But seriously

[malaise]

You drop a one ton bomb on a man's home - kill him and twelve others including children and then turn around and say he wanted to be a martyr and it's his fault that the children are dead.
Life is easy when you control the meme.

[spanone]

1. just watched footage on cnn....many children...many

[malaise]

6. That's where I heard this bullspit

The other meme they're pushing is that Obama won because of the economy. Obama won because there was no way in hell people were voting for the Rethugs.

[Wiley50]

9. They control the news cycle too

Once in a while they may report what happened, often with pictures

But the slant they apply determines who the viewers perceive it

[malaise]

13. Only the sheeple buy their slant these days

M$Greedia has no fucking credibility left.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Seriously

If you know that a very powerful military with an army of informants is dropping bombs all over the place with the intention of killing you, it might be a good idea to put your family somewhere else if you want them to live.

[EFerrari]

5. The problem is, you live in the world's biggest open air prison.

What to do.

:puke:

[rockymountaindem]

7. If the Gaza Strip is twice the size of Washington D.C.

you mean to tell me they had no other option than to be in the very same building?

[malaise]

8. I can't speak for you

but if we're under attack we're staying together. Families kind of like to do that.

[EFerrari]

10. Tell me with a straight face that family could go anywhere and not be a target.

[rockymountaindem]

11. Okay

Why would Israel waste a bomb just to kill his kids? Let's say they were a kilometer away in another location. They would not have been killed in this attack. Laser guided bombs aren't cheap. Neither is jet fuel. For Israel to expend military resources to just kill the man's kids would be counterproductive. The family was not the target. Rayyan was the target. This isn't like the London blitz where you've got an equal chance of being killed no matter what tube station you're hiding in. When the target is one person, you'd best not be in the *same room* with him. Not that his wives and children had much say in the matter, which is unfortunate.

[EFerrari]

16. This is assassination, period, even before you factor in civilians.

Do you realize how far you are bending over to justify this?

Good grief.

[TahitiNut]

19. Golly ... we should feel bad for the IDF that they might "waste a bomb" on kids?

:wow: I've heard some reprehensible framing, but :wow:

:puke:

I guess the "kill 'em before they grow up and become terrorists" meme isn't enough these days, huh??

:puke:

How about "the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian"?? There's an oldie but goodie.

:puke:

[rockymountaindem]

22. That's not what I said at all

I said it wouldn't make sense for the IDF to just bomb a bunch of kids.

[TahitiNut]

23. Kids. Inconsequential. Meaningless. WORTHLESS.

Try reading your own posts. Try reading them with a respect for life ... with a compassion and appreciation for innocent children. Try keeping in mind that it's not just a bunch of kids!!!

I'm going to assume that human beings who post on DU have some degree of empathy and feeling of kinship with all human beings and aren't so immersed in the postures and rantings of political positions that we can all comprehend that the trivialization of anyone's lives makes us less humane.

So try reading and seeing how "just bomb a bunch of kids" trivializes the suffering and death of innocent children.

Hell ... I'm a Viet Nam veteran and I never dehumanized anyone to that degree. Never.

[rockymountaindem]

24. I'm sorry my language sounded flippant

I didn't mean to trivialize the deaths of children. I agree with you that hopefully everybody on this board recognizes the humanity of others. That wasn't the attitude I meant to convey.

However, I think that Rayyan is/was a legitimate target because he was a key part of the command structure of an organization (Hamas) which is in a state of conflict with Israel. I don't think it was wrong for the Israelis to try and kill him. Rayyan had to know that he was not only a target but was also at considerable risk considering the widespread knowledge broadcast in the media that Israel has been preparing for this kind of action for a long time and has a robust spy network reporting on the whereabouts of men like him. So, I argue that Rayyan must have realized that the Israeli Air Force would be gunning for him. Now, I think that a man in that position who wanted to save the lives of his family would have made sure they were somewhere he was not. Rayyan, on the contrary, decided to put them at risk by keeping them, apparently, in the same room as himself. If he really wanted to make sure his wives and children survived this confrontation, that was an irresponsible thing to do.

Let's say that sometime this year our new President gets word that our military has the opportunity to kill someone like Al-Zwahari in a remote camp in someplace like Sudan. I'd want Obama to order that attack, even if Al Zwahari is with his family. Wouldn't you?

[TahitiNut]

25. Remember this???

Funny how our attitudes seem to have changed.

As a Viet Nam veteran, I've dealt with the spin and misinformation regarding this particular photo for years ... and have been called a "baby killer" despite any facts to the contrary.

Fact: This girl was burned in an action that did not involve a single U.S. military person. It was between regular ARVN and PAVN forces only.

Nonetheless, the empathy and compassion of a nation was such that many turned on their own as a result of this image as well as others.

Where did that compassion go? Why are so many people rationalizing and apologising the egregious excesses of a military force inflicting so much death and destruction on a nearly helpless civilian population???

It's fucking insane.





As a matter of fact, THIS was more consistent with MY experiences there.

But my "countrymen" didn't deal with me as though it was true.
:shrug:

[malaise]

26. Where did that compassion go?

Why are so many people rationalizing and apologising the egregious excesses of a military force inflicting so much death and destruction on a nearly helpless civilian population???

It's fucking insane.

I couldn't say it better. Thank you. :cry: :cry:

[annabanana]

37. Thank you TN

The offhanded tone that has accompanied the massive spillage of innocent blood has chilled mine..

[TahitiNut]

38. Sure thing. I have some personal experience that informs my perspective.

When I was in Viet Nam in 1969, I was stationed at Long Binh, USARV HQ Company. For many months, we'd get indirect fire (mortars or RPGs) at night that'd awaken us and send us scrambling for cover. I saw people die in barracks hit by incoming. I've hugged the ground after a near miss.

We had fire control radar-equipped artillery in those days, too. That equipment could track the ballistic trajectory of incoming and fire off a computer-controlled round or more to within mere feet of the origin of such fire. It wouldn't take more than about 30 seconds.

But we didn't do it. We had the return fire disabled.

Why?

Because the rounds were fired off from civilian areas ... villages. We couldn't tolerate the idea that innocents might be injured or die and the VC may have didi-mau'd long since. We may have SUSPECTED that the villagers were complicit ... but we'd rather scramble and cover our butts ... even though some got killed ... than blow up kids and innocents.

I don't know of a single guy that disagreed with that policy. Not one.

We understood war crimes.

Why don't OTHERS????


The Israelis have radar and sirens and sound alerts when rockets are detected incoming. They have many fortified bunkers and a minimum of 15 seconds (quite long, when you're under fire, actually) to find cover. There's a REASON the Hamas rockets have inflicted so few casualties - less than 20 killed since 2004. (Compared to over 400 Palestinians in the last week.)

So ... I've actually lived under worse conditions. And I CAN LIVE WITH THE CHOICES WE MADE. I couldn't live with the choices the Israelis are making ... and I CANNOT SUPPORT THEM IN MAKING THOSE CHOICES. No way. No how.

[malaise]

27. I trust you recognize that when one government

can 'exterminate' the elected officials and family of another government, the reverse is also possible.

[rockymountaindem]

36. Sure n/t

[bvar22]

56. Israel has all the bombs and jet fuel..

..they could ever use.
Courtesy of the US Taxpayer.

[malaise]

12. Truthfully he may have been everything they say he was

but they really ought to have spared me the 'he wanted to be a martyr' bit after a one ton bomb was dropped on his home. He did not drop that bomb.

[EFerrari]

15. He may have been all that and worse, agreed. n/t

[The Magistrate]

29. Indeed, Ma'am, That Sort Of Verbiage Is Pathetic

But he knew he was a target, and he chose to go where it was almost certain surveillance would be maintained. Very bad trade-craft for a man in his position, and with his experience of clandestine organization.

[malaise]

30. But they made him a martyr

A Happy New Year to The Magistrate.

[The Magistrate]

32. Thank You, Ma'am

I hope it will be better for all, and wish it would be for more.

[EFerrari]

3. Obviously all the residents of that building were being used as human shields.

:sarcasm:

:puke:

[malaise]

14. Of course

:sarcasm:

[seemslikeadream]

4. k and r

[EFerrari]

17. You know what I notice is, people don't even bother any more in their thinking

with little formalities like declarations of war.

The rituals of war are important because they depress killings. If there is a process to go through, that means time passes so that leaders have more time to think. That means civilians have more time to plan and get clear. That means, consequences are weighed and so on.

That's gone. Out the window. The whole structure that human culture developed to contain, buffer and reduce its own aggression has been so eroded that there are people who just accept that thousand pound bombs can be dropped on apartment buildings with no ceremony that can't be conferred by youtube. They think it's just fine.

:puke:

[malaise]

18. ANd M$Greedia report it as if

a little rain fell and I might add then tell us that they have great video to show us...yes great video. :puke:

[EFerrari]

20. The IDF turned off the comments section on their new youtube channel.

I'm hoping that's a sign that they weren't getting the feedback they were looking for. :(

[malaise]

21. I'll take bets

:D

[Swamp Rat]

28. Death from above

[malaise]

31. Excellent

I'll take a hurricane over those humanitarians. The odds of survival are better. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

33. Our hurricanes include Blackwater clean-up crews in the aftermath.

We get both together now.

Makes me pine for hurricanes of yore, like Besty.

[malaise]

34. Hurricane Bush cannot

be categorized. He was off the charts in more ways than one.
Has FEMA even picked up the dead in Galveston yet?

[ThomCat]

35. Bullies get to re-write history to make themselves into heroes.

x(

[eridani]

39. In the ground invasion, Israel will be doing a historical re-enactment

The Nazi invasion of the Warsaw Ghetto.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. But seriously,

Life is easy when the world is "black/white" like you see it.

So, if you got a call from a group that had been bombing your neighborhood and said "your house is next, you have 30 minutes," what would you do?

[malaise]

41. Maybe I'd call the media

Oh no they've been banned from covering what's going on in Gaza. At least we're able to see what's happening with your neighbour and while I don't support attacks on either side, when examining black/white, scale and proportionality should matter.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. So, you admit to avoidance.

Oh wait, this is called a strawman. Introducing something to distract from the topic.

Or did you actually mean you'd only call the media, knowing the group who had been bombing your neighborhood was about to target your house?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

42. I would want...

Someone whom I could call who would halt the bombing, particularly if I had NO Air Force with which to respond.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. So basically,you'd resign yourself to doing nothing?

Fascinating.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

45. Not at all what I said.

I said that I would want to call someone who would put an end to the bombing.

Or do you mean to imply that that is not a way to solve the problem, or that such potential party does not exist ?

[Behind the Aegis]

46. True.

You said you would want to call someone who could halt the bombing. That doesn't exist. So now what?

Who do you call to stop the bombing?

ETA: Grammar

[Ani Yun Wiya]

47. That doesn't exist.

And why do you think that ?
Do the ones doing the bombing have the only say in the matter ?

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Why don't you answer the question?

You can't call the media, you can't call someone to stop the bombing, what do you do?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

49. I suppose I could call someone...

who would act as my surrogate in the event of my death.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. And your family?

Would you leave them in the house you know is about to be bombed?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

51. You mean to say that...

fair warning, with specificity was actually given ?

You gots to be jivin' me.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. If the OP is talking about the situation that just happened, yes.

A half hour before the assault, the house was called and told it would be a target.

So, again, avoiding the question. Typical response from those like you.

ETA: You just can't admit, you aren't as brave as those Hamas folks; willing to sacrifice their families for the "greater good."

[Ani Yun Wiya]

53. Only one question.

Who made this call ?

(And without doubt I would want to see this in black and white and not as a "weblink")

[Behind the Aegis]

54. More avoidance.

The reports are that the house was called. Who made the call? I don't know. Santa? Now, answer the fucking question!

[bvar22]

58. I think you need to address the poster's concern.

I too would like to see you support your claim with links to an impartial source.

[malaise]

55. Next you'll suggest that he killed his family

Ah well. That one ton bomb was dropped by who again?

[Madison knows]

57. He did...

[EFerrari]

59. Life is not black and white but some things are still clearly WRONG.

[chrisa]

60. Collateral Damage...

If somebody killed your family, or raped them, everybody here would want blood.

It's easy to pretend it's not so bad when it happens half way across the world, and none of us are dying.