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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 12:36 PM
Original message
Should we Hope for “Victory” in Iraq?
The answer to this question is of crucial importance because it would help guide us on what course we should take from here. More specifically, if the answer is NO, then it would behoove us to withdraw our military from Iraq as quickly as possible, rather than to continue to pursue a worthless “victory”. Yet, the good majority of U.S. politicians would answer the question with a resounding YES, lest they be perceived as unpatriotic or “soft on defense”.

But it’s actually a trick question, since few who advocate “victory” have defined what victory in Iraq means, and our national corporate news media has not found it necessary to discuss what the definition of victory is or should be. The prevailing assumption is simply that the question of what victory means is not even necessary to discuss because whatever it means, all patriotic Americans must want it.

But in fact, how victory is defined makes all the difference in the world, as that definition necessarily determines what course we should take from here. And doubtlessly much of the difference of opinion on what course we should take is due to different conceptions of what constitutes “victory”.


George Bush’s definition of “victory” in Iraq

George Bush talks about “victory” a great deal, but he has never explained what he means by victory. Not that it would matter if he had explained it, since nobody can remember the last time he told the truth about something important. Anyhow, I’m going to take a wild guess as to what “victory” in Iraq means to George Bush:

 Ensuring a permanent American military presence in Iraq, with the permanent military bases needed to support that presence
 Billions of dollars in profits for corporate friends of the Bush administration
 Control of Iraq’s oil supplies
 Establishing a legacy as a great “War President
 Strategically positioning ourselves to invade other Middle Eastern countries, and possibly China as well

And that definition of victory would not be complete without a list of what is NOT relevant to victory (and therefore eligible for sacrificing) for the Bush administration’s purposes:

 How many lives are lost
 The well being of the Iraqi people
 The recruitment of thousands of more terrorists for al Qaeda
International opinion of the United States
Bankrupting our nation

I’ve supplied links to support most of my above noted assertions about what the Bush administration’s definition of victory is and is not. Additional evidence can be found in “Rebuilding American Defenses”, written by the men of “Project for a New American Century”, which I’ve summarized here. (See section on “Other evidence that the United States under Bush and Cheney is a dangerous rogue nation”). And here is Wesley Clark’s explanation as to: 1) How he knew that Bush planned to take out Iraq, as early as a few days after the 9/11 attacks on our country.

About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said… “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.”… So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.”

and 2) What he knows about plans that the Bush administration has for other countries in the area:

So I came back to see him a few weeks later… I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from… the Secretary of Defense’s office … And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.”


The definition of victory for liberals

Anthony Arnove writes in “Iraq – The Logic of Withdrawal” that there are many well meaning people in this country who were vigorously against the Iraq War before Bush invaded Iraq, but now that we’re there feel that we need to stay until we’ve fulfilled our obligation to the Iraqi people. He writes:

Understandably, many opponents of the war now believe that the United States has an obligation to stay to “clean up the mess it has created.” We “broke it,” this line of argument suggests, and therefore we must “fix it”… Leading anti-sanctions and antiwar groups… have formally adopted positions in support of occupation.

For those people, “victory” has the following meanings:

 Minimizing the violence and death toll
 Helping Iraqis to rebuild their country’s infrastructure
 Helping Iraqis to create a self-sufficient government devoted to its people


How does the definition of “victory” determine our course of action from here?

The two different definitions of victory noted above are almost diametrically opposite to each other.

If George Bush’s definition of “victory” is used, then it is quite obvious that in order to “win” the war we must stay in Iraq indefinitely. And since the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraq civilians, the destruction of the Iraq infrastructure, our international reputation, our security against attacks from al Qaeda, and the bankrupting of our country are of no relevance to that definition, they have nothing to lose by continuing indefinitely to fight that war. In fact, the profits of Bush’s corporate friends, the construction of permanent American military bases and plans for the distribution of oil in Iraq all continue to make great progress even though by all standard measures we are losing the Iraq War.

On the other hand, if the other definition of victory in Iraq is used, the issue is much more complicated. Do we fulfill our obligation to the Iraqi people better by staying there and continuing to fight the war, or by leaving? Arnove writes on this question:

But even if we set aside the question of (Bush’s) motives, always subject to dispute, we must confront the bizarre logic of saying that the people who have devastated Iraq… who have failed at even the most basic responsibilities as an occupying power, who are the source of the instability in Iraq today, are the only ones who can protect Iraqis from hunger and anarchy. In no other area of our lives do we accept such logic, but when it comes to the crimes of empire, we are supposed to continually ignore history. The “doctrine of good intentions exculpates all crimes.” The reality, however, is that the U.S. occupation, rather than being a source of stability in Iraq, is the major source of instability and ongoing suffering.

Arnove also provides several other reasons for why we should withdraw our military from Iraq immediately. First he notes that the main excuses for invading Iraq (weapons of mass destruction that turned out not to exist and the desire to bring democracy to Iraq) turned out to be bogus. Then he points out that our war in Iraq, far from combating terrorism, is only fueling the terrorist threat against us. And our military presence is not preventing the spread of violence in Iraq, since it is the U.S. military forces in Iraq that are the main cause of the violence there. Nor are we helping to rebuild Iraq.


Why do politicians continually talk about “winning” the Iraq war, without ever explaining how they define “win”?

The reason why George Bush talks incessantly about the need to “win” the war, while never explaining to the American people what “winning” means or why it is important should be obvious. That is something that the Bush administration doesn’t even want people to think about. Once people begin to think about the purpose of the war they might reach the correct conclusion as to what the Bush administration’s purpose is. Those purposes are hardly likely to inspire enthusiasm in most people, much less patriotism.

It is more difficult to explain why many leading Democrats don’t talk about this. Perhaps it is because some of them believe that discussing the definition of victory implies that our country needs a valid reason to fight in a war – and that such questioning of the Bush administration’s motives will make them look “unpatriotic” in the eyes of many Americans. If this is what they think, I believe that they are underestimating most of the American people, and by refusing to discuss this crucially important issue they are not serving us well.

Every time I hear a politician rave on about the need for “victory”, without telling us what s/he means by victory, I just want to scream at them. I believe that such talk is a cynical attempt to appeal to the worst of us and the worst in all of us. The implication is that war is like a game, where winning is the only thing that is important. That kind of talk appeals to sentiments of virulent nationalism and American exceptionalism that suppose that our country has the God given right to destroy whatever it feels is necessary, including millions of human lives, in order to get whatever it wants.


So should we hope for “victory” in Iraq?

My short answer to that question is NO.

That answer is based upon what the Bush administration has made obvious through their actions is the definition of the “victory” that they pursue. And since the Bush administration is now in power, it is their definition of victory that we have to deal with. I have no desire whatsoever to see Bush’s corporate friends continue to reap billions of dollars of ill gotten profit. Nor do I feel it necessary for the United States to have control of Iraq’s oil supplies or permanent military bases in Iraq. And most of all, I shudder to think of the world wide destruction that will ensue if the Bush administration’s military gets enough of a foothold in Iraq to invade several other nations. These are the things that constitute victory in Iraq for our current leaders, and I reject every one of them. Those thoughts are not unpatriotic. On the contrary, they are putting the welfare of the American people and of the people of the world above the wealthy and powerful few who are benefiting from George Bush’s Iraq War.
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Lester222 Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great Writing.
I agree totally.

In addition I would add that it is time for the american people, in particular the working class, to realize that being part of "the most powerful nation on earth" does nothing whatsoever for them in their everyday life, except perhaps boost their ego, while their existance continues to be miserable. Even liberals, when critizising the war, hastetly add to their criticism that they think that america is the best country in the world and that they are voicing their criticism to prevent this great country from being ruined, lest, as you have said yourself, they be perceived as "unpatriotic".

Perhaps it is also time to ponder the definition of the word "patriotic", in order to see how illusive the whole concept becomes when trying to find a way how it relates to mundane daily routine in any other way then in form of trivial "us vs. them" thinking and an aritificial feeling of connectedness to an abstract idea of nation, which was once, in times where people were seeking an identity apart from being the subject of royalty, a sensible pratical philosophy, but has become an obsolete unneeded concept since the transition from industrial to information age.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you very much Lester
Yes, I agree that the whole concept of patriotism needs to be re-thought -- though I've never actually put it in those words, I think you're right about that. Hopefully, within the next century the term will either be obsolete or else take on a meeting that is more conducive to peace and harmony and progress in the world.

Here is something that I wrote about that a few months ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1298808

And welcome to DU :toast:
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep great writing
A simple explaination of victory in warfare is achieving your political goal and a simple explaination of what Bush/Cheney & Rumsfeld's political goal was: an Iraqi government friendly to US interests.

The irony now is that the presence of American occupying troops makes the goal of an Iraqi government friendly to US interests harder to achieve. Whatever slim hope of achieving victory was wrecked by the Abu Ghraib torture scandal. Victory is unobtainable, goals are unobtainable so the war is unwinable.

What's America's strategy for victory?

What is the insurgent/freedom fighter's strategy for victory?

Who's strategy is winning?



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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thank you -- My big fear is that the Bush administration will achieve THEIR "victory"
By that I mean that their corporate friends will continue to reap billions in profits (at the great expense of all Americans), we will establish a permanent military presence in Iraq, and they will go on to invade other nations, as planned, resulting in the deaths of millions, and perhaps even igniting WW III. I'm afraid that George Bush is crazy and evil enough to consider that scenario a "victory" for him.
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. After 911 the planned timetable by 2007 in the War of Neocon Aggression...
... was Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria & Somalia?????

I think *'s legacy was supposed to be a great commander in chief with lots of conquests notched on his belt. Iraq turning into a quagmire put a monkey wrench into the victory parades.

I think, riding the military industrial congressional complex gravy train was supposed to be the icing on the victory cake.

I don't know if Bush is stupid enough to attack Iran now, I think there's enough internal dissent in the US military who are pissed off about being conned into supporting invading Iraq to throw monkey wrenchs into plans to bomb Iran.

I hope so.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I don't think it's a question of being "stupid" enough to bomb Iran
I believe that Bush is more evil than stupid. Hey, if you don't give a damn about how many people die or receive terrible injuries, then that's one thing that you don't have to figure into the equation when you make your decision. In that case, the negatives are a whole lot less weighty.

I sure do hope you're right about the generals. May belief is that they'll almost have to perform a coup in order to stop him. I hope they're up to it -- it will take a lot of courage.
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Is * evil or is * a person with character flaws?
I know I project my shadow onto Bush. And I do it with a great deal of amusement or anger. ;) Sometimes I feel sorry for *.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung#The_Shadow

SOTU speech: Bush: Iran is supplying EFP's to Iraqi insurgents/freedom fighters. Next day General Pace contradicts Bush. Days later several generals & admirals threaten to resign if Iran is attacked. Yeah, there's internal dissent in the US military; * & the neocons have no credibilty/political capital left.

They can only pull a Gulf of Tonkin incident on Iran. In the long run that still won't save *'s bacon.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. I wish the leadership and rank and file in our party
would take the time to read thoughtful posts outside the box, like this one. Careful thinking, clear writing without hysteria or some crazed ideology.

If they had, they wouldn't have voted to start this mess to begin with.

:thumbsup:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-21-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thank you very much
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. On Congress's failure to end the war
From an editorial in The Nation:

The House and Senate have the authority to end the war quickly, efficiently, and honorably. Claims to the contrary by George W. Bush and his apologists are at odds with every intention of the authors of the Constitution. Which part of "Congress shall have the power to declare war... to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces... to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing power" does the White House fail to understand? Unfortunately, it may be the same part that cautious Congressional leaders have trouble comprehending.


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070402/editors2
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. K&R!!!
:kick:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Thank you Karenina -- Look here!
See what I mean -- Bush has actually won the war -- all he has to do is continue the U.S. military presence there:

U.S. and British oil companies will take over Iraq’s oil fields under a new Iraqi law written by the Bush Administration.

Western energy giants such as Exxon and Shell will control Iraqi oil exploration for the next 30 years while keeping 75% of the profits. Let freedom reign!

http://wonkette.com/politics/iraq/we-actually-won-the-iraq-war-hooray-227054.php
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. Look HERE!!! (a dated take on it)

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
9. I say we resurrect George Aiken, declare victory and get out. nt
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. Victory will mean in PNAC terms
continued occupation, loss of lives, and moving to the next phase of warfare in the region. So "victory" is different in the heads of the people for they have visions of "winning" and then leaving.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. True
If Bush Co stayed in power, we would be there indefinitely.

That makes me wonder what they're planning on doing if an anti-war Dem wins the 08 election, and a Democratic Congress is elected as well (which would almost certainly be the case if a Democratic President was elected).

This is a tyrannical regime, and I'm not at all certain that they're willing to give up power peacefully in 08:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060814/gillers
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think it might depend on the meaning of the word "Hope"
I agree with the logic that the current situation in Iraq is unlikely in the extreme to resolve itself into victory, given President Bush's goals and the situation on the ground. On the other hand if the Democratic version of victory were possible I would want to fight for it; we would owe it to the Iraqi people to fight for that. I'm not embarrassed or ashamed to say that; we screwed the Iraqi people but good and if we could fix the problem we should. My assessment is that we can't, therefore we should pull out and set aside a boatload of money to help rebuild Iraq after our departure.

On the other hand, I can see how a person could come to the conclusion that we could win in Iraq with the right strategy. Such a person would be wrong in my opinion, but their error is on of analysis not of morality. They aren't bad or corrupt people for wanting us to win (in the Democratic sense); just incorrect in my opinion.

Good piece.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Very well said regarding the Democratic version of victory being worth
fighting for. I also agree that we can't fix their problems, even though we caused them, so we should get out and help them from afar.

While a person who believed that a "liberal" version of victory was possible could justify continued military involvement, it is the Bush adminstration and its motives that makes this kind of victory impossble, moreso than the "facts" on the ground in Iraq.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yes, I agree with all of that
We do owe the Iraqis big time for what we've done to them and their country.

But one of my main points is that the Bush administration doesn't give a damn about making amends to the Iraqis. As Arnove says:

"... We must confront the bizarre logic of saying that the people who have devastated Iraq… who have failed at even the most basic responsibilities as an occupying power, who are the source of the instability in Iraq today, are the only ones who can protect Iraqis from hunger and anarchy."

Even if it might be possible to help them if some other presidential administration was in power, there is no chance whatever that they will get anything but death and destruction as long as Bush is in power. Add to that the fact that our presence there is a major -- probably THE major -- reason for the violence, and that is why it is so important that we leave.

But look, Bush has to a large extent "won" the war according to his original purpose:

http://wonkette.com/politics/iraq/we-actually-won-the-iraq-war-hooray-227054.php
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. The implication there though is that if Bush stalls for another two years
which seems likely unfortunately, than we get a new person in power how much does that change the equation; at that point point should President Edwards (or whoever you like) say we need to stay and finish helping the Iraqi people what should our response be?

That's why although I agree that president Bush is a key factor in our failure in Iraq, I don't think he's the only one; I suspect that even if he were impeached today and Al Gore put in power, we'd still have a heck of a time accomplishing anything by staying in Iraq.

Bryant
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. As you say, the problems (which the Bush administration is responsible for) are tremendous
The scope of the challenge is tremendous no matter who is in power.

But if someone with good intentions, such as Gore, Edwards, or Clark, to name just a few, were in power then I would be more ambivalent about how best to proceed. It may be that the hostility of the Iraqis to us is now so great that no change of administration would matter much as far as being able to reduce the violence. OR, it could be that with a new administration, as it became evident that we really did want to help them, the violence might decline considerably, and we could then work with the Iraqis to put their country back together again.

For example, when Wesley Clark was running for President in 04, his plan for the Iraq War had three components, two of which directly related to nation building and showing the Iraqis that we are now on their side -- "End the American Monopoly" and "Give the Iraqis a Rising Stake in our Success":
http://clark04.com/issues/iraqstrategy/

But the Bush administration has no intention of making any attempts to alleviate their misery -- and as long as he's in power, we are correctly seen by the Iraqis as an imperial power who just wants to take whatever we can get from them, regardless of the cost in lives and treasure. Thus, our presence there is just a magnet for more violence and counter-violence, and that's why Congress must take matters into their own hands to get us out.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. K&R.
It's amazing that absolutely NO ONE has ever called * on this BS. I'm very interested in hearing what his response would be if he were ever asked that question. Frankly, I'd be surprised if it were anything other than: "Why do you hate America?"
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Yes, EOTE, it is a sad commentary on the sorry state of our national corporate news media
They ought to be asking that question of Bush and Cheney continually, or until they get a decent answer, which of course they never will, but it is their job to keep asking it anyhow. If they would do that it would go a long ways towards getting us out of there IMO.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. From a soldier:
"The only victory is coming home alive."
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
18. "War is the continuation of politics by other means." Clausewitz
Bush, the Pentagon, conservatives, and a goodly portion of the American public still cling to the faulty notion that war is about "victory" parades, ticker-tape, monuments, and happy GI's getting off a boat kissing their wives. Or, that it's a nifty movie or video game in which the "good guys" shoot up the "bad guys" and triumph to the sound of glorious music. They believe that "body counts", "tonnage of bombs dropped", "boots on the ground", and all of the other military jargon describing the carnage will be the determinants of "victory". It's kind of like thinking "victory" in a marathon is won by wearing the most expensive shoes and when things go wrong by continually re-adjusting the shoe laces.

Bush and his minions still believe that if they "stay the course" and score more military victories, magic will occur and the population of Iraq will break out the flowers instead of the IEDs and the troops (except for the occupation force) can come home to the parades.

Many Democrats are still afraid to acknowledge the obvious fact that the "war" is lost. That military means of achieving "victory" have failed and that nothing can be done to redeem the situation.

The Iraqi resistance, however, does know that they have "won" (at least against the United States) and that their political situation will be ultimately be resolved by themselves and by their neighbors.

Just as in Vietnam, the United States lost the war because it forgot Clausewitz's axiom, that the military is merely a tool of politics, and a faulty one, not the decisive factor.















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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think it's more sinister than that
If you look at what I claim to be Bush's purpose in fighting the war (in the OP), he's already accomplished much of that. We have our permanent military bases there, we have access to their oil, Bush's friends are walking away with billions of dollars in profit, and he can call himself a "War President". He's also going to use the Iraq war as an excuse to attack Iran. He's accomplished a good deal of what he set out to do.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I disagree.
I think that Bush and the PNAC'rs really believed in a "great" strategy of "democratizing" the Middle East and South Asia. They really believed, and still do believe, that American style "democracy" is a sort of "one size fits all" ideal. They also believe that if we would just persist long enough, the people of the M.E. (and, the rest of the world), would bow down to their beautiful ideal. And, when that occurs, they would be judged by history as the great men they see themselves as.

In their own way they are Utopians. They firmly believe in "The American Dream", "The Free Market", "The Judeo-Christian Foundations", etc, etc, ad nauseum. The also believe that the rest of the people of the world (and, good many Americans), are blind to the wonders of America, or are enemies to it for some evil reason. Predictably enough, like most utopians, they consider themselves "realists". To them, the slogans are true. "We are winning in Iraq", "The Iraqis are better off", "The media just doesn't show all the good we have done", "It's just the birth pangs of the New Middle East", "They hate us for our freedoms", etc.

They are unable to face the reality of the disaster and the failure.

They have not, and will not, transform the Middle East into a region of Western style "democracies".

They have a very tenuous access to Iraqi oil.

The "permanent bases" are more like besieged outposts.

Bush sees himself as a "War President" but the world, the Iraqi Resistance, and more and more Americans see him as a rank, and inept, amateur in over his head as a war leader.

What I do agree with is that he and his minions may attack Iran out of desperation to try and redeem their shattered ideal. Which, despite their claims, will only add to the catastrophe.

That the war profiteers are making huge profits would be true in any war. If anything, they are the "realists" in this fiasco. They know how to make a buck.











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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes, our disagreement on this is very large
You seem to be saying basically that they have good intentions -- if I understand you correctly.

As far as I can see there is only one basis for believing that, and that is that they claim to have good intentions. To me, that's a very weak reason to believe that, since everyone claims to have good intentions, and these people rarely if ever tell the truth.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Hitler had "good intentions" and he wasn't lying about them.

So did Stalin, Pol Pot, and LBJ.

All I'm saying is that I think they are "true believers" in their delusions and are willing to go to any lengths to bring them to fruition. Including lying.

In your op you argued that Bush is succeeding in his aims. I contend that he's not. I blame the catastrophe on the absurd beliefs of the PNAC and Bush that they can instill "democracy" and build a "new Middle East". Something they have failed abysmally to do and, if fact, have made "democracy" of any sort, even a more remote possibility.

What do you ascribe their motivations to? I hold that the acquisition of power has made them greedy for more power and that they believe their own propaganda. The question isn't whether their intentions are really "good" or not. They believe they are and are ordained to implement them.

Bush and his PNAC advisers are like Hitler and his generals in the bunker. Still believing that a miracle would occur if they just held on and the non-existent armies they sent orders to would save the day.


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. One thing we agree on is that "Bush and his PNAC advisers are like Hitler and his generals..."
Where I think we disagree is about their intentions. You seem to imply that almost everyone has "good intentions", and you also say that the question of whether they have good intentions is not important.

I very strongly and fundamentally disagree with that. In fact, when I vote for someone to represent me I consider the person's intentions very strongly. For example, if Jimmy Carter ran for President today I would be highly predisposed to vote for him, even though he made some significant mistakes during his presidency. Since I believe his intentions are very good, I believe that he would work hard to avoid making the mistakes he made during his Presidency, and he would probably be successful in doing so.

I cannot say the same thing about Bush, Cheney, their close associates, Hitler, Stalin, etc. I believe that some people are evil. You call those people "true believers", whereas I call them people who claim to be true believers in order to hide their evil deeds or in order to put a spin on those evil deeds that make them seem actually virtuous. I think that that is the big difference between our views. It's a very fundamental difference in the way we view human motivations.
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