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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:44 PM
Original message
What Liberals Could Learn From Anarchists
I was hesitant to post this thread because I worried that, if it did not sink like a stone, it would turn into another cycle of endless infighting. And that's the first thing I want to talk about. It seems that every time two of you liberals have a disagreement, it becomes a vicious fight.

(And I say "you liberals," when I am among liberals, but it is also "you anarchists" when I am among anarchists, and "you pacifists" when I am among pacifists. The only group with which I allow "you" and "me" to become "Us" is Madwomen. We Madwomen are a proud tribe.)

Now, sometimes I spend time with liberals, and sometimes I spend time with anarchists. Some circles of anarchists get infiltrated by police, and others seem to fill up with bored people who want to destroy things but have no real interest in contributing anything useful. But the anarchist circles I spend time in tend not to attract those types. There's less infighting among my anarchist friends than there is among the liberals I know, even though anarchists, almost by definition, are more anti-authoritarian. I think it is because capitalism is a system of competition, which liberals seek to reform, and anarchists seek to abolish entirely and replace with a system of peer-to-peer cooperation. So here's a question for you: Are you, liberals, simply working together for political causes, or are you on the same side as human beings? The anarchists definitley believe that they are on the same side as human beings. They consider each other comrades. If I called one of you my comrade, you would probably laugh at me, not trying to be mean, but assuming that it was a joke. Well, it's not. The anarchists I know discuss their disagreements more civily, because they assume that ultimatley, they are on the same side of some greater struggle. It might benefit you to do the same.

Another thing: I've heard liberals say, "We were going to have a rally but we couldn't get a permit." Anarchists say, "We knew we were going to get rubber bullets shot at us but we decided to have a protest anyway." I don't say that you should imitate their property-destruction tactics, but non-violently facing down hostile authorities is an admirable thing to do.

And among liberals, I have talked about our personal lives, and I have talked about global politics. Among anarchists, I have talked about underlying philosophies that connect the two. A benefit of this more holistic approach to world events: the poverty of some, the comfortable alienation of others- is that, in discussions of how we can most effectivley help each other, differences in privelege must be acknowledged. When someone brings up the effects of racism, they are taken seriously, and there is talk about how we can be good allies against a biased system. There is no cry of, "Shut up! You're being divisive!"

Now, if you're still reading this, thank you for not responding angrilly to the title alone without considering the rest of the post. I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I don't want you to think that this should be a simple, one-way change. I also think that anarchists could learn a few things from pacifists, about teaching ordinary people how to use their own power, rather than just resisting the "Powerful Few". And I think that the pacifists who I spend time with, mostly Christians, could learn a few things from atheists. And what if the gay-rights movement could learn the community organizing skills of housing rights activists? And what if all the organizations of the homeless suddenly took up the anti-disablist movement's slogan of, "NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT US!"? See, I'm no Buddhist, but I do think that we really need to awaken from the illusion of our seperateness.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Respond angrily? When I saw the header, I thought "about time!"
Thanks for posting!

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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. This liberal anarchist says K&R!
Like any other group, the majority of anarchists are non-violent.

And we are trying to think outside the box, because a comfy box is still a box for all that. You are right. We don't need authority, we need peer-to-peer communication.

I keep thinnking of RAWilson's Snafu principle, that communication is only possible between equals.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's a poem that your anarchist comrades might enjoy:
"Already I can see our golden future
when the state will be crowned;
Socialist policemen will crowd every corner
From the president on his throne
To the sheriff tightening his rope
-All will be socialists
What do you say to such a happy prospect?"
David Edelstadt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Edelstadt
http://www.armenianhouse.org/blackwell/david-edelstadt.html

pnorman
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Hey, thanks.
Can't believe I never heard of that guy before. :hi:
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I had first seen that poem many years ago.
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 06:07 PM by pnorman
It was in a book entitle: "World of Our Fathers: The Journey of the East European Jews to America and the Life They Found and Made". It stuck in my memory, so a few years ago I tried to find it again on the internet. But I couldn't tease out of my memory, the proper keywords to make a successful search. I've GOT to have it, so I ordered the book again from Amazon ("used but good" at a reasonable price). I had to go through about 3/4 of that (LARGE) book to find it! The book itself was well worth re-reading, and as it turned out was necessary, since the poem wasn't even locatable by search engine!

Idly Googling after my posting here, I found this at Amazon: "The Poetics of Anarchy: David Edelshtat's Revolutionary Poetry". It's a little pricey, but I put it in the cart for later deciding.

pnorman
On edit: Here are a few more useful links I came upon while Googling away on that topic:
http://ksl.nettlau.org/2z35d2
and
http://www.deadanarchists.org/
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Political_Junkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you, Comrade,
"And among liberals, I have talked about our personal lives, and I have talked about global politics. Among anarchists, I have talked about underlying philosophies that connect the two. A benefit of this more holistic approach to world events: the poverty of some, the comfortable alienation of others- is that, in discussions of how we can most effectivley help each other, differences in privelege must be acknowledged. When someone brings up the effects of racism, they are taken seriously, and there is talk about how we can be good allies against a biased system. There is no cry of, 'Shut up! You're being divisive!'" that needed to be said. :toast:
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R for my fellow anarchist comrades nt
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Strathos Donating Member (713 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm ALL FOR fighting the rethugnicans exactly as they like to fight
DIRTY, NASTY and LOUD AND MEAN!!

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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. SAME HERE!
:headbang:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. Class is a huge divide between the various constituencies of "the Left". We are NOT all in this
together, and I think that's clear every other friday.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Class is a huge problem
Acceptance of misinformation is another huge one. True Anarchists often get it better because the system burned them at one time, and the scar never went away. In contrast a liberal often scoff at an honest appraisal of how bad things are.

Here's a good example: Carlin.

"It's a big club...and you ain't in it! You and I are not in the 'Big Club.'"

Liberal: "What? I can make as much money as they can! He doesn't know what he's talking about."
Anarchist: "Damn Straight."
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I know more 'conservatives' willing to talk Class than 'liberals'
It's a shame
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Okay, let me address this before it turns ugly.
I can't guarantee that saying something will prevent a flamewar, but here's my opinion:
You're absolutley right. It's the elephant in the room called Who Is Hoarding The Bread. It needs to be addressed, urgently. Here are some things I think that people of the middle class can do to act as allies to people of the working class:
1. Do not associate intelligence with class. Politicians sometimes do this when they talk about "intellectual elites," but the truth is that how smart you are has nothing to do with how much money you make.
2. Don't buy into "language supremacy". While people of all economic situations can be smart, not all of them have equal access to education, so it must be acknowledged that people who point out problems using simple words may have ideas that are just as good as, or better than, the ideas of people who have been trained to use "professional" language.
3. Don't assume that a college-neccesary career is "preferable" to a trade or blue-collar job.
4. When somebody talks about having experienced bias, LISTEN.

There are probably more, but I hope these four will create an environment where people will be open-minded enough to make space for more.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. So true.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you for your concern.

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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Oh, no...
Thank you for actually taking the time to address all of the points that I made rather than responding with a meaningless line of snark.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. .
:rofl:
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. What's to address?

The liberals I know understand how to protest, be inclusive, unite their causes, talk to one another civilly, etc.

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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. That's good.
There are also liberals who aren't like that. Look sometime when someone starts a thread about racism; a lot of people get ugly about it and fights break out because people don't want to acknowledge that there's still a problem. I wish it didn't happen but it does.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Ok, but there are anarchists who are divisive, contrary, and mean spirited too.


The few self-proclaimed anarchists I know delight in calling themselves assholes.

I'm pretty sure that if there were as many anarchists on a forum as there are liberals on this forum, you'd see much of the same conflict.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'd like to hear more about these Madwomen you speak of! k+r, n/t
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Okay, it's kinda like this...
Don't think this is all we're about; we're still interested in politics at large, peace, justice and all that. But we're also kind of challenging what sanity means. Many of us have been diagnosed mentally ill, but we think that things like manic depression, schizophrenia, autism are natural variations that can be dangerous, but can be gifts if managed properly. We also think that our own sickness is often just a healthy response to a sick society. We want a mental health system that is more respectful of our rights, isn't bought by drug industries (contrary to popular belief, this does not make us anti-psychiatry), and isn't sexist (as in, "angry men are heroic, angry women are crazy.").
:hi:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Not bought by drug industry, isn't sexist and ...
... not a cult like the $cientologists?

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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. ?
Who's not a cult? Us or mental health professionals? Many of them are corrupt, but I wouldn't call them a cult. We're definitley not a cult. We don't want everyone to suddenly go off of their meds or anything, we just don't want them to be forced on people.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. ...
$cientologists are completely against mental health care.

They're the cult I was talking about.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R for an awesome, thought-provoking post!
:thumbsup:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. Where do I sign up?
K&R
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. Nice. I'll K&R that.
Very practical, well thought out, well done thread. Crispini reviews: This Post: Two thumbs up! :evilgrin:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. I have little use for anarchists.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
29. K&R
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thanks, everybody
for a thread that went better than expected. :hi:
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