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Lakoff sez that most people who oppose publicly funded health care cite the following values

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:11 PM
Original message
Lakoff sez that most people who oppose publicly funded health care cite the following values
--self-reliance, personal responsibility and entrepreneurship.

If self-reliance means no dependence on publicly financed health care, does it also mean that there should be no dependence on publicly financed fire departments? Be self-reliant and just use your fire extinguisher and garden hose?

If personal responsibility means that you should exercise and eat healthy foods, therefore eliminating the need for publicly financed health care, does it also mean that because you wired your house according to code, avoid storing oily rags in the basement and taught your kids not to play with matches mean that we don't need publicly financed fire departments?

As for entrepreneurship, what relationship to private insurance does medical innovation have? In point of fact, they usually turn down claims for "experimental" treatments. IMO, the three most important medical innovations of the 20th century were the discovery of insulin by Banting and Best, the rediscovery of penicillin by Fleming, and the Saulk polio vaccine. None of these researchers made a dime off of their discoveries. However, they could pretty much write their own tickets for research funding subsequently. What most real producers in this area want is comfortable lives and funding for their projects. Mostly they prefer working on their next discovery than profiting from blocking access to their last one.

The concept of public good is perfectly compatible with the values of self-reliance, personal responsibility and entrepreneurship. Pass it on.

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Those who think this way are a dying breed IMHO. More and more Americans are just fed up
with the current health care fiasco in this country. Besides, under the Bush administration self reliance, personal responsibility and entrepreneurship have NOT been their values! Esp. the personal responsibility thing. Heh.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Unfortunately, the people who control the media...
are against publicly funded health care. Most Americans have been for it for years.

Bill
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. hopefully public opinion will turn this around...
maybe, and I hope!...
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I just attended a
Community Forum on Health Care - the largest percentage of the group was for Universal Health Care (Medicare for All).
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. If you put together an email list for the group--
--be sure to tell them to go to change.gov and vote for the single payer options.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. The argument about medical innovation is pure horseshit
The insurance and pharmaceutical industries spend 20 times as much on advertising as on R&D. Most major medical research is funded by...wait for it...the Gubmint.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Pharma at least does some research. Insurance companies sure don't
Of course pharma needs some regulation in the price department.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I'd really like to see the actual figures on who is paying for pharma research.
I'll bet the government winds up paying for far more research drugs that wind up as profit drugs for pharma than anyone is willing to admit.

Take the PROFIT out of pharmaceuticals and help the country, too.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Yes, the government share is sizeable
Nonetheless, pharma pays some. Also drug development is not by its nature parasitic. Private insurance is.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. and through grants to PUBLIC universities a lot of the time
and those same colleges happliy sell access to wealthy foreigners who pay through the nose, while cutting funding to help deserving local students get into college.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Personal responsibility includes consulting a doctor to prevent illness.
And private insurance companies are the opposite of free market enterprises. Their goal is not to provide service rather than to provide the best service at a cost the market bears.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Their goal is to deny as many claims as they can get by with denying
Edited on Fri Jan-02-09 03:37 PM by eridani
All this "public/private partnership" bilgethat advocates of keeping private insurance are spouting is nonsense. How about this for a public/private partnership--publicly financed, privately delivered?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. We need to refund Lakoff's think tank AND go work with him.
Seriously, Media Matters is great but they don't go far enough, imo.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. yep, I'd go for that! n/t
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. They do until they get sick
and are forced to rely on the generosity of others, including healthcare workers.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. What we need to do is to be aware of their values and point out
--how health care as a public good is compatible with them.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. So if these people have a heart attack or stroke, they can get themselves to the emergency room
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No more than they can put out a serious fire with a garden hose
My point here is that people who claim those values already accept fire protection as a public good. Use that to get them to accespt health care as a public good.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Or they can die trying, yes. n/t
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. These are usually the same people who want every embryo carried to term
so they can deny healthcare to little kids.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. kick (n/t)
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's also racist but if this recession gets deeper, doctors will come to our side
they are seeing a drop in patients and some are getting nervous about the economy.

As for the racist comment, see Lee Atwater. It was part of the southern strategy. Can't say "hate blacks" but they could say "lazy ppl don't deserve government hand outs" which racist whites would correctly interpret as support for GOP racist policies.

You hear it when you talk to ppl about this "there was a woman at the grocery store behind me buying luxury items with food stamps. I couldn't afford what she was buying". Hence, their children don't deserve health care.

They also do the "so why are ppl from Canada coming here for health care". Remind them that polls show ppl in socialized medicine countries like their system better than ppl in US like ours.

Also, we pay more for health care than any country on earth and rank 37th in terms of quality of care. If that doesn't show it is broken, what else do you need?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Doctors and other providers are already on our side
www.pnhp.org
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. Don't the military already have universal health care?

Where I live, the military (active and retired) go to the military doctors and military hospitals. So our tax dollars already support the military, hence don't our tax dollars also support the military health care?
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Yes he do have universal health care.
In 24 years in the Navy, the only doctor I saw more than once was the one that screw up my surgery, and I could not sue him for his screw up. the surgeon that screwed up my sons birth managed to loose all records of the event for 5 years.
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stillwaiting Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am exercising personal responsibility when I accept single payer healthcare...
I realize that I can personally achieve a greater level of health if single payer ever gets implemented.

I will be able to pursue entrepreneurship ventures better over the course of my life if I have the peace of mind and access to
health care that single payer provides.

No one is self reliant in life. No one. All of us have relied on others in many, many ways to get where we are today. I cannot rely on myself to take care of my own health care needs. This does not make me a failure. It makes me part of a society. A society that is SCREAMING out for access to health care.

Lakoff can suck it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-09 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. Speaking of Lakoff...his credibility was harmed by Rahm's book.
Edited on Sat Jan-03-09 07:32 PM by madfloridian
His Rockridge Institute has no more funding. A large part of a chapter in a book by Rahm Emanuel and Bruce Reed nearly finished him among DC elites. Kind of sad...they have done a good job on others the last few years.

In this part they totally trash his ideas, misinterpret them, and twist them. Sorry about that, George Lakoff, they decided it was time for you to go...just like others.

The Plan

he leading proponent of this reassurance is Professor George Lakoff, a University of California linguist and author of the best-selling tract Don't Think of an Elephant! Lakoff's book, a compilation of speeches on what he calls "Frame Semantics," has sold about one-quarter million copies since 2004.

Why have so many Democrats snapped up Lakoff's manual? Because it tells them exactly what they want to hear. As might be expected from a linguistics professor and self-proclaimed "metaphor analyst," the book contends that Democrats' biggest problem is the words we use. All progressives need to do to win the political debate, he argues, is to change the conceptual "frame" in which it takes place. According to Lakoff, Democratic arguments are bouncing off the electorate's collective subconscious because conservatives have set the frame and we haven't. To be fair, Lakoff isn't wrong about everything. He understands the importance of values and an agenda. He calls the lack of ideas "hypocognition" -- which he says was first discovered in a Tahitian tribe where suicide was rampant because it lacked the concept of grief. One man's frame is another man's pine box.

But Lakoff is flat-out wrong to suggest that Democrats are losing just because Republicans know all the right words. His favorite example is that conservatives learned to call tax cuts "tax relief." He's right that Republicans make a fetish out of using the most misleading, Orwellian words they can find. But let's be honest: Bush didn't manage to pass his tax cuts because he called them tax relief. (Most of the time, he called them tax cuts.) Bush got the chance to pass his disastrous tax cuts because Democrats were too slow to offer real tax reform proposals of our own. The tax debate illustrates what Al From, who founded the Democratic Leadership Council, has astutely observed: In a country with three self-identified conservatives for every two self-identified liberals, when neither side's agenda is sufficiently compelling, Republicans usually win by default.

The real danger of Lakoff 's analysis is that it reinforces Democrats' favorite excuse -- that Republicans have succeeded by pulling the wool over Americans' eyes, and that we'll start winning as soon as we learn the same dark arts.

Some Democrats want to believe that we can stand in front of the mirror and practice the words to win America back. "Ever wonder how the radical right has been able to convince average Americans to repeatedly vote against their own interests?" Ariana Huffington says in plugging Lakoff 's book, "It's the framing, stupid!" One glowing reviewer declared, "While Democrats were campaigning as if policy mattered, Republicans were waging their campaign on a far more fundamental, and more powerful, psychological level."


Uh Uh, Rahm, you really don't get it. You are siding with those Republicans to keep "liberals" at arms length. You have basically recruited candidates to run as Democrats who share Republican ideals.

Sorry, George, you and those you worked with were making too much of a progressive difference. It was time for you to go just like the others. And Rahm heads to the center of power, the White House.

It's easy when you have the media's attention, it's easy when have the power. Bye, George.

Rahm even called Lakoff a highbrow.

Highbrows like Lakoff and street fighters like Rove share the same Hack fallacy that we can game history to our advantage. In truth, we don't get to pick and choose between the great challenges the country faces. Even in calmer times, voters decided what was on their minds, not politicians. Today, we have no choice but to play the hand we're dealt: a long war against terrorism, a long struggle to compete economically, and a long way to go to build a culture of community here at home.


Rahm is Chief of Staff, a place of power. Further he praises Al From and Mark Penn in the same chapter in which he insults Lakoff. He ridicules those who think Democrats should "oppose.

"Giving an answer. The final myth that Democrats must leave behind is the idea that "oppose, oppose, oppose" is a successful formula for an opposition party to escape being in the opposition. A successful opposition must oppose and propose, and do both well. Democrats in Congress have an obligation to stand firm against the Republicans whenever they're wrong, which is all too often. At the same time, however, we have an obligation to ourselves and to the future to suggest a clear alternative path for the country to follow. As Mark Penn found in a survey for BLUEPRINT, three out of four Americans -- and five out of six rank-and-file Democrats -- are more interested in hearing Democrats' agenda than what's wrong with the Republicans' agenda (see Moment of Opportunity, by Al From, BLUEPRINT, Vol. 2006, No. 1).


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