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JFK suspect Charles Harrelson found dead in prison cell at age 69

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:24 PM
Original message
JFK suspect Charles Harrelson found dead in prison cell at age 69
Edited on Wed Mar-21-07 05:03 PM by shance
Woody Harrelson's dad found dead in prison cell at 69

By MARO ROBBINS and GUILLERMO CONTRERAS
San Antonio Express-News

Charles Voyde Harrelson, the hired assassin of a San Antonio federal judge, professional gambler and father of movie star Woody Harrelson, died last week in the maximum-security cell where he was serving two life sentences.

The cause appeared to be natural causes but an autopsy has been ordered, Traci Billingsley, said a spokeswoman for the U.S. Bureau of Prisons.

Prosecuted four times for three separate murders, the hitman was 69 when he died Thursday in the Colorado federal prison known as Supermax, home to high-profile inmates such as Unabomber Ted Kaczynski and World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef.

Although not a household name outside San Antonio, Harrelson earned notoriety and inspired hyperbole. He had reportedly claimed a dozen contract killings by 1982 when he was convicted of firing the sniper's bullet that killed U.S. District Judge John H. Wood outside his townhome.

"Anyone whose life he touched suffered from it,'' said Assistant U.S. Attorney Ray Jahn, one of the federal prosecutors who convicted Harrelson in the local federal courthouse that by the time of trial already bore the name of the slain judge.

Harrelson, born in the Southeast Texas town of Lovelady in Walker County, was the youngest of six children. One brother reportedly became a FBI agent. Another became a polygraph operator.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4649344.html


Info on Kennedy assassination

Harrelson has declared that he was involved in John F. Kennedy's assassination. Some think he was one of the three tramps photographed after being arrested on November 22, 1963, in a boxcar in the railyard near Dealey Plaza. Harrelson's arresting officer, Marvin L. Wise, claims that the three men in his custody were released after a few hours of questioning. The other arresting officer, David V. Harkness, testified that there were several individuals removed from the train that day other than the three individuals in the photograph. Dallas Police Department documents presented to the public in 1992 indicate that three transients arrested by Dallas officer W.E. Chambers with no connection to the assassination were jailed for six days for vagrancy, and that one of those men was named John Gedney.


After attempting to escape from the Atlanta federal penitentiary in 1996, Harrelson was transferred to Supermax prison ADX Florence, where he died March 15, 2007. Woody Harrelson had attempted to have his father's conviction overturned and secure a new trial to no avail.

Charles Harrelson, 69, was found unresponsive in his cell on March 15, 2007, and apparently died of natural causes, said Felicia Ponce, a Bureau of Prisons spokeswoman in Washington.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Harrelson

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hadn't heard that.
Thanks for the article. He was a dangerous man.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Father of actor Woody Harrelson.
Interesting.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting...
I am not a doctor -- but do any doctors out there know, if drugs can make a person look like they have died from heart problems?
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Wouldn't that qualify as closing the barn door after the cows got out? n/t
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. right, because no one 69 years old dies unless its a hit
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, it is logical to kill someone *after* they've run their mouths for decades.
Maybe Lady Bird slipped something into his food years ago that made his body gradually break down with the passage of time until eventually, after many years of lessening vigor, one of his vital systems stops working.

Now *that's* how you assassinate someone. With nature.


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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. there's a horse tranquilizer I only know of as ACE...
That supposedly drops someone dead of heart attack like symptoms within 20 minutes... and coroners don't even look for it, unless there is reasonable suspicion to look for it, and if the victim / suspect owns or works around horses...

Much like putting Visene in someones drink.. enough of it will drop them with stroke-like symptoms in 15 - 20 mins..

.. or so I've heard, from a few people I'd trust to know these things..


****DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME****


Ghost
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I've heard that Digitalis can
Edited on Wed Mar-21-07 05:01 PM by htuttle
...or extract of foxglove -- where digitalis comes from, IIRC.

on edit: Oops. Foxglove and Digitalis Purpurea are the same thing -- a plant. I think the prescription drug from it is named Digoxin.

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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Would a manager of a major life insurance company be aware...
of this drug for people that commit suicide; so that family members can get the Life insurance money, because it appears to be a death from natural causes?

If so -- how often does it occur?
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well, I think I first heard about it on "Columbo" about a hundred years ago
No idea how often it occurs, if it occurs.

:shrug:

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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks-- your right ....
I seen that on Columbo Tv shows too.:)

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good riddance.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Uh...
Woody Harrelson is an activist who supports many progressive causes. He is also Charles Harrelson's son.

Have some compassion and respect at this time, if not for the dead, then for the survivors. You never know who is reading these boards.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Oh, boohoo. The man murdered a FEDERAL JUDGE.
Edited on Thu Mar-22-07 11:15 AM by WinkyDink
Wikipedia: "This was the first assassination of a U.S. federal judge in the 20th century." Does that put the crime into perspective for you?

Woody can grieve perfectly fine without me.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. There's some legitimate speculation that he was set up and that he didn't kill the judge.
It would not surprise me - it seems apparent Mr. Harrelson knew a lot.

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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. Is KSM behind this?
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. LOL! Seems like he's been behind everything else.
So, why the heck not?

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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. Harrelson is also a former Jack Ruby Strip Bar Bouncer
Edited on Wed Mar-21-07 05:54 PM by PhilipShore
Charles Harrelson is also a former Jack Ruby Strip Bar Bouncer, and if that doesn't push all the skeptics over the fence, nothing ever will. In retrospect, if Jack Ruby could not rely on the man who committed paid murders for the mob, it is because Charles Harrelson had met his quota for November, 1963.

http://www.geocities.com/zzzpeace/nixon.htm

AMERICAN GUILD OF VARIETY ARTISTS

In August 1953 an FBI agent witnessed RUBY threaten the Branch Manager of the American Guild of Variety Artists (AFL-CIO/AGVA). RUBY said he would kill the man if he didn't stop asking him to pay his entertainers in advance. The AGVA representative explained that he had been pistol whipped by Joe Locurto, and he heard that RUBY was a hoodlum who had experienced financial difficulties because of the Kefauver investigation.

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec29.htm

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have seen the "hobo" photo's and it dooes indeed look like
Harrelson in the pic.

I didn't know about the Ruby connection verification, but it puts an interesting twist on things back on 22Nov63.

I always thought it was a mistake for the Warren Commission to NOT get Ruby of of Dallas and question him further, he knew a hell of a lot more than he ever spoke of, or, used as a "wedge" to get some lenient treatment.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Or --did they hire twins to "divert" from the real assassins?
Edited on Wed Mar-21-07 07:03 PM by PhilipShore
That is my theory; they are different people (the tramp and Harrelson), but one can only figure it out when seen at close range.

_____________________________________________________________





http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htm

The Three Tramps
Transcript of a slide presentation by Lois Gibson.


And you get another picture of Harrelson on trial, for murder, he was convicted in San Antonio, and on the left the tramp picture. Both of these men are blond. On the right the lighting is such that, you know, you can take a picture of a blond-headed person and it will come out looking brown, but he is definitely a blond-headed individual. The cheeks, the nose, the end-of-the-nose shape, the lips, the chin, .... all he has done is age on the right. That's the same, as far as you can be determined considering the time lapse, that is the same individual.




The Three Tramps
Transcript of a slide presentation by Lois Gibson.


http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htm

And if you look at Charles Harrelson on the right, from one of his arrest mug-shots, you can see that every single feature is consistent with the blond-headed tramp. Now, it's not available to me to be able to stop and go back in time and take a ruler and hold it next to the tramp's face, and then take a ruler and hold it next to Charles Harrelson after he is arrested. So I can't tell you an exact scale. But if you put them to approximately the same size, you can tell that this is just ... either is positively this individual or is an exact look-a-like. One particular important thing is that if you look at the side burn ... he almost has no sideburn, Harrelson, he just cannot grow a sideburn. And the hair is cut right at ... almost the top fifth of the ear. And if you look at the tramp, it's the same haircut.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I recall that there was a deaf/mute on the overpass when the shooting
took place.

He tried to get the police to look behind the fence, but frustration on all sides made the event come to nil.

There were cigarette butts found behind the fence and fresh footprints. There was also a RR guy in the tower who said he saw a person in white by the fence and he put something like a toolbox into a trunk after the shooting, closed the trunk and walked away unchallenged. Later, the car was gone, but its description didn't match any of the Rail workers vehicles.

Just about the only thing I'm a Conspiracy nut about is the JFK assassination, just far too many loose ends and "facts" that don't match up. My dad brought one of those Carcano's back from the war, and it was one serious piece of crap. Iron sights and I don't think you could hit a barn from 50 yards out.

But, the one thing that really gets me is something that happens when Oswald is told he has been charged with the murder of JFK by a reporter. I can understand, to a point why so many Dallas PD officers showed up at a theater for someone who didn't pay for a ticket; I can understand why so many would show up, but I can't relate as to why that would be any kind of event right after the murder of a president and Officer Tippet. But I digress, watch the look on Oswald's face when that reporter tells him he is charged w/killing the president. He recovers quickly, but at that point, he knows he's been had, and really IS the patsy.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I agree he probably was a patsy...
and it could of been someone -- that looked "exactly" like Oswald that was assassin.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. Oh my God! You're right, he looks *just like* Woody in this photo!
How creepy to think of major Hollywood types being tied to the Kennedy assassination.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
18. The article says he died last week. Why is it just being reported now?
Charles Harrelson, 69, was found unresponsive in his cell on March 15, 2007

:shrug:
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Just a shot in the dark here, but most people haven't the foggiest
who he is or some of the things he had done.

You have to go back to the 50's/60's to have heard the name as a "paid assassin", right up to when he shot the judge he was covicted for.

I'm figuring that most people didn't really have a clue who he was...if it were Charlie Manson, it would have been outin 30 seconds...:shrug:
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. The guy who ordered the JFK Assassination
Edited on Wed Mar-21-07 08:09 PM by PhilipShore
I have reviewed all of the data: and I have concluded that JFK was shot by a team of German secret agents (a Swat like team) posing as Russians.

The CIA figured this out shortly after JFK was shot; and they knew about the organization -- because they had used the Gehlen Organization -- in the past, but because of blowback -- the powers the be covered it up for fear it may cause a Nuclear war with the Russians.

The guy that organized the assassination is Reinhard Gehlen.


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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Oh...you've reviewed all the data...why didn't somebody else think of that?
Edited on Thu Mar-22-07 11:14 AM by Raskolnik
Case closed, then.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. No the case is open...
because the CIA was created because of and by him, and many spies like him -- former German war criminals. So it is time, for Congress to investigate the CIA with the goal of shutting it down.

If the general public knew the CIA was created and staffed by German war criminals, they would not be to happy.

It is also time, for Congress to open up all of the records over at the CIA.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. National Security Archive: Secret CIA History of The CIA and Nazi War Criminals
The CIA and Nazi War Criminals

National Security Archive Posts Secret CIA History
Released Under Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act


National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 146

Edited by Tamara Feinstein

February 4, 2005

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB146/index.htm">Link


Washington D.C., February 4, 2005 - Today the National Security Archive posted the CIA's secret documentary history of the U.S government's relationship with General Reinhard Gehlen, the German army's intelligence chief for the Eastern Front during World War II.

At the end of the war, Gehlen established a close relationship with the U.S. and successfully maintained his intelligence network (it ultimately became the West German BND) even though he employed numerous former Nazis and known war criminals. The use of Gehlen's group, according to the CIA history, Forging an Intelligence Partnership: CIA and the Origins of the BND, 1945-49, was a "double edged sword" that "boosted the Warsaw Pact's propaganda efforts" and "suffered devastating penetrations by the KGB."
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. That info on Gehlen is not new - but how does it prove
Edited on Thu Mar-22-07 11:43 AM by rman
the JFK hit team consisted of German secret agents?

Who would Gehlen (if he had anything to do with it) even need to have German agents come over to the US? He found plenty nazi sympathizers in the US.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
37.  They would not be safe in the United States
Who would Gehlen (if he had anything to do with it) even need to have German agents come over to the US? He found plenty nazi sympathizers in the US.

There was to much of a risk for them to use use Nazis -- in the United States -- because they could be hunted down, by Jews, or US Intelligence agencies.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
51. Right... Gehlen himself was a Nazi,
and as i said he found many nazi sympathizers in the US - Gehlen and his nazi sympathizers were not hunted down by Jews or US Intelligence agencies - in fact Gehlen was with the US Intelligence agencies, he practically created the CIA. You're saying he'd hunt down his own people.

The whole JFK assassination was a covert/black op, supposed to be kept secret, done by people who all the time do things that are supposed to be kept secret - why would Gehlen's nazi CIA agents and hired hands have any more problem keeping it secret than German secret agents would?
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. The Marathon Man: Is it safe?
Edited on Sat Mar-24-07 04:53 PM by PhilipShore
and as i said he found many nazi sympathizers in the US - Gehlen and his nazi sympathizers were not hunted down by Jews or US Intelligence agencies - in fact Gehlen was with the US Intelligence agencies, he practically created the CIA. You're saying he'd hunt down his own people.

There are many US Intelligence agencies -- in addition to the CIA -- also local and state law enforcement, with intelligence divisions. Genuine Nazis would be hunted down, and then they would talk -- so they used all non-Americans, so as to not blow their (the Nazi war criminals) cover in south America.

I think they even made a movie about it (Nazi fears of being in America) called The Marathon Man, with the classic line in it, "Is it safe?" -- being in the United States.



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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Can you point us to that evidence?
While I think it's quite possible that this former Nazi spy who essentially created the CIA played a role in the JFK assassination, the evidence that's in the public domain strongly points to the hit team(s) having consisted of anti-Castro/Mafia/CIA hired guns.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Not exactly true...
While I think it's quite possible that this former Nazi spy who essentially created the CIA played a role in the JFK assassination, the evidence that's in the public domain strongly points to the hit team(s) having consisted of anti-Castro/Mafia/CIA hired guns.

but is some ways true -- the Nazis were experts at facial recognition measuring, they used it to detect Jews in the German population during World War II -- so they used that skill to create "twins" whom were members of the anti-Castro mafia, to divert from the real killers, none of whom were Americans at all.

Oswald, was just a "patsy" because they (the assassin team) created teams of people that looked almost exactly alike.

It really was a well financed operation, most of the assassins; I'm sure quickly after they shot JFK, simply crossed the border, to Mexico.

I estimate, that around 100 former Nazis -- that had shot Kennedy crossed the border that day.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Where's the evidence that nazis actually did create doppelgangers of anti-castro/mafia/cia hitmen?
Without evidence, this could just as well be disinformation.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Oswald, and a racist state called Texas is the evidence
Up here in the North it was general knowledge among liberals of that time, that Texas was anti-liberal, anti-Kennedy, and racist. Groups like the KKK -- whom more then likely were also Texas Police officers, worked with the KKK; and they, in turn worked with the Nazis.

Oswald and Ruby's profiles were probably sent to the Germans -- from some Texas cops whom were in the KKK, to the Nazis before the operation.

I'm sure the powers-that-be in the CIA, and the politicians (Johnson) at the time time knew (after the fact), but not because they planned it, but simply because, it would at that time, be to painful for the country -- to face the reasons for JFK being shot.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. how does this fit with the matter of Richard Case Nagel?
I'm sure you are familiar with the book detailing him?
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. No
I'm sure you are familiar with the book detailing him?

Do you have any links?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. here's a link to the author's page
http://www.dickrussell.org/articles/richard.htm

Dick Russell authored the book "Richard Case Nagell: The Man Who Knew Too Much."

Here's the Publishers Weekly review of the book:

"Russell, a freelance journalist who has written for Time and the Village Voice , has spent 17 years on this mammoth study of one of the most mysterious figures on the fringes of the assassination: Richard Case Nagell, described as the man "hired to kill Oswald and prevent the assassination of JFK." With painstaking care, Russell sets out to reconstruct the strange life of Nagell, a former member of a super-secret army intelligence unit who was wounded in battle, the sole survivor of two air crashes, a contract agent for both the CIA and the KGB at different times, and a man whose life kept intersecting with Oswald's. Russell has met Nagell on a number of occasions, corresponded with him as recently as 1990 (when he was living in a motel in California) and wonderfully captures the intriguing eccentricities of his speech, with his deliberate, almost playful, allusiveness. Nagell seems to have been utilized by both the CIA and the KGB to keep tabs on Oswald (who himself probably also worked both sides of the street) and was ultimately prodded by the Russians to head Oswald away from his role in the Dallas plot (one of at least three to kill JFK in 1963, according to Russell). If Nagell failed to dissuade Oswald, he was to kill him. At that point Nagell, bewildered and unsure who was calling the shots, lost his nerve, warned the CIA and FBI of the impending disaster, then had himself arrested (he discharged a gun harmlessly in a Texas bank a month before the president was assassinated); he spent years in jail, while lawyers wrangled over his sanity. Nagell has not been heard from for the past two years, but Russell believes he is still alive, his silence bought by a generous military pension. The author is right in suggesting that a government investigation that subpoenaed Nagell as a witness (neither the Warren Commission nor the House inquiry did) would learn a great deal about an event that continues to intrigue and baffle the world. No praise can be too high for Russell's mastery of a massive quantity of detail, for his determination to seek out primary sources and for his refusal to over-dramatize. This is a model work of historical reconstruction that should, as Norman Mailer suggests in a blurb, open up many hitherto unperceived leads in the case

Nagell died a few years ago without divulging his knowledge. As the review says, he was apparently bought off and left alone. The book is a must read for JFK assassination inquirers.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Thanks--- I generally don't read spy books
Have you read the book? What is the main conspiracy theory, and some of the documentation he uses to prove his points?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I read the book about thirteen years ago or so...
...and so I can't give you any real detail on the 800+ pages. I did find it fascinating. If you google nagell's name you'll find out a lot of info and see that most researchers speak positively about this book.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Thanks -- I like some of the Village Voice articles I have read...
if he wrote for the Village Voice and Time, his writing abilities must be excellent, something greatly lacking in the JFK conspiracy world of writers, is a good writer.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. That's speculation, not evidence
Much of what you say is obviously true (rascism, KKK - though the Church Committee found that at some point 40% of the KKK was FBI infiltrators; why not mention that to?), but hardly relevant to the nazi dopppelganger theory.

"probably" and "i'm sure" doesn't cut it.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense; you're saying CIA etc knew *because* "it would at that time, be to painful for the country -- to face the reasons for JFK being shot"?

Do you think there wil ever be a time when it is not to painful for the nation to face the "reason" why JFK was shot? Are you implying there was some valid, morally justifiable "reason" for JFK's assassination?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. It is kind
to even refer to such nonsense as "speculation."
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. A question
It is kind to even refer to such nonsense as "speculation".

Can you prove my "theory" as being nonsense?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. that's not how it works -
It's your theory, so you have the burden of proof. It's not up to others to disprove your theory.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Wild. Goose. Chase.
That seems to be his MO.

IMHO***

;)
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Why so?
If you are critical of my ideas, at least say why.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Yes and No
Do you think there wil ever be a time when it is not to painful for the nation to face the "reason" why JFK was shot? Are you implying there was some valid, morally justifiable "reason" for JFK's assassination?

I do think it could be justifiable, and morally correct for them. But would I have have closed the case; and just assumed, it would end, no. I would of closed down the CIA, and of course fire those 40% FBI KKK in Texas you mentioned, as well as get all the files from the CIA, and move them to the US Army, then I would go hunting for all the Nazi's and Nazi sympathizers in the United States.

I know the ACLU would not agree with me on this -- but I think hate speech should be a crime, like it is in Germany.

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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Look at the bigger picture
Edited on Thu Mar-22-07 03:47 PM by PhilipShore
Do you think there wil ever be a time when it is not to painful for the nation to face the "reason" why JFK was shot? Are you implying there was some valid, morally justifiable "reason" for JFK's assassination?

Of course there is no sane reason for JFK to be shot; what I was attempting to convey, was that at the time when he was shot, the powers-that-be probably said that it would be to painful, to open up a investigation into the reasons of him being shot.

I can see "philosophically" how they can morally be justified -- in that point of view.

But then again, tactically it was a big mistake, because -- generally the Nazis when the War ended, simply moved to another country, and they never considered the war as ending with the Americans.

Those Nazis had and have hundreds of millions of dollars, perhaps even a billion or more in Nazi Gold, that was looted during World War II. So it it more then likely true, that they used a swat like team of Germans to cross the border from Mexico, or Canada, then kill the president -- and then cross over the border back into Mexico or Canada.

Very easy with "Texas" being so close to Mexico too.

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. I don't know...
There are so many theories out there, so much dis.misinformation that it is difficult to come to conclusions that appear to be abstract.

Looking at existing movies and stills of the scene at Dealy Plaza at the time, I see all kinds of things that appear to have escaped attention of many. The spot where a shot hit the curb; another shot hit the abutment of the overpass and the guy running away was hit with concrete that came off the concrete; the Motorcycle Cop that goes directly to the Grassy Knoll; the people on the ground looking to the fence; tthe missing frames of the Zapruder film.

When I put it all together, looking at it from the points of both assassins and protectors, I see many things that were just plain stupid or overlooked.

From the Assassin's POV the time to have shot Kennedy from the TSBD would have been as he was heading toward the building, a trailing shot is extraordinarily difficult and also denies on the opportunity to make corrections if a miss is encountered. There was a clear shot at the oncoming motorcade from the 6th floor window, and exposure was incredible to the target. Why take a chance on a trailing shot and missing?

Also from the assassins POV, you need a clear exit pattern, something sorely lacking on the 6th floor. Lots of boxes and the like to traverse and then the stairs to contend with, and buying a coke just make the Oswald scenario too implausible. There are a myriad of other reasons as well. Triangulation would have been the best bet to ensure a kill. The use of a caliber that would have the power was also a question that needed to be addressed. Hollow point, mercury filled, dum-dums and a whole host of other situations need to be considered. A shot from the 6.6 Carcano having that kind of accuracy is startling in itself, to inflict the damage to JFK's head that day is almost impossible, the right side of his head suffered to the point where a large piece of the skull is seen on the trunk. His head exploded as it were, and if that was just a lucky shot by a Marine Marksman, it was one damn lucky shot, almost guided by the hand of God.

Something other than a 6.6 Carcano round did that damage. Something like the proverbial "exploding bullet" or a dum-dum filled w/mercury or another material.

I suppose we could go on forever, but until more information forward, we're stuck w/speculation as to precisely what happened. This isn't like Lincoln in Ford's Theater, or like almost any other assassination, most people saw Booth and knew him, he took pride in his act, as most assassins of political figures do. Except for some pretty weak links, Oswald doesn't fit the mold.

Then there is the Tippet murder, pretty good cover-up going on there. Oswald was caught w/a revolver, but the Tippet scene had spent cartridges on the ground. Witnesses say that the murder happened quickly w/o any delays by the murder(s) to unload the spent cartridges. This makes it most likely that an semi-automatic pistol was used. I can't picture anyone shooting a cop in broad daylight, then unloading a revolver at the scene...this takes a bit of doing. There were also witnesses that were never called to testify that say they saw TWO men murder Tippet, each ran in a different direction. Why would Oswald stick around to expel the cartridges?

The mystery will continue, but there are some serious cover-up issues that need to be dealt with.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #41
50. Still no evidence for your doppelganger theory.
Much unlike the declassified govt docs and court records supporting the anti-Castro/mafia/CIA scenario.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination and Conspiracy theory: Doppelganger
The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Nazi%20Connection%20to%20JFK%20Assass.html">Link

__________________________________________

USATODAY/AP: Documents show CIA covered up Nazi war criminals during Cold War

6/6/2006

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-06-06-cia-nazis_x.htm">Link

___________________________________________

The CIA and Nazi War Criminals

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/CIANazis.html">Link


“I think that the CIA has defied the law, and in so doing has also trivialized the Holocaust, thumbed its nose at the survivors of the Holocaust and also at the Americans who gave their lives in the effort to defeat the Nazis in World War II.” - Former congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman

__________________________________________________
Conspiracy theory: Doppelganger of the three assassins


King-Kill 33: Masonic Symbolism in the Assassination of John F.Kennedy---
By James Shelby Downard with Michael A. Hoffman II

http://www.whale.to/b/kingkill_33.html">Link

I have stated that the three hoboes arrested at the time of the assassination in Dallas are at least as important symbolically as operationally and that they comprise the "Three Unworthy Craftsmen" of Masonry. This symbolism is at once a telling psychological blow against the victim and his comrades, a sign of frustrated inquiry-- the supposedly senseless nature of any quest into the authentic nature of the murderers--and a mirror or doppelganger of the three assassins who execute the actual murder.

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