To YOU, who think being gay is a "choice", and should be resisted for moral and responsible reasons.

[Lil Missy]

I am not at all addressing this to the majority of the members of DU. But only to the very few, from whom I have seen actual comments suggesting it is a feeling that should just be resisted, and stuffed. Like some character fault such as drinking from the milk carton, or putting off cleaning the cats litter box.

Excuse me, but how about I make you drink a bottle of laxative, lock you out of the bathroom, and tell you that you're not allowed to shit?

And please, this crap about boiling it down to a moral or socially responsible "choice" for some character flaw, as weak as that argument may be, is such hypocritical nonsense on it's face. Really, if YOU cannot help yourself to make simple decisions to stop attention whoring, constantly groaning about trivial shit that most of us got over in High School, or procrastination about taking out the fucking trash, being late for work or appointments all the time, etc., then how do you dare challenge ME?

Let me make this clear, I think that is a stupid argument anyway. My sexuality is woven into my entire being, and I do not compare it with character flaws that I have the ability to change. But if that is the way you feel, then you go take care of your own side of the street first, kay?

And also, if you do insist being gay is a "choice", then that's fine with me too. That would make it MY choice, and STILL none of your goddamned business! I have absolutely no interest or curiosity about you or your relationships, or what you do in the bedroom. And really, it IS the fact that most of it all boils down to what bigots like you imagine what goes on in MY bedroom that creeps me out the most.

GET OUTTA MY BEDROOM!

And PS - go clean the litter box.

[Fumesucker]

1. As a heterosexual I know damn well I never "chose" what would arouse me sexually..

I assume it works the same way for just about everyone else too, straight or gay.

[Lil Missy]

5. Thank you. My favorite question, (to whom very few straights I would ever allow such a discussion),

is "When did you decide you were straight?" The answer is always that they have always known, and/or never questioned it.

My point, exactly.

[Fumesucker]

7. I grew up in the time when virtually all homosexuals were closeted at least to some extent..

But my mother was an antique dealer and a number of her colleagues and friends were gay males, they treated me, a rather odd little boy, with more respect and humanity than just about anyone else.

I never forgot that.

[Lil Missy]

10. OMG, gay men are just the bestest! I think they should be the ONLY ones allowed to raise children!

Hell, I'd feel a lot safer with a gay male couple than I would with the rest of society.

My second choice would be the Mafia.

[Fumesucker]

15. LOL... I'm not sure if I would go quite that far..

But if you are on the strange side you generally get more sympathy from those who are also a little different themselves, even if they aren't different in quite the same way you are.

My parents were fine, it was just most of the rest of society that sucked as far as I was concerned. :)

Which I'm pretty sure was why I ended up a DFH, we were those who didn't fit anywhere else and called ourselves "freaks", you could act weird and no one thought anything of it because they were weird too. :evilgrin:

[Lil Missy]

18. LOL! Well, thanks for the grins and chuckles. But I am not particularly strange either.

I'm just kinda, like sorta, okay REALLY, queer!

:hi:

[Fumesucker]

22. You may not be strange...

But you are different than the "norm".

It's a matter of perspective, a lot of us really have a hard time putting ourselves in the shoes of another but if your cultural "shoes" are uncomfortable then you are a lot more likely to understand someone else who has uncomfortable shoes even if they are different style than the ones hurting your own feet.

[Lil Missy]

28. I understand what you mean. ;-)

I kinda pride myself in having different "shoes". And believe me, my being gay is the LAST and LEAST reason my "shoes" are different. But, I feel especially rewarded in life that I am drawn to, and seem to attract, those who have seen some adversity.

I am totally bored with, and have absolutely nothing in common with totally innocent, naive, and clueless shits that have lived the life of Beaver Cleaver, or Holly Hobby. Not that I'd ever be impolite or rude or give them any crap about it, they just bore my fucking brains out.

So yeah, I do like my different "shoes". But a lot of it I could have sure done without!

:)

[Chulanowa]

11. I've had to break it down further for them

Because they think that everyone is by "default" heterosexual and anything aside from that is a "choice"... Well, I of course feel obligated to point out the facets of heterosexuality that are not a choice.

For instance, I cannot CHOOSE to be unattracted to flat butts or passive-aggressive personalities. I did not CHOOSE to go ga-ga over redheads and women with morbid humor. The fact that my "perfect woman" is a lady with a great smile who shows it often and isn't put off by absurdist humor is not something that I sat down one day and decided. it's simply what I respond to, and I can't help it.

It's acting against your natural inclinations that is the choice. And that's the point. These cretins want gay people to be someone else.

[Lil Missy]

21. That's a very good analysis. And like the stuff I'd like to scream, you can change that "choice"!

But, why should you? Or they? Or I? It's natural!

Thus, my laxative analogy. And I'll not elaborate any further on that.

[Shiver]

40. We have the same taste in women it seems

Well, except for the flat butts and passive-aggressive personalities. The latter tend to show up, along with other less attractive qualities and mindsets, well into my relationships...

Redheads, morbid senses of humour, and great smiles, though? :loveya:

[defendandprotect]

2. What always shocks me is ....

those who think that sexual orientation is a choice . . . because IMO

what they are really saying is that they are bi-sexual!!

If you're making a "choice" about your sexual orientation, that's pretty

much what it amounts to.

[Lil Missy]

6. That's an interesting observation. And I never thought of it that way.

In my experience, those who insist most loudly that being gay is a "choice" are all straight as an arrow.

But there IS also that phenomenon of people having certain desires or feelings both ways, even though they are primarily straight. However, they would never admit to such feelings due to the perceived shame and ostracism they'd get.

Thus again, it just proves how hard it is for gays to come to terms and come out honestly. Because it can easily result in tremendous shame and actual abandonment from friends and family. Nobody wants to invite that into their lives.

For some, it is a matter of life or death.

[xchrom]

17. respectfully i disagree -- i'm gay -- BUT --

i've certainly had fun sex with people of the opposite gender.

but i am not -- not -- bisexual.

[Lil Missy]

24. oh man, you had fun with the "opposites"? I absolutely hated it!

But, I did get a kid out of the "experimentation during denial".

And that was certainly worth the temporary discomfort.

[defendandprotect]

43. Are you denying the existence of bi-sexuality ...???

I certainly wasn't referring to you -- nor any other specific person ...

Some are bi-sexual and can fall in love with either gender ....

but as I understand it from a few who can comment on this, it is really

about the individual male or female -- not their gender.

[Lil Missy]

44. I cannot peak for xchrom, but I am not sure how you came to that conclusion?

I did not see it at all as denying the existence of bi-sexuality.

And honestly, your first post was a bit difficult to parse as well.

Suffice it to say that you and I can agree that bi-sexuality does exist. I've fucked a few men, but I'm 100% queer. :)

[defendandprotect]

48. But, again, this isn't about ...

YOU ... especially if you understand you are NOT bi-sexual. !!!

[Lil Missy]

49. Alrighty then! You're right, it's not about ME, and I am so humbled and very embarrassed now.

:blush:

I thought I was the one that started this thread. And that you had responded to the OP in the way I framed the issue. But, I was obviously mistaken.

Please accept my sincere apologies, and carry on.

[defendandprotect]

53. I confirmed your original OP ...

and you didn't seem to get that, either.

People often fall in love more than once. There are obvious attractions that

are continual. If you are hetereo, all of that revolves around the opposite gender.

If you are bi-sexual, it can be either gender. We don't control who is on our

sexual grid.

And. as I stated earlier, when someone like a church leader suggests that

human sexuality is a "choice," then my opinion is that they may be bi-sexual.

According to Kinsey's grid, dual attractions should be more common; the fact that

they are NOT seems to suggest societal/religious controls.

A good indication of how dumbing-down of whole socities thru religion is widespread

was the HIV/AIDS experience in Brazil where married women were getting HIV/AIDS.

Eventually, it became clear that husbands were having sex with other males.

The Doctors were astonished and said, "We had no idea that so many Brazilian

males were bi-sexual."


All of that is contrary to this observation --

"The human self defines itself and grows through love and work --

all psychology before and after Freud boils down to that."

Betty Friedan

[davidinalameda]

3. very few?

you're being generous

[Lil Missy]

9. Yes, I am. (being generous) And I'll tell you why, dwickham.

This kind of thing is very hurtful for me to hear and read. And I know you know why.

I have only read a few posts on this topic, and the few things I did see convinced me I could not bear to see anymore. My post only addresses the few butthead people and stupid comments I did see. And I doubt my post will ever fly across their radar anyway!

You are right, I am sure there is a lot more of this crap out there. I just don't want to see it, and I am sure not going to look for it. I can't take this crap anymore.

I saw news and Political Videos on DU recently suggesting I must be a pedophile, I must be fucking my relatives, or even animals. It just made me cry. And it makes me cry again to just respond to this.

You keep fighting the good fight, and I commend you. I just don't have the stamina for it anymore.

[davidinalameda]

33. don't give up

take a break and come back stronger

[Lil Missy]

36. I usually stay out of it here. I meant more in personal life and social situations.

[defendandprotect]

54. Just wanted to also comment on this ...

The right wing propaganda and religious brainwashing is sadly too effective --

it is up to all of us who understand freedom and Human Rights -- gay, straight

or otherwise -- to continue to attack this propaganda which suggests that

homosexuals are in any way inferior. This is no different from other widespread

religious propaganda, whether about the "inferiority" of women or Jews, Africans

or native peoples.

[BlooInBloo]

4. Since there's nothing wrong with being gay, it doesn't make one whit of difference....

whether it's a choice or not.

Granting that it matters whether it's a choice or not is tantamount to granting that there's something wrong with it in the first place. I don't grant the later, so I don't grant the former.

[Lil Missy]

14. Thank you. But "choice" does seem to be a matter to some. Otherwise,

.. gays would not be killed or having the shit beat outta them for it. Or have to endure other hate crimes, or something as simple as loss of employment.

I don't think it should matter either, but we are a looooooong ways from that right now in this country. Or even on DU.

[yowzayowzayowza]

8. I've no interest in yer preferred methods & modes of genital deployment

hetero-, homo-, bi-, pan-, pomo- er a-sexual. I agree with ya on the creepiness of the 'curiosity' too.

[Political Heretic]

13. The fact that you think that homo, bi, pan, etc. is defined simply by "genital deployment" is wrong

This is part of the problem.... being gay, bi, straight, trans or something else entirely (as I would consider myself) is not defined by where you put your dick or how you utilize your vagina. It's not a sexual choice, its an entire being-hood and is a biological, emotional, mental, physical, environmental, historical confluence of things that comprise one's being.

You could never have sex in your entire life and identify as gay. It's not about "sex."

[yowzayowzayowza]

30. No Way!!!!

Sex is more than physical? I never new that!!!!

[Political Heretic]

12. Link me to one quote of a DUer saying that who isn't TS'ed.

As they said on the internets.... screenshot or it didn't happen!

[Lil Missy]

16. Now, you KNOW I cannot call anyone out personally. And, if you'd prefer to think

I just pulled this all outta my ass, that's fine with me too. I don't know you, I've never seen you before, and I'm not gonna prove SHIT to you.

That kinda crap does not work with me, and shame on you for asking. So, nothing happened, I just made it up, there is nothing to see here, just move along.

And btw, bite me.

[KG]

19. heh.

i know who they are. some by their words, some by their silence on the this recent subject.

rather amusing, that latter crowd.

[Lil Missy]

20. Oh yeah. You I have seen before. And I'll bet you do know the "person", and yet his silence.

Gives me a damned butt ache, he does.....

[Fumesucker]

25. Thank Gawd It Passed n/t

[uppityperson]

27. While it wouldn't surprise me, seriously?

Of all he has written, I thought he was better than that.

[Political Heretic]

23. You paste the quotes then, without the names - or link to the thread, then I can find them myself.

I think attempts to make me out to be the bad guy for asking to see where this has happened really won't stick.

I just find it so hard to believe that someone would say something the exact way you phrased it, and I'd like to know if they really did or if I feel you're putting words in their mouth. That's pretty fair of me to request... skepticism is a good default position.

Don't mistake this for denying that nastiness in the debate exists, or trivializing the seriousness of the issue. Further more, I couldn't agree more with your rejection of such a ridiculous talking point as the "its a choice" one.

But that doesn't mean I check a critical eye at the door... you said you've personally witnessed DUers making very specific statements and I'd like to see them, or I remain skeptical that they haven't been filtered heavily through an interpretive lens.

[Fumesucker]

26. I haven't seen those particular quotes... But..

Just this evening I saw a poster call Bristol Palin "a slut who is banging a meth dealer's son"..

I suspect such a person wouldn't be averse to saying what the OP claims.

The post has been (properly) deleted but here's a link to a reply..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4692348&mesg_id=4692415

[Political Heretic]

32. Ugg.... see, I never happen to see this stuff as I'm browsing....

...that's pretty bad. :/

[Lil Missy]

29. No. I am not playing this stupid game with you. It's fine with me if you just call me a liar.

I have already made it clear that I am angry, hurt, and vehemently disagree with this person. I also made it clear that this person does not seem to be able to apply such rigid rules to his very irritating character flaws.

Now, that does not mean that I wish to publicly humiliate this person. (That is against the rules anyway, and justifiably so.) And I certainly won't do that just for your curiosity, or satisfying this pointless game of your requesting some proof. Go read for your own damn self.

Really, there is nothing to see here. I just made it all up. Time to move along now ...

[Political Heretic]

31. I didn't realize, I guess, that it was just one person.

You OP said "the very few" and I didn't realize it meant just one.

I'm not suggesting you made anything up. But there's absolutely zero wrong with me wanting to see for myself so I can make my own judgments. I'm not going to read anything into the fact that you don't want to do that, especially if its really personal with just one individual or something. But its more than reasonable for me to want to see things for myself.

You say, "Go read for your own damn self." -- how am I supposed to do that if I don't know where to begin? I've certainly never seen what you're talking about here.

Again, I'm not suggesting you're making anything up for heaven's sake. I'd just like to see the context for myself - that's a right I will always reserve.

[Lil Missy]

37. I'm sorry if I sounded snarly about it.

I did have one particular person in mind, but I've seen it from others too. And I am not a prolific reader of the threads on this topic, yet it was easy to come across after reading just a few.

:hi:

[PurityOfEssence]

34. Great point: even if it IS a choice, what's the problem?

I'll go to my grave believing that much of the hatred and discrimination leveled at non-heterosexual people comes from the belief that they're fucking ALL THE TIME, while I never get ANY and have to suffer for the little I do. They're just plooking up a storm and having all the fun that I only dream of, and I relish the thought that god's gonna love me and have me over for non-caffeinated tea while they writhe in a pit of fuck-free fire FOREVER.

People are weird about sex, and a lot of it is just pure jealousy of those who let themselves have a good time. Never mind that the vast majority of people of all persuasions are sexually frustrated, never get enough, and have problems with their partners because they, too, are sexually frustrated, etc.

Science is pretty damned clear that it's not a choice, and denying those programmed that way the freedom to play out that particular part of their destiny is a crime literally against nature. Besides, if everyone had more and better controlled sex, there would be less unwanted children and less disease. This, of course, is deeply wrong because the big Sky Chief conclusively said that "thou shalt not fuck" except to increase the tribe so we can have enough footsoldiers to fend off the evil tribe on the other side of the hill.

It comes down to jealousy, and the joke is that it's misdirected: plenty of non-heterosexual people have rather tame or truly thwarted sex lives.

Meanness, selfishness and jealousy; those are the main reasons for prejudice of this sort, and religion is a handy amplifier for it as well as a true root cause.

Your point is wonderful, though: who cares if it's truly elective and governed by mere whim and pure choice? There's nothing wrong with anything of this sort if it's consensual, and it's bad for the attitude to skip too much of the good stuff of life...

[Lil Missy]

35. I appreciate you seeing my point about choice. But I do not want to minimize the fact that

it really is not a choice, at least for 99% of the gay population. And that is where the hurt and misunderstanding then the subsequent bigotry, discrimination and hate come in.

Thanks for you comments.:hi:

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Me neither; I thought I made that clear

It's natural. It's normal. It's everywhere.

Mercifully, science has repeatedly PROVEN this, too.

[Gore1FL]

38. Who in this board thinks it is a choice? n/t

[Lil Missy]

41. They seem to be mysteriously absent in this thread....

[DevonRex]

39. People who think it's a choice are flat-out stupid at least.

They love to hate other people.

I asked a very Catholic friend of mine if she chose who to have her first girlhood crush on, thinking it might cause the lightbulb to turn on. She said, yes, she DID choose. She could have chosen to have a crush on either sex.

What do you say to somebody like that? Nothing. They're hateful and dumb.

[MH1]

46. Wrong.

I think there is scientific evidence now that supports the theory that sexual orientation is biological, but that evidence is fairly recent. (Okay since the 80's or so.) Also, I know a person that I am sure engaged in homosexual behavior out of choice (he was bi). I am sure because of things he told me. Since this was the closest I've been to a person on the GLBT spectrum, how did I know that he wasn't typical? Was I "stupid" because I didn't know? I only know now because I've read evidence. And even then I don't really know, frankly, because I haven't researched it enough to know that what I read was valid - because to me it just doesn't matter! As I posted below, what two consenting adults (or more) do with each other privately is no one's business. Whether it's "choice" or biological is irrelevant. (Except for the fact that too many people think it's an "immoral" choice. THAT's the problem.)

[Lil Missy]

47. Yeah, I wish I had a buck for every straight person who said they "chose" to be straight.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

55. Probably...

that they are bi-sexual --

[DevonRex]

57. I think she realized that she HAD to say it was a choice, since doing

otherwise would contradict her church's teachings.

[MH1]

45. It shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not.

Even if it is a choice, it is a perfectly valid one. Like you said:
GET OUTTA MY BEDROOM!

But not being gay, I can only guess that it's important for GLBT's to emphasize that it isn't a choice, because if it is a choice then it leaves the door open for the "immoral" argument. Which is a shame, because it's bullshit that anyone should have anything to say about what consenting adults do with each other in private.

[Waiting For Everyman]

50. Very frankly, I couldn't care less if it's a choice or not.

And I want everybody to have the same rights. Regardless. It's a pointless argument to me - all sides of it.

I'm not the slightest bit interested in somebody else's bedroom, and I want the nosy micromanagers out of my life too... in their myriad ways of doing that.

When the nanny-state can get all the BIG STUFF right - such as refraining from collapsing the economy, then they can think about the micro stuff in their spare time. And btw, that day ain't never gonna dawn.

[Lil Missy]

51. Very well said. You get a doughnut!

[Lil Missy]

52. No responses at all from the "particular" bigots. Fucking cowards. So, doughnuts for everyone!

[defendandprotect]

56. Maybe it's a good sign that ...

they are waking up--

Or even just simply understand that their prejudiced comments no

longer receive support -- and, in fact, will be attacked.

[Lil Missy]

58. OMG tonight. kick again.

Somebody talk me down.

[Fearless]

59. Uh-oh... Someone standing up for their ideals...

LOOK OUT! DU's NOT READY FOR YOU YET!

:eyes:

[Lil Missy]

60. You are just saying that!

Because it's true ... :P