"Chicken Pox Parties"- have all the kid's friends over to get it over with and avoid vaccinations

[underpants]

Report: Chicken Pox Parties Continue 45-Year Rampage

by Matt Haber on January 12, 2009
http://www.observer.com/mobile/article/81088

In a feature by Kate Torgovnick headlined "Inside New York Chicken Pox Parties," we learn that, according to the article's subhead, "A growing number of New York parents are scheduling chicken pox playdates where kids share lollipops and trade germy pajamas to spread the disease and avoid vaccinations. But is it an ill-advised idea?"

Good question. Also, is it really growing?

You're Invited To Get Chicken Pox, The Today Show, March 21, 2007.
CHICKEN POX PARTIES. Kids spread the illness to avoid vaccine, by Tracy Conner, The New York Daily News, August 20, 2006.
Docs Pan 'Pox Parties', John Easterbrook, CBS News, September 30, 2005.
A Pox On Your House? Please Call! Chicken pox parties may be back in vogue, by Valerie Soe, The SF Gate, January 29, 2004.
The return of 'pox parties', by Hilary Shenfeld, The Daily Herald, January 14, 2002.
You're invited to: chickenpox party! (no gifts, please), by Dan Nephin, Associated Press, October 19, 2001.
The Chicken Pox Party (book), by Sharon Dennis Wyeth and Heidi Petach, Bantam Books, 1990.
The Chicken-pox Party (book), by Delia Huddy, Nicole Goodwin, Hamilton, 1973.
Boy with Chicken Pox Still Has Birthday Party, The Hartford Courant, June 1, 1964.

------
From two of the links listed above

CHICKEN POX PARTIES. Kids spread the illness to avoid vaccine
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2006/08/20/2006-08-20_chicken_pox_parties__kids_sp.html
Chicken pox is a rarity in New York these days - with just over 1,000 cases in school-age children in 2005 - thanks to a vaccine that is required for admission to day care or school.

But chicken pox parties like the one Takemoto hosted are increasingly popular among parents who believe the vaccine is ineffective, short-lived or unsafe, while the actual disease is relatively harmless.

Docs Pan 'Pox Parties'
Warn Of Risks Of Intentionally Trying To Get Kids To Catch Chicken Pox
Sept. 30, 2005
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/30/health/webmd/main893102.shtml
"In a time when we have the chicken pox vaccine available — one of the safest vaccines we have ever had, and one that works very well — there is no point in exposing your child to the natural infection," Gershon tells WebMD.

Surprisingly, pox parties are popping up in neighborhoods in several U.S. cities. On Internet bulletin boards and blogs, rumors spread that the chicken pox vaccine is somehow unsafe or ineffective. Parents worried by these rumors join email rings. When one of these parents' children gets chicken pox, the parents invite others in the community to a pox party.
A Dangerous Recipe

A "natural mothering" web site gives a recipe for spreading varicella zoster virus — the chicken pox germ. It advises parents to pass a whistle from the infected child to other children.

[Shardik]

1. that is just... REALLY WEIRD!

I can't believe that. Why not have polio parties?

[SoCalDem]

11. In 1978 my neighborhood did just that

It was a great way to get chicken pox over with in one fell swoop.. A whole bunch of itchy kids at once was better than months of them, a few at a time..:)

[Shardik]

20. They didn't have a vaccine for chicken pox then, did they?

I really am not sure when the vaccine came out.

[SoCalDem]

33. That was well before the vaccine..and we Moms were tired

of the one at a time routing..so we had a big ole kaffeklatsche with homemade goodies and about 35 kids from 3-8 running around..

There were a few hardy ones who did not catch them, but most of the kids did:)

[Mind_your_head]

67. self-delete

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

104. "There were a few hardy ones"

OMG that cracks me up. I must have been one of the hardy ones, never had it.

But my daughter got it in the summer when she was about 11 or 12, unfortunately
right before the week she was going to the beach with a girlfriend and family.
Miserable.

We got the oatmeal bath stuff, I can't remember what else we did, I just can't remember.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

105. "There were a few hardy ones"

OMG that cracks me up. I must have been one of the hardy ones, never had it.

But my daughter got it in the summer when she was about 11 or 12, unfortunately
right before the week she was going to the beach with a girlfriend and family.
Miserable.

We got the oatmeal bath stuff, I can't remember what else we did, I just can't remember.

[SoCalDem]

144. One neighbor had FIVE kids, and only 4 got it

My son had 5 "spots".. on on each butt-cheek, and 3 on his chest..

We used calamine too.. :)

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

122. Why the chicken pox vaccine isn't available in the UK

Why isn’t the chickenpox vaccine available in the UK?

The chickenpox vaccine is now licensed in the UK but it is not part of routine childhood vaccinations.

The vaccine against the varicella virus (which causes chickenpox) is not currently recommended for standard use in children.

In most cases it is a mild illness and around 89% of adults in the UK will develop immunity to the illness.

If the chickenpox vaccine were to be added to the list of childhood vaccinations, it is feared that there would be a greater number of cases of shingles in adults, until the vaccination was given to the entire population. This is because adults who have had chickenpox as a child are less likely to have shingles in later life if they have been exposed occasionally to the chickenpox virus (for example by their children). This is because the exposure acts as a booster vaccine.

NHS Choices is owned by the Department of Health. The site is governed by the NHS Choices Board and NHS Choices Operations Board, which watch over future developments, budgets and data quality of NHS Choices.

[Hannah Bell]

130. interesting.

[BalancedGoat]

134. Gary S. Goldman did a study that supports that theory.

Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic

Very little is as simple as it first seems.

[Pithlet]

137. Associated. Not the direct cause of.

The epidemic is primarily among the elderly, not the children getting the vaccinations. The theory is the elderly get more cases of it because they aren't being exposed to more children getting chicken pox, because the children are getting vaccinations. The theory is the additional exposure triggers the relapse of the virus the received as children themselves, hence the shingles.

[Pithlet]

136. That doesn't say the chicken pox vaccine isn't available

Or that it's dangerous. It just says it's not part of the routine childhood vaccinations. So what? It is here. That's why it doesn't make sense to take part in the stupid chicken pox parties. I guess they can do chicken pox parties in the UK if they want to. I, for one, am glad the US does include it here. I really don't give a flip that the UK doesn't. Japan did it for years before we did. It's possible the UK is just further behind.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

263. it actually says" Why isn’t the chickenpox vaccine available in the UK? "

from the website.

[greguganus]

171. It sucks that I had both. n/t

[HamdenRice]

213. I've seen chicken-pox related shingles in an elderly adult and it's terrifying

nothing like chicken pox.

There is no need to keep chicken pox around to prevent shingles, however. They could just develop an adult booster.

[Roon]

252. I was 22 with a severe case of shingles

of course I was HIV positive at the time too...never again, if i can avoid it. Even though they give you strong pain killers, it's still almost unbearable.

[girl gone mad]

264. as long as we're injecting live virus into people, shingles will

continue to exist. There is a shingles vaccine, but it is 50% effective, at best.

[TahitiNut]

43. Chicken Pox vaccine is relatively recent -- 1995

I remember it was one of the childhood diseases EVERYONE got -- or almost. Itchy, itchy, itchy. Along with measles, it was just something we regarded as normal.

But we also grew up when polio was "normal" ... and I remember when the polio vaccine was invented in 1955. I was 12 and even kids my age were agog with it. Salk was a hero. It's hard to convey to younger folks just how ever-present the summertime fear of polio was. It was the monster under the bed ... but it was real.

[Shardik]

47. Well, ya got ten years on me TN

:) And boy, do I remember it well. I still bear a poxmark from one particularly itchy bump that I couldn't satisfy with lotion.

[canetoad]

123. Yep, I had the lot

and so did every other kid I knew. Measles, German measles, mumps, chicken pox, jaundice (wtf?). It was not a question of IF you caught them but when. I was born in 54 but remember how common polio victims were. By the time I became aware of it the youngest ones were into their teens.

[Oak2004]

276. And if you weant to know the difference between then and now, in one succinct quote:

Edward R. Murrow: Who owns the patent on this vaccine?

Jonas Salk: Well, the people, I would say. There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?

Contrast that with the battles people face today to get lifesaving meds from the the profit, er pharmaceutical, industry. And contrast Salk's understanding of social responsibility with today's hypercapitalism (or at least the wreckage of hypercapitalism, now that it has imploded).

If the polio vaccine had been discovered after the Reagan Devolution, the polio vaccine would cost $1000 per dose and we'd nonetheless be wracked by annual summer polio epidemics, despite "all our best efforts".

[jmm]

50. I got chicken pox twice.

The first time I was 4. The second time I was 14. Thanks to some bad advice from a doctor that tried diagnosing me with Hepatitis :eyes: I showered when I shouldn't have and it spread on my entire body. While lying in bed trying not to scratch everywhere I saw on the news that a chicken pox vaccine had been approved and would be on the market soon. This was in 1994.

[JeanGrey]

178. And there is nothing worse than a arrogant doctor who will INSIST

you cannot have them twice. I told one three times I did and he could cling to whatever he wished but he was WRONG.

[lolly]

269. Sometime between '88 and '98

The vaccine came out sometime between my 2nd kid (my first 2 had the pox) and my 3rd (my 3rd and 4th were vaccinated and haven't ever had it).

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. 50 people in the US die every year from chicken pox

Serious complications from chickenpox include bacterial infections which can involve many sites of the body including the skin, tissues under the skin, bone, lungs (pneumonia), joints, and blood. Other serious complications are due directly to infection with the varicella-zoster virus and include viral pneumonia, bleeding problems, and infection of the brain (encephalitis). Many people are not aware that before a vaccine was available approximately 10,600 persons were hospitalized and 100 to 150 died as a result of chickenpox in the U.S. every year.

Many of the deaths and complications from chickenpox occur in previously healthy children and adults. From 1990 to 1994, before a vaccine was available, about 50 children and 50 adults died from chickenpox every year; most of these persons were healthy or did not have a medical illness (such as cancer) that placed them at higher risk of getting severe chickenpox. Since 1999, states have been encouraged to report chickenpox deaths to CDC. These reports have shown that some deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in healthy, unvaccinated children and adults. Most of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/dis-faqs-gen.htm

[Maru Kitteh]

75. In the late 70's my nephew's CP invaded his airways, his ears, his eyelids

He almost died. There was NO vaccine then.

Parents who forgo vaccinations because of woo-woo pseudo-"scientific" bullshit on the internet are deserving of the highest level of contempt. It's the same kind of ignorance that allows a perfectly treatable young child to die because the GD "parents" don't believe in medical treatment. It's the very same damn thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Couldn't agree more.

Not vaccinating your kids is insane.

[Hannah Bell]

96. Yes, & 12,000-plus kids die each year from accidents, mostly automobile.

People, including children, die.

The much higher risk (higher than for all diseases combined) apparently doesn't stop people from putting their kids in cars.

Just saying.

[tabasco]

102. Maybe look up the definition of accident.

Then compare it to intentionally giving a kid a disease.

[Hannah Bell]

110. intentionally giving kids diseases was exactly what everyone did before 1995.

because disease was there, & there was no vaccine. Since chickenpox is more dangerous for teens & adults than children, parents wanted their children to get it young. Trying NOT to expose them would have been the more risky option, get it?

"Prior to the introduction of vaccine in 1995 in the US (released in 1988 in Japan & Korea), there were around 4,000,000 cases per year in the U.S., mostly children, with typically 100 or fewer deaths. Though mostly children caught it, the majority of deaths (by as much as 80%) were among adults."


i refer you to this post for an example of how "scientists" can come to different conclusions about the wisest uses of available technology.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4830231&mesg_id=4831561

[uppityperson]

112. But now there is a vaccine, we are talking about that and now.

There is not a need to intentionally give kids chicken pox now.

[Hannah Bell]

117. No need - but no need to e.g. "report them for child abuse" either.

People should know risk & history - particularly when the history is only 15 years ago.

[uppityperson]

120. Intentionally infecting your child(ren) with an easily preventable disease is not child abuse?

Now that technology exists that shows it is not a good thing to do anymore, that there is a much better choice?

[Hannah Bell]

126. not chickenpox, not in my book, maybe in yours.

actually, i found the post suggesting reporting the parent rather creepy.

i refer you to this post for an example of how "scientists" can come to different conclusions about the wisest uses of available technology.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4830231&mesg_id=4831561

[LisaL]

266. Everyone? I've never heard of this practice.

[uppityperson]

106. Less die now that seat belts are required.

Not sure what mva's have to do with chickenpox. Now that there is a way for less to die, it seems reasonable to use that way though. Whether that be immunizations or seat belts.

Just saying.

[Hannah Bell]

115. no, that's a recent statistic. seatbelts have been around a long time.

The comparison has to do with risk, with people's tendency to get up in arms over one form of risk, while minimizing others which are more risky.

Even without any vaccination, your child has a higher risk of dying or being injured r/t automobiles than chickenpox.

"Prior to the introduction of vaccine in 1995 in the US (released in 1988 in Japan & Korea), there were around 4,000,000 cases per year in the U.S., mostly children, with typically 100 or fewer deaths. Though mostly children caught it, the majority of deaths (by as much as 80%) were among adults."

Just saying.

I think it's funny there are so many people vigorously condemning the practice, which was normal & wide-spread - & the SAFEST option - not so very long ago.

[uppityperson]

118. No, it has to do with using the technology that exists to save lives.

The vaccine can save lives as seat belts can save lives. It is now "not so very long ago" and we are talking about what people are doing now. The technology exists now, so what was wide-spread in the past is no longer the best option.

Unless you mean having chicken pox parties now are a bad idea.

[Hannah Bell]

129. i think chicken pox "parties" are fine. i think vaccination is fine.

[underpants]

187. That doesn't mean that we can't try to prevent both

Just saying.

[shanti]

78. siblings are good for that

i remember when three of my sons all got chicken pox withing weeks of each other. this was back before the vaccine, in the late 90's.

[Roon]

254. all three of us kids had chicken pox at the same time

[malaise]

32. My brother came home with chicken pox

just before Christmas holidays decades ago. Then dad had it - and by Christmas day the last two siblings and I had it - we were all better before school reopened and that was the end of chicken pox in our family. Mom had it as a child and she was the only one who didn't get it. It was uneventful - lots of calamine lotion and no scars.

Chicken pox is not polio. Our entire generation survived chicken pox without vaccines.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

107. "chicken pox is not polio"

great comment!

[malaise]

200. We all had our polio shots

I can't always believe some of the comparisons thrown up on DU.

[TZ]

205. But SHINGLES which is secondary chicken pox

Is every bit as BAD as Polio-crippling painful and long term. All these kids who are exposed to chicken pox instead of vaccinated become SHINGLES CARRIERS...HELLO TYPHOID MARY!!!
Look at the upswing in shingles in the last few years..its because of THESE types of things.

[Hannah Bell]

245. bull. the vaccine has only been in existence 14 years, which means the first generation to get it

could hardly be older than 20 now.

& coverage isn't declining.

so how does the use or non-use of the vaccine affect the incidence of shingles, again?

[JuniperLea]

260. Not true...

Like I said downthread... my mom did it with me... I did it with my kids... and we all learned it because my granny did it with my mom and aunts... and she learned it from her mother, who died at the ripe old age of 99.75... and had suffered shingles as an adult after having caught CP from her own brother and sisters. This has been going on for as long as it's been know CP was contagious and relatively benign.

[Mojambo]

2. Didn't South Park do an episode on this phenomenon back in the day? n/t

[Deja Q]

14. Yup. They retaliated by finding ways to give "chickenpox" to all the adults

I don't recall the details, except for their mention "herpes" is a form of chickenpox...

I had no idea southpark could be educational... :silly:

[Auggie]

15. It is a form of herpes

That's why their isn't cure

[backscatter712]

103. Yeah, the kids were inflicted with "chicken-herpes" by the parents making them play together...

The kids retaliated by hiring South Park's hooker (extra-skanky) and having her inflict the more infamous kind of herpes on the parents.

[jayfish]

261. "Time To Play Ookie Mouth!" -NT-

Jay

[backscatter712]

273. Mom, why don't you have cold sores?

"I have them in a different place..."

[xchrom]

3. ...

:eyes: i know i should be surprised -- but frankly -- i find this kind of stupidity laying around all over the place.

[Auggie]

4. Intentionally spreading disease? What reckless idiots...

Besides, Chicken Pox can lead to shingles in older age.

You DO NOT want shingles.

[underpants]

7. My wife heard this on a morning radio show

and THAT (shingles) is exactly what happened to one of the adults who had had it.

[Auggie]

10. My dad has shingles

It's horrible. There's no cure. No real effective treatment. It's chronic pain -- you can't scratch the itch without making it worse.
It can lead to chronic depression too. People become housebound.

And these selfish assholes are intentionally spreading the virus that causes it.

[Maru Kitteh]

77. For those who are caring for their elderly parents......... GET THEM THE VACCINE

My dad went through it too, in 93, well before any vaccine that I know of. It's terrible. I got my mom the vaccine 7 weeks ago.

[Hannah Bell]

135. Get their elderly parents the vaccine? Maybe I missed something, but if they're

elderly, odds are they were exposed long ago & carry the virus in their body.

How would vaccination help?

Serious question, maybe you know something i don't.

on edit: i see upon further research you must be talking about the shingles vaccine. thanks for educating me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19058405?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Hannah Bell]

88. He got it from reactivated virus in his own body, not from "selfish assholes".

"Herpes zoster (or simply zoster), commonly known as shingles, is a viral disease characterized by a painful skin rash with blisters in a limited area on one side of the body, often in a stripe. The initial infection with varicella zoster virus (VZV) causes the acute (short-lived) illness chickenpox, and generally occurs in children and young people. Once an episode of chickenpox has resolved, the virus is not eliminated from the body but can go on to cause shingles—an illness with very different symptoms—often many years after the initial infection."


Like the herpes virus, the chickenpox virus is forever. Once you've had chickenpox, it hides out in your body until illness, decreased immunity, etc. weakens your system enough for it to manifest.

[Pithlet]

99. He didn't say his father got it from the selfish assholes.

He said the selfish assholes are spreading the disease. Which is true. They are. There's no way that every single parent is keeping their child completely quarantined in the home immediately for the two weeks after these parties. I highly doubt it. If this isn't the media typically blowing things out of proportion, and these parties are actually happening? Then these people are indeed creating a public hazard. For instance, there are adults who've never had it, and it's dangerous for them to contract it now, and it puts them at risk.

I actually think it was rather a shame parents were doing this to the extent they were before the vaccines. If everyone just chilled, maybe chicken pox wouldn't have been nearly as prevalent as it was. It seems to me that it is never a good idea to expose your child to an illness on purpose, ever, when you can't guarantee the outcome. You don't know how severe the case may be, and sometimes the complications are deadly. That was true even before there was a vaccine.

[uppityperson]

109. How many of these parents are taking 2 wks off work to stay home with their kids?

I used to handle phone calls in a med clinic, dealing with parents with kids with chicken pox. No, you can't send them back to school, take them to work, take them to the grocery store, take them to daycare, etc, until every sore is fully scabbed over.

It means you have to take 2 wks off work? That sucks. It really does. You took your kid to a chickenpox party? Start planning for what you are going to do.

[Pithlet]

114. Did you mean this for me? I'm against the parties.

I think they're ridiculous. There was some benefit to such a thing before there was vaccine, though I'm not sure I would have done it even back then. But, now? It's insane.

[uppityperson]

116. I am in agreement with you. Have posted this elsewhere too.

Hoping that the argumentative one might read it here. It is like not using a seat belt, now that they are in cars. The technology exists to save lives. Not using it is wrong.

[Pithlet]

124. Oh, okay. Gotcha.

I suspect this is just another media blowing out of proportion thing, and it's really a very small few parents who are actually doing this. I'm hoping, anyway.

[Crunchy Frog]

165. It was definitely something that made sense prior to vaccines being available.

MUCH better to get in childhood than as an adult. With the currently available vaccines, it may still be an open question. I'm curious as to how long they're effective for. Do they protect in childhood only to leave you vulnerable as an adult? Getting it in adulthood is FAR more likely to make you seriously ill, or even endanger your life.

[applejuice]

190. As a parent I really agree with you

Pithlet said:

"I actually think it was rather a shame parents were doing this to the extent they were before the vaccines. If everyone just chilled, maybe chicken pox wouldn't have been nearly as prevalent as it was. It seems to me that it is never a good idea to expose your child to an illness on purpose, ever, when you can't guarantee the outcome. You don't know how severe the case may be, and sometimes the complications are deadly. That was true even before there was a vaccine."

I have three kids, and we live in the UK where they do not vaccinate. My oldest got CP when my youngest was only 6 months and still breastfeeding. He didn't get any spots and we don't know if he has immunity or not. Several time when someone we know has come down with it we have had lots of people say I shoudl take this son over and have him share drinks, give hugs etc.

I never have and NOT because I don't want himt to get it (I'd rather he did young), but only because if I intentionally did this and then he became one of the rare cases with complications etc I would feel it was my fault. Who wants that on their heads?

I am sure he will get it at Nursery School or from friends etc, or he may be immune (I've been thinking of having him tested). My youngest (5 months) still hasn't had it either.

[Auggie]

206. Thanks for coming to the defense

I was offline last night

[libnnc]

9. from what I understand, you don't want to get chicken pox as an adult

damned if you do damned if you don't

[surrealAmerican]

31. I had chicken pox as an adult.

I wish I'd had it as a kid. I did learn that:
1. a fever can get to 108F. without killing you and
2. very high fevers really do make you hallucinate.

[myrna minx]

217. I had chicken pox at the age of 28. I have NEVER been so ill. I thought I was going to die.

I wouldn't wish adult chicken pox on anyone. You're not kidding about the fevers and hallucinations.

[kskiska]

270. A high fever can cause hearing loss, among other things

[FirstLight]

52. AFAIK, the vaccine is just as dangerous for shingles

the vacine is the same thing as having the virus, you will have the anitbodies and the virus in your body...so shingles can occure in adults who have been vacinated too, and some say the vaccination can wear off and then we have a slew of teens and college kids with chicken pox ...and that can hospitalize or kill too

[Pithlet]

57. No.

The vaccine is not the same thing as having the virus. Having the antibodies is not the same thing as having had the virus. Some say the vaccination can wear off? Some say a lot of things.

[girl gone mad]

151. Yes, the vaccine does wear off.

Unfortunately, doctors are finding out that the immunity wears off much more quickly than they had assumed. This can be very dangerous because children who have gotten the vaccine may be at greater risk of getting chicken pox later in life, when it is significantly more dangerous.

[Pithlet]

186. Yes, They do recommend a booster now.

Some vaccines do require boosters.

[seabeyond]

196. i knew this would happen. my kids had to get it. now what.... gonna have abunch of adults

with chicken pox. this was a brilliant move....

pissed me off when they made it mandatory. and the reason? cause two working home and single workers were having to take a week off to care for kids

[Hannah Bell]

239. yes, that is one of the big items in the "cost-effective" studies!

but they mean the cost-effectiveness for business, of course.

not for families.

[Hannah Bell]

133. That's apparently why the Brits don't vaccinate for chickenpox, the reckless idiots.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4830231&mesg_id=4831561

[Crunchy Frog]

163. Actually, reexposure to chickenpox in adults who have already had it

helps to prevent them from getting shingles. If an adult has NEVER had chickenpox, they're best off getting vaccinated, since it tends to be much more severe in adults.

[girl gone mad]

175. The vaccine can lead to shingles, too.

The chicken pox vaccine is not a vaccine against shingles. There is a separate vaccine for that.

[WolverineDG]

5. Well, that's how I got it

unintentionally, of course, but that's where I caught it.

dg

[tammywammy]

12. I got it from my brother when I was 4.

I don't really remember it much, except throwing up on the rug in the living room. LOL

[WolverineDG]

17. It's highly contagious

they didn't know for a couple of days that my friend's brother had it for certain, but the day after they knew, every kid at that party had chicken pox. I still have a scar on my forehead from it.

dg

[Raine]

16. Same here

I got it at school than my friend got it from me. All I remember is that it itched.

[Guaranteed]

113. I was about 4 as well.

I remember being in the backyard at my babysitter's, feeling something itching on my chest, pulling up my shirt and seeing a bunch of mosquito-bite-looking pox.

I thought it was weird, shrugged, and went back to playing.

Got home and showed my parents, who were displeased I didn't mention it earlier. LOL.

And, yeah, I remember it itching a lot, scratching the tops off the pox. That's about it- don't remember ever feeling all that sick.

[Lebam in LA]

6. When I was growing up

All the parents in my neighborhood ran to the house with chickenpox, measles and mumps to make sure their kids got whatever the ailment dujour

[kiva]

13. Yep, when the neighborhood kids

got the measles, everybody went by for a visit--my mom was always disappointed that I never caught measles, chicken pox, or mumps that way. Of course--required caveat--this was before vaccines for these diseases, and the general assumption was that it was better for kids to develop immunity by catching these diseases as children rather than as adults.

[Lebam in LA]

36. Yes, This was back in the 50's

Everyone I knew back then got all of them. Moms wanted all the kids to get it at once so they werent taking one sick kid after another. There were 5 of us

[Hannah Bell]

101. It's more dangerous for teens or adults. Not an assumption, fact.

[hobbit709]

8. About 25 years ago

someone I knew brought her kid with chickenpox to another friends house for a birthday party. My friend Bob, had never had chicken pox as a kid. It got into his lungs and he spent three weeks in intensive care. As he was gaping on oxygen, he wanted us to bring Debra over so he could use his dying strength to wrap his hands around her throat. He lived but no jury would have convicted him.

[WolverineDG]

19. "You've had chicken pox, right?"

that's how I was greeted on Christmas Day a couple of years ago at my cousin's house.... :crazy: Yup, that disease is very bad news if caught when you're an adult.

dg

[Rockholm]

209. I haven't had chicken pox.

Whenever nieces & nephews come over, I always make sure that they are not sick. I had a friend who got deathly ill like your friend. Took him ages to get well.

[Sanctified]

18. My mom did this for me 25 years ago...

It's a harmless disease for children I don't see the big deal.

[TZ]

21. its NOT harmless for all., some children get serious complications

and by the way this can give adults SHINGLES which is a HORRID disease. Vaccinated children won't get chicken pox OR shingles.

[Sanctified]

26. You can still get Shingles from the vaccine.

The Vaccine is a live weakened case of Chicken Pox, thus you can still spread it to others and you can still get shingles as an adult.

[Pithlet]

29. Really? Link, please. n/t

[canucksawbones]

35. he's right

it is an attenuated live vaccine and should not be administered to immunocompromised individuals. However rate of shingles is only 8 cases in 42000. The reason for immunizing is not so much the idea of preventing harmless disease, but to prevent the somewhat rarer but devastating cases of varicella encephalitis (often fatal or resulting in permanent brain damage)and varicella pneumonitis (also with a high death rate. As well, chicken pox is often associated with bacterial superinfection (bacteria infect the pox causing local infection, and that will at times lead to systemic bacterial infection). Although chicken pox is mostly harmless, when it isn't it can be devastating.

G

[Pithlet]

40. Well, that doesn't exactly make him right.

8 cases in 42,000 (if you're right. Don't take it personally, but there's a lot of woo garbage out there about vaccines, and I still can't find anything about a direct link between the vaccine and shingles) that isn't that high. And it certainly isn't a reason not to vaccinate. And as you say, it doesn't support the argument that chickenpox is entirely harmless, either. The reasons to vaccinate are to prevent against the potentially fatal complications. And, really, there's no reason to suffer from a preventable disease like chickenpox, anyway. I had a particularly severe case that was very painful. I saw no reason for my children to have to go through that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. He's right

It's the same virus. And shingles is more dangerous than chicken pox.

[Pithlet]

90. He's talking about the vaccine. Not the virus.

I can't find anything that states the vaccine causes shingles. I've looked and looked. If there's info out there, it's pretty hidden on the internets, at least as far as reputable sources go.

[Hannah Bell]

257. They don't know, is the answer. The vaccine is only 14 years old (20 in japan),

which means we won't know for years down the road.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205105644.htm

but it's a live, though attenuated, vaccine. which would seem to mean it would have the potential to cause shingles, in the same way the wild virus does.

[FirstLight]

54. The vaccine has not been out long enough for that determination

...shingles can occur much later in life, so those vacinated in 1995... are still pretty young.
Once that virus has been introduced into the blood(dead or not...if it can activate the anitbodies, it is still somewhat viable), it can sit dormant for decades, AND there is no proof that the vaccine "sticks" even after boosting...so that's why we are having Teens break out in hooping cough and measles, etc

(yep, I am against vaccinations, so flame away)

[boppers]

141. ITYM whooping cough, and from what I understand, the issue is:

Vaccinated kids can give *adults* a disease that they (the child) carry, but are immune to.

So, "child with vaccine, no symptoms"(carrier)->"adults infected with shingles".

Imagine the dilemma of an AIDS (not HIV) vaccination. If you give people the vaccine, they can spread HIV (if exposed), and not get AIDS. Those not vaccinated, however, will likely have HIV that progresses to AIDS.

So, the dilemma about a vaccination that allows people to carry/transmit:
1. No vaccine: child may, or may not, contract illness, will carry/share the illness, can suffer the illness.
2. Vaccine: child may, or may not, contract illness, will carry/share the illness, is much less likely to suffer the illness.

As far as "flaming" you goes, I hope that your loved ones don't suffer too much, and can live happy, if shorter, often more painful, lifetimes, or can somehow avoid meeting other people, or traveling in such a way that they are exposed to devastating illness.

[HamdenRice]

215. I think you have this backwards. Shingles comes from having had chickepox, not being exposed again

You are confusing shingles and adult cases of chicken pox.

Shingles comes from having had chicken pox as a child (or some earlier time), and not having been exposed to the virus for a long time hence losing immunity or having some other immuno compromised condition. The latent virus then resurfaces causing a much more severe disease -- shingles.

So your statement, "this can give adults SHINGLES which is a HORRID disease" is wrong; it fact the opposite is true, namely, that exposure of shingles-susceptible adults to children with chickenpox prevents such adults from developing shingles.

So spreading chicken pox does not increase the incidence of shingles; it decreases the incidence of shingles. That's the British position.

You would be more correct if you were concerned about the spread of chicken pox among children making adult first case chicken pox more prevalent. That's a serious problem. Btw, I had chicken pox as an adult, and it was a horrible experience that made me much sicker than what it normally does to children. Moreover, since I was a working adult, I was in an office where a pregnant woman was working, and there was fear that she might have been infected, which is potentially harmful to the fetus (fortunately she didn't get infected).

Similarly, you would be on firmer ground if you were advocating against the spread of chickenpox because it creates a population of shingles-susceptible adults -- especially as the prevalence of chickenpox and hence frequency of viral exposure over all decreases.

But your "chicken pox causes shingles" theory has it backwards. Chicken pox prevalence in the population is not a direct cause of shingles; it prevents it.

[Hannah Bell]

248. nope, yet to be determined.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205105644.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html

[hedgehog]

24. But is it harmless for all people? Increasingly, scientists are looking at a model

of virus exposure + genetic problem as causes for diseases such as lupus, schizophrenia, rheumatic arthritis, Type 1 diabetes etc. There is a genetic problem with the immune system to begin with, but it takes the exposure to a virus (particular virus? any virus?) to trigger the disease process. Why take the risk of carrying a herpes virus the rest of your life if you don't have to?

[Mind_your_head]

27. Scary viruses - who knows what "hell" they cause! Doctors/scientists sure don't (admittedly) know!

So stop trying to be scare people with all of the known "unknowns" (as Rumsfelt-himself said) :eyes:

:scared: <------ :sarcasm:

[Pithlet]

25. It's not harmless.

It lies dormant in your body and can cause shingles later in life as an adult. There's no reason for children to contract it anymore now that there's a vaccine for it. I wish there had been a vaccine when I was a kid. My case was so severe I had to go to the hospital, and the doctors said they'd never seen a case like mine. It was extremely painful. One of the worst experiences of my life. I'm very glad my children were vaccinated and there's no chance they'll go through what I did.

[Horse with no Name]

30. The disease is NOT harmless

To many it is self-limiting...but the complications from chicken pox can be deadly. In the days of the chickenpox parties, I can understand the desire to do this because it was more important that the kids got the disease over with when they were younger because the complications tended to get worse as they got older, but today, when there is a vaccine available, these parties are senselessly dangerous.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chickenpox/DS00053
>>>snip
Chickenpox was once considered a rite of passage for most children. Before the vaccine became available, about 4 million children in the Unites States contracted chickenpox each year, and nearly 11,000 people were hospitalized and about 100 people died each year from chickenpox infections. (I guess that is okay if your kid isn't one of the 100).

>>>snip
Chickenpox is normally a mild disease. But it can be serious and can lead to complications, especially in these high-risk groups:

* Newborns and infants whose mothers never had chickenpox or the vaccine
* Teenagers
* Adults
* Pregnant women
* People whose immune systems are impaired by medication, such as chemotherapy, or another disease
* People who are taking steroid medications for another disease or condition, such as children with asthma
* People with the skin inflammation eczema

A common complication of chickenpox is a bacterial infection of the skin. Chickenpox may also lead to pneumonia or, rarely, an inflammation of the brain (encephalitis), both of which can be very serious.

Chickenpox and shingles
Anyone who had chickenpox is at risk of a latent illness called shingles. After a chickenpox infection, some of the varicella-zoster virus may remain in your nerve cells. Many years later, the virus can reactivate and resurface as shingles — a painful band of short-lived blisters. About one in 10 adults who've had chickenpox experiences shingles. The virus is more likely to reappear in older adults and people with weakened immune systems.

Shingles can lead to its own complication — a condition in which the pain of shingles persists long after the blisters disappear. This complication, called postherpetic neuralgia, can be severe.

[Hannah Bell]

173. Notice the language?

"4 million children in the Unites States contracted chickenpox each year, and nearly 11,000 people were hospitalized and about 100 people died each year"

The switch from "children" to "people" is because the majority of the dead & hospitalized were ADULTS or TEENS.

The safest time to get chickenpox is as a young child; the risk of serious complications is very small.

We drive our babies in cars routinely; the risk is 100s of times higher.

[qwertyMike]

34. It was common when I was young

Chicken pox Sleepovers.

Harmless

[polly7]

44. Please, please everyone take chickenpox seriously. n/t.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. No it is NOT harmless

People DIE from chicken pox.

[AngryAmish]

203. except for my cousin, who almost died

[AlCzervik]

22. My daughter has been exposed to them a few times and still hasn't caught it.

No vaccine either.

[Mind_your_head]

23. Yep - we ALL did this (more or less) with our kids

15-16 years ago. The parents didn't have to worry b/c we all had chicken pox as kids too!

[ddeclue]

28. CARAZZZY!!!

:crazy:

[Mind_your_head]

41. Why is it "CRAZY"? It's only natural.

Our bodies are hugely disease resistant.....b/c of tens of thousands of years of evolution. And if the body isn't disease resistant, the disease "typically" isn't a killer.

[ddeclue]

45. Yet you don't know what kinds of germs you are sharing...

enjoy your hanta virus!

:)

[Mind_your_head]

49. Hanta virus....that's really obscure (and rare)

you (nor I) can protect ourselves from 'everything'.

We take our chances. Chance is in our favor. (Sometimes we lose, of course...but chance is in our favor) :-)

[Posteritatis]

82. "natural" and "crazy" overlap at times (nt)

[Confusious]

37. Never had chiken pox, mumps, or any of those childhood diseases

But my brother did, and I was around him alot.

I get the flu every 5 years and a cold once a year, usually as winters coming.

[Occam Bandage]

39. Go get your ass inoculated.

You might never get it, but if you do, chicken pox can outright kill you as an adult.

[LeftyMom]

42. You should get a titer to see if you're immune from exposure

Some people get mild, largely asymptomatic cases but still gain immunity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. My mom never had any of those diseases either

Her doctors said she had an amazing immune system.

[malaise]

201. I got mumps in my 20s

My aunt's dog had pups and they all had mumps. I nursed all of them back to health with glucose and milk and medicine my aunt got from the vet. You can't imagine the surprise when I came down with mumps which is quite unpleasant in adults. That said it was worth it because I took one pup for myself and she grew up to be a wonderful dog - Miss Roots died when she was 12 years old.

[Occam Bandage]

38. That's how I got it twenty years ago. Still, this kind of shit is dangerous.

Anti-vaccers are irresponsible and endanger the lives of their children.

[uppityperson]

46. Pregnant women and immunocompromised should NOT be around chickenpox.

I grew up before the vaccine and we had these parties since most of us would end up getting it anyway. Now, with the vaccine, I think these are a REALLY bad idea. People for whom the vaccine is contraindicated would also be at severe risk by trying to get, or even getting, chickenpox.

Here is some info on pregnancy risks.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/chicken_pox.html
Pregnant women and anyone with immune system problems should not be near a person with chickenpox. If a pregnant woman who hasn't had chickenpox in the past contracts it (especially in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy), the fetus is at risk for birth defects and she is at risk for more health complications than if she'd been infected when she wasn't pregnant. If she develops chickenpox just before or after the child is born, the newborn is at risk for serious health complications. There is no risk to the developing baby if the woman develops shingles during the pregnancy.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chickenpox/DS00053
Before the vaccine became available, about 4 million children in the Unites States contracted chickenpox each year, and nearly 11,000 people were hospitalized and about 100 people died each year from chickenpox infections. Thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases and hospitalizations is down dramatically.
(clip)
Chickenpox and pregnancy
Other complications of chickenpox affect pregnant women. Chickenpox early on in pregnancy can result in a variety of problems in a newborn, including low birth weight and birth defects, such as limb abnormalities. A greater threat to a baby occurs when the mother develops chickenpox in the week before birth. Then it can cause a serious, life-threatening infection in a newborn.

http://www.webmd.com/hw-popup/complications-of-chickenpox-during-pregnancy
Pregnant women who have chickenpox are at risk of complications. The type of complications depend on when the infection developed during pregnancy.

* Pregnant women who have chickenpox during the first half of pregnancy may go into labor early (premature labor) or have a miscarriage.
* Pregnant women who have chickenpox in the last part of pregnancy are more likely to develop varicella pneumonia. Even a healthy pregnant woman is at risk of dying if she develops varicella pneumonia.
* Up to 2 out of 100 fetuses whose mothers have chickenpox during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy will also get chickenpox.1 This is called congenital varicella and can cause:
o Birth defects. Birth defects can include one limb (usually a leg) smaller than the other, scars on the limbs, or eye problems such as cloudy lenses.
o Low birth weight (weigh less than expected at birth).
o Seizures. The baby can have seizures after birth.
o Mental retardation.
o Shingles. Fetuses who have chickenpox will not have chickenpox again. But they can still have shingles, even as babies or young children.
o Death. Up to 7 out of 100 of the fetuses who get congenital varicella die.2
* Babies born within a few days of their mothers' chickenpox infection have a risk of severe chickenpox infection. These babies are at greater risk of complications from chickenpox.

[MrsMatt]

211. I can attest to that

I came down with chickenpox when I was 31 weeks pregnant - I was diagnosed early on, was given an anti-viral medication, and had to spend the night in the hospital (with a big biohazard warning on my door).

I think I was very fortunate, as I was completely over it when I gave birth at 38 weeks. Thankfully, my daughter was born healthy.

But, you can be damn sure I got both of my kids vaccinated against chickenpox. My mother had the same determination to have her kids vaccinated against polio - as she'd suffered from it as a young girl.

Nothing like a little personal experience to affect your ideas on vaccination.

[cynatnite]

48. It was normal for the kids to be exposed intentionally when I was growing up...

we all lived pretty close together and it was a quick way to get it done and over with. Now that everyone has moved away no one will do it.

[pinto]

51. While benign for most kids there's a bigger picture. i.e.,

Progressive outer retinal necrosis, also known as Varicella zoster virus retinitis (VZVR)<1>, is an aggressive, necrotizing inflammation of the eye's retina caused by herpes varicella zoster virus. It is typically found in people with advanced AIDS, but has also been reported in those who are severely immunocompromised due to chemotherapy<2>.

The majority of those with progressive outer retinal necrosis develop severe vision loss and blindness<3>. Systemic antiviral drugs may improve the long-term visual outcome in those with the disease<1>.

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_outer_retinal_necrosis

In about 10-20% of cases, VZV reactivates later in life producing a disease known as herpes zoster or shingles. Serious complications of shingles include postherpetic neuralgia, zoster multiplex, myelitis, herpes ophthalmicus, or zoster sine herpete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_zoster_virus

[cynatnite]

53. It's good to know my medical terminology course is paying off...

Currently taking the class right now. :)

[pinto]

81. Cool. You got it, right?

Progressive outer retinal necrosis = ongoing tissue death of the eye's retina.

Aggressive, necrotizing inflammation of the eye's retina = persistent inflammation resulting in tissue death in the retina.

Serious complications of shingles include postherpetic neuralgia = post infection/outbreak nerve pain.

Zoster multiplex = multiple complications from zoster infection.

Myelitis = inflammation of the nerves (myelin sheaths).

Herpes ophthalmicus = herpes of the eye.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

119. or you can just go to the doctor if you get it

you don't have to sit there. Go to the doctor, there are treatments.

[no_hypocrisy]

55. Only in America would there be parties organized to spread herpes

(zoster, that is).

[eowyn_of_rohan]

56. That's what our moms did in the 60s!

They'd hang out together and eat coffee cake while the kids played. Worked, too. lol

[bertman]

58. My little sis got chicken pox when she was about eight or ten. She has terrible scars

on her face from it. She had red blister-like sores all over her. Very nasty stuff. I don't remember having it, but I think I had a mild case. Thank goodness.

[Cleita]

59. This is what my parents generation did with my generation.

There was a reason. We had no vaccines except for small pox. The parents reasoning was to get all the childhood diseases done as quickly as possible and that was measles, mumps and chicken pox. There was no polio vaccine then though so parents lived in fear that we might get it. There was no sharing that one. However, if the parents think it's so harmless, they should beware that the chicken pox virus reappears decades later as Shingles, a painful disease that sometimes takes months to "wear off". Doctors can't offer you anything except some inadequate pain killers for it. I know. I had chicken pox at the age of six and got shingles sixty years later at the age of sixty six. It was awful.

[EFerrari]

62. My mom kept shipping me off to my infected cousins' houses

and I never managed to catch anything. lol

[Cleita]

64. You probably did but only got a mild case that no one noticed.

The mild case, which probably showed up as a low fever cold, was enough to immunize you. :-)

[leftofthedial]

60. I grew up in the 60's

we had gonorrhea parties


Seriously, when my kids were young, some parents did that on kind of an impromptu, spur-of-the-moment basis. The pre- and elementary-school grapevine would heat up. The kids thought it was great. Until the itching started.

We always did the vaccine thing, but our oldest got chicken pox a few years later. It sucked.

[Mind_your_head]

66. Oh bullshit.....the chicken pox vaccine hasn't been around very long...AND

there is NO GUARANTEE for 'how long it will/does last'! Contracting chicken pox at an early age, with small consequence, doesn't "do" much for BIG PHARMA, does it?

[leftofthedial]

68. My younger daughter caught it when she was young, though I don't remember how old.

My older daughter was in third or fourth grade I think. I remember her being really miserable with the itching.

[Mind_your_head]

70. Awww....she came out better, 'worse for the wear', didn't she?

That's the point.

[Pithlet]

73. Oh, I guess the hospitalization I required

the excruciating pain I endured, and the scars I still bear, were small consequence. The children that have died from the disease are small consequence. Yes, children who suffer from it in the more typical way usually suffer minimally. But a significant amount suffer more severe cases. A few die. I think that's an awful risk to take. So there's no guarantee for how long the vaccine lasts? At least 10 years, which is how long it's been available in the US, and at least 25, which is how long it's been available in Japan. If it doesn't last beyond that? That's what boosters are for. It IS a disease. There's no reason for children to suffer from it if they don't have to. I'd hate to think of a parent taking their child to one of these parties, and they die. It will happen eventually if parents keep doing this, if it hasn't happened already. It's a foolish risk to take. It's one thing to refuse the vaccine. Not a risk I'd take, but I can't change the fact the anti-vac movement is out there. But to actually purposefully make one's child sick? I just hope this is a rare thing, and the media is blowing it out of proportion, because I think it's sick (no pun intended). It made sense before the vaccine existed, but not now.

[LisaL]

63. Well that boggles my mind.

To intentionally try to make your child sick? I don't get it.

[Mind_your_head]

65. It's not 'getting your child sick"..... it's natural immunization. n/t

[pinto]

72. There's a bigger picture though. Do the kids go visit Grandma two days later,

who's on chemo?, hang out with Uncle Jack, who's immuno-compromised?, go back to school, church, group events, where there a lots of people in close quarters?

I guess a reasonable compromise would be for parents to choose a voluntary quarantine of their exposed kids, after the party, until any reasonable danger of spreading varicella had passed.

[uppityperson]

87. Kids have to stay home from school for at least a week also.

Hey you parents who deliberately get your kids active chicken pox, what do you do with them for that week+ they need to stay home from school? Or do you keep them home only a couple days, then take them with you out into public to infect the elderly, the uncompromised and the pregnant women?

[pinto]

94. I work for Public Health, can't help but find this party thing more than mind boggling.

Has nothing to do with big pharma or any other side issues. And we respect parental rights to health care decisions for their children. Yet our agenda is clear.

In Public Health our client is the community, not necessarily the individual. That's the blunt fact of it. People often misunderstand our focus and our mission.

[uppityperson]

95. I know. Public Health, community is what is looked at.

I have worked Public Health also and private clinics and have had to ask this question of parents. What are you going to do to make sure your children are safely cared for during the week or 2 they can't go to school or daycare?

No, taking them with you to work is not acceptable. No, taking them with you to the store is not acceptable. No, lying to the school is not acceptable. Keep your child(ren) safe, but don't spread it further out in public because there are people out there who WILL get sick and they can have serious issues (like death) if you expose them.

[SarahB]

226. Exactly. People are most contagious BEFORE there's any symptoms.

They better keep those kids in the house instead of exposing at risk people to an airborne infectious disease.

I got Chicken Pox myself at 17 (was otherwise a very healthy young woman) and I missed an entire month of school because I was so sick. For my oncology patients with low WBCs, it would kill them. :(

[Mind_your_head]

227. pfft.......people can't stop sending their kids to school when they are sick

(and will infect others) b/c mom/dad can't afford to take off from work ~ even though mom/dad are going to infect the whole office/plant. That's not efficient. That's what "sick days" are/were "for".

[Maru Kitteh]

79. No. It's exposing your child to a potential killer/debilitator because you read some stupid

pseudo-science, woo-woo shit on the internet and you're betting your kids LIFE on it.

Nice call.

[Hannah Bell]

92. It's what most people did, one way or another, until the 90s.

I guess they were all woo-woo.

How did we ever survive?

I had measles, mumps, & chicken pox, like every kid i knew did. I used to ride my bike without a helmet, ride in the back of pickups, swim & boat without a life jacket, ride in cars without seat belts or kiddie seats, eat home-canned food canned in a water bath - & bread with mold on it!

it's a wonder anyone survived to tell the tale!

[Pithlet]

97. Well, some didn't

They're not able to post on the interenet right now, are they? Funny how that works out.

It actually did make some small amount of sense before the vaccine came out, because even with the risks involved with the disease, it was better to get it as a child than to get it as an adult. It's more dangerous to contract the disease as an adult. But, now that the vaccine exists, it makes far more sense to get them vaccinated, considering death is a possible outcome, however small it might be. If not, it's still better to simply avoid the disease. Deliberately spreading it puts even more people at risk, including innocent people who have nothing to do with such a ridiculous scheme. It's ridiculous to look at something like chicken pox as just a harmless disease just because most children suffer minimally. The truth is many do not. The whole idea that these childhood diseases are just some harmless right of passage is outrageous. There are potentially deadly consequences to that line of thought. Just look at some of the responses to this thread to see that.

[Hannah Bell]

100. I lived before vaccines, so I probably have a better idea than you of how it was.

I don't have a problem with childhood vaccines, but the reaction of some - "report them for child abuse" - is ridiculous. and yes, everyone did it, unless they kept their kid in a closet so he'd never be exposed, in which case they were doing him a disservice, because it was MUCH more dangerous to get chicken pox as a teen or adult. Parents WANTED their kids to get it young, & 99.5% of the time it went without complications.

Childhood deaths & injuries from cars = 100s of times higher.

"Prior to the introduction of vaccine in 1995 in the US (released in 1988 in Japan & Korea), there were around 4,000,000 cases per year in the U.S., mostly children, with typically 100 or fewer deaths. Though mostly children caught it, the majority of deaths (by as much as 80%) were among adults."

[Pithlet]

108. Well, for one thing, I'm not 14 years old.

And so what if someone used hyperbole in this thread? It doesn't change facts. I understand the reasons why parents did it back then. It's not the same thing now. There is a vaccine.

So what if the risk of death by car injury is higher? There's a benefit to exposure to that risk, which is transportation and participation in the world. That means it's okay to expose your child to a risk because the odds are smaller, a risk that reaps no benefit? That doesn't make any sense. What parents are doing now makes absolutely no sense, and the justification that it's just some harmless disease that didn't kill anyone back in the day, so what's the harm, is false. The parents were taking a risk back then, and kids did die back then, but there was a benefit to that risk. The vaccine eliminates that benefit.

[uppityperson]

111. I bet you are one of those people who use seat belts also.

I mean, people always used to drive all over without seat belts and we all survived, right?

:sarcasm:

Not using a vaccine, unless you are one of the FEW who should not, is like not using a seat belt.

[Pithlet]

121. I know, I hate that kind of convoluted logic.

Wow, how did we all manage to survive? We're all here. It's a 100% success rate!

The internet is wonderful, but it's also good at disseminating total crap. The anti-vaccination movement is one glaring example of that. Those emails about "How did we survive our lawndart lead paint filled childhoods without seatbelts and helmets is another. Consumer protection, who needs it?

[Hannah Bell]

131. Britain doesn't recommend chickenpox vax:

i refer you to this post for an example of how "scientists" can come to different conclusions about the wisest uses of available technology.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4830231&mesg_id=4831561

[Pithlet]

152. They're reconsidering.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562918/Children-may-get-chickenpox-vaccine.html

So, scientists can come up with different conclusions, you say? Why, I had no idea. Still doesn't change the fact that here in the US, we've decided to vaccinate. Why could that be? And, hmmmmmm. It looks like the UK just might be planning to as well. I wonder what the reason for that is? The very fact they're considering it tells me something.

[Hannah Bell]

125. Some people feel there's a benefit to not vaccinating. It makes sense to them, &

for chickenpox, the risk is, in fact, very small.

Vaccination also has a slight risk level, btw.

Driving, a rather significant one.

There are many ways to reduce these risks, & people will disagree as to what's most logical.

I posted because this "crazy" practice was, in fact, "normal" less than 20 years prior.

[Pithlet]

132. No. I'm not going to go rounds with an anti-vaccer.

So, this is my last post to you on the subject. The people who feel there is a benefit to not vaccinating are wrong. Vaccination has a very slight risk level that is hugely, massively outweighed by the benefits. It's like a person who buys a lottery ticket certain they're going to win. Only they're gambling with something a hell of a lot more precious. And it's not just the well-being of their own child, but the public good of children everywhere they're gambling with as well. The whole anti-vaccination movement sickens me because of it. The more people who make that choice? The worse off everyone is. Whole diseases were all but completely eradicated, and now those diseases are coming back because of those choices. These diseases can and do kill. But, I'm not going to argue with you further. I've argued with an anti-vaccer before. If you're convinced there's a benefit to not vaccinating? Nothing I can say will change your mind, because it's like a frigging cult. I've learned my lesson. People will disagree as to what's most logical? No. There's nothing logical about not vaccinating.

It's simple, really. It was a normal practice 20 years ago, because there wasn't a vaccine for this disease that has the potential to kill, but is worse to get as an adult. It wasn't such a crazy idea then. It is a crazy idea now. Because there's a vaccine for this disease that has the potential to kill.

Yes. Driving is indeed a rather significant risk. But also a rather necessary one. If you don't drive, it's much harder to live in our society, unless you relocate to New York City. The benefit does indeed outweigh the risk. The benefit to the risk of vaccination? Even better. Because unlike those who've bought into the whole anti-vac bullcrap, the very, very tiny insignificant risk is hugely outweighed by the benefit. It's an even better return on the risk than with driving. Your child is much much much more likely to contract the disease, and even more likely to die of that disease, then they are to suffer the negative consequences of the vaccine. Risk/benefit ratio not even close to being the same as driving. But, again. I doubt I'll change your mind. I've learned my lesson. So, not going back and forth on this any longer.

[Hannah Bell]

138. Guess the UK public health service is wrong, then. Since they don't recommend chickenpox vax

or have it on their immunization schedule.

Open to debate, IMO.

I'm not an "anti-vaxer" btw.

I do, however, believe in looking at the evidence - not just press releases in the news.

You didn't acknowledge the link to the UK policy. But the point is, even scientists can & do disagree on best practice.

So your opinion is your opinion, mine is mine, & both of us can cite equally authoritative science.

[Pithlet]

140. Who cares? They don't fail to recommend it because of any ill effects.

They just don't feel it's necessary to make it a routine part of set of vaccinations. Their reason given seems stupid to me. Just a typical childhood disease. I don't agree with that. It could just be that they're a little behind us, the way we were behind the Japanese, who were using the vaccine a lot longer than we were. But, fine. Parents there get a pass for Chicken Pox parties, then, since it isn't routine. But like I said in one of the posts in that sub thread. I really don't care what the UK does. I'm glad it's routine here. Because it is, it makes no sense to take your kid to a frigging chicken pox party instead. None at all.

If you think that not vaccinating is a valid choice, then you might as well be an anti-vaccer. It's not a valid choice. It's no different than people who don't buckle up their children when they drive. Yes, there's a tiny risk that buckling them up will make them more likely to die in certain car crashes. But it's slight compared to the risk of dying because they DON'T have it on. God help us if a movement starts convincing parents not to buckle up their kids, using scare tactics and pointing to kids who've died because they were buckled up. There are enough people who would buy it. That's exactly what the anti-vaccination movement is, and it makes the same amount of sense. That's not defensible as a valid choice.

[BalancedGoat]

142. Wrong.

They don't make it a part of the standard set of vaccinations because they fear an adverse effect of the number of cases of shingles in adults. It's possible that more people could die as a result than would be saved; atleast for the first few generations.

[Pithlet]

145. Well, regardless. We do do them here.

And it hasn't been anywhere proven conclusively that their fear is founded at any rate. Besides, the parents who pull this stunt aren't doing it out of concern for elderly people because of some study in the UK that says elderly people may or may not suffer as a consequence. My argument still stands. Chicken pox parties in a country that routinely vaccinates them is reckless and stupid.

[Hannah Bell]

143. they don't recommend it - as you'd know if you read the link - because they feel

the overall result is to increase the incidence of morbidity/mortality from shingles without compensating reduction in childhood death/morbidity.

i.e., they feel that on balance, based on current knowledge, the vaccine causes more harm than good. This is a question of evidence, & different observers - even SCIENTISTS - can come to different conclusions looking at the same evidence.

I work in healthcare, I study the history & the lit, & I can make you a very long list of healthcare practices once believed to be wonderful, later believed to be harmful - & vice versa.


i've seen too much crap go down to worship either docs, scientists, or the health establishment without reservation.

[Pithlet]

146. I read the link. I even commented on it upthread, before this discussion here.

Not only did I read it, but I was already aware of that. I knew a bit about this even before this thread ever came up. But, I don't for one minute think that's the reason the parents in the US forgo them, do. Do you? Do you think they're thinking "Ah, some scientists in the UK that thinks the vaccine might not be good for the older populations who've had chickenpox already. So I'd better not get my Katie vaccinated!" Please. I don't. Call me cynical, but I think it's the anti-vaccine movement at work, here. I don't think they're worried about the older populations who've already had chickenpox. I'm not so sure that there's enough evidence to warrant not vaccinating children, so I'm really kind of glad we're not following suit with the UK, personally.

You work in healthcare? That makes your stance on this all the more puzzling to me. Most people I know in health care think people who don't vaccinate their kids are nuts. In fact, all of them I know think that. Really? There were health care practices once believed to be wonderful but are no longer considered to be so? Wow! I had no idea medicine had evolved at all. Glad you cleared that up for me. No doubt medicine is evolving even now. Doesn't mean it's not okay to trust it now in then. And it's pretty safe to say that vaccines are a good and necessary thing. Yeah, so the UK don't have the chickenpox vaccine on their routine schedule. I don't see where that makes all that much of a difference in the argument about whether or not chicken pox parties are a stupid thing to do here in this country, where it is. There's no real logical reason for a parent here in this country to decide against it. There's no logical reason for a parent here to put their child needlessly through the suffering, and potentially deadly complications.

[Hannah Bell]

153. no, i think people who don't vaccinate for chickenpox have various

reasons for not doing so, some of which may be similar to the uk's reasoning, some not.

my point: there can be significant differences of opinion on such things, even among scientists, even among people who know the evidence.

you may believe "there's no logical reason." however, as we see from the example of the uk (& others), SOME PEOPLE DISAGREE, on apparently logical, scientific grounds.

[Pithlet]

155. Look. We're just not going to agree.

I don't even really have a problem with people who might not be sure about the vaccine itself. I do think people can reasonable disagree on that. I will concede that. I won't concede chicken pox parties. Sorry. My problem is with parents who deliberately infect their child with a disease, not knowing what the outcome might be. It's grossly irresponsible. It might have made more sense before the vaccine was available, because chicken pox was much more prevalent due to the fact there was no vaccine. It doesn't make sense now. Even if you don't believe the vaccine is good for your child. It would make sense to simply keep your child away from the disease! It's not logical. I'm sorry. I don't get your support of that as a health professional. It boggles my mind.

[Hannah Bell]

168. Vaccination is ALSO done not knowing the outcome. Some kids still get chickenpox;

some have bad reactions to vaccination; some small % serious rxn or death.

It would NOT make sense to keep your kid away from the disease, because you can't, & if he's exposed to it as a teen or adult, the risk is much worse.

I understand, when you put it "deliberately exposing a child to disease" why you feel the way you do. However, one can't avoid "exposing the child to disease" either way: it's a live, though attenuated, vaccine, & the disease is in the environment. The point of exposing the child purposefully was to be able to control the timing - the child would eventually be exposed, regardless.

I don't "support" it. I simply don't find strong reason to condemn it, looking at cost-benefit, & I don't see a big risk to others, either.

[Pithlet]

150. Looks like the UK is reconsidering:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562918/Children-may-get-chickenpox-vaccine.html

[Hannah Bell]

154. They're "investigating". In case you don't know, it's normal practice to "reconsider"

all national health recommendations regularly, because THE EVIDENCE IS ALWAYS EVOLVING. We do it here, too.

Tell you what, though, the Telegraph needs a proofreader:"Have you say: Are we over-vaccinating our children?"

"Scientific advisers will look into whether a universial programme should be adopted"

Three sentences, two errors.


Did you read this part?

"Routine chicken pox vaccination has been available in America since the 1990s but FEW COUNTRIES IN EUROPE RECOMMEND IT because chicken pox is relatively harmless when contracted in childhood."

"Few countries in Europe"

Those crazy, backward, child-abusing Europeans. Funny how they have LOWER INFANT & CHILD MORTALITY than the US.

Even worse:

"Parents have been known to hold chicken pox parties to try to ensure their child gets the disease early and so has immunity later in life, when symptoms can be more dangerous."

Just like the ignorant americans used to do! Back in the day when there were 4 million cases per year, & approximately 20 child deaths.

There's a risk from vaccination as well. There's also still a risk of contracting chicken pox, even in vaccinated populations (I'll show you some data, if you like). Then there's the still indeterminate risk of increasing shingles incidence.

Then there's the risk of dying in a car crash, which is higher than all of the above, but we accept without a thought whenever we step inside a car.

Life if full of risk; we make our choices & do the best we can.

For the 4th time: informed opinion may come to various conclusions on the wisest course of action.

[Pithlet]

158. I can go back and find more links. That wasn't the only one.

never mind. Forget it.

[Hannah Bell]

160. Did you read the part about how most European countries don't do the chickenpox vax?

My position has all along been there's room for legitimate disagreement here. I don't disparage vaccination, I just don't think the evidence comes down so strongly for it, such that not doing the chickenpox vax = child endangerment.

Yours is that Europeans & people having chickenpox parties are nuts.

I think the weight of the evidence favors my position.

[Pithlet]

166. No, no, no, no ,no. Don't misrepresent my position.

People in Europe and the UK can have all the stupid chicken pox parties they want. I do believe I even stated that. Because their countries don't vaccinate. I have made it exceedingly clear that my point is because WE vaccinate, that it didn't make sense for parents HERE to throw these stupid parties. I'm sorry, but I stand by that position. When weighing the risks, I don't see how any parent can think the wisest choice is to not vaccinate and put their child through a disease like that. The fact is, we do have it available here. I don't think the weight of evidence favors your opinion in the least. Parents in America face three choices. A vaccine, which caries a very slight risk, but the probable outcome is a healthy child with no effects at all. Do nothing at all, and the child might contract a disease that at the very least makes them miserable, and at worst leaves them dead. The third, and most ludicrous choice, is to purposefully infect them with a disease that at the very least makes them miserable, and at worst leaves them dead. That third choice? Is insane. There's no room for legitimate disagreement there. I'm sorry. The second choice? Not nearly so bad. There's some room for reasonable disagreement there. But there is no way I can agree to number three. No way. Even if that's what some parents did before there was a vaccine, and it sort of made sense then. It was different then.

[Hannah Bell]

169. ok, my misunderstanding.

imo, if you don't vaccinate, you'd BETTER deliberately expose your kid when he's young. better you get it young, because if you get it when you're older, the odds for serious complications are MUCH worse.

[Pithlet]

176. I guess that's where the rub for me is. That decision to not vaccinate.

To me, it still just makes so much more sense to simply vaccinate. You're still getting the protection from the serious complications. You're just getting it without the chicken pox symptoms, and without the added risks and suffering that the disease carries. And, they'll be much less likely to get shingles as an adult, to boot. Parents may worry and wring their hands over the what ifs of the vaccine. But the risk and complications and of chickenpox are well known. The attitude that it's a harmless childhood disease is wrong. It doesn't make sense to fret and worry about possible outcome of a well studied vaccine, yet poo poo a disease as a mere childhood affliction and discount the risks inherent in that. I do think that a parent who weighs the risks, and comes to the conclusion that the disease is a better risk? Is a parent that didn't come to that conclusion very thoughtfully or knowledgeably, and I'm putting it mildly. You and I will just have to disagree on that, I guess.

[Hannah Bell]

179. "The attitude that it's a harmless childhood disease is wrong."

not harmless, but 20 deaths/4 million cases is not so large. i'd guess the risk is equivalent to the flu, for young kids.

but we'll agree to disagree. thank you for your civility.

[Mind_your_head]

268. How much pharmaceutical stock do you own/have access to are the recipient of dividents, etc.?

Do you work for a pharmaceutical company?

Do you have any children? If so, what are their ages?

TIA,
M_Y_H

edit: typo

[uppityperson]

224. omg! Typos! I won't believe anything they have to say! THANK YOU for pointing out the typos.

Still haven't commented on whether or not you use seat belts, but still trying to make car accidents vs chicken pox problems an issue. Do you use seat belts since they weren't "normal" back int the days?

[Hannah Bell]

253. nah, just surprised to see two errors in first 3 sentences of "reputable" pub.

i already answered the question.

i use seatbelts. i use vaccines.

in the case of chickenpox vax, i don't see that the case for universal vax comes down hard on either side.

therefore, i don't see folks who do the parties as crazy or abusive.

particularly since, WITHIN THIS GENERATION, it was normal practice to try to expose kids young.

[uppityperson]

255. Thank you, saw the reply elsewhere also.

Writers are lazy, expect typos to get caught and don't even bother to check sometimes. Bugs me too but then I am anal about stuff like that. (off to spell check)

[girl gone mad]

156. Did you read your own link?

"One of the major concerns against such a move is that the jab itself can cause shingles later in life in the same way the disease can, when the body's naturally immunity weakens."

It seems you were claiming the opposite upthread, and stating that you couldn't find any verification that the vaccine could cause shingles.

[Hannah Bell]

157. He didn't read this, either:

Routine chicken pox vaccination has been available in America since the 1990s but FEW COUNTRIES IN EUROPE RECOMMEND IT


My understanding of the shingles issue is not simply that universal vaccination might increase the incidence, but also that reexposure to the virus (like you get from being with sick kids) may decrease it.

[Pithlet]

161. I'm a she, by the way. And for god's sake, I read it.

So, we should stop vaccinating simply because few countries in Europe recommend it? That's a good enough reason? Come on.

So, why on earth is the UK actually considering it then, in the face of all this horrible, horrible evidence? Could it be that some of the reasons they were worried about it actually never panned out?

[Hannah Bell]

162. Meaning most don't give it. (mea culpa; i didn't read YOUR post well. :>)

You also didn't read my posts well, as I didn't say "We shouldn't vaccinate".

I don't see the weight of evidence falling clearly into either camp: i don't know how many ways i can say it to get you to understand:

knowlegeable evaluators may come to different conclusions based on the same data.


Likewise, I don't find the people who are having chickenpox "parties" to be crazy, reckless, stupid or abusive.

[Pithlet]

172. It would seem you're attaching significance to the fact they don't give it.

When discussing the choice here in this country to assess the risk, I'm just not sure it's all that relevant. There could be many reasons they choose not to. But the fact is it's available here, and there's no hard evidence there's real significant risk posed that outweighs the risk of contracting chickenpox. The decision to not only forgo the vaccine, but to actually purposefully expose one's child to the disease just, to me, seems irresponsible at the very least. I don't get the reasoning or the rationale for it at all. It's not the same one that was used before the vaccine. It did make some sort of sense before. But it doesn't now.

[girl gone mad]

174. It's far riskier to contract chicken pox as a teenager or as an adult..

than to contract it in childhood.

The parents are smart to make sure their children get the virus at a time when the symptoms will be much milder, rather than risking severe illness and hospitalization at a later point.

[Pithlet]

181. I understand that. Why not simply vaccinate instead?

That way they don't also expose their child to the risks associated with chickenpox? Getting it earlier isn't an assurance there won't be complications. My case was very severe, and I was only 8 years old. I would never knowingly expose my children to a disease where there's even a slight chance they might suffer like I did. I don't think most other parents would, either. I think the notion that it's simply a harmless childhood disease is false. Sure, the odds are they'll just get an itchy rash and they'll be fine. But what if they don't? Yes, there are slight risks with the vaccine, as there are with any, but it's a matter of weighing the risk. It's virtually assured they'll have some sort of symptom with the disease, whereas it's almost as assured they won't with the vaccine. The chance they'll have a reaction is very slight. Why go with the sure thing? It doesn't make sense to me.

[Hannah Bell]

182. because they aren't you, just as england made a different call than the US,

using the same evidence.

[Pithlet]

185. Yes. But they didn't make the call because the vaccine was dangerous to individuals.

An individual here in America can't point to the decision in the UK and say "Hey, see? That means it's not safe!" All the UK's decision means is they're not sure it's beneficial to inoculate the whole population, so they haven't included it on their schedule, yet. But they do have it available there for people who want it. It's not evidence that parents who make the decision not to vaccinate are making the right call. I'm sure that if the UK decides to add it to their schedule that they're going to want all their parents to get it also. Because when there's a nationwide vaccination program, the more that opt out, the more it mucks it up for everyone else.

[girl gone mad]

189. I can't speak for these parents..

but the vaccine is still relatively new. We now know it requires at least one booster, even though when it was first marketed, Merck said one shot would provide sufficient immunity. There is a widespread belief among doctors that boosters may be required every 5 to 10 years for life. Adults have low compliance rates with booster programs, as evidenced by the tetanus booster, which most adults skip. This could result in pushing the disease into adulthood, where it is much riskier. There is also evidence that the vaccine could result in an increase in the number of cases of shingles, since continued exposure to the virus throughout life is thought to provide immunity to shingles. If this is the case, we are looking at an interesting conundrum where vaccination could actually be posing a greater health risk.

[Hannah Bell]

180. it is relevant in that their scientific establishment decided the benefit didn't outweigh the risk.

individuals might make the same judgement, on the same evidence.

[Pithlet]

184. No. Not necessarily.

How a government weighs the risks and benefits for a populations is bound to be different than how an individual does it. There could be any number of reasons, cost included, why other countries wouldn't include a particular vaccine. I think the two most important things to consider from an individual standpoint is the safety and efficacy itself. Whether or not a country opts to use it alone doesn't point to safety or efficacy. And neither seemed to be the main issue for the UK. It seemed mainly, as you say, to be a cost/benefit as it pertains to their entire population. Not as it relates to an individual. They didn't even ban the vaccine, so it isn't a safety issue. It's available. It's just not a part of the regular routine. So, I don't see how one would point to that as evidence that it isn't safe, and that it would be cause for concern, or that it wouldn't actually benefit an individual.

[Hannah Bell]

194. yes, but don't be pedantic. I think you understand the point perfectly well.

Two countries made different risk assessments.

Two individuals did too.

I'm comparing the process in both cases, not individuals to countries.

There are different minds in the world, do you understand? Other people aren't YOU, not everyone thinks like you, or has your experiences, or values the things you do. They have the same information you do, they choose differently because they weigh it differently.

[Pithlet]

159. Yes, I saw that.

So, news stories can't get it wrong? I'm sorry, but that's the only time I've ever seen it claimed.

[girl gone mad]

167. The vaccine contains live virus.

There is no evidence showing the rate of shingles to be any lower (or higher) in individuals who are given the chicken pox vaccine. There was one study showing a slightly reduced rate of shingles in immunocompromised children over the short term (less than 2 years from vaccination). There is also a vaccine available specifically for shingles. It is a much stronger version of the chicken pox vaccine and is said to reduce the rate of shingles by about half. Continued exposure to children with chicken pox is also known to reduce the rate of shingles in older populations.

My brother in law was vaccinated against chicken pox as a child, but developed a bad case of shingles on his face and in his eye last year.

[Pithlet]

188. I'm aware of that.

It's still much safer than deliberately giving your child chickenpox.

[girl gone mad]

191. You keep saying that the vaccine protects agains shingles..

which is not a factual claim.

Many believe the jury is still out on the vaccine. If we see an increase in adult cases of chickenpox or shingles in the next few decades, then it might not be considered the safer option.

[uppityperson]

223. Do you avoid seatbelts since we didn't use them in the old days?

Comparing getting chickenpox to driving is silly as those are not the 2 options. Everything has a risk, not using safety measures available to you is silly. Do you use seat belts? Even though, in the old days we it was "normal" to not?

[Hannah Bell]

241. no. i don't avoid vaccines either. you mistake my position.

[lynne]

262. I'm one of those who chose not to vaccinate their child for chicken pox -

- the vaccine had just come out and there was no long-term data on any ill-effects it might cause. I had two other children who had breezed through chicken pox (pre-vaccine availability) and had no reason to believe the third child wouldn't do so, too. He caught them at age 4 and did just fine. Not even one scar to show for it.

Vaccines are wonderful and my children always got all the mandatory ones. However, for normally mild childhood illnesses like chicken pox, I like to see about 15-20 years of data on any ill-effects within the public before giving it to my children.

[Mind_your_head]

272. The vaccine is not proven....and NO ONE knows how long it lasts.

Getting the disease at an early age insures immunity FOREVER!

on edit: and it's free (all the 'best/most important things' in life are...free, btw)

Sorry big corps/pharma....it's true. You've lost your focus/mission. Stockholder profits? pfffft.....what a sordid 'mission/goal'. You're like the spoiled child that had "so much" potential and then turned it all down for a worthless *dollar/euro/pound sterling/whatever* Very dissapointing and, ultimately, catastrophic.

[Mind_your_head]

271. The strong/smart/lucky too survived, didn't they?

Not everybody....but most of us did.

[LisaL]

198. The kid would get chicken pox-you don't think that's getting sick?

:eyes:

[conscious evolution]

69. For mumps also

At least when I was a kid.

[JCMach1]

71. Chicken Pox nearly killed me! It can be dangerous

Because I had no idea what my daughters' immunities would be, they got the vaccine.

[Liberty Belle]

74. A San Diego girl lost both legs, both arms and nearly her life to chicken pox

a few years ago. They had to amputate to save her organs from shutting down and killing her. It was a terribly tragic case, but shows the danger of this sort of thinking.

[polly7]

80. Ok, I had already posted once and deleted because I thought maybe

it was too personal to post and I had second thoughts and was afraid of getting back anything negative, but we lost our 7 year old to chickenpox just before immunizations were available in our area. He was cleared by the doctor to go back to school, was excited, happy, anxious to see his friends and seemed perfectly fine until recess and halfway into playing hide and seek, then just fell down, and was gone. There was nothing EMS or the emergency doctors could do. If only we had gone somewhere else and had him immunized.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Oh how awful

I am so sorry. :cry:

[renate]

208. I am so sorry

:cry:

There just aren't words. :hug:

[myrna minx]

220. Oh, I am so sorry.

This thread must be heartbreaking for you to read. :hug: I can't imagine what you have gone through.

[ismnotwasm]

76. Dumb

Really, really dumb

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. These parents should be charged with child abuse

This is insane.

[ShortnFiery]

93. I second that ...

Barking at the moon NUTS! :thumbsdown:

[Hannah Bell]

98. um - what do you think people did before 1995?

your overreaction is more insane.


"Prior to the introduction of vaccine in 1995 in the US (released in 1988 in Japan & Korea), there were around 4,000,000 cases per year in the U.S., mostly children, with typically 100 or fewer deaths. Though mostly children caught it, the majority of deaths (by as much as 80%) were among adults."


It was safer to get it as a kid than as a teen or adult - that's why parents PURPOSEFULLY exposed their kids.

Do you drive with children? 12,000 kids die each year from accidents, the majority r/t automobiles.

So I think we should charge people who drive with kids with child abuse, since their practice is much more likely to harm children.

4 million cases, 20 child deaths. Damn low odds.

[proud2BlibKansan]

192. Deliberately exposing children to a potentially fatal disease isn't child abuse?

Stop and think about that before you call ME insane.

A very good friend of mine almost died in May from the same virus that causes chicken pox. It went to his brain. He is in a nursing home now and will probably never fully recover. And yes, he had chicken pox as a kid.

It's downright stupid to play with this virus. And yes, IMO, stupidity equals child abuse in this case.

[Hannah Bell]

238. as i said, it's what most people did before 1995; i guess they were insane.

The reason for exposing young children was (is) that was by far the safest time to get the bug.

the vaccine is a LIVE, though attenuated, virus.

Which means it would not prevent cases like your friend's.

[LisaL]

199. It's safer get it as a kid than as adult?

And what do these parents do with their kids if the kids do get chicken pox? Do they quarantine them to make sure the kids don't infect adults?
Hey if someone exposes their kid on purpose, what about the rest of the population that doesn't want to be exposed?

[Hannah Bell]

256. yes, it is. that's why responsible parents, before 1995, tried to expose their kids

young - maybe not in "parties" (i suspect this is hyped), but by going over to sick cousin's house or whatever.

the vaccine only came out in 95, currently 80% coverage. for adults, risk of (re) contracting pox from infected kids no more than it ever was, probably less.

[girl gone mad]

170. That's crazy talk.

My son ended up getting chicken pox while he was on the waiting list to be vaccinated (there was a shortage at the time).

I was upset about it then, but now I am extremely grateful that he got the virus. Friends who were vaccinated have had to get boosters, though they were told immunity would last a lifetime. A classmate who was immunized in kindergarten ended up getting a very severe case of chicken pox in his teens. If I had to make the choice now to vaccinate or let my child get chicken pox, I would really be torn.

ETA: I think these parents are absolutely doing the right thing by making sure their children are exposed to the virus, since they have chosen not to vaccinate. It used to be a common illness, but the vaccine has reduced the opportunities for exposure.

From the LA Times:

Merck’s chickenpox vaccine Varivax not only loses its effectiveness after a while, but it also has changed the profile of the disease in the population, U.S. researchers reported Wednesday.

The study confirmed what doctors widely knew – that the vaccine’s protection does not last long. And with fewer natural cases of the disease going around, unvaccinated children or children in whom the first dose of the vaccine fails to work have been catching the highly contagious disease later in life, when the risk of severe complications is greater, they said.

“If you’re unvaccinated and you get it later in life, there’s a 20-times greater risk of dying compared to a child, and a 10 to 15 times greater chance of getting hospitalized,” said Jane Seward of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, who worked on the study.

The findings were reported fully for the first time in the March 15 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. I am not arguing the safety or effectiveness of the vaccine

My point is these parents deliberately exposed their children to a disease that can be fatal. That's abusive.

[dysfunctional press]

237. there's nothing new about this practice...get a grip already.

:eyes:

[Missy Vixen]

127. I'm their worst nightmare

I didn't just get chicken pox. I had chicken pox, mumps and measles. At the same time. I ended up in the hospital for almost three weeks when I was six. :scared:

I suppose the party idea might seem effective, but this stuff is nothing to screw around with, IMHO.

Julie

[1]

128. "Chicken Pox Parties" is that what the kids are calling it nowdays?

amazing...

[Lucian]

139. Isn't that considered biological warfare?

:shrug:

[Fleshdancer]

147. The only reason why I vaccinated my kid was out of fear of shingles later on

If the chicken pox vaccination didn't exist, I would have tried to expose my child to it early on the way my mom did for me when I was 5. I'm shocked at the amount of people in this thread who have never heard of chicken pox parties.

What I don't like is that I was told one shot would be enough when my daughter was a toddler. Six years later, I was told she needed another shot for it. Had I known at the beginning that it would take more than one shot to vaccinate my child from chicken pox, then I might not have done it. Without the time to research, I agreed to the second shot.

My daughter is now 8 yrs old and if I'm told she needs a 3rd shot, then I'll most likely opt out and do what I can to expose her to the chicken pox virus before she's old enough to die from it. I don't want her to be vaccinated her entire life against a virus that is somewhat harmless to children but may cause shingles later on in life. Anyone who has ever watched their child stabbed with needles would understand my logic.

[seabeyond]

197. i havent heard my kids need the second and third and both

doctors and schools have seen the shot record. i guess i need to call my doctor. i hated they did the shots. gonna fuck a whole lot up with this shit and all for greed. to save employers lost work time.

[McCamy Taylor]

148. Do they have methicillin resistent staph aureus parties for when they get pneumonia?

I know that chicken pox parties used to be the rule in the pre-vaccine days, but older kids esp. can die from the disease.

http://dermatology.about.com/cs/chickenpox/a/chickencomp.htm

Link about complications. Since another risk is bacterial secondary infection and since so many kids are carrying MRSA in their noses now, your child may get run of the mill chicken pox, and the sores may get infected and the oral antibiotics may not treat the infection and the child may end up quote ill with MRSA.

But go ahead and have fun at the chicken pox parties.

[Hippo_Tron]

149. I'm 21 and my parents exposed me when I was a child

I was right at the tail end of the no vaccine era I suppose given that they exposed me in 1993, as I recall, and the vaccine came out in 1995.

[LeftishBrit]

164. That's just vaccination in a rather less safe form!

[JeanGrey]

177. The problem with this is you can get them twice. I did.

Once at 10 and once at 17 and the second time almost killed me. I was out of school three weeks.

[Norrin Radd]

183. I had the cooties when I was a kid.

[Hannah Bell]

195. me too.

this very one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cootie_(game)

[Evoman]

202. Better than Chicken Pot Pie parties...I fucking hate chicken pot pie.

[Odin2005]

204. Ugh. This borders on child abuse.

There is a vaccine. Get it.

[Auggie]

207. Elder abuse too, if you factor in what can happen 60, 70 years in the future.

[lightningandsnow]

216. Precisely.

[lumberjack_jeff]

210. The vaccine is the live virus.

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/commoninfections/a/shingles_4.htm

"The vaccine is a live attenuated strain of the chickenpox virus," says Philip R. Krause, M.D., lead research investigator in the FDA's Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research. "However, it's a weaker form so it gives rise to a milder infection. But in the course of giving rise to this milder infection, it induces enough immunity to prevent people from getting the natural infection." It is estimated that the vaccine is between 75 and 85 percent effective in preventing chickenpox. "But the important thing," says Krause, "is that it is almost completely effective in preventing severe cases of chickenpox."
Now that we have a chickenpox vaccine, are shingles and PHN on their way out? Although the FDA hasn't evaluated the effects of the vaccine on shingles, Krause believes that "in the long term, if you can prevent enough people from getting the wild (natural) type of chickenpox, you're likely to see a beneficial effect on the incidence of shingles and post-herpetic neuralgia. But it may take several generations for this to happen."

There's a 15-25% chance that the child will still get the more severe natural infection even after having the vaccine, and no evidence that they'll be immune from shingles.

There's only a qualitative difference between immunizing children through the attenuated virus and the natural one. Natural is more severe but more effective at preventing future infections.

I have three children, born in 1991, 1993 and 1998. The older ones both had the natural virus (before the vaccine was available) the younger had the immunization at 18 months. At age 3 he was diagnosed with Autism.

I'm not convinced there's a connection, but there you have it. I do not see the decision to blanket immunize as being clear cut at all.

DU is schizophrenic. We are proud of our freethinking heritage and our distrust of big pharma, right up until the topic is immunizations, at which point anyone who doesn't take parenting advice from Pfizer is a child abuser.

[Phentex]

229. Very good points. I was wondering about this myself...

How different is it to give the child the vaccine vs. give the child the chance to catch them on his/her own?

My mom exposed me to my poxy sister but I didn't get them. I had been accidentally exposed several times over the years but never got them. I know people who've gotten them more than once! Even after vaccinated.

Later bloodwork as an adult shows I've never had them. Still, I don't want the vaccine now.

Nothing is clear cut.

[Mind_your_head]

230. Yep.

Makes one wonder who is financing this board, doesn't it?

It's surely not *me* and my giving $10-20/year, when I'm having a "good" year, that is. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

212. Yet Further Proof As To How Absolutely Asinine Some People Can Be.

Bunch of dumbass zealots.

[Stuckinthebush]

214. Stupid

I had shingles this past year. Nasty stuff.

My kids definitely had the vaccine.

I don't understand the irrational fear about vaccines. I guess it is akin to the irrational fear of flying. Sure planes crash but it is very rare. Sure there are some children who experience bad side effects of vaccines but that is very rare.

[ItNerd4life]

218. This is the natural method, it makes perfect sense to most parents

The key word being parents. Most people who are opposed to this don't have kids.

You know, some parents do have a clue about what is best for their kids.

Of course, there are people who will compare chickenpox to polio or aids or some stupid analogy like that.

[uppityperson]

225. Most people who get their kids immunized are parents.

How can you get your kids immunized if you aren't a parent?

[carlyhippy]

219. mothers used to let the kids play together, but it wasn't a big production number

much less called a pox party, how stupid! I wasn't one of those mothers, I kept my kids away from sick kids, knowing full well once they hit the public schools they were going to catch it all anyway.

[pstokely]

221. Who here got the vaccine (and a what age)?

I had a it as a kid, so I guess I don't need it. I guess these parties would routine for Gen Xers like the South Park creators.

[uppityperson]

222. Serious question to anyone planning on this. What will you do to make sure your kid(s) are cared for

during the 2 weeks they need to stay home from school or daycare? Schools and daycares generally say children must stay home for the 2 wks from first sore to all scabbed over. What are you planning on doing with your child(ren) during that time period?

Taking them to work and exposing people there, or to the store when you go get groceries, those are both bad ideas.

When my child got chickenpox, I was lucky enough to mostly work opposite times from my partner, so one of us could stay home, ended up each missing only a couple days of work.

[Mind_your_head]

228. Work should NEVER supplant your obligation to your family.

That includes their health, their sickness (where they are developing immunities to future disease). PUT YOUR FAMILY FIRST! No one else but YOU, the worker, will PUT YOUR FAMILY FIRST!

[uppityperson]

231. What if you will get fired if you don't go to work?

What if you will be homeless? While I agree with you, and have traded off many things for my family, there are people who have little in reserve, are stretched as far as they can go.

But my question still remains for those who get their kids chickenpox rather than the vaccine. What is the plan for the 2 weeks they need to be kept isolated?

[Mind_your_head]

233. You get fired!

and then work hard and long for "single-payer health coverage"!(not UNIVERSAL health coverage, btw)

SINGLE-PAYOR health coverage

[uppityperson]

234. In the meantime you and sick kid are out on the street.

I had a friend leave her sick kid with me while she worked crap for wages job so could afford a place for them to live and basic food to eat.

She was lucky in that I agreed to do this, my kid already had chickenpox. For some there are not good choices. For those who CHOSE to expose their kid(s), they need to have a plan in place beyond "lie" or "get fired".

[Mind_your_head]

236. FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT

BEFORE you're (and *I*) am out on the street.

That's where we are all headed. It's OBVIOUS.

[uppityperson]

240. That was random.

[Mind_your_head]

243. No, it's not random.

[Best_man23]

232. I'm for the Parties

My wife did not get Chicken Pox when she was a kid and went for the vaccine last year. Our doctor told her that, normally he does not give the CP vaccine to kids unless they are preparing to enter public school and have not contracted CP. He gives the vaccine to adults who did not contract CP as kids with the caveat that they need to receive regular booster shots.

Doc mentioned there were still questions regarding how long the vaccine would be effective.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

235. I went to plenty of Chicken Pox parties

in my day they didn't have many vaccines!

[LisaL]

265. I've never gone to any chicken pox parties.

In fact I have no idea whether I had chicken pox or not, but I sure as hell didn't go to any chicken pox parties.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

267. I had them all

the usual childhood ones - German Measles, chicken pox, mumps.

[TwilightGardener]

242. Dumb. Why court trouble and misery for your children? Get them vaccinated and

stop spreading the fucking disease to the rest of the population.

[Mind_your_head]

244. You don't understand the issue......

and are just giving a "drive-by" opionion.

(Not that I've ever been guilty of that.....of course I have done so. Doesn't make said 'drive-by' opinion "good" or anywhere near accurate)

Peace,
M_Y_H

[ejpoeta]

246. we all got chicken pox at the same time and got it over with.

my oldest sister never did have chicken pox though, from my understanding. don't they have a vaccine now? i believe my daughter had it, as it was required for her to be able to go to school. the sad thing is that i got a note about it and called the doctor to have her vaccinated and found she already had been. so many shots i don't even know which ones she had. geesh.

[uppityperson]

249. This is about people who don't want the vaccine, but would rather their kids get chickenpox.

[ejpoeta]

251. i know that. i am saying i hadn't even realized my daughter had HAD the vaccine.

they do try to scare us about the dangers of chicken pox. i survived. i never heard of anyone dying from it. i guess it can be pretty bad in rare cases, but what are the odds?

[nini]

247. this is nothing new

parents wanted their kids to get it as a kid since it's tolerated more than as an adult.


Getting it as an adult is much more dangerous.

[Mind_your_head]

274. It's not more 'dangerous' as an adult, it's more "painful" (not the right word)......

.....adults are more vocal about what they are experiencing, perhaps?

[slackmaster]

250. My brother had a very bad case of post-chicken pox encephalitis in 1968

It was pretty scary. People do die of it.

If I had kids now, I'd go the vaccination route.

As for me, I contracted chicken pox the old fashioned way in 1963, as I did with mumps and measles. I had only three lesions of CP, and mild cases of the others.

[Mind_your_head]

275. You had mumps?

Are your sure you want to admit to that?

:rofl:

[JuniperLea]

258. When I was a kid... again with my kids...

When my kids came down with the CP's, and word got out, five different neighbors came knocking at my door to see if Johnny and Susie could come over and play with Abraham, Martin and John. It's what you do!

One of the neighbors was planning a trip to Europe a couple of months down the road and wanted to get this out of the way before the vaca date.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

259. That would be practicing medicine without a license.

:shrug: