It's clear that Obama has surrounded himself with conservatives

[mudesi]

There is absolutely no disputing the clear fact that Obama's administration is going to be composed by conservatives. Some of them are social conservatives, some of them are corporate conservatives, and some of them are both. A lot of them are DLC shills (Hillary Clinton their leader) as well.

So here is the fundamental question: How will Obama himself govern? I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to surround oneself with opposing views, if in fact Obama himself does oppose their views, and that's the key sticking point here. Will Obama take their opinions and advice into consideration and then ultimately choose to do the right thing? The right thing here being to respectfully disagree with them?

Obama has a chance to really change things for the better. There has never been a greater opportunity. Conservatism in America is hanging on by a thread after the last 8 years of Bush, and Obama can either catch it or let it fall. I certainly hope that his administration is a case of keeping your enemies closer than your friends. Because I want to see

- Universal, government funded, single payer health care
- Gay marriage
- Gun licensing and registration, federally, which would be the only way it'd work
- Election reform - PAPER AND PENCIL
- Government investment in green industry, taxation of polluters

and other liberal policies.

He can do it if he has the courage.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. This is good

Where on earth did you come up with THAT idea?

[LisaM]

2. How about paper and PEN?

Because I think if people voted with a pencil, the chances of tinkering would be high.

[StreetKnowledge]

3. Conservatism isn't hanging by a thread

It's just that both parties are infested with them. Obama was elected by us and now he's ignoring us. Big shocker. :eyes:

[pnwmom]

27. Obama was elected not by "us," whoever "us" is, but by hundreds of millions

of Americans covering a fairly wide range of the political spectrum.

And he needed that landslide to prevail at all.

[bluestateguy]

4. Who?

Solis? Clinton? Panetta? Holder? Chu?

Somebody is not a "conservative" just because they do not tout every single part of the Left's orthodoxy.

[Sebastian Doyle]

32. By the same token, someone is not "progressive" just because they're pro-choice

So in what other way is Hillary Clinton remotely progressive?

Foreign policy? Yeah right :nuke:

Economic policy? NAFTA "free" :eyes: trader all the way.

Health care? Mandatory corporatism, not TRUE reform.

[Democrats_win]

5. More liberal please. BIG change: stop giving stimulus money to free (to fraud) enterprises.

Instead, let the government run the programs like they did during the last Republican-caused depression.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

6. Bah bahbla wabbah.

Lurk hurder bah blawabah bin zabbah! Me! MEEEEEEEEEEE!

There is absolutely no disputing the clear fact that Obama's administration is going to be composed by conservatives.

Why? Cause you said it?

Some of them are social conservatives, some of them are corporate conservatives, and some of them are both. A lot of them are DLC shills (Hillary Clinton their leader) as well.


Ralph Nader, is that you?

So here is the fundamental question: How will Obama himself govern?

Oh, screw this crap. You've already come to your conclusions, and stop pretending to be hypothesising about how things MIGHT be. You're doing nothing but forcing your opinion onto others and hiding behind a bunch of rhetorical blah.

[mudesi]

25. I'm doing what?

Enlighten me. How does one "force an opinion onto others"?

I certainly expressed my opinion, which I thought was the purpose of a discussion board.

Why? Cause you said it?

No, because it's true.

[yardwork]

31. Pst. You interfered with groupthink. No criticism of Dear Leader, not even mild criticism.

There will be consequences.

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. A lot of the things you want Obama specificlly opposed during the campaign

- Universal, government funded, single payer health care
- Gay marriage
- Gun licensing and registration, federally, which would be the only way it'd work

If you wanted those things, you should have voted for someone else.

[saracat]

15. This is true. No one wants to admit that though. They insist he is a liberal.

I say he isn't and has never been. He is a moderate/ conservative Dem IMHO.

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. Many DUers projected thier own beliefs onto Obama rather than learning his real policy stands and

then became outraged after the election when they learned the truth.

[Horse with no Name]

21. Yep. n/t

[Kingofalldems]

23. Lieberman not sure whether Obama was a Commie or not

And he's your boy , no? :shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. No, he is not my boy. You must be projecting your own preferences

[Cid_B]

44. One of the truest things I have read here...

nt

[Horse with no Name]

22. Hey there Saracat

Always nice to see you around.:hug:

[saracat]

29. Hugs to you too Horse!

How ya doing? :hug:

[cali]

8. only in bizarro world or on counterpunch planet

He's surrounded himself with virtually no conservatives. His picks are centrists and liberals.

[rudy23]

9. My big concern--if he wants opposing views, where are the people to the LEFT who will challenge him?

Does he only want to be challenged by people to the right of himself?

Somehow I have a hard time buying that he considers himself the lefty that needs to be balanced out by DLCers. His language has been far too centrist for that to be plausible, to me.

[pnwmom]

28. Michelle. n/t

[saracat]

10. Obama doesn't "oppose" their views. He has always been a moderate to conservative Dem.

He is only a "liberal" in some fantasies that some hold close.

[cali]

12. lol. Obama is pretty much a standard liberal leaning dem

a conservative dem is someone like Ben Nelson of NE. Obama's voting records in both the IL Senate and the U.S. senate are run of the mill liberal.

[saracat]

14. Perhaps with what passes for liberal these days. All I am saying is Obama

never endorsed gay marriage , and has always said he was "personally opposed to abortion but supports retaining Roe. If you read what Kaine states, he is saying the same thing.The verbiage is the same. A host of Dems hold those views and are considered "liberal". The same "liberal " Dems vote with the GOP regularly in support of corporations as opposed to people as well. "Liberal" is a very "loose" definition these days. it is inconsistant and all over the map. Think as you will.
Kaine and Obama are very close friends who hold very similar vews according to their own admission.

[Radical Activist]

41. That's a gross distortion.

Kaine has taken anti-choice policy moves. Obama has perfect ratings with choice groups. Equating the two is ridiculous. And conservatives don't support a civil union law that provides full marriage rights.

Maybe you're just looking for someone who screams and shouts about how liberal they are like Kucinich or Edwards.

[Jennicut]

16. Yeah, Obama is not exactly a Blue Dog conservative Dem

[hfojvt]

30. he's not exactly in the progressive caucus either

He sounds like Reagan and Bush with this stimulus package too - bigger tax cuts and corporate tax breaks to save the economy. Is he already caving on the refundability of his tax credit by tying it to withholding? And no mention of reversing the Bush tax cuts as part of the stimulus package.

[truedelphi]

38. I sad but certainly not shocked.

The moment he held out Geithner, Summers and Rubin as apopointees on his economic team, I realized how far away he is now and for quite a while from any progress.


Nothing like giving crooks a central part in the new administration.

Then there is Vilseck from Iowa to give the Agriculture Department a continuation of all Monsanto all the time policies.

[leftstreet]

11. Another 'Obama is Far Too Clever for Us To Understand' post n/t

[MarjorieG]

13. Unless people agree, media teaches, these are too large leaps.

What do we do meantime? Single payer will not help from where we are, and too many people are in dire need to engage in ideological arguments, even if they're now ours.

As I'm 24/7 election reform, without ballot custody and safeguard of the PAPER, and the willingness and legislative push to audit or recount, we're sunk. Even now, the good gov't groups that gave us electronic voting because of disability access ruse (voting like everybody else using the same touchscreen system)(a cabal with Diebold) are now pushing for early voting, more absentee voting in the name of access. Without again pushing for accuracy or security.

Minds side-tracked because how nice for people at home in pajamas to vote. Increasing the vote, but decreasing the votes that count, or counted as cast.

[Still Sensible]

18. Not to be a nudge...

but I don't think Obama campaigned as one so liberal, despite the attempts of his opposition to call him the most liberal senator. The things Obama campaigned on would certainly include a goal of Universal (but not necessarily government funded or single payer) health care. His proposal and Hillary's differed only slightly on what would be mandatory and how and were more pragmatic than yours.

Obama has said he does not support gay marriage... he supports civil unions... but spoke out against prop 8 in California.

Federal gun licensing is a longshot and not one that I recall being addressed in the campaign. I would suggest that if cars can be licensed at the state level, why not guns. It seems a more practical approach... but it is necessary for states to have similar benchmarks for even that to be effective.

All for election reform, but suggest the way my state does it with optical scanning of paper ballots is an adequate, auditable solution... which should be the goal.

Government investment in green industry seems to be an important part of the Obama plan and is expected to be a part of his economic recovery proposals as well.

I don't know that it is fair to say Obama has surrounded himself with conservatives although just about everyone on his current team would be more conservative than I perceive you to be. He has named a number of people that I would consider reasonably liberal and pragmatic. JMHO.

[anonymous171]

19. Guns and Gays should be at the end.

Otherwise we will cripple other initiatives before they even start.

[Runcible Spoon]

33. oh yeah, civil rights get to the back of the line!

Better luck next time :eyes:

For fuck's sake! As if a competent politician can't multitask

[anonymous171]

34. If FDR had put Civil Rights at the front of his agenda, there would be no New Deal.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

50. Wow....

just wow. :eyes:

You do your cause a lot of good.

[EFerrari]

20. Quibble: there is no such thing as a "corporate conservative"

or a "social conservative". The former is term for grifters, the latter is a nice label for bigots who want to run your life.

[Two Americas]

26. the people are who matters

For the Democrats to win as they did, that means that millions who had been voting Republican switched. More here need to actually talk to those people.

I have talked to hundreds of blue collar people who switched. I say to them "but Obama is far left, a socialist!" They do not say, as people do here, "no, no, you see he is a moderate centrist, who will govern from the middle, and who will be working with all factions. That is what I want - the middle, and for all of us to just get along now. I was hoping for more competence, better management, with no real change in fundamental policy." No. They say "that may be just what we need now."

The right wing propagandists have been successfully smearing all Democrats with the "far left" and "socialist" crap for a while now. Nothing changed in this last cycle - the right wingers still control the media, and are still are banging on the same themes.

So what did change? We look for the answer everywhere other than the people. The people changed. They rejected and repudiated Reaganomics and the religious right. They did not suddenly decide that the right wing MSM propagandists were wrong, and that Democrats were not "ultra liberal" and "far left." They voted for "far left." The thing I heard everywhere I went among blue collar people in the farming communities around the country was "we need another New Deal." Then I come here and hear "we need moderate centrism."

The most dominant voices within the Democratic party and liberal activist community are starting to emerge as the most stubbornly conservative and reactionary faction in the country. Even among the "fundies" economic populism - the plight of the have-nots - is now trumping so-called social conservatism. It is a relatively easy matter to show them how GLBQT people, for example, are also persecuted have-nots. That builds solidarity. "Centrism" does not. Pandering and triangulating does not.

People need to get out more and talk directly to the people outside of the little upscale bubble of "like minded" liberals. That is what we should be doing anyway, rather than always looking to and kissing the butts of the leadership, the gentrified aristocracy within the party and liberalism, who are profoundly conservative and authoritarian for the most part.

[Trekologer]

35. In order for Obama to be successful today

he needs to be the President of the United States. He can't just be the president of those who agree with him. As Democrats we need to be the same way. There isn't a litmus test that determines if someone can be a Democrat or not. Instead we are the party of inclusion. That also means that we need to listen to those who disagree with us as well. Consider the opportunity them to convince them to change their views. We are going to need them in 2010, 2012 and beyond.

[mitchtv]

37. gonna need sme Democrats too

and the way he's behaving he'll come up short

[Two Americas]

39. then nothing means anything

If Obama is going to be "president of all Americans" - where did that come from? It gets repeated and repeated suddenly - that really means represent all opinions. If you represent all opinions, you stand for nothing.

If anyone can be a Democrat regardless of their political views, then being a Democrat no longer means anything.

There is something very odd about this. While there is a demand for a wishy washy meaningless and ever-evolving definition of what a Democrat is, and what the PE stands for, at the same time there is an aggressive demand that we be super-loyal to both the party and the PE. Very strange.


.

[Toasterlad]

47. Not So Strange.

I've noticed an amazing proliferation of low-post count people who are all sprouting the same message: "Obama has to be president of the WHOLE United States" and "He can't risk alienating the right".

Republicans aren't the only ones who can infiltrate a website in order to undermine an agenda.

The corporate overlords are going to maintain the status quo for as long as they can before the bottom drops out. Obama was allowed to be elected because he will play ball. Anyone expecting ANY change for the better in today's America had better realize that it won't come until the people actually wake up and take back their country. That means ignoring the mainstream media and working the grassroots. That means electing REAL progressives. That means, stop being sheep.

[Two Americas]

48. yes

There are a handful of people pushing the same lines over and over again. There are a few of us fighting back. But there is a big wishy washy middle here of people who are too easily steered and manipulated.

[Odin2005]

36. Damn, I wish we could recommend posts, because that sums everything up perfectly. n/t

[snot]

40. BUT THERE'S ONE BIG QUESTION:

Given that he presumably can't himself be an expert in everything, he needs advice from a few folks. He could have surrounded himself with those who CORRECTLY understood/predicted our current problems; instead, he's surrounding himself with those who were wrong.

Is he at least going to have Roubini on speed dial or whatever?

[Radical Activist]

42. No matter how many times people deny the existence of liberals

in Obama's cabinet and policy adviser positions it still doesn't make your claim true.

It it too much to ask for people to just be honest and accurate when they want to push Obama left? Is that so difficult? I'm all for getting Obama to move left but trying to make him look like a conservative bad guy is a dumb ass way of doing it.

[Dangerman]

43. Change MY ASS!

How did Barrack chose these people in the first place?

[OneBlueSky]

45. in the long run, it won't matter . . . reality will trump conservatism of every ilk . . .

Obama may well be a "social conservative," and he may be srrounding himself with conservatives of one kind or another . . . but in the long run, it won't matter one bit, since conservative philosophy has been exposed for the socially, morally, ethically and legally bankrupt system that it is . . .

for any change to happen, Obama must move in a progressive direction, because the alternative has very clearly been shown not to work . . . he may not want to, but reality (and the circumstances that comprise it) will give him no other choice . . . it's progressive liberalism or failure -- there are no other alternatives . . .

[DCKit]

49. You hit *most* of the high-notes...

But we can't ignore the many, many items (not that I'm claiming to have "the complete list") of things we need to do to ensure our national security, including, but certainly not limited to:

1) Alternative energy investment and tax incentives to the end-user. We've been throwing billions at industry for decades for R&D and have seen no return in the investment - The "Hydrogen Economy" is a prime example. Fuel cells will remain unaffordable for the foreseeable future, yet have been touted for years as the single answer to all our ills (unless you read the Environment and Energy board, and the pro-Nnewkulur crowd would have a reactor in every back yard.)
2) Regulation and ENFORCEMENT of existing laws (environmental, financial markets, Food and Drug, etc..).
3) Bringing the concepts of justice and human rights back into international dealings. No more "Free Trade" but "Fair Trade."

No matter how you look at it, we've got a buttload of work to do and most of the current policies need to be undone. Business as usual isn't going to get us out of the ditch.

[Enrique]

51. time to let go of the fantasy

Obama is not as liberal as DU. He's a centrist.

I do think he's committed to progress, and has a lot of potential to achieve it.