I came across your recent statement calling my present activities "unwise and untimely".

[ulysses]

(...)

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

(...)

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "Letter from Birmingham Jail"
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Also of note in the letter: a nifty little passage about how injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

Those with ears are invited to hear.

[opihimoimoi]

1. Well said..... :o)

:toast:

[ulysses]

2. damn, opihi -

Pretty incendiary sig line there. :D

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Hey, I thought all the revolting voters

were Republicans.

[ulysses]

7. some just don't know it.

;-)

[kenny blankenship]

3. Tut tut! Reasonable people can disagree about the need for racial segregation

And since, as reasonable people, we can just agree to disagree it would be much more pleasant and reasonable if we simply avoid bringing the matter up ever again. We'd only come around to the same place of reasonable and polite disagreement, so why risk strained feelings and expend the energy we could use for worthier topics, such as extending Bush's tax cuts for the rich--keep them 4 more years or make them permanent?

[ulysses]

8. !

No worries about you having missed my point. :D

[Mark Twain Girl]

5. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never."

[ulysses]

9. across all contexts, yup. n/t

[shadowknows69]

58. Never huh?

I guess I'd better turn in my black friends to their owners and tell my wife her vote wasn't counted.

[ulysses]

60. you completely missed the point.

Full black enfranchisement was achieved *in spite of* those who didn't think it was a good time to fight for it, or ever would have.

[shadowknows69]

61. Conceded. Sorry I misunderstood.

[madmadmad]

6. THANK YOU, BUT I'M AFRAID THEY JUST DON'T GET IT- THOSE EARS ARE HELD SHUT.

[ulysses]

10. they were in 1963 as well.

Keep speaking.

[1776Forever]

11. Please see my post concerning the issue of justice for all......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4688627&mesg_id=4688627

[ulysses]

12. I did - nicely put.

:thumbsup:

[1776Forever]

13. Thank you - this is very close to my heart. I am a Democrat for this reason alone!

I pray for a day when all minorities have all the rights our Constitution affords them!

I loved your post! Thank you!

[KG]

14. the biggest lesson i've from 7 years on DU is: the right thing should only be done when

it's convenient for the dem party. :eyes:

[Mari333]

15. k and r.

just waiting for apologists to start telling you that the gay struggle is not as important as the black struggle.
hugs

[ulysses]

17. I'm waiting for that, too.

[KG]

25. and there you are! look out below!

only took 10 minutes!

[KittyWampus]

35. Ironically, a lot of DU'ers are essentially telling Obama to wait when it comes to breaching the

divide.

Some are really blinded by their anger.

[Bjorn Against]

40. Are you suggesting this move is breaching the divide? Seriously?

If you haven't noticed there are people all across the political spectrum who are extremely pissed over this choice. If this is a choice for unity then I would hate to see what a divisive choice looks like.

[KittyWampus]

When people are usedd to the status quo and someone begins the first stage of changing things

not very many people are usually happy.

[Bjorn Against]

59. Rick Warren does not represent changing things, he represents moving backwards.

[Radical Activist]

16. I'd be thrilled if more people engaged in direction action tactics

in support of gay marriage. I'd help out with that effort. Pissing and moaning on a message board about a meaningless prayer to an imaginary god sure as hell won't get it done.

[ulysses]

18. let's organize it then, since we're all here.

[Radical Activist]

19. I wrote to change.gov

I went to the stop h8 rally in my town after it passed.
Any other suggestions?
If I had tickets to the inauguration I'd be making plans. The poster who suggested everyone turn their backs on Warren is a good one and would get national media attention. It would rob him of whatever credibility he'll gain from the prayer. Encouraging everyone who attends the inauguration to do that sounds like a good plan to me.

[ulysses]

22. not bad at all.

Wish I could be at the inauguration as well.

Beyond that - well, the sad fact is that the society needs to evolve. Not sure how we help make that happen, if it's even possible to speed it along.

[Solly Mack]

20. K&R

[IndianaJones]

21. not the same. the civil rights are different now. nt.

[ulysses]

23. how so?

I assume you mean different beyond superficial differences like separate drinking fountains.

[IndianaJones]

24. those were different times. reaching out is the key in these times. nt.

[ulysses]

26. why was "reaching out" not the key then? what makes it the key now?

[IndianaJones]

27. they weren't patient back then. its a new strategy. nt.

[ulysses]

28. who wasn't patient back then? and why is it a new strategy?

[IndianaJones]

31. don't know...maybe its a bad strategy. nt.

[ulysses]

34. so...this doesn't equate to black civil rights because of a new, bad strategy?

[IndianaJones]

36. maybe they are kinda the same. nt.

[ulysses]

37. :)

Fair enough.

[mitchtv]

32. Gay rights aren't REALLY that important

Hence, be patient

[mitchtv]

29. Different ie:

Not for LGBT, different , not a priority for the majority, Different :wait; Different: shut up; Different:, you are different, go away

[ulysses]

30. I think I agree with you.

That was a little difficult to parse, though. :)

[BR_Parkway]

33. Damn, you had to go and screw up my meaningless whining and outrage

with inspirational quotes. Now what am I going to do?!

[ulysses]

39. that's me, Mr. Inspiration.

:D

[KittyWampus]

38. There are many DU'ers who are telling Obama to wait on breaching the divide and reaching out a

to those in the dark.

As long as a political leaders doesn't reach out to YOUR enemies, it's fine.
As long as a political leader doesn't use whatever occasion YOU deem out of bounds.
As long as a political leader approaches the opposition in terms YOU dictate.

You anger has blinded you to your hypocrisy.

Obama pledged to reach out to the bigots and start bringing people together but YOU WANT HIM TO WAIT.

[ulysses]

43. he can reach out to the bigots all he wants.

What I'd *hoped* he'd do was help them evolve a little. Putting Warren on the inaugurational stage "as is", with no precondition of having even tried to evolve, does nothing except elevate bigotry.

I don't think this is even *about* bringing people together. I think it's about showing a certain controversial population the underside of a Greyhound by way of increasing bona fides with the fundies.

[BeFree]

47. Y'know

That "no precondition" term is one I've heard before. Hmmm, and it was just recently, too.

But I never heard Obama say he was gonna throw anyone under the bus, so I guess he broke no promise?

Too: all this, and we thought Obama was a genius politician just because he won the election.
Now he's just f'ed up. Look how wrong we were then: Fooled again. But now, were all geniuses? OkeeDokee

[ulysses]

48. Warren != Ahmadinejad

There's also this: one can be a genius politician and fail to do the right thing at times.

[Bjorn Against]

44. I refuse to come together with bigots.

If you want to sit and hold hands with hate groups while you sing Kumbaya that is your thing, but I will raise hell if anyone tries to get me to join in the festivities.

[KittyWampus]

55. who said anything about singing Kumbaya? Certainly not me. I've never even implied it.

[ulysses]

56. what *do* you expect to come out of all this, then?

[EFerrari]

41. "How long?" "Not long!" and it's more recent variant,

NOT THIS TIME

[Bjorn Against]

42. That is a great quote that really needs to be listened to right now.

K&R

[EFerrari]

45. I can't thank you enough for posting this.

"But now I must affirm that it is just as wrong, or perhaps even more so, to use moral means to preserve immoral ends."

[ulysses]

46. I appreciate your continued eloquence on the topic.

:) :thumbsup:

[scarletwoman]

49. Well done, Uly. Here's my k&r -- sorry, I'm about out of words.

I'm too amazed that there are people who think that granting credibility and legitimacy to a spokesman for a vile regressive socially destructive medieval philosophy is a worthy act of inviting "unity".

sw

[Shiver]

50. I hate to say this...

...but bringing up the African American civil rights movement goes against the idea of 'no compromise'. (That's not exactly accurate, but I can't think of the word I'm looking for)

To be brief, the AA Civil Rights Movement never let the ultimate goal out of sight - full racial equality - but they were willing to take the small victories and run with them. Small victories some would call compromises. The Birmingham bus boycott gained them the freedom to sit where they chose on the buses of one town - seems small, doesn't it, in the grand scheme?

In a way, it was. But it was a victory, and an important one, one that, along with prior small victories, aided the overall struggle. They celebrated each of these victories, then went back for more.

My overall point is, I think, that you shouldn't compromise (I still can't think of that damn word!). But don't reject the victories you can achieve, simply because you haven't managed to snag the great prize yet.

Win the small battles and you will win the war. Go for it all in the first charge, and you run the serious risk of losing it all and increasing resistance against you.

(disclosure: My knowledge of the civil rights movement is sadly limited, although quickly expanding. If I made any mistakes in my references, or if I'm missing some additional, mitigating circumstances, I apologize. Additional apologies in advance if this offended anyone in any way that I did not foresee.)

[ulysses]

51. fair enough, but I don't see anyone rejecting small wins here,

except, perhaps, where what some might see as a small victory (civil unions) is, in truth, a separate-but-equal status, which is no victory at all.

[Shiver]

53. Civil unions that provide exactly the same federal status

a "regular marriage" would be a good step in the right direction.

[ulysses]

54. no.

For the same reasons that "separate but equal" isn't equal.

[MedleyMisty]

62. I'm married

My husband and I are both atheists. Not even agnostic. Straight up religion is evil atheists.

The word "marriage" has shit to do with religion. It's a cultural word that belongs to all of us who grew up in a society that calls the legal binding of two romantically involved adults who have chosen to live together and pay taxes together and be responsible for property in common and perhaps raise children together marriage.

Is it okay to have a school for black kids and a school for white kids? Different water fountains? Maybe even have white and black people share a bus as long as the black people sit separately in the back?

Oh well - at least I have my husband's siblings. When I hate the human species too much, they remind me that the majority of people my age and younger support equal rights for all. The youngest just turned 15 last week and lives with us because my husband's father is quite mentally ill and his house is not fit for human habitation. She is very passionate about it. So is everyone at her high school. She does have one friend who's been brainwashed at church, but she's changing that friend's mind. With the help of massive peer pressure - and peer pressure is such a strong force at that age.

Oh, for the regional bigots - one of her social studies teachers has the political compass graph posted on his door. He had his students take the test and post their results. Almost all of them are in the bottom left quadrant.

And yes, as far as I know she's mostly hetero, although I've noticed in talking about it that she and her middle sister, the 18 year old, both see gender preference as fluid and think that most people are at least somewhat bi. And all of us are quite excited about seeing Milk - I'm hopefully going tonight.

So there is hope. I think that I will see equal rights in my lifetime. We should fight for it right now but I do find it comforting to think that even if we don't win now, the bigots are dying out and my generation will be in power in a couple decades.

But that doesn't mean that we should settle now. I remember the story of the couple in their...80s, was it?...who got married in California when it was legal. People who won't be around when we're in power can't wait. And no one should have to wait for a right anyway.

[Shiver]

68. I never said 'settle'

Fight for what you can win, then fight for more. Don't stop until you have it all, but don't neglect or turn down the small victories. Each one will win over more hears and minds to your cause.

[bvar22]

52. I hear, and I cheer.

The recent uproar is NOT about a "GLBT" Issue.
The uproar is about an "American" Issue, and a Democratic Party Issue.
Equal Rights and Equal Protection for ALL!
There is NO compromise.
There is NO Middle Ground.
There is NO valid "Centrist" position.
There is NO room to "negotiate with" the BIGOTS.
There are NO concessions to be made.
Period.

[ulysses]

57. easy there, purist.

Someone reading this might get the idea that you actually want something from your party, and you damned well know we can't have that. :D

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. Amen!

[ulysses]

64. thanks, GPV.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

65. Kick

[DeSwiss]

66. K&R!!!

- Very well said....

[AntiFascist]

67. K&R...

Obama's choice was unwise and untimely in light of the current CA Supreme Court fight over Prop 8, but I guess compromising with the Religious Right on the national stage trumps a tiny civil rights battle in a particular state which does not jibe with President-Elect's religious convictions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. Whether they heard, or thought of it independently, here's "Sadly No!" on the same piece:

Letter From A Birmingham Gay Bar
My Dear Fellow Progressives,

While debauching here at Partners, I came across your statements calling my present actions “unwise and untimely”. Seldom do I pause to answer criticism of my work and ideas. If I sought to answer all the criticisms that cross my desk, my girlfriends would have little time for anything other than such correspondence in the course of the day, and this would seriously cut into our cold honey and vodka sex orgy time. But since I feel that you are men of genuine good will (or confusion; I always get those two mixed up) and that your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I will try to answer your statements in what I hope will be patient and reasonable (and reasonably fabulous) terms.

I think I should indicate why I am here in the Democratic party, since you have been influenced by the view which argues that the party is only inclusive for non troublemakers. I have the honor of serving as the president of the “I Hate the HRC” fan club, an organization consisting basically of me and a couple of my similarly minded loudmouthed friends. Some of my loudmouthed friends are actually members of the Democratic party, as hard as that might be to believe. Several months ago, the Democratic party asked the queer community to be on call to vote in favor of their chosen candidate for president. After some small token concessions we consented - mostly because we realized we didn’t have many viable alternatives. So I, along with several of my friends, dutifully lined up in November and cast a ballot for something we were assured would be “change”.

But basically, I am in the Democratic party because the injustice is here. Just as the righteously pissed-off fags of the Stonewall Inn left their cozy dancehall and slashed paddy wagon tires in the sixties, and just as Harvey Milk promised to recruit as many people as possible, so I am compelled to carry the demand for some halfway decent treatment and maybe just a shot at equality to a political party that I honestly don’t belong to. Like Harvey, I must work to spread equality even to people who pretend to be my friends but really wish I’d just shut up.

Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Happy Fagistan and not be concerned about what happens in the Democratic party. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, zombielike “Beltway consensus” idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds - even if we personally find their sexual practices icky.

...

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/15502.html