If it were Blacks who were not welcome to join Warren's Church - Would the outrage be different?

[1776Forever]

Last night on Rachel Maddow it was reported that "because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the lordship and leadership of Jesus in one's life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church."
--Quote from the Rick Warren's church website.

Here is the video - please rec the video and get it on the greatest page! This needs to be seen!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x251918

This is just not right! If it were any other minority Warren would be put down by the entire Democratic Community but I still see post saying it's OK. READ MY LIPS "IT IS NOT OK!".

Warren should remove himself and if he were any kind of decent man he would.

[Cid_B]

1. The difference to some people...

is that a significant portion of people believe that the GLBT lifestyle is a choice.

[1776Forever]

2. Well I for one am disgusted with that issue - Did the Black person choose to be Black?

Did the heterosexual choose to be that way? That is the difference to me between a Democrat and a Republican! The Democrat believes in the 14th Amendment and the Republican does not. Republican's believe they know everything and that they are God's chosen ones.

Flexing the Fourteenth Amendment: The New Inclusion of Gay and Lesbian Americans in the U.S. Constitution

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/8/7/4/8/p87480_index.html

Abstract:

While the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution has been interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court to protect African American civil rights since the 1950s, it was first cited as protective of gay and lesbian civil rights only in 1996. This work analyzes the new social construction of gay and lesbian civil rights within the historical context of African American civil rights. I find that such a comparative analysis is key to understanding contemporary debates relating to same-sex marriage, since same-sex marriage policy is richly based upon the historical struggle in U.S. society to recognize interracial marriage. Furthermore, though the complicated hierarchy of legal case scrutiny created in recent decades by the Court seems incompatible with democracy and indicates to us that Fourteenth Amendment values of equal protection and due process cannot be taken at face value in the American system of government, I find that the Court's new inclusion, albeit limited, of gays and lesbians in the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment shows us that the U.S. Constitution can still be a significant and promising source of rights. The Court now understands sexuality, like race, as a fixed characteristic. By constructing gays and lesbians as a legal entity in need of protection, the Court is making it easier for them to challenge discrimination.

[Divine Discontent]

4. thanks for the link

Warren just makes a fool of himself with Anne Curry - and he makes himself look very creepy! His view of Gay people is one that is very distorted - I know MANY Gay men, and I can't think of one that is cool with having multiple (running) partners just because it's natural, as Rick says. He's loopier than shit!

As a Gay, and a Christian - I know I chose one of those - and not the other. It's a shame that Rick Warren (and Miami guy, as you know) don't understand that. Such judgment over something they have no right to judge.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. Amen

I know MANY Gay men, and I can't think of one that is cool with having multiple (running) partners just because it's natural, as Rick says. He's loopier than shit!

I have several male homosexual friends - each has been with their partner/husband (I live in NJ) for 15 - 20 years.


I'm sorry (since you stated that you are gay) that this is happening. :hug:

I'm a bi-racial(black/white) heterosexual woman :-) and I agree with the o.p. If this were a church that did not accept black people (I know many black people that were appalled at the idea of Romney being President) - there would have a huge brouhaha.

Where's Rev. Al when we need him?

[Divine Discontent]

15. yep, come on Al!

and thank you for your kind words :hug:

[JustAnotherGen]

23. Your Welcome

:hug:

Now check this out!

;-)

Sharpton chides black churches over homophobia, gay marriage


“We must have this dialogue in the black church,” Sharpton said. “The black church must not be refuge for those who want to scapegoat and use violence on any community, including the gay and lesbian community.”



“Martin Luther King said there are two types of leadership — there are those who are thermometers, who measure the temperature in the room, and those who are thermostats who change the temperature,” Sharpton told the applauding crowd.

C'mon President Obama! Turn up the heat! :-)

[1776Forever]

40. Rev. Al Sharpton you have my respect and thanks! WOW! Al you are the man!

That made me feel good - thanks!

:hi:

[roguevalley]

39. people who spend that much time worrying about what people do with their

genitals are either hiding something or are sexually perverted. I think Warren is both.

[XemaSab]

3. Exactly

And I'll add to that: their Bible and their conventional wisdom tell them it is a choice.

[Jamastiene]

7. Lifestyle? Choice?

What lifestyle are you talking about and who the fuck would choose to be hated, beaten, raped, and constantly told god hates us by even many in our own political party? :wtf:

[Political Heretic]

9. Let's see ... that changes the fact that this is what many people think.... how exactly?

[Jamastiene]

10. Kissing their asses and fighting for THEIR beliefs doesn't change anything either.

Why does the right wing even open their mouths any more? The Democrats are doing all their work for them by fighting their battles for them.

[Political Heretic]

35. Really? Let's see.....

For a long time they sincerely believed what they were taught, my father - an evangelical pastor (then) - believed that homosexuality was a sin because the bible said so. He wanted people to be "saved" from that sin just like any other sin, out of his belief that he was called to preach a message of salvation, saving people from hell and helping them find peace and joy in Christ.

Now you can choose, if you want, to fixate on how stupid you may think those ideas are. However, when I've seen the tears streaming down my fathers face, in the privacy of his own closet, when he didn't know I was looking as he prayed to god for the "souls of the lost" and his worry that they wouldn't make it to heaven - I see something different. Something that I can be compassionate about. I see good, but ignorant intentions.

My father said that it was primarily my patience and compassionate attitude that caused him to see things differently in later life. He remains a christian in terms of personal faith, but he's no longer a pastor. He still believes that homosexuality must be a sin because the bible says so - but that's how he says it, exactly like that: it "must be..." as though it hardly makes sense to him. He doesn't "speak out" against gays or make it a subject of his life at all anymore, to be honest. Except for one time...

In 2006, he wrote an op ed for my local paper as a retired minister against our states anti-gay marriage amendment. He said that whatever his religious texts and personal beliefs tell him for his life, no one should be discriminated against in our laws, constitution or government...

...He would never have gotten to that point of understanding if he talked to people like you. Bottom line. So I don't know who this "they" is you speak of, but its not my father. And I'll wager it actually isn't a great many self-professed evangelical christians in America today.

[Cid_B]

13. That would be the GLBT lifestyle...

Just in case you missed it.

[JerseygirlCT]

16. That's utter nonsense

There is no "lifestyle" - there are lives. Real lives and real people.

This isn't about what kind of car you drive or whether you own a pet. Ones sexual orientation is not a lifestyle choice. It is innate.

Your continued insistence on using that term concerns me.

[Cid_B]

17. Again...

I am talking about what a significant portion of the American populace believes.

[Jamastiene]

19. And the fact that you've had it explained to you that is offensive as hell

and you continue to use those terms shows exactly how YOU really think and it's disgusting.

[Jamastiene]

18. I didn't miss a thing.

I know exactly what the poster is insinuating and that is what pisses me the fuck off. There is no goddamn "lifestyle." I live in the Bible Belt. My "lifestyle" is no damn different than any other poor person in my impoverished mostly STRAIGHT community.

Use of the words "choice" and "lifestyle" are very telling. I know exactly who a person is when they use those terms.

[Cid_B]

24. I have a military "lifestyle"

Tone down the sensitivity meter a bit and get a little less prissy. Somewhere 5 messages back the question was how some people could believe X. I gave a possible reason as Y.

Relax and have a zima.

[eridani]

12. There is no such thing as a GLBT "lifestyle"

GLBT people have LIVES!

[noamnety]

21. The Bigoted Lifestyle is a Choice.

I must be missing your point, because I'm not getting how it's a different better sort of bigotry so long as Warren preaches that GLBT folks don't deserve equal rights, they are sinners, they should be second class citizens, etc. because they are attracted to same sex partners for a nongenetic reason.

It's homophobic assholery either way.

[slackmaster]

25. That is exactly right, Cid_B

Many people hold that incorrect view. IMO until that is corrected, getting the civil rights of LGBT recognized and respected will be an uphill battle.

[NMMNG]

32. Years ago

a significant portion of people believed black people were mentally and genetically inferior to whites. They were wrong, and the people who believe being GLBT is a choice are also wrong. Pandering to them because they couch their "belief" in religion is only harming everyone.

[Mari333]

5. hatred of gay folks is still considered acceptable bigotry in this country

sad, but true. and until *some* leader gets up and speaks out against it, it will continue.
throwing a homophobe onstage wont help.

[Political Heretic]

8. I think it'd be even cooler, frankly

I like the symmetry of that. If Obama could get someone who didn't allow blacks at their church to give the invocation at his inauguration I think that would be pretty powerful symbol of change in the air.

[Fumesucker]

11. Such people exist..

Do you honestly think every single one would turn down an invitation to speak at the inaugural?

[Political Heretic]

34. I dunno, I never said they would or wouldn't

I just said it would be cool.

[Captain Hilts]

14. Yes, it would. Racism is not acceptable in our country and is condemned. nt

[Swamp Rat]

20. yes n/t

[terrya]

22. "homosexual lifestyle" - that's right out of the homophobic bigot's handbook.

Another homophobe on DU. Gosh, what a surprise. :eyes:

[Cid_B]

26. Right...

I must hate and detest gays because I used the wrong word according the LGBT scouting handbook. Got it.

[leftofthedial]

27. I can't wait to read the DLC-right wing-status quo bloc's bizarre rationalization

of this one.

[earth mom]

28. Which is why Obama, as an African American, should recognize the discrimination

that Warren is promoting. Obama should know better than this. :grr:

[Lex]

30. A generation ago, Rev. Warren would've ordered Obama to the back of the bus.

nt

[Stinky The Clown]

29. I am solidly on the side of gay rights, but this post bothers me .......

...... I am very uncomfortable using analogies with black people to make points about gay people..

I get your point.

I agree with you.

I am simply not comfortable with the imagery.

[Lex]

31. Equality and civil rights

is the topic.

[peacebird]

38. Actually I feel that the blacks/GLBT analogy is perfect in this instance

This is the letter I sent to Obama's Civil Rights group at Change.gov:
Equal rights for all. Is there a more basic American Civil Right? Work towards making sure our GLBT citizens are granted equal rights and equal protections under the law. Remember that it was only a short while ago when the relationship Obama's own parents would have been forbidden, and their marriage illegal. I ask again - what is a more basic Civil Right than full equality for all citizens regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation?

[1776Forever]

36. You can substitute Hispanic or any other minority then.

I only used the Black reference because of the 14th Amendment that was created to defend their rights:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause

In response to the Black Codes, Congress enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which provided that all those born in the United States were citizens of the United States (this provision was meant to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford), and required that "citizens of every race and color ... full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by white citizens."

[Bluenorthwest]

33. But of course, they allow divorced people

and even remarried people whom Jesus called whores and whoremongers. If it is about Jesus bein' in charge, then why do they not follow what the man said, and insist on things he did not say?
Hypocrites were the only people Jesus preached against more than he preached against divorce.

[1776Forever]

37. Hypocrites - Oh yes - This is the reason I quite my Bible Church in 1960.

The Minister kicked me out of the church for wearing a Kennedy for President badge. The reason I did it was because the church was blatantly handing out pamphlets against Catholics and Kennedy. I saw no reason for this and at 15 I couldn't have voted anyway. It was my way of protest against such idiocy that I felt Jesus would never approve of. I have never gone back to any structured Church since then but have thought of attending the United Church of Christ because of their views on inclusion for all.