Obama Refuses To Endorse Gaza Attacks (?)

[bigtree]

from TPM: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/28/obama_refuses_to_endorse_gaza/


posted by M.J. Rosenberg - December 28, 2008, 10:42AM

On Meet The Press this morning, David Axelrod was asked about Gaza by David Gregory. Gregory reminded Axelrod that the President-Elect had visited Sderot earlier this year and said that Israel had the right to defend its people against the mortars. What does he think now?

Axelrod said, predictably, that we have one President at a time. He also said that Obama understood the "urge" to respond militarily.

"The urge." That's it. None of that "of course Israel has the right to defend itself" stuff which was Bush's response to everything. Not this time. Israel's right to defend itself is not the issue: this particular onslaught is.

When Obama feels strongly about anything, the "one President at a time" mantra is abandoned. When he wants to avoid being boxed in, he invokes it. Under pressure to follow Nancy Pelosi's example and just endorse the attack, Axelrod punted. Big time. I hope the Israelis understand what this means.

I wish Axelrod said more but, in this case, silence was golden. Axelrod sent a signal. After Jan. 20th, America will be an "honest broker." That is what both sides need.

[ixion]

1. good, they should be condemed, not endorsed.

as ANY attack should be.

[bunnies]

2. Good.

Its about damn time.

[Robbien]

3. Bombing fish in a barrel

Where are the Palestinian families to go to escape from being bombed? No where, they just have to sit there and be bombed.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

11. uh oh

incoming.

;)

[leftchick]

9. one of the saddest stories out of Gaza....

evacuating already sick patients in an under supplied hospital to bring in the dead and injured. It can not get much worse than that. Bomb the hospitals next? :cry: There is a name for this.

[Robbien]

12. Turkey has already come out proclaiming this is a crime against humanity

Israel has lost its last friend in the area.

After suffering through a blockade for months, the Palestine people are starving, without clean water, no electricity, no nothing. Now bombs.

It is criminal.

Soon Israel will only have AIPAC left as a friend.

[leftchick]

21. in the mid east friendships for sure

It appears AIPAC will always be at the cornerstone of US foreign policies. :(

[MajorChode]

35. What?

What I find severely lacking in this thread is the concept of perspective. The Gaza blockade obviously hasn't prevented Hamas from smuggling weapons, and when the border with Egypt has been opened in the past it released the flood gates of even more weapons in the past. So where is the outrage against Hamas? Aiming and firing rockets specifically against civilians is a violation of international law. Furthermore the reason why Hamas has initiated their attack at this time is because of the current political vacuum in Washington as we are between administrations. So why does Hamas initiate these attacks against civilians when they know it will eventually initiate a response from Israel? Because they know it will generate international sympathy for their cause. They also know it will eventually erode support for Fatah. They have absolutely no problem with targeting civilians and they know the inevitable response will cause collateral damage on their own civilians.

So should the heavy handed Israeli response be condemned? Absolutely. So should Israel be condemned for limiting basic human needs to Gaza civilians? Absolutely. But you can't refuse to condemn Hamas in the same breath, and Obama's foreign policy should do exactly that. Hamas is a terrorist organization pure and simple and they have no compunction about targeting Israeli civilians or sending their own people like lambs to the slaughter. Those who give sympathy to Hamas are the reason why their war rages on. While I don't agree with the Bush administration's policies of basically giving Israel free rein, I don't agree with simply ignoring the misdeeds of Hamas. They should be strongly condemned every time they initiate attacks on civilians along with the entities that are supplying them. We give oil money to Saudi Arabia and they turn around and provide military support to Hamas. Furthermore the civil war between Hamas and Fatah is killing far more Palestinians than Israel ever thought about. I sincerely hope Obama's foreign policy does a much better job, but simply condemning Israel isn't going to stop the violence.

[bigtree]

40. We can correctly condemn Israel's response which is cynically political

The Israeli attacks on population centers is a tired, old attempt to splinter support in those communities for Hamas - Hamas is undoubtedly using the Palestinian population as a shield as they wage their own political violence.

But, if there was a sustaining level of concern for the Palestinians lives and livelihoods, there wouldn't be as much support among them for Hamas or the Saudis who provide NECESSARY aid and assistance to the population.

[MajorChode]

49. Cynically political is exactly correct

I don't believe the Israeli strategy relies on splintering support for Hamas. If it was, then it's a failed strategy as Hamas is stronger today than they ever have been. Surely the Israeli are not so stupid as to see that reasoning doesn't work.

I believe their motivations are pretty simple and politically motivated. If the city of Juarez was launching rocket attacks against El Paso, you'd better believe the US would not tolerate very much before they started taking extreme measures to prevent it, even if that response included disproportionate suffering of Mexicans. A democratic society would demand no less of its leaders. So if Israeli politicians are cynical, it's only because their population demands it.

Lots of countries give large amounts of humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. Even the US sends a ton of money to that end. The difference is the Saudis are sending monetary aid to Hamas, which can only be categorized as a terrorist organization regardless of how much butter they buy with their gun money. The problem with the Bush policy was it encouraged (or at least didn't discourage strongly enough) both Israel and the Saudis, and the Palestinian civilians simply become pawns caught in the middle. The sad part is the US supports Israel directly and the Saudis indirectly through oil purchases. I hope Obama's policy is better. I don't see as how it can be much worse.

[bigtree]

50. 'the Saudis are sending monetary aid to Hamas'

There's a question of whether Israel missed an opportunity when they sat on their hands after Hamas was elected into authority. Every action they took to deny the Hamas authority civil control over hospitals, food distribution and the like created a vacuum in those vital areas of sustenance and assistance for the Palestinians. More general neglect and meddling and we wind up here - with the more reactive elements enjoying support in the besieged communities.

I think Israel knows better, but, politically, they can't do anything but oppose Hamas - and in turn condemn the folks who rely on whatever infrastructure Hamas provides for Palestinians' sustenance and survival.

[KittyWampus]

27. bombing fish in a barrel- you mean like going into a crowded marketplace with explosives strapped

underneath your clothing and killing as many civilians as possible along with your sorry self?

[Kalyke]

29. Whose "self" is "sorry" because they have been forced to

live without any human aminities for 60 years.

Push people to desparation and they do desparate things.

[KittyWampus]

30. ah, the ol "but Johnny hit me first" crap. My point? If you condemn violence, condemn both sides

those perpetrating violence on BOTH sides need to be reined in.

Hamas holds no moral high ground.

[leftchick]

4. I have been waiting for this

I hope you are right.

[bigtree]

7. I'm going to put a question mark on the title

I've been stewing on that question since I posted the op.

[sundog]

5. good

[liberalmuse]

8. Targeting civilians is beyond the pale.

I'm glad he didn't endorse it. It was horrific!

[leftchick]

10. no they are targeting the bad guys

:sarcasm:

The shock and awe they are doing to Gaza ensures civilian deaths. What does that tell you?

[TahitiNut]

15. We're told that most of the dead seen are wearing uniforms. That supposedly makes them militants.

I've been trying to think of all the "militants" I've seen in my life. Police, fire fighters, Boy Scouts, Brownies, Girl Scouts, Catholic School children, custodial staff at my high school, baseball players, football players, cheerleaders, prison inmates, Klansmen, Texaco gas station attendants, many of the customers of Carhart, ... WOW! Lots of "militants"!!!

[Zynx]

17. They are not targetting civilians.

Civilians happen to be where the military targets are.

[shadowknows69]

20. Then you don't shoot until you can insure civilian safety

[Statistical]

23. Really? Somebody forgot to tell all sides than in WWII.

[TahitiNut]

25. The occupation of the West Bank and blockade of Gaza isn't 'World War II'

Occupying powers have duties to protect the civilian populations under their authority. It's the penultimate Bush-speak/Cheney-speak to persist in the obscene myth that an OCCUPATION with an insurgency is equivalent to a "WAR".

[Statistical]

45. Gaza isn't occupied

Israel has EVERY right (like any other sovreign nation on the planet) to close their border with a hostile entity.

Occupation of Gaza ended in 2005. Isreal responsibility to ensure trade between Gaza-Israel ended in 2005.

Gaza has another border to a "friendly Arab state", Egypt.
Anything Gaza needs COULD be supplied via the Egypt-Gaza border. It hasn't though. Why? Weapons, smuggling (source of income for Hamas), explosives freely flow between Egypt & Gaza. Supplies, food, trade, travel are prohibited.

If Egypt cared about their "Arab brothers" which category of items would help them the most?

WHAT IS CURRENTLY FLOWING
---------------------------
Weapons
Ammo
Explosives
Parts for rockets
Smuggled luxury goods (a cut goes to Hamas coffers)

WHAT COULD BE FLOWING
--------------------------
Food
Supplies
Real trade
Investment Activity
Construction Equipment
Travel for Education

The truth is Egypt INTENTIONALLY kept their border closed to create a pressure cooker. The pressure cooker just popped.

[TahitiNut]

47. You must not be able to read, either. I didn't say Gaza is occupied.

I said Gaza was blockaded. It has been blockaded for 18 months. The blockade is a crime against humanity.

Israel and Egypt have a peace treaty. Your supposition and conjecture (with no small dose of unsubstantiated propaganda) are no substitute for FACTS.

[Statistical]

48. The peace treaty does NOT prohibit Egypt from allowing supplies to cross the border (n/t)

The fact you keep willfully ignoring is Gaza is NOT surrounded by Israel.

Gaza has a border with Egypt. Egypt CHOSE to keep that border sealed.

Actually the 1979 peace treaty between Israel & Egypt requires that Egypt PREVENT weapons, smuggling, extremist from crossing the border. The ONLY thing Egypt has allowed to flow into Gaza is weapons, smuggling, and extremist.

Keep pretending that Israel can BLOCKADE Gaza.

It is as stupid as saying if Canada closed the border with US that US is "blockaded" and conveniently leave out the fact that US shares a border with Mexico. Countries have the sovereign right to close or restrict borders.

[DutchLiberal]

53. And that makes it better... how?

[leftchick]

24. ah the old shock and awe defense

Collective slaughter, It was not right for the US and it is not right for Israel to commit....

From the Free Gaza group on the ground in Gaza. You know those crazy liberal humanitarians who risk their lives for people and always exaggerate, :eyes:

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=30772


Media Release: International witnesses speak out from Gaza on Israeli atrocities

[e-mail]
General mailing Saturday, December 27, 2008


27th December 2008, Gaza, Palestine - Human Rights Defenders from Lebanon, the UK, Poland, Canada, Spain, Italy and Australia are present in Gaza and are witnessing and documenting the current Israeli attacks on Gaza.

Due to Israel`s policy of denying access to international media, human rights defenders and aid agencies to the Occupied Gaza Strip, many of these Human Rights Defenders arrived in Gaza with the Free Gaza Movement`s boats.
FGM boats have broken Israel`s siege of Gaza five times in the past four months.


`At the time of the attacks I was on Omar Mukhtar street and witnessed a last rocket hit the street 150 meters away where crowds had already gathered to try to extract the dead bodies. Ambulances, trucks, cars - anything that can move is bringing injured to the hospitals. Hospitals have had to evacuate sick patients to make room for the injured. I have been told that there is not enough room in the morgues for the bodies and that there is a great lack of blood in the bloodbanks. I have just learned that among the civilians killed today was the mother of my good friends in Jabalya camp.` - Eva Bartlett (Canada) International Solidarity Movement

`Israeli missles tore through a children`s playground and busy market in Diere Balah, we saw the aftermath - many were injured and some reportedly killed. Every Hospital in the Gaza strip is already overwhelmed with injured people and does not have the medicine or the capacity to treat them. Israel is committing crimes against humanity, it is violating international and human rights law, ignoring the United Nations and planning even bigger attacks. The world must act now and intensify the calls for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel; governments need to move beyond words of condemnation into an active and immediate restraint of Israel and a lifting of the siege of Gaza` - Ewa Jasiewicz (Polish and British) Free Gaza Movment

`The morgue at the Shifa hospital has no more room for dead bodies, so bodies and body parts are strewn all over the hospital.` - Dr. Haidar Eid, (Palestinian, South African) Professor of Social and Cultural Studies, Al Aqsa University Gaza

`The bombs began to fall just as the children were on the streets walking back from school. I went out onto the stairs and a terrified 5 year old girl ran sobbing into my arms.`- Sharon Lock (Australian) International Solidarity Movement

`This is incredibly sad. This massacre is not going to bring security for the State of Israel or allow it to be part of the Middle East. Now
calls of revenge are everywhere.` Dr Eyad Sarraj - President of the Gaza
Community Mental Health Centre


`As I speak they have just hit a building 200 metres away. There is smoke everywhere. This morning I went to the building close to where I
live in Rafah that had been hit. Two bulldozers were immediately attempting to clear the rubble. They thought they had found all the bodies. As we arrived one more was found.` Jenny Linnel (British) International Solidarity Movement

`The home I am staying in is across from the preventive security compound. All the glass of the house shattered. The home has been severely damaged. Due to the siege there is no glass or building materials to repair this damage. One little boy in our house fainted. An eight year little boy was trembling on the ground for an hour. In front of our house we found the bodies of two little girls under a car, completely burnt. They were coming home from school. This is more than just collective punishment. We are being treated like laboratory animals. I have lived through the Israeli bombardment of Beirut and the Israel`s message is the same in Gaza as it was in Beirut- The killing of civilians. There was just another explosion outside!` Natalie Abu Eid (Lebanon) International Solidarity Movement

Human Rights Defenders in Gaza:

Dr. Eyad Sarraj (Arabic and English) -[phone]

Ewa Jasiewicz, Free Gaza Co-Ordinator in Gaza (Polish, Arabic, and
English) - [phone]

Dr. Haider Eid (English and Arabic) - + 972 59 9441766

Sharon Lock (English) - [phone]

Vittorio Arrigoni (Italian) - [phone]

Fida Qishta (English and Arabic) [phone]

Jenny Linnel (English) - [phone]

Natalie Abu Shakra (Arabic and English) 0598336 328

For more information on the Free Gaza Movment (FGM) or the International
Solidarity Movement (ISM) contact in the West Bank:

Adam Taylor (ISM) - 972 59 8503948

Lubna Masarwa (FGM)- 972 50 5633044
Links to the latest articles in this section

Testimony from Gaza 27 December 2008
"An earthquake on top of your head": the bombing of Gaza
Gazans: Israel violated the truce

[High Plains]

46. And Israel doesn't give a shit who gets killed.

[TankLV]

41. And yet we have to hear ANY condemnation of HAMAS rocket attacks on INNOCENT ISRAELI CITIZENS

from their almost DAILY rocket attacks on ISRAELI CITIES...

[mike_c]

52. remind us again how much damage and death those homemade rockets...

...have caused, or why Palestinians use them against the most sophisticated military arms in the world? You like collective punishment and disproportionate force, huh? :puke:

[alarimer]

54. Bingo. It is quite a disproportionate response.

To add to all the human misery Israel has caused by not allowing food, medicine, cooking fuel, you name it. I find their actions more and more reprehensible every year. We need to stop intervening in that part of the world. Cut off all the money and aid until they shape up.

[lightningandsnow]

13. I'm glad.

I mean, yes, Israel does have a right to defend itself TO A DEGREE. By which I mean, targeting terrorists carefully if need be.

This, however, is totally out of line. Holy crap. I mean, these are, largely, innocent people. (Yes, some of them - not all by any stretch - may ideologically support suicide bombings, but thinking "bad" thoughts shouldn't be a reason to kill someone, for chrissakes).

My family are huge zionists, and almost all of them flat-out hate arabs. It's sad, really. Apparently I'm the black sheep.

[skooooo]

14. Gee maybe Obama isn't so terrible after all..

:eyes:

[bigtree]

16. If only the determinations on issues and events were so comprehensive

. . . that his presidency could be defined by a mostly unknown position on just one of the myriad of those yet to be confronted and decided.

[cbc5g]

18. Ha you guys are WISHING

Rahm Emanuel will make sure Obama kisses Israels ass. We are their bitch and our policy won't change in respect to Israel in the next decade.

[bigtree]

22. I don't believe Rahm will dominate his boss

. . . on this issue or any other. He will provide reassurance for supporters of Israel that their views are being heard in the White House.

I actually believe the approach will be a Clintonian balance, with a determined sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians caught in the middle of the provocative and destabilizing politics from both sides.

[FLAprogressive]

19. let's hope this is a sign of things to come. nt

[indepat]

26. America cannot be an honest broker if it automatically ratifies every terrorist act committed

by a good guy wearing the white hat. :D

[Raineyb]

56. I don't see how the Palestinians would see us an honest broker

Honest brokers don't aid one side while telling the other it has to make concessions. Honest brokers don't block condemnations against one side while constantly condemning the other. I wouldn't trust this country as far as I can throw it as far as the Israel/Palestinian conflict is concerned. I'd be surprised if the Palestinians themselves did.

Regards

[biopowertoday]

28. hey.........

bigtree. nice to see you. I was not a member at the time--but one of the primary reasons I visited DU during the primaries was to read and see your posts. They were wonderful--the pics and the commentary. I felt like I could follow the primaries very well. So, a belated Thank you for the time you put into the OP's.

And Happy Hollidays to you.

I watched Ax.. today. He punted that is for sure. So the Question mark is very apropo.


later.

[bigtree]

31. hey biopowertoday

thanks for the props . . . those were also my favorite things to post in the election. I got just as much of the flavor and feel of the campaign from them as you apparently did.

I read the TPM post and then remembered I had just listened to the same exchange and didn't have the same take. He punted . . . was it strategic? We'll see.

see ya round___

[Marr]

32. I hope you don't really believe that "Jan. 20th honest broker" stuff.

If you do, I think you're going to be severely disappointed. Acting as an honest broker in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict would mean openly opposing both the establishment and the status quo, and I don't think Obama is that kind of man.

I hope you're right, but Obama seems more interested in courting the political establishment than opposing it.

[bigtree]

33. I think that there will always be an insitutional deference to Israel, both in Congress and the WH

. . . because they are an organized Democratic ally of the U.S. with a lot of solid support in the country.

But, there will also be what I perceive as a sympathy and dominant concern and care for the Palestinians caught in the way of the politics (and violence) directed and supported by leaders on all sides. With that care and concern, there is 'hope' that there will be a functioning 'even-handedness' to solutions and agreements which respect the sovereignty and safety of all citizens of both states with equal regard.

[Marr]

34. Then you're referring to a change in style, not substance.

We will continue subsidizing actions like the one Israel is presently engaged in, but we will refrain from public applause.

[bigtree]

37. I think subsudies to Israel will continue

. . . and the money to Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as well.

I think it's interesting that we have enabled into power and military dominance regimes in both Iraq and Afghanistan whose respective leaderships openly oppose Israeli aggression toward the Palestinians.

[ProgressIn2008]

38. I agree with Marr and I find the thought that this is a "silent signal" bizarre

If you think it's wrong, say it's wrong. Send a strong message. Say that policy will change. It's true -- the "one pres at a time" schtick is something to hide behind when convenient. If you're not hiding behind it, then don't hide behind it. This is an area where progressives have to demand change, out of the box -- Obama is a politician and it's our job to make him accountable.

I see Axelrod's statements as continuity -- I also don't see any great shift in "Obama understands the urge to respond militarily." The style may change but the substance will be what it ever was. And, if the statement that "Israel has the right to defend itself" is the litmus test, then Obama has expressed this idea several times:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-election/israel-has-right-to-defend-itself-from-attacks-says-obama/2008/07/23/1216492541245.html

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1205261307530

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:TIiJD3lVx4IJ:www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml%3FitemNo%3D756712+obama+lebanon+israel&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3371763,00.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/27/obama.aipac/index.html

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3517989,00.html

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/pebo-reax-to-is.html

[spin]

36. If I had a neighbor who kept launching bottle rockets...

at my house because he felt my house was his, I would call the police. If they ignored the situation and my own efforts to reach a friendly solution with my neighbor failed, I might finally decide that I had had enough. The results might not be pretty.

If the people in Juárez, Mexico started launching rockets at the people of El Paso Texas because they felt the land had been stolen from Mexico when American annexed Texas, how would our country react? By the way, the Mexicans may have a valid claim just as the Palestinians do.

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."
Rodney King

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. And, if your other neighbors had a supply of rockets and supported your neighbor's claim?

Not to mention a whole bunch of other, more distant, neighbors who also supported his claim?

Perhaps, it might be wise to discuss a settlement of his claim.

[spin]

51. It's always wise to discuss a settlement...

However, if all he wants is for me to leave and give the house to him than a settlement may not be possible. My only choice might be to fight back or live on the streets as almost everybody seems to hate my family. Seems many years ago some of my ancestors were involved in murdering someone and my family made a lot of money as bankers and businessmen. If some of my other neighbors also decide to join my neighbor in firing rockets, I guess I'll just have to deal with them too. Fortunately, I have this really nice arsenal.

Sounds like a situation that isn't going to end well.

Nor does it look like the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians will ever be peacefully resolved. Of course, the biggest problem is that if and when it gets out of hand and goes nuclear, the rest of the world will get sucked in.

A nuclear war can ruin your whole day.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. The "urge to respond" at this time is driven by the upcming Israeli elections.

The "we will defend the homeland" works in Israel too.

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken

[malaise]

43. Ding Ding we have a winner

By the way, has Sharon broken the world record for men in a coma?

[TahitiNut]

44. D'oh.

:thumbsup:

[Cults4Bush]

55. There it is!

It cuts all ways including with Hamas. But yeah, thats what its about.