Toyota, Ford spar over hybrid m.p.g. claims

[DainBramaged]

A feud is simmering between Ford and Toyota over Ford's claim that its Fusion gasoline-electric hybrid out this spring will be the most fuel-efficient midsize car at 41 m.p.g. in town, 36 on the highway.

Toyota says its higher-mileage Prius hybrid (48/45 m.p.g.) also is midsize -- as defined by the U.S. government. U.S. emissions and fuel-economy regulations judge a car's size category by its combined passenger and cargo space.

Fusion has 111.6 cubic feet of combined space; Prius, 110.6. Both are over the federal threshold of 110 for midsize and below the 120 mark for full-size cars.

Fusion is about 800 pounds heavier than Prius, 16 inches longer and 4 inches wider, but the federal regulations don't take those factors into account.

"We are reviewing Ford's mileage claims for Fusion," Toyota Motor Sales spokesman Joe Tetherow says. He notes that the redesigned 2010 Prius, to be unveiled at the Detroit auto show next week, also gets better mileage than the Fusion. The new Prius will be larger than today's, but Toyota hasn't given specifics.

Ford contends the more logical comparisons with the Fusion hybrid are Toyota's Camry hybrid, 33/34 m.p.g., and Nissan's midsize Altima sedan, rated 35/33.

"We've been pretty clear, probably annoyingly clear, to Toyota that we're comparing Fusion to Camry," Ford spokesman Mark Truby says.

The brewing dust-up is significant because it threatens a key point that Ford wants to use to market the car, as well as to improve the company's environmental image. And it signals that auto industry competition is intensifying, as companies fight for slices of an evaporating sales pie.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090109/BUSINESS01/901090343


Saved by zero.............:sarcasm:

[billyoc]

1. "Toyota says its higher-mileage Prius hybrid (48/45 m.p.g.) also is midsize"

Midsize must be short for Midget-size.

[DainBramaged]

2. They can claim whatever they want, but marketing has been their success

convincing they make a 'line' of fuel efficient vehicles, when in reality, they make three, Prius, Corolla, and Yurass, uh, Yaris. The rest mirror ALL of the GM and Ford models to a T. Oh, and the Prius is NO bigger than a Cobalt, period.

[Fumesucker]

3. You missed a line in the OP..

Fusion has 111.6 cubic feet of combined space; Prius, 110.6. Both are over the federal threshold of 110 for midsize and below the 120 mark for full-size cars.

[billyoc]

4. I didn't miss my eye with my knee trying to get into one of the little tin can deathtraps, though.

[Fumesucker]

9. Heh, biased much? n/t

[SteelPenguin]

18. You must be enormous

I'm a bigger than average guy in both height and weight and I was surprised at how roomy the Prius felt on the inside. It definitely looks smaller than it is on the inside.

[jsamuel]

24. there is a bar under the seat, you can pull that to move it back

:)

[MelissaB]

27. My brother is 6'1 and rides comfortably in mine.

How big are you?

[DainBramaged]

5. People measure a car by it's physical size, not Federal standards

Park the Fusion next to a Camry, they are the same size. Notice Toyota is not trying to say the Camry isn't a mid-sized car. They are just trying their smoke and mirrors act yet again. And when the Cruize replaces the Cobalt next year with about 42 mpg from a gas engine only, they'll scream some more.

[Fumesucker]

8. You don't drive on the outside of a car..

You drive it from the inside, that's what counts in terms of size and the difference between a Fusion and a Prius with respect to interior room is less than one percent

[DainBramaged]

10. Yup, you bet, absolutely, no doubt, if you and Toyota say it's mid-sized

well by golly, it must be.

[Fumesucker]

11. Not Toyota, the Federal Government..

I've already copied and pasted the line showing that.

[DainBramaged]

12. Yup you bet, and Toyota doesn't like Ford encroaching on their hallowed ground

but I can see that the lines are being drawn here.

[Statistical]

16. What? Did you even read the article.

Fusion has 111.6 cubic feet of combined space; Prius, 110.6. Both are over the federal threshold of 110 for midsize and below the 120 mark for full-size cars.

So the FEDERAL GOVT (i.e the "feds") define a mid-sized car as 110-119.9 cubic feet.
This def has been known a long time, much longer than even the Prius has been around.

The Prius has 110.6 cubic feet of interior space.
Per the FEDERAL GOVT definition it is a mid-sized car.

The Fusion has 111.6 cub feet of interior space.
An amazing 1 whole extra cubic foot (<1%) more than the Prius.
Per the FEDERAL GOVT definition it is a mid-sized car.

So Prius & Fusion are both midsized cars. Not because Ford says so. Not because Toyota says so. It is because they both meet the def of a mid-sized car by the FEDERAL GOVT. Now if the Prius was 109.999999999999 cubic feet then Ford would have a legitimate argument.

A feud is simmering between Ford and Toyota over Ford's claim that its Fusion gasoline-electric hybrid out this spring will be the most fuel-efficient midsize car at 41 m.p.g. in town, 36 on the highway.

Toyota says its higher-mileage Prius hybrid (48/45 m.p.g.) also is midsize -- as defined by the U.S. government. U.S. emissions and fuel-economy regulations judge a car's size category by its combined passenger and cargo space.

Prius: 48/45 mpg
Fusion: 41/36 mpg

Ford is claiming the Fusion is the most fuel-efficient midsized car on the market. That clearly is NOT true. Ford could claim it is the most efficient mid sized car above a certain size (that excludes the Prius) or weighing more than a certain weight (that excludes the Prius) but it is NOT the most efficient midsized car.
Expect Toyota to sue.
Midsize is a technical definition. It is based on the govt standards. Clearly the Prius is more efficent. Ford will back down or they will lose in court.

Personally I will never buy a Prius. I think they are too small, however since the Fusion has <1% more space I doubt it will seem massively larger. My next car might be the Chevy Volt if it lives up to the "hype".

[Obamanaut]

36. And based on performance recently, the reason we should give

credence to the federal report is...

[DainBramaged]

40. It's amazing how some folks always revert to a Government statistic

to make themselves and the agenda they bring viable.

:hi:

[FarCenter]

19. The switch to electrical drive trains should optimize interior space

With electrical drive trains, it should be possible to build cars with greater interior space for a given outside dimensions.

This will result in vehicles that are more manuverable in crowded streets and easier to park.

Front and rear overhang are a disadvantage.

[DainBramaged]

34. Crush is the key, and front ends will never shrink, nor engines/motors removed

because they act as buffers to the passenger compartments. The bay will continue to be filled with gear long past when I take a dirt nap.

[FarCenter]

37. The engine makes engineering the crush more difficult

The crush is best engineered by controlling the collapse of structural members.

The engine is a problem because it must be kept from moving back into the passenger compartment.

Does the Porsche 911 or other rear engined cars have an issue with front crush?

I think that they have more of an issue with rear crush, since they also have to guard against intrusion from that direction.

With electrics, more of the power train can be flattened so that it moves under the passenger compartment.

[trof]

7. I'm 6'2", 235, and my Prius is very comfortable.

Been on 3000 mile road trip...TWICE!
It's mid sized enough for us.
;-)

[blendermax]

28. Not surprised

Toyota seems to make some very roomy small cars. My 6 foot plus neighbor has a 2005 Scion Xb, says he feels very comfortable driving around in it. Which is pretty amazing, when kids in my neighborhood have nicknamed him 'Jessie Ventura' because of his size and resemblance to the wrestler.
.

[mucifer]

31. My prius is a lot roomier than my corolla was. I wouldn't call it a compact car.

[trof]

39. We went from a Grand Caravan to the Prius.

Sure there's a lot more room in the Caravan, but the Prius is entirely adequate.
And it feels SO GOOD every time I fill it up for 6 or 7 bucks.
:-)

[DainBramaged]

6. Toyota will call Coker and Shelby to hold a press conference to say that Ford should be sanctioned

those two scumbags are their lap dogs.

[ogneopasno]

13. The Prius was one of the most awkward cars I've ever driven. And I'm not going to get a family

of four plus two or three hockey bags in there. Nah gah hah, as Bush Sr. used to say.

[madrchsod]

14. one should`t question perfection

there`s other opinions out there but why do they matter......:rofl: oh well, what do we know

[depakid]

15. "we're comparing Fusion to Camry"

No, you're attempting to bamboozle the public through equivocal marketing- what else is new?

[DainBramaged]

17. Like Toyota has't been guilty of that for the past 20 years?

:eyes:

[depakid]

41. I was in the states this summer and watched the various ads

that bent over backwards to tout "best of and such class" in an attempt to cover up the fact that the mileage ratings were poor.

These sorts of deals are lame no matter who does them.

The point is to build the most efficient vehicles and not get into this hair splitting.

[flvegan]

20. Ford is succeeding. Car & Driver comparo puts it against the Camry, et al.

2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid vs. Camry Hybrid, Altima Hybrid, and Malibu Hybrid

Toyota has been the world leader in this style of hybrid, and the Camry operates very much like the now-famous Prius, albeit with upsized components appropriate to the dimensions and weight of this much larger sedan. For its Altima hybrid, Nissan licensed Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive technology, so the Camry and Altima operate similarly, even though each relies on the automaker’s own engine.

While Toyota wears the hybrid halo, Ford mostly got yawns for the hybrid system it introduced in the 2005 Escape SUV, even though it was a full hybrid capable of Prius-like engine-off propulsion. Now, five model years later, the latest evolution of Ford’s hybrid thinking appears in the 2010 Fusion.

Never mind the high price of sea bass and the low price of gas, this calls for a comparison test. Which of these four carmakers builds the best family-hauling four-door hybrid?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/sedans/2010_ford_fusion_hybrid_vs_camry_hybrid_altima_hybrid_and_malibu_hybrid_comparison_test

No spoiler from me, you have to click the link to see who wins. You might be surprised.

[JVS]

21. Car and Driver likes to shill for Detroit though, so I'm skeptical.

Unless a BMW is involved, then the BMW will win.

[SmileyRose]

22. Toyota is FLAT OUT LYING.

They are playing games with the numbers.

2005 Prius 60 city/ 51 freeway interior space 96.2 CF plus cargo 16.2 CF (only if you put the rear seats down)
2009 Prius 48 city/ 45 freeway interior space 96.2 CF plus cargo 14.4 CF (if you put the rear seats down)

2009 Fusion interior space is 100.4 CF plus 15.4 in the trunk. Meaning you get all 5 adults with the touted interior space. You will lose some cargo space with the hybrid.

In order to get 110.6 CF of interior space you only have a 2 person car with Prius. Fusion Hybrid has 111+ CF interior space WITH 5 adults.

BTW notice the massive drop in MPG in just 3 years.

[bullwinkle428]

23. There was no "massive drop" - they just revised the test standards

for ALL cars on the market. Take a look at any car going from 2007 to 2008, and you'll see the same relative drop in fuel economy. Here is some further clarification:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

[Statistical]

25. Toyota isn't lying. The govt sets the standard. It isn't that hard of a concept

The govt says a "midsized car" is one that has 110 CF including all cargo spaces. Period.

Now maybe that is a "dumb" def but that is the def of a midsized car.
Maybe the govt should revise the stats but as of today that is what a midsize car is.
You obviously think that is a foolish way to classify cars but that doesn't make Toyota a liar.
The government set the rules and Toyota built a car that meets those rules.

Right now today per fed def of a midsized car
The Prius is a midsized car.
The Fusion is a midsized car.

Every couple years the fed govt revises the stats.
Maybe they will revise midsize to be total CF with 4 passengers seated.
In that case the Prius will be a compact and the Fusion WOULD BE the most-efficent midsized vehicle.

Until that happens Toyota is RIGHT. The Prius by FEDERAL GOVT def is a midsize.
I agree it is a very small midsize but it is a midsized vehicle.
It is also the most efficient midsie. The Fusion is larger midsize. It looks like a nice vehicle but to make it larger they had to make it heavier and it is NOT the most efficient midsize. Period.

Toyota will hold the line. The definitions are exact. The Prius is a midsize.
You can argue it "shouldn't be" but it isn't your call and it isn't Fords call either.
Until the govt says the Prius is NOT a midsize; it is.

Now Ford is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Rather than say "Fusion is the most efficient midsize" which is a lie they can say:
"Fusion with average combined mpg of 41 is MORE efficient than Toyota Camry, the Nissan something, then Honda something, etc".

[SmileyRose]

29. Edmunds, Kelly, Vehix, JD Power, US news all list Prius as "compact" - Toyota never balked

Yes, it is on this list of midsized cars. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass/Midsize_Cars2008.shtml

However, Toyota has from the start marketed the car as a compact and has not brought even a single suit against a car reviewer listing it as a compact. Ford has a case - regardless of the official US government definition. Toyota itself has had no problem defining Prius in the marketplace as a compact.

Toyota wants it both ways and I'm glad one of the other car makers is going to take them to task for that. It will be interesting to see how this case shapes up.

[DainBramaged]

30. Toyota, if we can get away with it, we will.

Oh yeah, Prius is just dandy lots of space. No one will admit that, because the trunk is a drawer for your briefcase. But don't go making any claim against god ToyHonNis around here, oh noes.

[blendermax]

32. Hmm, that's odd

The critics seem to have nothing but praise for the Prius interior trunk space.


"Inside, the Prius has much to crow about. At 44 cubic feet, the rear seat pegs the average of that 10-car sedan group, and the hybrid's hatch swallows 16 cubes, besting the sedan average by one."
-- Car and Driver

"The big rear hatch opening can swallow a 25-inch TV with no problem." -- Kelley Blue Book

"It may look small, but the well-packaged and airy interior is spacious for passengers and cargo alike...The backseat offers ample room for adults and rear-facing infant seats, while the 14.4-cubic-foot rear hatchback trunk can accommodate several roller suitcases or a double stroller. Plus, the folding seatbacks provide an uninterrupted cargo area that most sedans can't match." -- Edmunds.com

www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2008/review.html

[DainBramaged]

33. Edmunds, never knocked anyone who advertised with them.

Know what, I hope the Ford kicks Toyota's ass, and they should just stop being bitchy about this. Toyota is acting like Republicans. The Focus is the same size as the Camry, and Toyota is worried about their little perch, but with hybrid sales in the toilet, I guess they have to grasp at all the straws they can.

[blendermax]

26. Competition is good for the marketplace

without Toyota's foresight and presence, would a company like Ford even have considered building a hybrid?

Probably not.

[TommyO]

35. Ford has been doing hybrid R&D for quite some time now

They were doing it independently from Toyota and their development and patents were similar leading to a cross-licensing agreement between the two companies.

[donco6]

38. I like my Ford Escape hybrid.

I'm getting 32 mpg - OK, not 48, but it's a small SUV with 4WD that I need for the mountains. I'm very happy with it.