a "step outside." All hell broke loose. Long night -- most of which I just can't (won't) remember anymore.



The 40th Anniversary is coming up. Happy New Year.

[cliffordu]

10. Nice view. 40 years? Fuck we're getting old.....

Here's the nice tower where I spent my tour over on the right . Long climb down.




The glamor shot close up:

[TahitiNut]

12. Yeah ... the sunrises were fucking awesome.

That photo was facing east, just before sunrise ... the bunker was on the southern perimeter of Long Binh Post.



I guess a lot of the beauty was just making it through another night. I loved seeing the family arrive (often with their water buffalo) to work the rice paddies on the other side of the road. ("You're not in Kansas anymore, GI.") The morning peace was welcomed and embraced -- almost like being in church and praying 'thanks'. Clearly, the morning after that night (2/23/69) didn't bring with it the same feelings. (It brought napalm ... on the far ridge line.)

That tower looks a bit like a couple we had at the Heliport. (I was never up in them, though.) I see what looks like the rivetments we had for the choppers there, too.

[cliffordu]

13. yep - I was in the depot that stripped all the usable parts out of downed choppers

and refurbed them or shipped them home. The revetments protected the repair jobs......

I was supposed to be a helicopter mechanic, but they realized I'd shot third highest in my basic training batallion and bada boom, I was in the tower with an M-14 and a scope. And an M-79 for shits and giggles.

I had a talent with that rifle.


Nights were fucked up for sure. We had some of the very first generation night vision gear, - a starlight scope it looked like a pirate's spyglass, three feet long and about 35 lbs....Everything was blurry and looked like really bad yellow infrared camera footage.

On our nights off we'd climb on top of the water tower and smoke and watch the airstrikes up the Hai Van pass.

[TahitiNut]

14. There, but for the Grace of G-d, went me.

Despite a URI and a 104 degree temperature, I qualified highest in Basic ... Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, Misery. (I was hospitalized later that day and packed in ice to bring down my temp.) I hardly remember it. Strangely, firing the M14 on the range was the only part of basic I liked. I vaguely remember getting handed other weapons ... and having to fire at different distances. My 'Expert' clasp had two bars on it. I have no idea what happened to that. (Thank G-d.)

[Obamanaut]

22. During the period of 68 - 71 I flew in EC 121 acft, with stops in Da Nang

and Chu Lai. "Some say" that on stopovers in Sangley Pt, RP, San Miguel Painted Label would be put aboard the acft for delivery to the Da Nang Staff NCO club. I can neither confirm nor deny this story, but the NCOs who frequented that club seemed to welcome members of my squadron.

[cliffordu]

24. Hmm.....

:patriot:

[Obamanaut]

25. San Miquel painted label was a beer, bottled in Manilla, with the

label painted on rather than a paper label. If ice cold really good, if warm not so much.

[happyslug]

9. magnesium and flares rarely cause injuries to the whole body, WP does

Furthermore Flares and Magnesium flares have parachute attached to them to keep them up as long as possible, people can see them and avoid them. On the Ground they can still burn, but people can see them or avoid (Unless they fall right on them i.e. the person of the flare, then the person may be burned). AP and Napalm are design to open up as a fire right on the target. You can NOT avoid being hit by it. It is like a shell going off, to close you will get hit and there is nothing you can do about it.

When I was shooting flares and WP in practice, it was fun. The Flares could be seen for miles and just float down. WP we fired mostly in daylight and if we saw it, all we saw was a flash as it burned. WP can NOT be avoided once it is aimed at you, it is a weapon of destruction. People hit with WP know it from the time they are hit and for many months (if not years) afterward. It is the totality of the damage that shows the difference, the difference between you clothes all burned off, your skin all burned etc compared to have a burn on your hand where you stupidly grabbed the flare (Or fell on it is some accident during a night move).

[cliffordu]

11. I was talking about the new evasion flares the helicopters are using -

They burst just behind the aircraft and actually burn all the way to the ground - I remarked to my wife the other day that they seemed to burn for a lot longer than anything I had ever seen in country. Bigger, too, like twenty times the size of those little hand held flares we got.


EDIT: This is not to say they aren't using WP cause I don't know. - If they are, war crimes trials should ensue.

[14thColony]

15. IR radiant flares

to decoy IR passive homing missiles like SA-7 or Redeye. Since they're designed to be used higher up, they will often still be burning when they hit the ground if used from lower altitude. They will cause fires on the ground, as our C-130s kept demonstrating flying in an out of Tuzla in Bosnia in the mid-90s. They had their systems set up for auto detect/auto deploy, which was often accidentally triggered on the way in to Tuzla airport, causing fires on the ground a couple of times.

I would suspect Israeli aircraft are flying in auto detect/auto deploy mode, and junk signals are causing their systems to fire off flares. Pilots would be reluctant to switch to 'manual' mode because for that to work you have to 1) detect the launch visually, 2) mash the button desperately to try to get as many flares out as possible in the 2-3 seconds you now have left, then 3) still have time to maneuver the aircraft off the axis of attack, because if you don't maneuver the flares may not help you. Even step 1 isn't a sure thing.

[happyslug]

16. I believe the Israelis have turned them off completely, Hamas does NOT have AA missiles

The heaviest thing I have heard that Hamas have are Mortars and their home made rockets. The Home made rockers have no heat detector so ineffective against Aircraft (Except at close range at slow helicopters, like RPGs being used against Helicopters).

My point is such anti-heat seeking missile defense is NOT needed by the IDF in Gaza, thus can be turned off in Gaza (And why we are hearing of my Air Attacks in Gaza then we did in Lebanon when the IDF went against Hezbollah, who has access to such missiles).

Now a AA hand held missiles is just a bit larger then an RPG, but the real key is the price, RPG rockets cost less then $100 each, AA Missiles 100 times that figure (That heat seeking warhead does cost money).

As to AA weapons I have NOT even heard that Hamas has 20mm or 23 mm AA guns, in fact I have NOT heard them having .50 caliber Machine guns. Remember Israel has been able to control what goes into the Gaza Strip since the 1967 war, and heavy weapons are hard to smuggle in. I would NOT be surprised if Hamas has some heat seeking missiles, 50 caliber Machine guns, and 23 mm AA guns, but nothing heavier, and the number of such weapons very limited. HAMAS would thus keep them in reserve, but sooner or later HAMAS would be under pressure to use them and would have used them sometime in the last two weeks if HAMAS had them. Thus the longer this war goes on, the less likely such missiles will be used in Gaza.

[14thColony]

23. I generally concur

1. Their artillery rockets (not the RPGs) would be useless against aircraft, even hovering helicopters. Golden BB to the 10th power for one to hit an aircraft.

2. I would seriously doubt they'd turn the counter-measure systems off. Few pilots will stake their life on the squadron intel guy's word that the other side doesn't have SAMs.

3. What's the harm in leaving them on? Flares are cheap and accidental discharges only burn up Palestinian stuff, so who cares? (sarcasm here)

4. Shoulder-fired SAMs are way cheaper than you think, especially first-gen stuff like the SA-7/Strela-2, which I've seen for as cheap as $500 per unit, which is a gripstock and two loaded launch tubes. Is it too much for me to buy one and claim it's for home defense?

5. If HAMAS has no shoulder-fired SAMs it's only because they don't want any. In most of the world they're only slightly harder to get than an STD. Hell, al-Shabaab in Somalia has freaking SA-18s for God's sake! Who knows? Maybe they shot one or two. But the older they are the better you have to be trained to use them. The SA-7 is a finicky little cuss.

6. I would be surprised if HAMAS didn't have some 12.7mm or 14.5mm heavy AAMGs, but it's a moot point. Of little practical use against fixed-wing, and IAF Apaches (and maybe Cobras) are armored against those rounds.

Bottom line is IAF owns the sky and can do what they want. If some flares drop on some Palestinians, I doubt they lose any sleep. But I do tend to think these are accidental discharges.

Now the white phosphorous rounds are a WHOLE nother world. That's bad and wrong and bad and criminal and bad and inhuman.

[kentuck]

18. White Phosphorous immediately eats thru to the bones,,

when coming in contact with your skin. I do not recall eve seeing it used in Vietnam?? Napalm was the acceptable substitute. IN fact, we were taught in basic at Ft Campbell that it was against the Geneva Convention or something?

[mod mom]

17. BBC: "permitted in battle in cases where there were no civilians near the target area"

White phosphorus is highly flammable and ignites on contact with oxygen. If the substance hits someone's body, it will burn until deprived of oxygen.

Globalsecurity.org, a defence website, says: "Phosphorus burns on the skin are deep and painful... These weapons are particularly nasty because white phosphorus continues to burn until it disappears... it could burn right down to the bone."

A spokesman at the UK Ministry of Defence said the use of white phosphorus was permitted in battle in cases where there were no civilians near the target area

-snip

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm

DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THE CASE IN GAZA. :mad:

[Winterblues]

20. Our perimeters in Vietnam were surrounded with anti-personnel Foo-gas

Very similar to napalm they were fifty five gallon drums (shaped charge) filled with a mixture of gelled gasoline and JP-4 aviation fuel. These were placed at about every fifty yards around our perimeter. They were designed to kill/burn human beings as the area had already been cleard of anything that could burn.

[Obamanaut]

19. To all vets of all conflicts: Welcome home. nt

edited to include all vets, not just the ones in this thread

[cliffordu]

21. Thanks.

Right back at ya.

:patriot: