Let's get something straight folks: Detroit's problems are NOT a function of car type or car quality

[ddeclue]

In fact Detroit was SO successful selling big cars and trucks that it forced Nissan, Toyota and the German car companies to start making cars that Americans would actually buy because they were losing market share trying to sell their small fuel efficient cars in a land of cheap gasoline.

The most popular pickup truck of all time is the Ford F-150.

The best selling car in the world today is the Ford Focus.

The truth is that American cars with rear wheel drives and V-8 engines use very simple and tried and true technologies and they easily outlast their Japanese counterparts with front wheel drives and their C-V joints and transverse mounted 4 banger engines.

A V8 engine turning 1600 RPM at highway speeds is running under far less stress than a turbocharged 4 banger turning 2600 RPM at the same speed and will last far longer. In fact, my Camaro is a 1995 Z28 with the LT1 5.7L V8 and it gets 30mpg on the interstate and is still running at 188,000 miles.

The real problem with the auto industry is the same as with every other industry in America - the American consumer no longer has any money to spend because he has a crappy job now or no job now that his job has been offshored to China, his stock portfolio has gone into the toilet as the result first of the tech bubble bursting in 2001 and now the housing bubble bursting in 2008, his home value is plummeting and he can't borrow against it, and the banks simply aren't lending any more.

The real solution is to fix trade so that it is FAIR, not merely free.

The real solution is to strengthen unions so that businesses can't get away with all the crap they do today in offshoring our jobs.

The real solution is to re-regulate, break up the companies that are too big to fail into smaller companies that must hire more workers and compete against each other, and prevent any more mergers.

The real solution is investigate and regulate the bankers and stock brokers to the point where everybody finally trusts's one another enough to start loaning again.

Doug D.

[MichiganVote]

1. K&R

[leftofthedial]

2. the problems are:

1. Americans don't have jobs or job security. No one is buying *any* cars.

2. The market has shifted toward greener, smaller cars--a segement in which the American companies are not highly competitive.

3. The US car companies are too big and bloated, mismanaged, organized for maximum waste and not nimble enough to survive on their own in today's market.

4. American management is horrendous.

5. No company that treats its workers like the enemy will survive for long.

[ddeclue]

6. As long as gas stays low don't expect the shift to more efficient cars

to last because they tend to not last as long and have less room, and worse performance.

Doug D.

[leftofthedial]

15. you mean like my 1993 Corolla wagon

with 190,000 miles and still going strong?

[ddeclue]

55. No I mean like the two Mazda POS's that I owned in college

that went through CV joints and head gaskets and timing belts and clutches and had vacuum leaks and catalytic converter problems, etc., etc.

Neither of them made it to anything like this kind of mileage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Oh like the Accord we sold before we came back to the mainland

that had 180,000 miles on it...

My experience has been excellent with the imports, and our civic HYBRID we love it to bits...and sorry, but the tech on the Escape at the time was first gen, while the civic was third gen.

You had a bad experience, I get it.

Now the problems are partly what you listed...but everybody is forgetting the link between credit and lack of liquidity

This SHORT TERM problem for detroit has none to do with the consumers and all to do with a finance system that is out of balance like oh... 1932 and for the same reasons...

Yes. History is repeating itself.

[JuniperLea]

106. That's strange... maybe you got a lemon

My Mazda is six years old, has over 130k miles, and is still a champ on the road... still gets excellent gas mileage... still passes smog tests the first time... has no rust, has had no major repairs, nothing. Brakes and tires and oil changes, that's it.

But my Ford caught fire in my driveway four times and Ford refused to do anything.

Everyone has a different experience I guess. I have, however, loved every Chevy I've ever owned.

[ColbertWatcher]

23. And isn't it odd that right before Detroit asked for a bailout gas prices fell? n/t

[ddeclue]

58. Two theories:

Gas speculators ran out of money to speculate with

OR

They are trying to lull us to sleep under a Demcocratic gov't so that we won't investigate the oil companies or try to switch to electric/fuel cell cars that run on renewable fuel sources.

[Virginia Dare]

155. I suspect the Saudis will have us sitting in gas lines..

before all of this is over. They wanted to get us all in for oil again before they pulled the plug.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. WORLD demand has collapsed, that's why

[ColbertWatcher]

80. Of course it fell, but you have to admit the timing is curious. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. World demand started to crash before the election

it is coincidence... truly

This little economic crisis is not limited to the US...I personally wish it were, by the by

[ColbertWatcher]

88. Not just the demand for oil, but the timing of the bailouts.

And mortgage crash, etc.

It's just like the invasions.

The first one will slip through, but the following ones will be met with more skepticism.

[spindrifter]

7. Unfortunately, most large companies here treat their

employees like the enemy.

[economicgeography]

11. re:

4. American management is horrendous.

That's a tautology. Does bad management make the company bad? Or is it bad management because the company is doing poorly?

[leftofthedial]

13. bad management

short-term thinking

anti-innovation

systematically anti-worker

absurd ratios of executive pay to worker pay

absolute willingness to externalize *any* cost possible

[SharonAnn]

139. Bad management makes a company bad. I've lived through good and bad management.

And I learned the difference. Bad management (most management these days) is interested in maximising their bonuses. That's it. They only care about their company to the estent that they can manipulate it to maximize their bonuses.

It really is that simple.

[lastliberalintexas]

12. Your #3 is wrong

GM and Ford at least are actually profitable entities when you consider their worldwide operations. They very well might want Congress to refuse the bailout, because then they can file for bankruptcy and get away from the unions and the retiree issues they face (a la the airlines). Many have said for years now that is their plan, I can't imagine it's changed any if true.

[Festivito]

54. So what, No, No, No, No.

1. No jobs is a problem from the banking system, not a point about bad cars.

2. We do compete and are MUCH MUCH better with larger cars and trucks than they are. THAT'S A GOOD THING. On small cars we have lines of hybrids, small cars, and quality of small cars tests better than Japan or anyone else now. Just because some insignificant car line(by number of cars sold) from ten and twenty years ago was not matched 110% from back then means nothing about now. Besides, those cars were more expensive, much more expensive to fix, tended to be driven in warmer climates, and only warmer climates(Falsely ups averages), and because of the higher investment, owners changed oil regularly unlike what they do with domestic cars.

3. Do you know that Japan's car companies are not bloated? I don't think so. Besides, just because they have not had the time to bloat doesn't mean they are better than us today. You think there is some industry that makes no bone-headed moves. I don't think so. Maximum waste? Uh uh. I've seen the belt tightening. If they waste, it's in stressing performance reviews and acting on them. And, if today's market is that no one has money/secure jobs enough to buy cars, yes, that's hard. But, Ford is okay. GM's problem is bad banking. You can't sell a Prius nor a Hybrid Escape nor an Explorer in this moneyless economy. The staggering theft Republicans gave us is not a reason to show that our companies cannot turn on a dime faster than Japan which has no car line to turn on a dime toward. Their big cars stink: bad quality, bad efficiency, worse cost to fix.

4. If all America is bad, don't just lash the auto companies! But, 3 says its not as bad as people WHO LIKE COMPLAINING make it look.

5. They work well together. It is not constantly an enemy situation. It is when it needs to be. Anyone who asks for a raise or increase of vacation time or some other benefit is an enemy during negotiations. This is everyone, not a point against auto companies. Unless you've been stupid enough to never ask for a raise.

You're full of it. I think you have a different agenda that you hide from us.

[ddeclue]

56. WELL SAID! n/t

[leftofthedial]

150. what possible agenda could I have?

1. We agree. What's your point. We could give the big 3 $100 trillion and my unemployed ass still couldn't buy a car. Neither could the twelve other people I found just in my immediate circle of friends and family and coworkers who need a car but can't afford one.

2. Sounds like you memorized some talking points. I don't care who is better at building monster trucks. Those are going away--and soon. Other than that, I don't know what you're on about here. If you are claiming that American cars are more fuel efficient or as fuel efficient as other countries, I think you are wrong.

3. This seems like rambling, frankly goofy assertions.

4. Huh?

5. Given the virtual death of the unions, your point here is absurd.


My agenda is that we need more and stronger unions.

But, a bailout/loan won't suddenly enable Americans to buy cars.

[Fumesucker]

3. You are wrong about longevity of large engines vs smaller engines..

Our main vehicle right now is a 94 Altima with 240k miles on it, it still runs perfectly and gets an actual 34 mpg at 70 mph cruise on the interstate.

I've put over 100k miles on a four cylinder motorcycle before with no problems and that was 600cc engine that redlined at 10,000 rpm..

Your other points are valid though..

[ddeclue]

24. No I'm not wrong...

If I don't get at least 300,000 miles out of the LT1 in my Camaro before an overhaul I'll be very disappointed.

I should let you know that I'm a degreed aerospace engineer and a good mechanic.

I've spent more time and money fixing crappy foreign four banger engine problems than I've ever had to do with V8's. The basic reason is obvious - the V8's are simpler, fewer gimmicks to break and are simply lower stressed running most of the time at 20% of their rated HP vs. a 4 banger running at 40 to 50% of it's rated HP.

Higher RPM's of 4 bangers also means more vibration which is one of the chief breakers of things in cars.

Also transverse mounted engines mean CV joints which inevitably wear out and require replacements - I've done these on several cars and it is a pain in the ass and expensive.

If you have tranny problems in a FWD foreign car that also means you've got to lift the engine to get to the problem. With a RWD car you drop the tranny out the bottom and can leave the engine alone.

Doug D.

[Fumesucker]

41. I'll be surprised if I don't get 300k out of our Altima..

Proper engineering takes into account the stresses on the engine parts from rpm.

Big engines have more reciprocating mass as well as a longer stroke, so the stresses involved are actually not all that different.

Some front wheel drive cars drop the tranny from underneath, I've done it on several.

And if you keep the CV joint boots maintained properly CV joints will last the life of the vehicle, it's when the boots rip and let in abrasive debris that the joints go bad. There are replacement kits for most boots that do not involve pulling the axle out.

I've replaced more U joints than I have CV joints and I've been building hot rods and working on cars since 1965. My first hot rod I built a strong engine and then proceeded to break and upgrade every part in the driveline from the clutch to the rear lug nuts one at a time.

Besides, if you have independent suspension, you're going to need some kind of joint in the axle shafts whether it is rear wheel or front wheel drive.

[ddeclue]

48. Actually ...

big engines don't necessarily have a bigger stroke..

they have twice as many cylinders and cylinder diameter is larger as well.

As for rotational inertia, it is proportional to the square of the rotational velocity but linearly proportional to the mass so faster all in all is worse than heavier.

The CV joints inevitably wear out and boots wear out and the easiest solution is replacing the half axle.

The point is that replacing a U joint is so much simpler, cheaper and easier than a CV joint and I've personally ever seen on V8 car need to replace one in my life - on my father's Caprice Estate station wagon.

By and large you DO have to pull the engine to get to a transmision on a FWD car. You are arguing the exception.

As for proper engineering, the dirty little secret of these 4 banger engines is that they ARE modern designs, the basic designs of these V8's were created lng before computer aided design came along so they were well OVER designed.

The problem with modern designs is that they've been structurally analyzed and simulated with computers and they are designed to just meet a certain specific set of criteria with some safety margin. Ultimately they don't have the over design factor of these older V8 designs and they WILL wear out more quickly and won't take the kind of abuse that the V8's will because the designers of the 4 bangers didn't include it in their analysis.

Doug D.

[Fumesucker]

63. I had over 100k miles on a 600 cc four cylinder motorycle engine when I sold it..

10,000 rpm red line and it was still running fine when I got rid of it.

And I'm not gentle with motorcycles, they get twisted pretty hard on a regular basis.

Four bangers tend to be quite oversquare with a short stroke and big bore, V8's not so much.

I've never once had a CV joint wear out unless the boot was damaged.

Due to financial difficulties (thanks to medical bills not covered by insurance) we have been driving very high mileage cars for the last fifteen years, I haven't bought a car with less than 100k in that long.. I routinely get 250k plus and we've only had one V6, the rest were four bangers.

[ddeclue]

66. Motorcycle = aircooled engine??

These engines are substantially different in their design than typical 2 liter 4 bange auto engines.

Doug D.

[Fumesucker]

82. In this case it was air cooled..

Water cooled engines generally last longer than air cooled because the operating temperature is regulated much more closely.

The real key to longevity is proper maintenance, IMO.. Keep the fluids changed and topped up and most cars will easily exceed 200k miles.

[ddeclue]

87. I would tend to disagree because

water cooled engines also have more points of failure - water pumps, thermostats, electric cooling fans, water leaks, overheating, head gasket failures, etc.

Air cooled engines are much more simple and reliable which is why they are used in general aviation aircraft.

They are also lighter and easier to repair - you can pull the jugs on an aircraft enginer (or VW bug engine) in very little time and replace them and they don't weigh hardly anything compared to water cooled engines.

IMO: The actual correct statement would be to say that water cooled engines fail more gracefully than air cooled engines.

Doug D.

[Fumesucker]

121. Even motocross bikes have been water cooled for two decades.

And every gram counts in motocross where it's all about power to weight ratio.

The best "air cooled" engines I've seen in motorcycles are also cooled by oil to a big extent, large oil reservoir and large oil cooler, much larger than on an equivalent water cooled bike. Suzuki took this technique about to the limit with its last generation of air cooled street bikes, the last of which was the 1990 GSX-R 750, after that they switched to water cooling. Note the "radiator" on this Gixxer, it's actually an oil cooler.



Air cooled engines must have larger tolerances for things like piston expansion, aircraft engines aren't really the same as air cooled auto or motorcycle engines because they have a propeller in front moving cooling air over the fins all the time, plus the great majority of their operating life is spent at much higher speeds than any car or motorcycle which further increases cooling airflow over the engine.

Top fuel drag racers are "water cooled" and they rebuild those on every five second run down the strip.

I would say that water cooled engines are more prone to catastrophic failure when something like a water pump or radiator breaks, while air cooled engines are more prone to just wearing out from excessive constant temperature fluctuations under normal operating conditions.

[EOTE]

157. Also take into account OHC vs. OHV.

I think the longevity that LTx and LSx series GM V8s is greatly due to their OHV construction. It seems to me that overhead cam engines were created for two reasons. The first was to allow smaller displacement(not lighter, mind you, but smaller displaement) engines to perform better at higher RPMs and the second was so that manufacturers had greater control over intake and exhaust timing. As GM has proven with their latest OHV engines (which seem to all be V8s, but I'd love to see them make a V6 or two from their LS line like they did with the old 262 which was a 350 with two cylinders lopped off), that you can achieve everything desirable in an engine (torque, horsepower, smoothness, quietness and fuel economy) without resorting to a more complicated overhead cam design. Then you add in things like cam in cam technology which allows for a degree of variable valve timing to be integrated into OHV engines, and you've got an engine with great power, smoothness and fuel economy. I really believe that GM has created damn close to the perfect engine with the LSx series V8s. I hope in the near future, we see more simply RWD, V8 powered sedans and coupes that are easy to work on and provide great value. We're seeing that to an extent with the new Pontiac G8 and Chevy Camaro, but I'd like to see more FWD cars phased out for RWD replacements. I've never understood why all economy cars are FWD, I would have thought that at least one car manufacturer would have a cheap, small RWD 4 cylinder that sold for the same as the Cobalts, Civics, Corollas and Focuses yet was a lot more fun.

Your points about FWD cars are very valid, but the problems with FWD cars are not reserved solely for imports. I think a large portion of the decline in quality of domestics during the 80s and the early 90s was due to the big 3 switching the great bulk of their vehicles to FWD and lacking the experience that the foreign competition had with them. I think if they had focused on making their existing RWD vehicles more fuel efficient rather than creating entirely new FWD compacts, they'd be in better shape now. All these years later and it still seems that old school OHV technology and RWD is still the way to go. RWD is not only cheaper and easier to produce, but RWD cars are so much more fun to drive than their FWD counterparts.

[Edweird]

39. He's correct. To extrapolate, check out '18 wheelers'. Their engines

last for half a million miles. 200,000 miles is just broken in.

[Fumesucker]

46. Commercial vehicles are designed to a different standard than passenger cars..

18 wheelers in particular are designed for high mileage because they are driven constantly, far more than almost any private passenger car. Hell, an 18 wheeler can take over five gallons of oil for a 400 hp engine.. A 400 hp engine in a car usually has five quarts.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/08/vw_diesel_lasts.php

Syl Schmid has been driving his VW Jetta for 21 years, and has managed to put 562,000 miles on the clock. That's a rather high average of 26,762 miles a year, but Schmid says he reguarly got over 50 mpg. Keeping a car in good condition like this, and getting this sort of usage is probably the greenest sort of motoring you can do. The energy cost of producing the car has been spread over so many miles that it represents a very low footprint per mile.

The car is all the more impressive when you consider that the drivetrain and muffler are both original, so it's not a mountain of spare parts that has kept this car going - it's just been well made and well looked after. However, VW have ruined this good story by offering him a Touareg V10 TDI to drive for six-months - Schmid's days of green motoring are over. Over for six months that is, which seems a little tight of VW. Perhaps a more appropriate gift would have been a complete restoration and overhaul of the VW, ensuring that it can get a few hundred thousand more miles - it would be even better PR for the company if it can reach a million miles. ::Auto Blog Green

[economicgeography]

4. re:Let's get something straight folks: Detroit's problems are NOT a function of car type or car qual

The real solution is to re-regulate, break up the companies that are too big to fail into smaller companies that must hire more workers and compete against each other, and prevent any more mergers.

Is that you John Kenneth Galbraith? I thought you were dead! I have your book on my desk. I don't think it's very good. Neither do most economists.

The problem is ultimately that GM et. al need a loan and can't get one. That's what it comes down to. It may sound like I'm simplifying it to the point of absurdity, but we can't forget causality here.

[ddeclue]

62. Nope.. it's just common sense:

Companies which are monopolies don't have to innovate or compete or satisfy anyone.

Banks which have screwed with their banks to the point that they are so paranoid that they don't even trust each other to make overnight loans will never make Joe Six Pack a car loan.

The problem is psychological: fear, paranoia that has resulted from a lack of transparency.

The only solution is re-regulate them to force transparency in accounting so that everybody can start to trust one another again. Until there is trust the banks will simply hoard their cash and not loan it.

Common sense says: Don't put all your eggs into one basket.

If the "basket" is too big to fail...

Why should we allow these banking monopolies to hold us hostage and demand 700B from us on the threat that they will drag down the whole economy? Had we not allowed all the bank merger mania and deregulation that has occurred in the last 2 decades we would NOT today be in this mess and any bank that failed would be too small to bring down the whole system.

[economicgeography]

73. re:

But they do have competition! Just because its not based in American doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If they don't wanna satisfy customers, Toyota certainly will.

If you guys know how to run a company so much better than the shareholders of GM, then why don't you buy stock? The price sure is low. The company is not some national trust or something like that. And the labor is fungible. The demand for autos doesn't change whether or not GM is still around. I figure some other firm will pick up some of the assets (labor and capital) and meet said demand (although for sure a declining demand) profitably.

[ddeclue]

93. Who has the money required to control GM?

By the way, I'm NOT saying that GM was doing a bad job.. as the OP I was sticking up for the Big Three,

And I refuse to accept your premise that GM isn't satisfying it's cusotmers. It is. The real problem as I said has NOTHING to do with the quality or type of car produced, it is a global economic issue. Toyota will experience exactly the same problems because no one can by a Toyota now either.

And "the labor is fungible" is a REPUBLICAN talking point. We should be demanding that if you want to sell it in the USA you must meet US Labor, safety, and environmental standards WHEREVER you built it -i.e. you can't build it in China using slave labor, child labor and paying people 50 cents a day and keeping them in poverty because you REFUSE to allow them collectively bargain.

The auto industry isn't "a national trust" but it IS a national defense asset.

As for another company stepping into GM's shoes that simply won't happen, all that will happen is the same thing that has already happened to the US textile, electronics and other manufacturing - it will disappear and more of our wealth will go over to China to buy cars that used to be made in America.

:eyes:

[economicgeography]

118. re:

And I refuse to accept your premise that GM isn't satisfying it's cusotmers. It is. The real problem as I said has NOTHING to do with the quality or type of car produced, it is a global economic issue. Toyota will experience exactly the same problems because no one can by a Toyota now either.

Ok, so maybe they're pleasing the customers, but then the profit margins aren't acceptable to the investors. And it's the investors who own the company, so who cares what we think? Why should we encourage overproduction of cars then if there's a worldwide slowdown?

And "the labor is fungible" is a REPUBLICAN talking point. We should be demanding that if you want to sell it in the USA you must meet US Labor, safety, and environmental standards WHEREVER you built it -i.e. you can't build it in China using slave labor, child labor and paying people 50 cents a day and keeping them in poverty because you REFUSE to allow them collectively bargain.

Whether it's a GOP talking point or not, the labor is still pretty fungible. That's the whole reason why outsourcing is possible. I'm not saying its good or bad, but it is what it is.

Tarriffs and barriers just lead to trade wars. Any gains made by labor due to those would be offset by the higher price of goods anyway.


The auto industry isn't "a national trust" but it IS a national defense asset.

I tell ya what. If we ever really had a war where we needed the mass production of automobiles like we did in WWII, then I would agree to nationalize Toyota assets for production. That said, don't you guys dislike the military-industrial complex anyways? I'm not asking this rhetorically, but what modern warfare machines do the Big Three make? They might make some stuff, I don't know.

As for another company stepping into GM's shoes that simply won't happen, all that will happen is the same thing that has already happened to the US textile, electronics and other manufacturing - it will disappear and more of our wealth will go over to China to buy cars that used to be made in America.




Then why did Toyota pop in the US in the first place?

[sendero]

137. Yeah...

... the management of GM is sure to take heed of someone who owns 1000 shares of stock.

Please.

[economicgeography]

143. If you know so well how to run them

Then put up the money. I'm sure if you can guarantee a return someone would lend you the money if you didn't have it.

[sendero]

151. I never said..

... I knew "how to run them", but a monkey could do better than the current bunch is doing.

I'm for bailing out the industry, but in my bailout plan ALL top level execs would be cut loose, every last one.

[lastliberalintexas]

5. I thought the Chevy Silverado/GMC was the best selling truck?

Good post, by the way.


It would also be nice if we were as free to sell our products in Japan as Toyota is here.

[ddeclue]

10. Perhaps Chevy Silverado is the current sales leader

but over the brand lifetime the F150 is a legend... It's like talking about Jeep CJ or DC3 airplanes or something.

Doug D.

[lastliberalintexas]

17. Chevy/GMC created the truck

And theirs has been around much longer than than the F150. Heck, the Chevy/GMC truck was introduced in 1925 or so. Maybe they are considered 2 different brands and thus their sales are lower lifetime?

A quick google only tells me that the Ford F150 set the record for yearly sales, but I'm talking lifetime too. :shrug:

Really not that big of a deal, just interested in the trivia of it. :)

[Art_from_Ark]

100. You really think American cars could sell well here in Japan?

Japan has
1) lots of narrow, winding roads (including some one-lane roads that pass for two-laners)
2) a rigorous inspection system that requires important parts to be replaced as soon they are detected in the 2-year inspections (meaning that American car parts will cost out the ying-yang)
3) a heavy tax on heavy cars and cars with engine displacement over 1 liter, which increases again for cars with engines with at least 2 liter displacement
4) steering wheels on the right-hand side of the vehicle (driving on the left side of the road)
5) a well-developed, reliable system for taking care of domestic makes, but a poorly developed system for handling most foreign cars (except for the high-end brands like Mercedes-Benz and BMW). That means, good luck finding American car parts if you have a breakdown outside of the major urban centers.
6) 60 million vehicles already on the road in a country with a popluation of 126 million and a land area about the size of California
7) expensive gasoline that is usually double the American price.

Once in a while, I will encounter an American car here, but, with the exception of a few Fords I've seen, the damn things tend to take up a lane and a half on the roads near my house, and it's really annoying having to slow down and move as far to the left side of the road as I can in order to pass one coming from the other direction.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Yup! It's like musical chairs unless they sell 17 million cars...

to cover the aggregate undustry costs. And it looks like they're selling only 11 million this year.

The share of the pie hasn't shrunk drastically-- the pie has shrunk.

(I don't entirely agree with your solutions, though)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Isn't the F-150 a piece of shit, despite its sales?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/057-Top-Gear-Ford-F150_183157.htm

"In fact, my Camaro is a 1995 Z28 with the LT1 5.7L V8 and it gets 30mpg on the interstate and is still running at 188,000 miles."

4th generation camaros are infamous for their shitty engine reliability.

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Reliability.aspx?year=1995&make=Chevrolet&model=Camaro

"The real solution is investigate and regulate the bankers and stock brokers to the point where everybody finally trusts's one another enough to start loaning again."

Unfortunately, American car companies have been in deep shit for many years now, well before the current banking crises.

[ddeclue]

14. Sorry but you are lumping a lot of different engines together when you talk about 4G Camaros

the car was sold with 4 bangers, 6 bangers and several V8's.

The LT1 engine is legendary for it's reliability and was originally used in the Corvette before being sent over to the Camaros when they changed up Corvette engines.

I'll be happy to pick you up from the dump when we haul your Toyota over to be crushed in my 1995 Z28 Camaro with it's LT1 engine!

:rofl:

As for the F150, your cheap gratuituous shot does not a rebuttal make. The sales speak for themselves. No Toyota truck even comes close.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Sure, Ford can sell a lot of poorly built trucks. But brand loyalty won't last long if you keep buying American and it keeps falling apart. That's why the American companies lost so much business to Japanese cars after the 70s and 80s.

[ddeclue]

25. You are just a basher and are talking out your ***

You have no basis to claim the Ford trucks are falling apart.

Ford consumers clearly disagree with you since they keep buying Ford trucks. That's a pretty concrete metric to believe as opposed to your talking out of your hat.

Doug D.

[annabanana]

78. never mind

that guy never met a corporation he didn't like

[JuniperLea]

117. Except all those recalls...

And all those Ford trucks and SUVs that caught fire, etc.

[bertman]

16. Recommend, and mostly agree. But I don't understand how stronger unions are going

to keep corporations from offshoring jobs. Tariffs, tax penalties for offshoring, tax incentives for keeping jobs here, all seem to be better ways. But I'm waiting to be enlightened about how the unions will stop offshoring.

I'm in favor of strong unions, just foggy on your point.

My Tahoe is a great vehicle with 125,000 on it. I know people who have them with 200,000. I also know folks with Toyotas with 200,000.

Good post.

[ddeclue]

27. It's real simple:

Strong Unions will keep the politicians in line and keep them from screwing us over for fear of a union working to defeat them in 2 years. Right now the pols fear lobbyists and corporate PACs not unions.

[bertman]

140. Okay, ddeclue, I see some validity in that. But in the meantime, let's work on the other

efforts I mentioned, too.

[Ron Green]

18. Not only is the day of the Detroit V-8 over, the century of the automobile is over as well.

A hundred years is a good long run for a sword whose bad edge has overtaken its good one in recent decades. The truth is that private conveyances burning fossil fuels are not sustainable, and the sooner we design for a future of public transportation, human-powered vehicles and localization of agriculture, the more likely we'll be to HAVE a future.

Encouraging the "Big 3" to continue making automobiles rather than building trains and infrastructure is like giving inmates garden tools to keep under their blankets.

[ddeclue]

34. You are wrong - Americans will give you their guns before they give your their cars.

It's about FREEDOM. YOU decide when and where you are going and you don't have to wait on anyone else.

The V8 will be around for a while longer because it WORKS but the ultimate solution is not that we are going to become Europe 2.0 - it simply won't work here without totally gutting and starting over on our infrastructure - the solution will be electric cars and fuel cell powered cars.

Another reason why Americans won't go for this is that they don't want to live packed in close together and enjoy their suburban lifestyles.

You are going to have to learn that politics is the art of giving out CARROTS not beating people with sticks. Political will is a powerful thing and trying to shove mass transit down people's throats and take away their cars will get you LESS mass transit as you cause Democrats to lose and Republicans to replace them.

Doug D.

[Ron Green]

84. Yeah, well, when I read your comments about "roller skates" on some other threads

I realized you and I are 'way too far apart on this issue to have a reasonable conversation. Just as I had my days with "hot rods" in the '60s, this country has had its days with ideas about "freedom" and the "suburban lifestyle."

It's good to know when something is dead, so you can start to get it buried.

[ddeclue]

89. Well Ron you're not Presidente por Vida

and you don't get to make unilateral decisions about how this country will be run - the voters do.

I love to see DU posts where people say crazy things like lets raise the gas tax or force people to take the bus, etc. These are hilarious because they are oblivious to basic political reality: the voters don't want to take the bus and they don't want expensive gas.

If you try to force these things down their throats they will fire you and hire a Republican and THEN where will you be?

As I said you need to use CARROTS not sticks to persuade people to change.


Doug D.

[Mike 03]

19. If you say. I hope you are right. I wonder why the rest of the world just can't understand

that you are correct and these cars are the most fucking amazing cars ever.

[ddeclue]

35. they DO understand it.

Ford does very well in Europe.

The only reason we can't sell our cars in Asia is that the gov'ts there make it impossible to protect their industries.

Doug D.

[LisaM]

21. Bump

:kick:

[maxsolomon]

22. car DESIGN, however...

i'm an architect. why do i drive a 16 year old Saab 900S instead of an american product? because it is a classic design, and american cars are BORING & UGLY.

and no, the PT cruiser is not good looking. likewise the steroidal cadillacs & dodge chargers.

the "big 3", like so much of american corporate culture, strangle the art out of everything they make.

[skepticscott]

28. And who can forget

the Corsica, the Lumina, and the Eurosport? The abominations go back a long ways.

[ddeclue]

32. There are plenty of ugly boring foreign cars...

most Japanese cars look like soap bars. Volvos and Saabs??? Ugly to me.

[ddeclue]

31. Well that's your taste....

I LOVE the looks of my Dodge Charger R/T and I love the looks of my Camaro Z28. I find Volvos and Saabs kind of boring. I get a lot of stares and thumbs up for both cars so somebody must like them. The Dodge Charger is showing up everywhere these days that I go so it must be very popular.

Mine is black has the alloy wheels and the rear spoiler and I really love this car.

The only foreign cars I really think are attractive are the high end exotics (Ferrari, Lambourghini, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc.)

Doug D.

[maxsolomon]

57. i wouldn't be caught dead in either of those cars.

as i said, steroidal. the principals in our office - none of them drive an american car. old saabs, porsches, bmws, mercedes, vws, minis, even a BMW 3.0CS. yumm:



current american car design focuses on being
a. nondescript & nonoffensive,
or
b. what i call "nascar" design: overtly (and overly) masculine, pumped-up, emulating hot-rod aesthetics. i.e. charger, mustang.

de gustibus non disputatem.

[ddeclue]

65. Ugly boring beemer...

yech...

As a guy and I take offense at your "sterioidal" slam.. if you want a puny boring euro car that's your choice. As I said, I LIKE the looks of my car and apparently so do a lot of American carbuyers as well.

These cars are very popular and sell a lot more than your snobby exotic overpriced Euro-cars.

[lastliberalintexas]

37. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

I personally hate the new Accord, though I think the Fusion, Malibu and Camry are nice.


But I also only see my old Ford as a mode of transportation, not any kind of status symbol or statement to be made, so it really doesn't matter that much to me how it looks.

[dugaresa]

144. I will say that when Ford bought Volvo and Jaguar

and then the Jag morphed into a Taurus...and then I saw a Volvo that looked like an Escort...I nearly died..

Some cars folks buy because they have a certain "look" and messing with that look can mess up the profits..

[Stinky The Clown]

26. We are SO on the same page!!!!

[Gregorian]

29. That's an interesting set of points you make.

I have a different take on the same phenomenon. But I'll admit you have answered something that has distressed me. And that is watching the Datsuns and Toyotas of the world slowly creep up the size of their vehicles. But look at Europe.

Due to a combination of things, cars in America have been larger and less efficient than those in Europe. Now that isn't completely true. But I would wager that the average car in London is smaller and more efficient than those in Los Angeles.

So I don't buy the argument that the problem isn't the cars. I think it is. And of course your argument is also correct. People don't have the cash. But we also took that wrong path when we didn't go the direction of efficient and smaller vehicles. Just ask the melting poles. I am saying that the larger cars is an american phenomenon.

Darn, I forgot my other point.

Something else is bothering me. But since we can't take the workerrs out of this discussion, it's kind of moot. But that is, why throw money at these companies that didn't produce innovation? There are a number of electric car companies, like Tesla, that are ready to roll. Why not dump huge wads of cash in their laps too?

[ddeclue]

42. I don't have any problems with efficient cars and electric cars

and would appreciate the engineering development work myself..

:)

The reason cars are so much smaller in Europe (as someone who lived there for 8 years in the 70's and who just visited England a few weeks ago is that they tax the crap out of their gasoline.

Gas over there was over $6.50 gallon when I was England when it was $3.00/gallon here.

And yes we need to reduce CO2 but I'm strictly talking economics not environmental consequences at the moment.

The real technical innovations will be pure electrics and methanol fuel cell electrics.

[depakid]

30. Management at the big 3 caused many of their own problems

and spent BILLIONS creating wasteful demand and reinforcing dysfunctional habits in order to maximize profits in the short term- at the expense of longer term sustainability.

They opposed regulations (like CAFE standards) that they (and their customrs and the country at large) would have benefitted from, while lobbying for subsidies like the SUV tax loophole that further insulated them (and their customers) from the reality of rising gas prices down the line.

Both of these were common themes which were also central to the financial industries' collapse.

Obviously, the recession has made matters worse- for all automakers, foreign and domestic, but for various reasons (including both the US public policies you mention AND internal management decisions) the big 3 are on the brink, whereas others are better situated to ride out the downturn.

That doesn't mean we ought not to rescue them- but the reality is that "business as usual" has to change (as it did to some extent with Chrysler in the early 1980's) or else, they'll be back asking for more money to keep them afloat next year- and the following year.

[Johonny]

50. I agree with you

They clearly focused on maximizing a short term trend in the market and did rather poor long term planning for the future market and the future state of the economy. This is frankly why I feel these companies should be broken apart into smaller companies. If GMs truck division was separate from the economy class division I bet there would have been drastically different long term planning involved. Either way clearly reading DU there is a major split in the idea of the quality of American cars based on people that love cars and people that see their car as something that transports them around.

[depakid]

69. That's an interesting idea

People who actually need trucks and/or SUV's may well have different interests at their core than the typical family who needs personal transportation.

[bobbolink]

33. skip it... it's not worth it.

[ddeclue]

49. Run and hide when you don't have a good response. That's what he really means. n/t

[MadHound]

36. I would have to disagree

For the past thirty, thirty five years the record on longevity and reliability has belonged to the imports. Report after report, year after year has always put the imports at the top of the list in these regards. It's only within the past few years that Detroit has begun to catch up and surpass the imports in this regard.

Yes, they were good at making big honking cars, no doubt. The problem is that's all they seemed to do for a long while. While many people were looking for small, efficient, reliable, economical cars, Detroit just continued to crank out behemoths.

A responsive auto industry, one that was looking to sell to all sectors of the market, would have made a broad spectrum of cars, and they would have sold cars that were as reliable, if not more so, than their imported competition. Instead, Detroit fell into a serious rut, turning out some seriously sub par product, of mostly a large variety.

Like I said earlier, Detroit has changed its ways of late. It is now building cars that can compete with its imported rivals in terms of economy, reliability and longevity. But it is having to battle back from what was essentially thirty years of suck, and recapture a market that it left to the imports. It's going to be a battle for Detroit, but if they continue on the path that they're on, making quality cars in models that everybody wants, it can win that battle. However if it fails, then it will go under. You can't expect people to buy inferior and/or ill fitting products simply because they're made in America

[ddeclue]

52. No you don't know what you are talking about.

Foreign cars are by and large junk after 5 years unless they are high end and German. This is especially true if they are Korean.

Take a good look around you and you'll see that most of the old cars on the road are NOT foriegn, they are American.

American pickups last forever.

Anything with a V8 will last forever until you wreck it or they stop making gas.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with my Dodge Ram P/U when I traded it in on the Dodge Charger other than the price of gas had hit $4/gallon and it was too expensive to drive. Right now the truck back would beat the new car payments but that ship has sailed.


Doug D

[JVS]

61. .

:rofl:

yeah right.

[MadHound]

152. Really? The evidence of my eyes, the evidence stated in the literature, it's all so much bullshit?

I don't think so. Let's see, just anecdotally I've got a twenty one year old Toyota that still runs fine, with little rust and 250,000 miles on it. It's a great car in the snow, saved my ass on more than one occasion. I've also got a ten year old Nissan truck and ten year old Honda that are both running fine, with the Honda as daily driver and the Nissan truck used when needed. Neither have rust, both run great and look like they will continue to run well.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of foreign made cars out there, twenty years or older, that haven't rusted away, and are still in regular use. Not just high end German cars, but Hondas, Toyotas, etc. Granted in the last part of the seventies and early eighties, Japanese car were known to rust badly, but the cars still ran and ran for years until the body rusted away from the drive train. In the mid eighties, the foreign manufacturers changed their product to stand up to US snow and salt, and as I said before, hundreds of thousands of those makes are still on the road.

You may not like this fact, but a fact it is none the less. All that you're doing by denying this is making yourself look foolish. All somebody has to do in order to verify the facts is go out to their nearest large highway and count the cars going by. You will find a large number of older foreign makes still out and about.

[Blue Gardener]

38. I love my Ford Focus

It's a great car. I had a Saturn for 17 years and it was a great car too.

[question everything]

40. This is what I have been asking:

So they get the billions that they need, now what? They have car lots full of new cars that no one is buying, so there is no need for anyone to make more cars. Pay their suppliers, for what?

Still, a report on NPR, the other day, commented on how, when our appetite for SUVs dropped, it was easier to Toyota to switch gear than it was for GM. So there is something about a quick response to changes in the market environment.

[JVS]

43. Then what is Detroit's fucking problem?

Their cars are AWESOME.

Imports are "rice burning" shit that NOBODY WANTS.

Bad quality cars are a thing of the PAST that car you got in the 80's or 90's that SUCKED ASS is no reflection on the KICK ASS QUALITY that the new cars have. Just like they told us in the 90's that the quality problems of the 1970's and 80's are OVER. Thus establishing a PROUD tradition of CARS that don't SUCK as much as they did 10 years ago. :headbang:

It certainly isn't the fault of labor because these guys make sure that there is great QUALITY and the labor cost being put out by the management are UNION BUSTING BULLSHIT

Yet that same management, according to some here, is really turning things around and those of us who criticize them are BLOWHARDS who couldn't do it better but just COMPLAIN

And somehow all of this results in them sticking their hands out for $25BILLION. So that they can keep making the cars that AMERICA LOVES, even though nobody is currently buying the ones that they have already made.

[skepticscott]

47. That's the real question, isn't it?

If American cars are so much better for the money, what exactly is it that keeps domestic car makers from being able to turn a profit? And the whole business of Congress asking the car makers to present a "plan" for turning things around in order to get the handout is ludicrous. We've already seen the best ideas they have to offer along those lines for the past few decades, and they aren't cutting it, for whatever reason. What makes Congress or anyone else think that Ford, Chrysler and GM will all of a sudden come up with brilliantly successful but heretofore untried business strategies in the next three months when they haven't been able to for 30 years?

[JVS]

127. There is obviously some kind of problem, but those who advocate helping these companies...

are unwilling to admit that there must have been some kind of problem that caused them to need help in the first place. So it gets blamed on foreign competition, which somehow is overpriced and sucks, but manages to compete unfairly. :shrug:

[ddeclue]

53. Did you READ the entire post or just make up what you wanted??

I EXPLAINED the problem in very consistent terms - it is the general economy, it is the job market, it is the banking world and it is going to affect ALL car manufacturers, not just American ones.

Go back and re-read.

Doug D.

[JVS]

59. I'm sorry I drifted off in a daydream when you were talking about your BOSS CAMARO!

:headbang: Just thinking of it cruising along with its V-8 at 1200, or was it 1600 RPMs, made me totally space off and think about how some turbo going 2400RPM would get totally PWNED in some kind of dragrace on a neverending highway when eventually engine wear fucked it up. If we have Camaros like that, even if they quit making them several years ago, how could there be a problem?

[ddeclue]

67. ??? Apparently you didn't read the article at all...

By the way the Camaro is back in 2009...the only reason they stopped building them was that GM could make more money building trucks and SUV's.

Who was talking about drag racing?? The only kind of "contest" was durability....

Are you ADD?

Doug D.

[JVS]

74. What article? You didn't link to an article.

Yeah I read your post. It sucked. Happy about that?

[ddeclue]

94. Thanks for the non-sequitir argument....what a waste of time you are...

You haven't proved anything other than you didn't read the post or can't comprehend it.

[JVS]

99. If your points were so important, why did you need to give them second billing to

Tales of the Bitchenest Camaro EVAR?

[ddeclue]

102. Dude are you drinking or something???

Who called it the "Bitchinist" car? Not me...

It's totally stock... I've done NOTHING to modify it after market.

????

It's YOU who started all this complaining about "bitchinist car",not me.

:eyes:

[JVS]

60. read again. Doesn't answer my questions.

[ddeclue]

72. Then you have a reading comprehension problem.

I EXPLAINED how the problem was not a Detroit problem it was a BANKING problem, a jobs problem, and a regulatin problem.

Subject verb object what part didn't you understand??

:eyes:

[JVS]

76. Your solutions are a bunch of unworkable platitudes.

Fair trade? Like between different states in the US where the Toyotas and Hondas are made?

Breaking up the companies that are too big to fail while supporting unions? Do you have any idea how badly the UAW would freak if GM were going to be broken into several companies? That would mean negotiating several more contracts at best, or having to refight the struggle to be recognized as the bargaining agent at several companies and failing to do so at worst.

[ddeclue]

85. Fair Trade:

What part is it that you don't understand?

I'm talking about the fact that almost all manufacturing in America has been shipped to China. It's not about Mercedes built in Alabama or BMW's in SC or Toyotas in CA or Nissans in TN vs. Detroit cars.

What I'm talking about is that when the vast majority of good manufacturing jobs are gone to China, Americans can no longer afford to buy a new car and the Chinese workers who replaced them can't either on 50 cents a day.

As for breaking up companies, I'm talking more about oil companies, banks, and telecoms than the automotive companies which should also be broken up but can wait for the time being. Actually it would be in the UAW's interest to have more companies to deal with because it would equalize the situation and force more competitive pay for workers and force a need for more workers because functions that are now combined would then be duplicated between competing companies.

As I said you didn't read what I wrote.

:eyes:

Doug D.

[JVS]

86. Does fair trade mean we get rid of all those Fords made in Mexico?

[ddeclue]

91. I think it means:

That Ford Workers in Mexico should be allowed unionize without fear of retribution.
That Mexican citizens should be able to have a viable multiparty democracy.
That the Mexican economy shouldn't be controlled by just a handful of uber wealthy families.
That Mexican workers should have comparable access to health care as US workers.
That Mexican worksrs can reasonably expect comparable safety and environmental protections to America workers.

[skepticscott]

44. Anecdotal accounts mean nothing

Even if foreign cars are higher in lifetime quality, with as many cars as there are on the road of course there are going to be SOME American vehicles on the road that outlast SOME imports. Even if you line up hundreds of people to say "I had a (fill in the blank with a Japanese car) and it was a piece of shit and I had nothing but trouble with it, then I bought a (fill in the blank with an American car) and it's still going strong 15 years later", it really doesn't prove squat. Threads like this get filled with those stories from both sides, but they do nothing to explain why American car manufacturers can't turn a profit.

And as far as the American consumer, he's just like the American government...he hasn't had any REAL money to spend in a long time, he's just been feeding at the credit trough and indulging in an orgy of debt that eventually has to be paid.

[ddeclue]

81. And your statistics are doubtful because they come from people with agendas

against American cars.

What I've said is the truth, V8 RWD car will drive your Japanese POS car into the ground every single time.

Ever seen an American cab company running Japanese cars?

Ever seen a police dept by a Toyota for a cruiser?

There's a reason, the American RWD car with the V8 will outlast the Japanese FWD 4 banger junk over the long haul.

Doug D.

[skepticscott]

131. What statistics?

I haven't cited any statistics, so WTF are you talking about? And "every single time"? I doubt that. The fact that you would put a blanket "POS" label on Japanese cars shows that you're just plain deluded, however much you may claim to know about their insides. The Chevette was a piece of shit. The Pinto was a piece of shit. The Cavalier was a piece of shit. Need I go on? I could...all night...and you know it. And it may surprise you to learn that not everybody wants to drive a V8 muscle car for everything. And of course American police department buy American cars...even if the law didn't require them to, they'd get ripped if they didn't. Just tell me how many European police departments buy Crown Vics for their fleets.

[Edweird]

45. Thank you. I'm sick to death of this "They built teh hummerz and should fail" crap.

[DainBramaged]

51. I'm just going back to "clicking" those idiots now

Life is too short. My ignore list can go to infinity for all I care.

And some of them just don't want to admit that they made the ignore list, they keep hoping beyond hope I'll reply. How sad they must be to resort to that.

[AZ Criminal JD]

71. You still around?

[flvegan]

64. Part of it IS their problem.

Problem is, the shitty cars they built were in the 70's, much of the 80's and a chunk of the 90's when the Japanese automakers got a good foothold. While your Cavalier was in the garage, your neighbor's Civic never failed. GM/Ford took a beating to their reputation and some folks never forgave them. I agree that GM and Ford are building some fine, albeit largely boring cars now. A great improvement in quality most certainly.

You are right about the V8/rear wheel drive combos for American cars. How many small to average sized family cars are built in the US with a V8 and rear wheel drive? I also wonder about your data on the US V8 v the Japanese turbo 4. Just as an observation, I see a LOT more Eclipses and 300ZX cars from the 90's than I do Z28/Trans Am models (and you can change the spark plugs in the Japanese cars yourself).

[ddeclue]

75. Japan built plenty of shitty cars then too...

I know I've owned a few of them.

As for 300ZX's my landlord's broken down 300ZX sits besides my house and has for years. My Z28 still goes.

:rofl:

Turbo chargers stress an engine and have various modes of failure like bearings and oil leaks. I had a Plymouth Sundance turbo with a brazillian 2.2L 4 banger back in 1989-1990 that the T/C blew up on with an oil leak.

Doug D.

[JVS]

77. Your bitchin Camaro is a tribute to American Autos

:patriot:

Unfortunately there are hundreds of thousands of Camrys and Accords that are tributes to reliable and practical transportation that it has to contend with

[ddeclue]

95. Whatever... you are not making any sense...

Camrys and Accords are no more practical than my Camaro. They get comparable mileage but with an inferior performance and ultimately they cost more and will last fewer miles.

It's pretty clear you are just here as an American car basher who knows nothing technical about cars who wants to waste all of our time.

[LeftyMom]

138. No.

Look, I know Camaros. I like them. My Dad had one when I was a kid, my Mom has one right this very minute, my sister used to have one. Every member of my immediate family has had one at some point except me- they're not exactly kid friendly, due to the near absence of a back seat, or I might be tempted. Well, me or my my seven year old, but his only ride is a Trek mountain bike.

There's no goddamn way they're as reliable as a Camry or Accord. None. For one thing, new or old, I haven't encountered one that doesn't need an alternator about as often as a set of tires.

[flvegan]

90. Of course they did.

My point was comparing my real world observation against absent data. My 90's 5.0 GT went through 3 transmissions before getting parked in my carport indefinitely with less than 120k, yet my friends Supra still went. We could probably go back and forth all evening on this, so let's agree to disagree. Don't get me wrong, I like the Camaro and the Trans Am. I've owned 5 American V8/rear drive performance cars and I liked them all. I think it is a great technology, but the durability of the rest of the car hasn't been there for a while. Also, GM just isn't using it enough anymore, at least not at a starting price point below $30k.

Turbocharges do stress an engine, and they do have various modes of failure. That's why I wouldn't buy a shitty turbo car that's built to fail...like the Plymouth Sundance/Dodge Shadow. My Grand National never had a turbo nor engine issue. My Mazdaspeed only has 13k miles on it, so I'll have to let you know in 5 years or so.

[ddeclue]

98. The rest of the car has held up well as well.

It's been repainted twice due to accidents.

I replaced the top in 2001 after 6 years but it is still on that top.

Mechanically it's had few problems and will continue to be a good car for years to come.

Good luck with your Mazda - I had 2 626's in the 80's and 90's and I have no more interest in Mazda's as a result.

[flvegan]

126. Good for your one shining example.

Good luck with your Chevy. I had a Z28 and 2 Corvettes between the 80's and 90's, which would have largely turned me off of Chevy's had I not enjoyed making them better than Chevy intended.

[tabasco]

92. Get a clue.

Anecdotal evidence is essentially worthless.

You don't sound like an educated person to me.

You should know that your limited personal observations are a minuscule fraction of the autos on the road in the last few decades.

[JVS]

97. Don't you realize that the fact that a babied Camaro outlives a 300ZX proves that imports suck?

[ddeclue]

101. Who babies it??? It has been my daily commute car for 12 years

until I bought a new car this year and now it's my weekend toy.

The car has been driven everywhere from Detroit in the winter time to Phoenix in the summer time and Florida's humidity and Atlanta's rush hour traffic.

It has hardly been "babied"... :rofl:

My landlord's Z was treated no differently and he and I are both engineers so stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it.

:rofl:

Thanks for sharing your snarky remarks... they're hilarious...

[JVS]

103. I'm sure you give the car significantly more attention than most people give their cars.

After all, you didn't manage to start a thread about the auto industry without mentioning it

[ddeclue]

107. Uh.. I do the manufacturer recommended PM's and keep it clean..

that's about it.

Should I intentionally abuse it and not change oil so that you can continue to believe in your fantasy that American cars are bad and Japanese cars are good?

:eyes:

[JVS]

111. If you want to draw conclusions concerning the reliability of different auto brands, probably.

If the public abuses its cars, then the matter of reliability becomes a question of which cars stand up best to abuse.

Although even then, your trial would not be statistically valid proof. Japanese cars retain resale value better than American cars. This would not happen if they turned into crap after 5 years as you said above.

[ddeclue]

119. Check the resales on a 1995 Z28 Camaro Convertible...

My car holds plenty of value for a car with 188,000 miles on it.

Jap cars are junk. As I said, how many cab companies and police departments use them? Not many because they don't last long enough for the heavy use they get in these applications.

Doug D.

[JVS]

125. I think your views on "jap cars" might be something less than objective

:eyes:

[GOPisEvil]

142. My mother is a "Jap".

I'll thank you not to slur her or her family further.

[flvegan]

146. Okay, I did.

Found a coupe here with 144k for $2800.00. I'll give you $5k for having a 'vert. Which is good, no doubt..

Also found: '97 Toyota Supra, 100k miles, no mods, $32,000.000.

I had to go back to 1985 to find one that was in the same price range.

Yeah, "Jap" cars are junk.

Cab companies and police depts? Aren't police departments guided by lowest bidder?

[ddeclue]

104. Between the two of us I'm sure I know more about cars AND statistics.

I have a degree in aerospace engineering, I'm a licensed pilot and a good automotive mechanic, I work in test engineering and have even worked in the automotive test business for Sverdrup Technology putting in wind-tunnel and dyno test cells for Ford and Hyundai.

What exactly are your credentials to discuss automotive technology with me again???

[JVS]

112. You say your a good mechanic. You maintain the car yourself?

[ddeclue]

116. It depends but most of the time there's nothing to do but the oil so I let someone do it.

It used to be worth my time to do these things - not as much any more.

I've done:

head gaskets
CV joints
clutch
water pumps
carbs
exhaust
shocks
brakes
AC
alternators/electrical
hydraulics
tune ups.

[ret5hd]

153. I've seen you on TV!!!

[Jack Sprat]

79. No argument here.

If you worked in manufacturing or still do, you have seen management teams employed for the sole purpose of cutting back the work force. It is all about saving labor costs and maximizing profits. That's all great and fine for the investors, but it is all bad for potential consumer whose potential job and earnings is going away.

[ddeclue]

105. There is nothing wrong with improving efficiency

if you are truly improving efficiency and not taking a short cut like using Kathy Lee's kids to build your product. If you are TRULY improving efficiency then theoretically your product price should come down accordingly so that even though the available capital to buy it has decreased, the unit price has also decreased.

That's not what we see with jobs to China though. The products really aren't any cheaper. The robber barons are simply pocketing the difference between the Detroit worker's salary and the Chinese worker's "salary" and still charging Americans full price for their products.

That's unsustainable and it has finally collapsed.

Doug D.

[Lifetimedem]

96. K&R

Truth telling is never popular

[ddeclue]

110. OK I've got to get into my AMERICAN made Dodge Charger R/T

and drive from Fort Lauderdale to Orlando now. I'm doing this drive every day of the week right now because of having to relo back to FTL to take a job. Good thing I have a good AMERICAN made car to do it in.

Flame away American car bashers.

Doug D.

[tabasco]

108. Gotta be the stupidest thing I've read all day.

"In fact Detroit was SO successful selling big cars and trucks that it forced Nissan,
Toyota and the German car companies to start making cars that Americans would actually buy..."

LMAO.

http://www.truedelta.com/results0908.php

[ddeclue]

114. Apparently you don't actually pay attention to car trends.

Go back 15 years and look at the engine displacements and sizes of Japanese vehicles and look at them now. Japanese cars and trucks have had to get bigger to compete here because Americans were not happy with them. Japanese cars and trucks do NOT controlt the majority of American car sales and never have. They are still in the minority so American drivers clearly prefer American cars over Japanese cars even today.

Doug D.

[JuniperLea]

154. The point is they did change, and they stayed competitive. eom

[JuniperLea]

120. Yeah, that is blatantly stupid, isn't it?

Japanese cars have been on top for years... and they were smart enough to "steal back" some of the sales on larger trucks. They weren't "forced". That is just lame and stupid. They were smart to take yet MORE auto sales from American auto makers.

The American automakers were the first to crash and burn for a reason, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

[Kolesar]

141. The Toyota Echo failed in the marketplace--not enough buyers for the small car

[JuniperLea]

109. If American cars are so much better, then why are the top three automakers

Circling the white porcelain? If they are making such great cars, what is the problem? Why are they approaching bankruptcy?

This makes no sense whatsoever if what you are saying is true.

[ddeclue]

113. Is there some kind of reading comprehension problem here tonight?

I explicitly explained why there is a problem and you can count on foreign auto mfg's joining Detroit in their problems shortly.

Doug D.

[JuniperLea]

115. No, but there seems to be a problem with cognitive reasoning...

Of course the foreign automakers will join them, but not through any fault of their own. It's the economy. Too few people are able to buy new cars now, and even fewer will be able to in the near future.

Seems pretty pathetic that you have to insult people like that. It makes your already flimsy excuses seem all the more vague and idiotic.

[ddeclue]

123. What's your problem???

I said EXACTLY that, that the Detroit automakers problems were NOT their fault but ECONOMY's fault in my OP. So apparently it is only OK for YOU to say that about foreign car mfg's but NOT for me to say the exact same thing in reference to Detroit...

The cognitive dissonance in your reasoning is astounding.

I said that ALL automakers were going to have a problem because of the economy. You seem hell bent on assigning blame to the American automakers rather than realize that your own argument applies to ALL manufacturers.

:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

133. No, you didn't say exactly what I said...

No wonder you think I'm daft.. but truly, it must be you, because I didn't say what you are saying I did.

The American automakers have been losing ground to foreign automakers for decades now. Why do you suppose that is? Decades. This is not new.

[tammywammy]

148. Toyota's asking the EU for a bailout n/t

[JuniperLea]

156. Right... that is now... that is economy based...

All are suffering from the economy right now. But the decline in American car sales has been a very steady decline over the decades, with Japanese car sales steadily increasing over the decades.

[Ichingcarpenter]

122. My Brother used to have a Corvette and me a BMW 1600

We would race them to work on a mountainous road in the 70s

I would beat him on the curves and he would catch up on the straightaways.

He was so impressed with my car he sold his vette and bought a 2002 tii.


My BMW was tuned by a german member of the BMW race team at the
going rate of a normal mechanic.

I've had American and Foreign cars and I like both and had lemons on either side of the coin. I loved my Oldsmobile cutlass but not on the curves.

I like the new Fords but I'm not in the market for car, for hopefully a long time.

[ddeclue]

124. German cars are much better than Japanese

but also more expensive.

I prefer stiff suspensions - both the Camaro and Charger have stiff suspensions.

Unfortunately most Americans prefer smooth ride - this translates usually to sloppy handling.

I have only ever bought two new cars both American, the first in 1995, the second in January of this year. Everything else has been used.

[Ichingcarpenter]

128. The 1600 BMW when it came out cost $2500

Car and Driver called it "the best small sedan we ever drove" as well as "the best economy car ever offered to an undeserving American public." The 1602 was cheap ($2,500new), fast 112mph, economical (up to 30 mpg on the highway) and reliable.

It was my first and last BMW, couldn't afford them after I had kids and the dollar lost its value.

[nolabels]

129. Our 89 Seville with a 4.5 mounted sideways kicks ass on any turn or curve

We found the car a just in nice condition with just 42k and very good condition in Palm Springs. This is our second time around with a used Seville, the first one had a 140k on it and me and the wife put another 120k on it till we decided to park it (good spare parts car now!). Yea, the Bmr's might be nice but us poor folks can't always afford the best :shrug:

[Ichingcarpenter]

135. My Dad had two Sevilles bought one every 12 years

They still didn't handle well. The newer ones do though

I don't think you read my thread when I bought my BMW, it was considered an economy car.

[nolabels]

145. I just kind of picked up the part about going around curves

My everyday car for economy and a short drive to work is just a plain vanilla four-banger Ford Ranger. That Seville is just spare car for us in case one breaks down.

This little Caddy handles pretty good if you understand it's strong points. The low center of gravity with the power of a V-8 sitting over that front wheel drive keeps the ass-end in place. On a firm paved road, it would probably flip over before you could get it to slide or fish tail in the back. It's scary because it does maneuvers you wouldn't think it could do. Well at least the ole one got me out of quite of few jambs anyway.

Sorry misinterpretation on the thread, it was that it just reminded me of how fun that little caddy is :-)

[Two Americas]

130. good post, thanks

It occurs to me that perhaps people who are not from Detroit cannot understand that we can both feel a sense of ownership and loyalty to Detroit iron AND be fully aware of bad management at the auto companies.

Also, I think that import ownership is weighted to higher income people and to the coasts, so much of the anti-Detroit sentiment is snobbery, with people looking down their noses at blue collar people and at people in "flyover" country.

As you said, factors that have nothing to do with automobiles are the cause of the current problems - deregulation, "free trade," the health care nightmare, union busting...

[economicgeography]

134. Or maybe the factor is a recession n/t

[Two Americas]

136. what does that mean?

"Recession" is a word to describe certain conditions.

[mdmc]

132. nice

r

[Indenturedebtor]

147. The "US" automakers were in trouble long before the credit crunch

The gas prices didn't help things, but all three of them had earned a reputation for crappy quality over the preceding 2-3 decades of producing garbage.

The quality of all three of them had started to tick up after the new millenium, but really they all put out total crap for decades before that, relying on brand recognition and form over function.

It will take a generation of producing good reliable fuel efficient cars before they can redeem their names. If they're still around that is.

[dweller]

149. boy, reading this was fun, i get your point, but...

My 84 Nissan Stanza was approaching 400K miles when i sold it. My 91 Subaru Legacy L has 250K+ on it, but it's sitting while i contemplate repairs... which i'll most likely do in the spring if i want to put it back on the road. I've owned 3 American cars in my life, and 2 were Corvairs. The other was so easily forgotten because it was boring.

but i'm having too much fun running around in my 77 VW bus. Air-cooled, yes. Has to be maintained, yes. Parts hard to find, but not impossible, yes. Actual miles on it...unknown.

The engine/trans/drivetrain components/and all other maintanence accessories all easily owner replaced. And the wide smiles, peace signs and hi-5's sent my way while driving....priceless.

ymmv,
dp