Toyota Ahead in 2007 Recalls ( a new email I just received)

[DainBramaged]

If you've merely done a moderate amount of Internet surfing or cracked open a newspaper lately - just about any newspaper - you've undoubtedly seen the news that Toyota has once again passed Ford in worldwide auto sales and may pass GM sometime this year. But what you may not have seen is that Toyota has already passed both Ford and GM in a different category - automotive recalls.

Although we've barely passed mid-March, Toyota has already recalled 533,417 vehicles this year in a mix that, according to www.AutoRecalls.us, includes Tundras Sequoias and Camry's.That puts Toyota on track to recall more than the over 1.76 million autos they recalled in the U.S. and Japan in 2006, and the 2.2 million they recalled in 2005 when they recalled more cars than they built.

What's more, the current recall related to the Turdra trucks and Sequioa SUVs is similar to the same defect in 800,000 of the same vehicles in 2005. Maybe somebody at Toyota isn't paying attention? Hopefully the American consumers are. Recall numbers by domestic companies (GM and Ford) so far this year are as follows: Ford, 128,163; Chevrolet 4,829;and Pontiac, 1,602. Chrysler - a German company masquerading as an American company with plans to start importing cars from China in 2008 - has recalled 77,432 vehicles so far in 2007.

To be sure, high recall numbers are not good. Auto companies would much rather prefer high sales numbers instead. As I've already mentioned, the media is abuzz that GM may lose its crown this year to Toyota in worldwide auto sales. But for that to ever happen in the U.S. sales category,
it's going to take several more years since GM has a U.S. market share of 24.3% compared to 15.4% for Toyota. Even Ford, despite their recent troubles, has a higher domestic market share than Toyota at 17.5%. But if GM loses their worldwide crown this year, it may actually turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Here's why:

First, GM spent 17% less per vehicle this January compared to last January, which means they are more profitable on a per-unit basis. In fact, GM expects to report a profit for the most recent quarter. Second, it may be good for GM to step aside temporarily, for now, and let Toyota take all the ammunition that is always aimed at the top dog of the industry so there is less pressure and fewer distractions. And when GM combines their more-solid profitability and their improved quality
together, their public perception will also improve.

Then they can use these admirable qualities to prepare to surge back on top at the precise time Toyota is in the top slot with their recall surge in the news. Toyota's timing at being number one worldwide would create further skepticism about whether they really deserve their reputation
for untarnished quality.

According to Business Week's January 22, 2007 issue, Toyota has recalled 9.3 million vehicles in the last three years, which is nearly four times the number of recalls in the three year period prior to 2004.

Other recent news that won't sit well with a Camry-conscious public is the class-action lawsuit recently settled by Toyota regarding ruinous oil sludge buildup covering 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus (yes, Lexus) vehicles. Optimistic statements by Toyota executives aren't going to cut it for
long- particularly when they don't match well with reality. Denial in the Camry-company camp seems to be setting in. Toyota's North American president Jim Press recently disputed the suggestion that his company no longer enjoys a large lead in reliability over the American competition.
Speculating on the thoughts of American car company well-wishers while Speaking at the recent Chicago Auto Show, Press said "I think there's some hope that the gap in quality is closing, but it really isn't."


Oh, really? That's a pretty strong comment considering Toyota recalled 1.27 million vehicles in one swoop in 2005, recording the biggest-ever recall in history for a Japanese car company.
But, recalls notwithstanding, the evidence that the quality gap is closing is pretty indisputable, and the evidence has been piling up for more than just the last couple of years.

* A February 10, 2003 Business Week told of how undeniable it was that GM cars are better built than they used to be. The article cited an improved J.D. Power quality ranking and a Consumer Reports recommendation for 13 of GM's vehicles (equal to 41% of their sales volume) compared to just five recommended GM vehicles for the previous year. The Chevy Impala beat the Camry in a quality survey, and Buick beat BMW.

* Business Week also reported September 23, 2003 that GM boosted its productivity 23% in six years while Toyota's productivity remained flat, and that GM's most-productive factories now beat Toyota's most-productive factories. * A 2004 Consumer Reports ranking selected the Buick Regal as the most reliable among family sedans, beating the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Nissan Maxima. They also gave recommended ratings for four Ford models, including the Ford Focus.

* J.D. Power and Associates awarded Cadillac's Lansing Grand River assembly center its highest honor - the Gold Plant Quality Award - in 2004. * An August 4, 2004 Wall Street Journal article said Toyota's lead in quality and reliability has narrowed in some segments and disappeared
in others. Quality problems were reportedly "mushrooming." * The Toyota Camry hasn't been awarded the best in its segment since the year 2000, but many Americans continue to regard it as the number one model in terms of quality. Toyota's Kentucky Camry plant was awarded with high initial quality rankings by J.D. Power from the late 1980s through the 1990s, but it plummeted to number 26 in 2002, improving to only number 14 in 2004, while two GM factories and one Ford factory took the top three spots that year. * In a J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey of new 2004 cars, Chevy placed second behind Honda and Toyota sank to number three. * As far back as at least 2003, Business Week has reported that American consumers regard certain foreign cars as better built than American cars, even when facts prove otherwise.


* Fast-forwarding to 2006, J.D. Power shows Mercury, Buick and Cadillac beat Toyota in a list of dependable cars. Two Buick's and a Mercury took the top three mid-size car awards; Mercury, Ford and Buick took the top three large car awards; Ford took the mid-size van award and the mid-size truck award; and GMC and Cadillac took the large MAV (multi-purpose activity vehicle) and large premium MAV awards, respectively. * In an article about trust issues, Business Week's December 11, 2006 issue stated "GM's quality nearly equals Toyota's." Perceived quality among the American public is another story, however. The difference between the actual quality of American cars and the perceived quality of American cars is the "perception gap." * In the same article, J.D. Power's director for retail research said "Actual quality is so close" - discussing the quality rankings of GMC, Chevrolet and Cadillac placing them on par with both Honda and Toyota. * And most recently, of course, the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan beat the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry according to Consumer Reports.

What's needed among automotive senior executives, and much of the media as well, is a return to intellectual honesty. Everyone tends to have their favorites and biases BUT sticking with the facts to back up any comments.


When Toyota's North American president says that the quality gap isn't really closing, he's not being intellectually honest. Some editorial writers aren't either. When Douglas Brinkley trumpeted
Indiana's success in a Wall Street Journal article last year for attracting a Honda plant to their state - even though it took $140 million in tax credits and incentives - he wasn't what you would call "intellectually honest." In an apparent attempt to convince the reader that Honda doesn't send any automobiles to the U.S. from outside the country, he said the following: "Turning farm fields into factories, that's what Henry Ford used to do. Today, in the heartland, it's being
done by Honda - a company that doesn't manufacture imports but builds American-made cars."

Such statements lead the reader to think that some Japanese companies make all of their cars in the USA. Hardly. In fact, according to a January 8, 2007 Wall Street Journal article, the NAP ratio - a ratio that compares how many cars are built in North America vs. the number of cars
imported - is slipping for Toyota. And according to Toyota internal documentation, the ratio is going to worsen next year.


by Roger Simmermaker

Roger Simmermaker is the author of "How Americans Can Buy American: The Power of Consumer Patriotism." He also writes "Buy American Mention of the Week" articles for his website www.howtobuyamerican.com and is a member of the Machinists Union and National Writers Union. Roger has been a frequent guest on Fox News, CNN and MSNBC and has been quoted in the USA Today, Wall Street Journal and US News & World Report among many other publications.

[robinlynne]

1. how bout GM make some of them ther lectric cars agin?

[DainBramaged]

3. I guess you didn't understand dem ther article?

[robinlynne]

11. a GM press release?

[DainBramaged]

26. Nope

[robinlynne]

12. All GM has to do is build electric cars. They own the patents. they had all the cars destroyed.

I dont feel anything for GM. There are literally over a hundred thousand people (and that was ten years ago, imagine today!) waiting for the opportunity to buy an electric car. GM, if it did, would outsell all the hondas and toyotas in the world instantly. really simple. but it won't.

[kaygore]

16. That's my point--bad global citizens that build cars that

substitute for gonads rather than cars that will be less destructive to the planet.

[DainBramaged]

36. Then why don't those good Japanese citizens build electric cars?

Nice logic, thanks, I will use that from now on.

[jakefrep]

158. And lose even more money?

Electric cars are not profitable.

[Bozita]

2. I own two US manufactured cars from two US owned companies.

Ford and GM.

Neither car is under recall.

[DainBramaged]

4. Which is the point

[Bozita]

6. I'm just another dumb-ass American who wants to see other Americans succeed.

I like the idea of good wages, health care, and retirement plans.

[DainBramaged]

38. Me too, I fight tooth and nail for it every day

because if the GM dealerships go under, we hit recession worse than 1929. GM or Ford go bust, parts manufacturers go bust, dealers go bust, hundreds of thousands of jobs go poof.

Ain't no middle class jobs left after that.

But Japan can put restrictions on importing Amurkin cars or building plants there.

Thanks Ronnie Raygin for fucking Amurkia and making it a one way street.

How precious.

[kaygore]

5. From personal experience

I am pro Japanese cars.

My 1987 Toyota Camry still runs GREAT. I drove the precursor to the Nissan Sentra for over 200,000 miles with no trouble, giving it up for the Camry and I had a thrice before owned Honda Civic Hatchback at my East Coast home that drove without any problems well into the 200,00o miles for me and is still going for my nephew!

That's why we like Japanese cars PLUS the fact that those car companies are good global citizens--pioneering cars with great gas mileage. The Japanese didn't give the world the Hummer.

[southerncrone]

9. My husband drove an '83 Mercury LN7 to 287,000 miles & our '96 Ford Ranger had 164,000 miles on it

when an idiot kid hit it & totaled it. American car companies make good vehicles, too. We are a Ford family, so I suppose I am biased.

My daughter's '03 Focus seems to be running more often than her friend's '03 Celica, friend has had a lot of problems w/the car.

I would encourage you to drive a Fusion or Milan, or a 500 or Montego & you will see they are quality vehicles for much less $ than the Toyota or Honda counterparts.

[kaygore]

13. I treat my cars like dirt--don't put oil in them--do nothing until red lights

come on. My experience with American cars was NOT your experience nor were any of my friends' families'. I really wish I could say differently.

Some time ago when I was working with businesses to provide employee education, I was told a story that I believe explains why Japanese built cars are better. The particulars may be off but the gist is correct:

An American car manufacturer was building one of its cars in the US and the same car in Japan. The cars made in Japan had no problems whereas those made in the US did although both sites were manufacturing within spec.

When the car company finally got to the bottom of it they found that the Japanese aimed for the bull's eye each time so that there would be little or no variation, whereas the US plant was within spec which was like hitting somewhere within the ring around the bull's eye. Thus, there was variation.

I wish that American car manufacturers were better global citizens and built better cars, but they aren't and they don't.

I am glad that you have had good experiences but the companies that gave the world the Hummer and SUVs will never get my money. If the Japanese cars go down hill then I'll look elsewhere.

Ford is closing its F-150 plant in nearby Norfolk in June. This was one of its best performing plants. While the executives of Ford made very bad corporate decisions and get millions in compensation for doing so, a plant that continuously made outstanding trucks will close and some lesser plant will get the work.

No, I'll buy my cars from somewhere else.

[Bozita]

17. I've got a big problem with ...

...
"An American car manufacturer was building one of its cars in the US and the same car in Japan. The cars made in Japan had no problems whereas those made in the US did although both sites were manufacturing within spec."

Looking for some kind of factual back-up. Something like a link.

[DainBramaged]

61. NO AMERICAN CARS ARE BUILT IN JAPAN

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

139. Deleted.

Not sure I want to wade into this particular pile of insanity right now.

[uppityperson]

150. Probably for the best.

OP's ignore list is growing by leaps and bounds. Off to look at things that matter more.

[southerncrone]

18. The Japanese also build large trucks & SUVs. I agree US automakers are not

the best global citizens. But America as a whole isn't, not just the automakers. We can do better on all fronts in that regard. I hope we will.

[DainBramaged]

28. Good for you, buy that new Somewhereelse car

[robinlynne]

48. me too. I prefer to buy American. I avoid things that say made in china on the

back. However GM and the american auto companies dug their own graves, and graves for all of their workers by insisting on building bigger and bigger cars. They COULD build electrics and hybrids. The demand is huge. They won't. They care about the oil industry and thier own aprts industry. not about Americans. not about the world. not about their workers.

[Clark2008]

53. Ford family in Tennessee, here, too.

Wouldn't own a Toyota or Nissan if you paid me. More expensive to purchase, more expensive to fix.

My 1995 Mustang went TEN years before needing brakes. TEN!! :wow:

I have a 2005 Stanger now.

[MissMillie]

104. my '89 Mercury was looking for a 3rd engine, before it got to 100K

NEVER again.

[susanna]

172. I love my new Milan. Great car. n/t

[DainBramaged]

27. I am happy for you, you are so smart to buy Japanese

[ileus]

50. I can't imagine ever buying another American car

Unless it's a vett. Ford doesn't make a car I'd buy, Chevrolet makes junk, and you can't count dodge anymore.

[DainBramaged]

62. Then you are responsible for the decline of America

You have no clue what junk is unless you own a new American car to compare to you Japanese car.

[shanti]

89. i'll second that

i have a 94 tercel, my second car (which my teen son now drives) NEVER has had any problems and still runs like a top. my "new" vehicle, 04 caravan, has had numerous electrical "things" go wrong. i'll never buy an american car again - learned my lesson!

[Catherine Vincent]

7. Dang, I just bought a 2007 Camry n/t

[kaygore]

14. And you will never regret it

The dumb asses at Ford discontinued the only car that they had that could compete with it.

[DainBramaged]

29. How nice, may it run till it dies

[Catherine Vincent]

44. I sure hope so.

My previous car was a Camry and I had it for 16 years. :)

[DainBramaged]

59. Good, so you are not a Domestic customer, ever

[blondeatlast]

47. Which will be a mighty, mighty long time, in my experience. nt

[blondeatlast]

46. I've got a '99 Camry with 72K on it. Absolutely no work beyond routine

maintenance (and I'm rather lazy about that, too--I live in the desert and have my oil changed at the ordinary--not desert, intervals) and it drives and even looks like new.

I've been through many cars, American and foreign, and this baby is the best I've ever owned. I'm not planning to give it up but when it sees it's last days, I'm buying a Prius.

From now on, nothing but Toyota for me.

[DainBramaged]

63. Good for you, wonderful, you are so proud of you non-American car

[blondeatlast]

143. Indeed I am. It was built in Tennessee, too.

You're almost too easy.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

146. M'kay. Later. nt

[Touchdown]

8. JD Power is an owner survey. It's a bad measure of quality.

If the owner never owned another make (Camry), then of course the Impala is a better car than the Caprice, since they don't know what else to compare it to. Most car owners are very monogamous with their brands, so their knowledge of other makes is not one of experience, but of heresay.

It's hard to swallow that a Buick, made in the same plant, on the same day, using the same robots, the same materials, and by the same workers as a Pontiac in the same class can be 3 times as better bult than the Pontiac, or the Chevy for that matter.

And...Grandpa's car? I seriously doubt half of the Buick owners ever even sat in a BMW, much less owned one. They fought the Krauts afterall.

Quality should be measured by real tests, observable wear, fit & finish, longevity, among other things over the life of the car, not on owner surveys.

[DainBramaged]

30. Consumer Reports is a consumer based survey too

And I bet half of the Buick owners give a shit about BMW.


JD Powers goes by how many defects (service calls or complaints ) within x miles.


That isn't valid?

Stop now and put down the pen and walk away.

[Touchdown]

42. Oooooh snippy.

Look, I have a union job as well. I know the importance of well paid american jobs, and despise outsourcing, but this piece you put foreward is the rantings of a fanatic. "Turdra"???? Decrying Honda for taking tax incentives while not acknolwedging that every company (GM included most of all) does the same thing. Then of course theres the glaring omission of recalls GM wide, choosing to separate recalls by only 2 of their 7 divisions, also omitting Saab, Isuzu, Opel/Vauxhall and comparing that to Toyota world wide.

What were the recalls about? He doesn't say. Were they...

Something small, like the AC affecting radio reception?

Something major, like a propensity for cracked cylindars?

Something catastrophic, like rollovers due to tire compatibility (Explorer/Firestone)?

Answer why a Pontiac, made in the same plant received a lower JD rating than a Buick.

What phone company do you use? What cellular service do you have?

Good you changed your avatar Today. One would think you were biased with the other.

[DainBramaged]

58. Go to the NTSB site and dig out the recalls yourself.

Call Pontiac and check what day they ran the Pontiac's and what day they ran the Buick's and see if it was a Monday or after a holiday.

And if you are a "Union guy" you should be able to get your own answers. But who really knows, huh?

And what the fuck do you care what my phones SERVICES are?

How big is your paycheck? Are you the shop steward? Are you a Teamster or a baker? Or just a grocery worker, I was a grocery worker's union member when I was 16.

Oh, last thing. If you had bothered to go to the recall site listed in the post, you'd see the recalls were broken down by manufacturer.

And hidden recalls don't count, like the VW/Audi engine replacement recall for sludged engines.


Go back to work.

[Touchdown]

87. Why do I care about your phone services?

CWA Local 7750. You've heard of them, right? Communications Workers of America? If you do not use Verizon for land line or Cingular for mobile, then you are not supporting unions or union wages, period Pal! No other provider in your area (save AT&T for long distance) is union. Not Sprint, not Vonage, not Comcast, not T-Mobile, not Verizon Wireless, not Earthlink...NOTHING ELSE.

How can you lecture me about supporting union labor in your industry when you might not be supporting mine (and I strongly suspect you are not)? Trying to make a point. Oh, and they may be German, but BMW workers are union, and a very well treated, because of Germany's excellent labor laws, something I'm trying to change to here. Find me an Impala with a stick shift and a ride that isn't like driving on marshmallows and I might consider it...IF I'm in a good mood. I looked at the Caddy CTS before I bought, but they wanted too much money for it.

My paycheck? As a highly skilled Telecom technician, not as much as I should be, but about the same as a line worker at GM. I am a shop steward, my local's legislative chair, and main lobbyist for my state legislature, as well as US Congress.

You're the one that brought it up, burdon of proof is on you. I don't take "go here" orders from anyone.

[DainBramaged]

93. Do you think for one second I didn't know this?

I have had Cingular cell phone service for 3 years, AT&T from 1984 to 2004 (I just check records)and now they are AT&T again, Verizon land line forEVER even when they were NJ Bell, and AT&T has been my long distance carrier for 25+ years. And AT&T is my email, and I will be getting the FULL Vios package in a month. Fuck Cablevision, using independent non-union contractors.

Oh. PS, the Verizon tech who installed my phones in this house was dumber than a stump, and had to BORROW my line tester/handset because he lost his.

Be well.

[Touchdown]

95. Good on you.

My apologies. :hi:

BTW: I bought it used.
PS: The losers are always sent to homes. The good techs go to businesses and take care of the central offices...such is life.:shrug:

[DainBramaged]

97. Thanks

Call, it would be good to meet you anyway

Be well

:hi: :yourock:

[southerncrone]

10. The profits go back to the country of origin! This is important. Japan receives the profits,

regardless of where the Japaneses cars are manufactured. The profits of US automakers remain in the United States.

[kaygore]

15. They deserve it. They make better cars and are better global citizens

[southerncrone]

19. Interesting response.

[DainBramaged]

37. Prove it, show us the links

Do you want to move to Japan? A nice country, wonderful people. very small homes, very small. Higher cost of living than almost all cities in Amurkia.

Got anything else for us?

[DainBramaged]

64. Bullshit, they KILL whales, how good of a Global citizen does that make them?

Prove it, show us facts to prove your statement. My resonse just destroyed your dreams.

[Solon]

22. No it doesn't, at least not entirely...

It honestly doesn't matter where a company was initially incorporated, the profits go to where they can be reinvested, in many different countries or back to the shareholders, who can be anywhere in the world, and, in the case of GM and Ford, to overpaid CEOs as well.

You buy a car, anywhere in the world, by any manufacturer, and that car was built from parts around the world, and the money you paid for that car will go pretty much everywhere in the world. These companies are called multi-nationals for a reason, I don't see why we should be "patriotic" towards companies that a devoid of that view themselves.

[Rosemary2205]

23. Here's a perfect example.

My 1993 Honda Accord was 84% American parts and assembled in Marysville, Ohio.

My 1997 Ford Escort was 78% American parts and assembled in Hermasillo, Mexico.

[DainBramaged]

32. The Japanese won't let us build a plant in Japan

Can you explain the reasons why, and can you explain how difficult it is to compete on a level playing field?

[LSK]

88. who the hell is "us"???

Thats your problem, you seem to think GM cares about Americans. It answers to its SHAREHOLDERS, not to some blind patriotism.

Get a grip!

[DainBramaged]

102. You don't think the foreign manufacturers are the same?

You live in La la land. Brainwashed by propaganda and advertising.

Like the Honda commercial with the Owl and body.

Know why they took that commercial down so fast, EVERYBODY uses safety cage construction, false advertising.

[LSK]

112. wrong

1. Im not the one defending any manufacturers.

2. I dont know what commercial you are talking about

3. Theres no way on earth im brainwashed by advertising as I never watch commercials on TV. Its called a REMOTE.

Try again.

[DainBramaged]

115. I'm not going to bother

We've had run-ins before. Just put me on ignore, it's better for you.

[LSK]

128. i dont ignore anyone

But Im leaving this thread.

:hi:

[DainBramaged]

131. I'm not arguing with you anymore

You've tried to bait me in the past, and I do ignore people. You included.

C ya

[uppityperson]

134. I'm curious.

How many times do you usually tell someone you are going to ignore them before you do?

[DainBramaged]

135. A lot, so they know not to bother replying to my posts.

Oh, and you can, it's in the rules.

On edit, I can't stand people who 1) blast Hillary Clinton, she isn't even our candidate yet
2) Hate America or try to bait members into getting banned 3) are utterly __________ you fill in the blank.

[uppityperson]

137. I can what, what's in the rules? Too cryptic for me there.

[DainBramaged]

140. Ignore people and TELL them I am going to

Stop

[uppityperson]

141. Sweet? Wonderful? Loving? Curious? And another question for you.

(those terms were to fill in the blank, silly I know but I am trying to be positive as usually I am snidely cynical and am trying to break this habit)
What does "Hate America" mean to you?

[jhasp]

114. If the cost of living (and production) are so high in Japan...

why would we want to?

[DainBramaged]

126. Why do the Chinese want to come here? Japanese?

Mexicans? Central and South Americans? ANyone?

Why shouldn't we be able to compete there. You still haven't given me an answer.

[Solon]

162. Ford and GM HAVE plants in Japan dammit, stop LYING!!!!

http://www.ford.com/en/company/about/sustainability/2005-06/overviewProfileGlobalTypeAssembly.htm

Hiroshima Plant - Plant 1 (U1)

Ujina District (Japan)
Products: Mazda2, Verisa, MX-5, MPV, RX-8, E-Series (Bongo Van, Bongo Brawny Van, Bongo Brawny Friendee), J-80 Van
Year opened: 1966

Hiroshima Plant - Plant 2 (U2)

Ujina District (Japan)
Products: Mazda3, Mazda5, CX-7
Year opened: 1972

Hofu Plant - Plant 1 (H1)

Nishinoura District (Japan)
Products: Mazda3
Year opened: 1982

Hofu Plant - Plant 2 (H2)

Nishinoura District (Japan)
Products: Mazda3, Mazda6
Year opened: 1992

[DainBramaged]

166. OK, one last time, is MAZDA an American car?

[tammywammy]

168. According to Ford, it's one of their brands

So, I'd say yes, it's American.

http://www.ford.com/en/company/about/brands/default.htm

Vehicle Brands:
Ford
Lincoln
Mercury
Mazda
Volvo
Jaguar
Land Rover

[DainBramaged]

169. They own an INTEREST but OWN Volvo, Jaguar, Rover, and Astin

GM owns SAAB, and I would buy none of them except Chevy or Cadillac, maybe Pontiac, Chevy all my life.

[DainBramaged]

31. So many people here do not believe that truth

Ooh, ooh, it's built here it an Amurkin car, yes it is. Ohh ohh, they pay Amurkin workers to build it.


Bullshit.

[jhasp]

111. No they don't.

Ultimately, the profits go to the owners of the company...the stockholders. Toyota is traded on the NYSE.

[ComerPerro]

156. Like I could give a shit if the profits go to American, German, or Japanese billionaires

what the fuck difference does it make to me?

For one thing, its not as though the American companies are doing anything with their profits to help the US or its economy. Moreover, there is no real concept of "American car" vs "foreign car" anymore. Foreign cars are built in the US in many cases, so American workers are paid. Beyond that, I couldnt' give a shit.

[gollygee]

161. I'm not particularly concerned about where the corporate owners live

I'm more concerned about where the workers live. SO I'd choose a Toyota assembled in the US over a Ford assembled elsewhere.

[Rosemary2205]

20. Toyota stands behind it's product, Ford and GM say "sue me sucker"

Toyota will recall on a radio knob, wearing leather on the steering wheel and back speakers that don't work right while Ford watches 100's of F150's go up in flames and still refuses to be held responsible.

Toyota defects are nearly always on small nuisance items, while Ford's will get you killed and destroy your home.

[DainBramaged]

33. When was the last time you owned an Amurkin car

Be honest, no "my Uncle or friend or neighbor in 6 towns away", YOU, peresonal experience.

You are flapping propaganda from 20 years ago.

[MadHound]

40. What, you deny that there are flaming Crown Vics out there?

I've got hundreds of police depts. to prove you wrong. And these CVs went up for much the same reason that their elder cousins, the Pinto did. Cheap ass gasket that failed in a rear end crash. And the remedy is similar too, replace said cheap ass gasket with one that costs a quarter more:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

65. So you base your opinion on one car, (what year were they?)

Do you OWN a car? Drive?

[MadHound]

164. 1983-2002 Crown Vics, the police models

And yes, I own several cars, and drive all of them. I collect old cars, and most of them are old domestic models, Chrysler, Chevy, Ford. However my daily drivers are a '98 Honda, or a '98 Nissan Frontier, or a '05 Bajaj Scooter.

Being as I have little money to spend on cars, I expect to get quality out of each and every one. However for the last thirty plus years, that battle of quality has gone to the foreign makes. Domestics either don't make what I want, smaller, fuel efficient models, or their quality is severely lacking, or both.

I think that it is foolish for you to expect people to pay hard earned money for poor quality, simply to support unions and domestic auto makers. The domestic auto makers saw the writing on the wall decades ago, yet they still continue to crank out poor quality products.

Next time that I buy a new daily driver, I will give serious consideration to domestic models, I do this every time I buy a new vehicle. If a domestic scores high on quality, has the equipment I need, at a reasonable price, I will buy it. If not, then my money will go elsewhere. It's that simple.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. I got a lot of problems with these reports, except...

for the recall numbers, which can't be easily fudged.

Consumer surveys are complete bullshit as far as I can see, because there's no real control, even statistical, on what they're talking about.

Just anecdotally, I know one person who complained about how California Toyotas were worse than Japanese ones because she kept getting flat tires on the new California one.

And Mercedes showed up with terrible complaints for a few years because people didn't read the 500 page manual and couldn't figure out all the controls. Mercedes claims 70% of the cars they've ever sold here are still on the road. Beat that, Honda.

Personally, besides my own cars, I spent a few years in the taxi & limo business and know all about how the big Fords can hold up for 16-20 hour days and still run great after 400,000 miles. Try that with a Lexus. But that Focus that Consumer Reports thought was so great was the most recalled car in history-- hope they wrote that AFTER all the problems were fixed.

The big gorilla no one wants to talk about is the maintenance costs of Japanese cars when something does go wrong, or even when it doesn't. A radiator on one Corolla cost twice as much as the one on my Chevy van. Timing belts instead of chains? Thank you Honda and Toyota for telling me to lay out 175-250 bucks every 60,000 miles. And 400 bucks for that little balancing weight on the crankshaft. And having to pull the headers to get a starter in, adding another 150 bucks to the already ridiculous cost for a starter 'cause I didn't have the tools to deal with it myself. Pulling the engine to replace the clutch. And on, and on...

[JCMach1]

24. Maintenance costs for Toyota are exactly opposite here

It's the American and European companies that run into the big bucks.

[DainBramaged]

34. Which Amurkin and European cars do u own?

[JCMach1]

25. Toyota has some quality problems at the moment... there have been a number of reports about this

not just Consumer Reports.

While Toyota has a great and reliable product, the rest of the world has caught-up.

Just check Hyundai's reliability and recall recall record for example...


What is really scare is that China is pushing ahead at lightspeed! They have the price advantage and they are rushing forward on quality.

High quality Chinese small cars under $10,000 are not far off.

[DainBramaged]

35. You can buy a Chevy AVEO (Korean) for $9995

WITH a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.

Oh, can you give us a link as to how good Chinese quality is?

[Locrian]

51. Toyota is scared shitless

>>While Toyota has a great and reliable product, the rest of the world has caught-up.

Ive read info on Toyota's efforts to cut cost. They are finding that they have pretty much topped out on incremental type improvements. But they need to get to like 40% less to compete with China so it is affecting quality as they try to gear up for the "breakthru" type cost reductions.

I guess Karma's a bitch.

[susanna]

174. You are absolutely correct re: China. And it's not gonna be pretty. n/t

[Fierce]

39. It drives me right up the wall when I hear

the whole "quality" argument when people justify their foreign-car purchases. Right up the wall.

[Tesha]

41. Recalls are not necessarily bad

Let me tell you a story about my '96 Dodge Caravan.

It uses an "electronic relay" to switch its radiator fan
on and off. Like many other parts of the Caravan, it was
under-designed: not built for the long run.

Dodge replaced it at least once under the warranty and we
paid for a new one after the warranty expired. Mr. Tesha
re-installed it with heat-sink goop between its hot plate
and the body, hoping to avoid toasting yet another relay.

Shortly thereafter, Dodge finally broke down and recalled
the damned relay.

An earlier recall would have saved two or three previous
replacements, one of which came out of our pocket.

Sure, recalls can be embarrassing, but prompt recalls can
also demonstrate that a car vendor cares about quality and
keeping the customer satisfied.

By the way, how long did Ford wait before they recalled
the famous flaming brake switches? In our neighborhood,
one of those caused an overnight house fire when the
Ford parked in their "garage-under" house caught fire.
Given the choice, I'll bet those folks would have
preferred Ford to have done the recal a little earlier.

Tesha

[DainBramaged]

66. No? Any recall is bad, it means a DEFECTIVE part

and shitty quality, period.

[Tesha]

90. No, it usually means an engineering error.

But I'd rather it be fixed promptly rather than leaving
it unfixed and burning my house down, no?

Tesha

[DainBramaged]

101. So an inferior part is not to blame

Vendor cuts corners, no QC?

Give me a break.

[Tesha]

120. You need a break.

> Give me a break.

You sound like you need a break.


> So an inferior part is not to blame

Inferior/out-of-spec parts are sometimes to blame
but even that could be blamed on the folks who
designed the incoming inspection system/kanban
system/whatever (and, perhaps malfeasant/misfeasant
behavior on the part of the part's OEM).

But a lot of recalls (like heat shields that get
added ex-post-facto, brake light switches that
catch fire due to leaking brake fluid, radiator
fan relays that burn out due to overload, etc.)
are *CLEARLY* and unambiguously engineering
failures.

Tesha

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lectrobyte]

43. Unlike my previous Ford product, that had the computer too close to the engine

and would refuse to run again after being driven on a hot day, at least Toyota seems to be learning and correcting their mistakes. You pays your money and you take your chances, and I've had "broken off in me" with both GM and Ford.

[in_cog_ni_to]

45. Back in the late 70s ? early 80s? We bought a brand new Jeep with the soft top. We bought it because

they made a Hard top that year for the winter plus, we loved camping and driving in the mountains and the jeep was pefect for us. However, every time it got WET...rain, snow, sleet, water puddles...you name it, the damn thing wouldn't run! A jeep that can't get wet? :rofl: That thing was in the shop more than on the road. Needless to say, it's the last Amurkin car I've ever owned. I had a Toyota Celica..1987 which I drove for 10 years and not ONCE had a repair done on it. Not once in TEN YEARS. Then, traded that in for a pre-owned Toyota 4-Runner. I drove that for 4 years and never once had a repair done on it, but it sucked gas like nothing I've ever seen. Traded that in on a pre-owned Jag VDP...piece of shit car. I traded that in on a Toyota Prius last year. I don't expect to be in the repair shop with this car either. Toyota DOES make good cars and is MY choice of make and always will. When people confront me about driving a foreign car...I tell them my Toyota car stories/Jeep story and that tends to leave them with nothing else to say.

[DainBramaged]

69. Let's see. 27 + years ago? And Amurican cars are still junk?

I cannot believe you propagandize like that. ANY intelligent person will realize this is 2007, and you are comparing apples to pineapples.

Amazing. :eyes: :wtf: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. Well, since I will never own another Amurkin car...I wouldn't know.

I don't intend to find out either. That's an EXPENSIVE lesson to learn. Cars aren't cheap in PRICE anymore. There's nothing worse than having to take your damn car to the repair shop on a weekly basis. It's a pain in the ass and tends to drain the pocketbook. I'll stick with what runs and works.

on edit..I forgot to add: My Prius uses 11 gallons of gas per MONTH. I spend $22.00 a MONTH on gas and ZERO EMISSIONS. How much gas does your vehicle use? and pollute the air?

[DainBramaged]

77. Show me an example of taking your car to the shop weekly?

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. My JEEP was in the shop any time it got WET. That's just ridiculous.

A JEEP of all things. It's SUPPOSE to get wet and dirty. Not MY Jeep. It was a piece of crap and BRAND NEW.

[DainBramaged]

82. How many years ago?

Nice job

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. Who CARES? Only YOU care. It was MY MONEY I had to pay for repairs...not YOURS.

It was MY time wasted taking it to the shop for repairs, not YOURS.

Nice job. It's not my fault they build shit cars.

[DainBramaged]

96. How many years ago, refresh our memories

You hold a grudge don't you?

[DainBramaged]

100. We're talking a GENERATION ago

Jesus, you'd be a great spokesman for the anti-Proctor and Gamble crowd, never forgive, always hate ALL domestic cars for ONE bad experience.

[DainBramaged]

68. SO Ford, Chrysler and GM are not?

[ileus]

49. the local GM dealer can't give their junk away.

The wife and I went down to check out because they were offering 15k trade and 0%. With a little over 10k we could pay off our Ford and have a new 07. We couldn't find anything but the Tahoe and Silverado worth buying.

[DainBramaged]

70. So they are junk? Nice story. To bad you're upside down on your trade.

Maybe THAT's why, they couldn't get the payments to your satisfaction?

[CabalPowered]

52. It's funny how these things get interpreted

Toyota has swift mechanisms in place to deal with faulty equipment. If they find a problem, their teams are out investigating it. If they find fault, they issue the recall. In comparison, consider the Firestone/Ford problem. Ford dragged their knuckles until they were bloody with losses. Ford and GM do not typically issue recalls voluntarily and and the ones they do are mandated by the Feds. Whereas Toyota initiates recall voluntarily and swiftly. The welding problem that was in the late 05' and 06' Priuses was found, alerted and recalled in less than two months. I'd much rather have a car company looking to recall than one that is trying to avoid recall. There's an excellent Business Week article last fall regarding Toyota's quality response system.

[ileus]

54. I was told to wait for a recall by GM once...

On a turn signal issue with our Alero. "We'll have to charge you when next month a recall will be issued" three months later that GM junk heap was history and so is any hope the USA has of selling us another "car" a pickup or SUV maybe but never a car. My 94 honda will out last any GM car that will roll off the lot today.

[DainBramaged]

73. Happy for you, too bad we don't hve specifics.

[lectrobyte]

55. Exactly. Ford had a problem with their underhood computers for

something like ten years and never admitted it until after they had changed the design. I'd rather have a Toyota with a recall for a problem I didn't know I had than to suffer with a pickup that may or may not restart after being driven on a hot day with no resolution.

[DainBramaged]

71. Completely wrong

One example. 98 to 2003 Silverados/GMC pickups had the tailgate cables begin to rust due to poor corrosion dipping by the original parts vendor. Gm VOLUNTARILY replaced MILLIONS.

So I guess Toyota would have done it better?

[CabalPowered]

94. Ya and my father's Aviator has had some switching solenoid in the

transmission replaced twice. It has less than 30k on it. Dealer keeps telling him that it's going to be recalled. Hasn't happened yet.

[DainBramaged]

99. WAIT, so you DON'T drive?

[CabalPowered]

103. Actually I own a 94' Toyota T100 with 160K miles on it

A 05' Prius with 60k on it. And my company owns a 03' Sequoia. I love em all.

:hi:

[DainBramaged]

116. Good, for you. I hope you kiss them goodnight.

[CabalPowered]

119. I will but are you going to address the Aviator problem?

Kinda skipped that.

[DainBramaged]

121. I don't work for Ford, and why don't you ask Dad what's going on.

[CabalPowered]

138. My bad. As far as the Aviator. I don't really give a hoot.

I told him to buy a Subaru.

So you just used the Aviator info to question my maturity? :eyes:

[lectrobyte]

56. Toyota is on track to pass General Motors this year as the world's No. 1 auto company.

Love that quote by Lutz. You think?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17437402/site/newsweek/

March 12, 2007 - General Motors and Toyota were once neck-and-neck when it came to developing high-mileage gasoline-electric hybrid cars. About a decade ago, you see, both firms had cracked the code on how to engineer a hybrid, and GM even had a running prototype. But the new technology was so costly that the automakers would have had to initially sell hybrids at a loss to build a market for them. The differing paths the two companies took symbolize why Toyota has become wildly profitable in the United States while GM has been losing its shirt in its home market. And why Toyota, riding GM's bumper, is likely to pass it this year to become the world's biggest car company.

To GM, selling hybrids at a loss didn't make business sense. So it took a pass. To Toyota, hybrids looked like a reasonable bet on the future. It developed the Prius, selling it at a loss for years (by all accounts except its own). Today, the Prius is eking out a small profit for Toyota in the United States. Vastly more important, it's the hottest hybrid on the market and provides a halo for Toyota, making it appear to be the world's greenest carmaker even as it rolls out gas-guzzling trucks. GM, meanwhile, is playing catch-up and defending itself from allegations that its Hummer SUV melts the planet. "We made a bad decision," GM vice chairman Bob Lutz now says. "Being known as the technology laggard is not conducive to selling automobiles."

[DainBramaged]

74. That was in the letter (OP) I guess you needed to show us you use Google?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Our '91 and '94 Toyotas haven't been recalled.

They'll probably outlive us. Paid $5000 for the '91 Tercel new. Paid $13,000 for the 4wd pickup new. I would loosely estimate that the total cost of repairs for both isn't in excess of $1000 other than general maintenance.

They're the best cars either my wife or I have ever owned. And, between us, we've owned a lot of cars. American, Brit, Italian, German, and Japanese.

Of course, they're both "bottom of the line" without all the gizmos, gadgets, and shiney toys, that tend to break.

Both of us have the quaint notion that automobiles are for transportation.

[DainBramaged]

76. They don't recall antiques

Happy for you. My Mom had a '84 Ford Focus till she gave up her license a couple of years ago.

She didn't think an '87 year old woman could really drive any more.

Except for regular maintenance and a water pump, the car gave her i's all for 21 years. No rust, no rot, no problems. We gave it to a local kid for his first car. Last I heard, it's still running.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

86. They don't need to.

I gave up on American cars back in the '70s. The one good Ford I ever owned (out of 3) was a Ford Courier - made by Mazda.

[DainBramaged]

98. In the 70's, so sad too bad. Long time to hold a grudge.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

107. No grudge. Just a lesson learned.

Toyota makes better cars than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Triumph, Fiat, Renault, VW, Jaguar. Even marginally better than Honda & Mazda. All of which I've owned.

[DainBramaged]

113. YOU HAVEN'T OWNED ONE IN 30 YEARS

You have no clue since you haven't OWNED a modern American car. And especially one made by the old Chrysler.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. But, I have friends who have.

Same overpriced junk, different decades.

[DainBramaged]

118. Hearsay, bullshit, no personal experience

You have no dog in this fight, period.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

124. What fight? Hearsay? What is this a trial? You a lawyer?

I've owned American cars. I've talked to people who own American cars.

Have you owned a Toyota? If American cars are better than, or as good as, Toyotas, why does most of the world by them rather than the Big Three?

But, keep buying them. Looks like you're going to have a helluva time convincing most people to follow your lead.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. You've owned dozens of American cars?

Doesn't that sort of imply there's something wrong with them?

[uppityperson]

132. Not necessarily.

I could imply that poster just likes that new american car smell. Or that they collect them. Or they pass them on by giving them away or selling them as soon as the newness wears off and they start developing problems, or right before they develop problems. Oh. Right.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

151. Car(s). Plural.

I concede that I haven't "owned dozens of American cars", the few that I have owned were enough to convince me of their "quality".

Maybe you should open your mind a bit and try a Japanese made car and compare the experience with your experiences with American made cars. I have.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. Wow, that's some stick you've got up your butt.

Roger Simmermaker, eh?

Isn't that guy involved in the "America First" Party? You know, pro-life, Bible's in schools, white supremacy, that kind of thing?

[DainBramaged]

78. Not to my knowledge, Google him, I did

http://www.throwthebumsout.com/

Can I ask a question? If he is CONCERNED about buying American, are you afraid of him? Do you drive? Own a car?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. I couldn't care less what the guy had to say.

...as he's completely full of shit.

As for myself, I drive a Camry. It's a wonderful piece of craftsmanship, and I'll be buying Toyota again.

[lectrobyte]

91. Classy and persuasive. You'll get a lot of cutomers for GM with that

attitude! Keep up the good work!

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. Who gives a shit? You, apparently.

Personally, my Camry was built by American workers. Was your car built in Mexico?

[DainBramaged]

108. Alabama

You like yur Camary, it's STILL a JAPANESE car.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. Ah, and I guess yours is a Confederate car.

Buy Union.

:thumbsup:

[DainBramaged]

110. You need to be ignored, goodbye

Idon't like to be baited. And that is what you are trying to do.

[lectrobyte]

123. Hater? Sorry, you have me confused with someone else. I loved GM,

but after 30 years or so, we had one little problem and they basically told me they didn't care if I ever bought another car from them or not, so I took them up on that deal. Trade balance? Yawn. But at least with my 62MPG Prius, I'm cutting down on the amount of petroleum imported.

[DainBramaged]

127. 30 yars is a long time to hate and hold a grudge

And a lot of generations of cars.

Who are you kidding?

[lectrobyte]

129. You misread. I was a GM customer for 30 years.

[DainBramaged]

144. Let me repeat myself

Those of you who own Foreign iron will NEVER buy American, and could care less about buying American or Union labor.

[uppityperson]

147. Broadbrush much?

[DainBramaged]

148. Ok, we're done

Goodbye I'm clicking the x. I just don't like you anymore..

[uppityperson]

149. When you get challenged on a broadbrush, you react by ignoring.

Whatever.

[ComerPerro]

153. beat off?

[BuyingThyme]

67. Well, unless the paint starts falling off all Toyotas,

these numbers mean nothing.

[taught_me_patience]

80. My last american car I owned was 3 years ago

It sucked big time. It was a 2001 Crown Vic.

1) There were 8 coil packs. In the 1.5 years I owned the car, I had to replace 4 of them.
2) Rear axle seals leaked. Why is Ford still using a single rear axle? Have they not figured out that independent rear suspension is much better? Or are they too cheap to upgrade their suspensions?
3) The V8 had only 220 hp. This sucks. Most Japanese V6's get that amount of horsepower because they use dual overhead cams with variable valve timing. Why can Ford not put DOHC into their V8s? Why are they using a pushrod technology that is essentially 40 years old now?
4) Resale value was abomidable. This is the #1 problem w/american cars. This is a 27k car new. I bought it 4 years old for 7k!! When I sold it 1.5 years later, I could only get 3k for it.
5) Gas mileage was abissmal. I got 17mpg Highway miles. I attribute this to a lack of variable valve timing and SOHC technology of the engine.

Its too bad because I loved the way the car rode. I'd love to support American manufacturing as much as possible, but if they continue to make inferior products, I'll have to buy the Japanese alternative.


taught.

[Catherine Vincent]

81. Hopefully I won't get a recall....I just love my new camry. :)

[LSK]

84. 1st of all, I have owned GM cars my whole life and

and I used to be a diehard buy American guy.

HOWEVER, I believe the war has been lost. There no longer are US Automotive Manufacturers or Japanese or German manufacturers. It is a global economy and these CORPORATIONS do business in hundreds of countries worldwide and are owned by people from many different countries.

NAFTA pretty much killed the "buy American cars" deal because GM makes cars all over the world and sends them all over the world.

How about that All-American Camaro? Made in Canada until they killed it.

The GTO? Isnt that an Australian import aka the Holden?

And let us not forget that GM and Ford are trying to back out of promises they made to their retirees and their workers regarding pensions and are laying off American workers. These are also the companies that are partially responsible for Global Warming as their bread and butter in the 90s were SUVs and Pickups.

I owe no allegiance to GM or Ford anymore. They are simply Corporations who are slow to do anything about Global Warming (Who killed the electric car?) and profits for their shareholders (who might be anywhere in the world) are the #1 priority.

Yes, I used to be a buy American guy but I woke up and stopped drinking the kool-aide.

ps: My next car might be a Jeep Patriot because I like to go off roading and its the only small SUV that has real 4x4 capability and gets over 20mpg.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughBeaumont]

133. My Cavalier is past 224,000 miles. Same engine, same clutch.

The wife's Sentra needed frequent brake and muffler replacements, the entire exhaust system replaced twice, the clutch replaced twice, most of the steering system (tie rods, rack and pinion, etc) replaced . . . all before we got rid of it at 150k.

:hide:

[DainBramaged]

142. My daughter wanted a Cavalier, she believes in buy American

Found a 99 with ONLY 69k on it, Changed the plugs, flushed the motor and trans, put mags on it, K&N air filter, strut braces, new tires, driving like a happy camper, gets her almost 29 mies combined. Drove in the blizzard Friday to a club 45 miles away and drove home, DOZENS o cars on the side of route 80 both ways.

[uppityperson]

136. After my Ford Tempo burnt itself up I turned to Subarus and Toyotas.

But then I consider myself a World Citizen also. The pyro car was a nice car, until it started trying to burn itself up. The stuck brake melting the fake hubcap didn't quite catch the car on fire. It took a shorting out light switch to do that. It was a nice little car, but ended up with a melted dash and liner and was a mess. They recalled the 1 yrs Tempos for the same problem, guess it hadn't caught up to mine yet then. Now I drive Subarus and Toyotas, both well used and maintained and am happy.

[gollygee]

152. I currently have my first Toyota

It was made in Indiana, so it's owned by a Japanese company but it is an American-made car. Hmm well it was assembled in Indiana but I suppose parts were probably made here and there. Of course, that's true of cars made by American-owned companies too.

My Ford Taurus was OK but it really started falling apart around 100k miles.

My husband's Silverado held together longer but he had to get a new engine and a new transmission.

My husband now has a GMC Sienna and that's needed a new transmission too.

Before the Taurus, I had a Tempo, and the engine threw a rod.

Before that, I had an Escort (my first car!) and some idiot ran a red light and pulled out in front of me. Not Ford's fault! It did surprisingly well driving in the winter.

The Toyota is new - exactly 3333 miles on it I noticed today! So I have no comments on its quality as of yet.

Once upon a time, virtually everyone here owned American cars, but now I bet most cars are not American. It used to be a big peer-pressure kind of thing. Like I remember my dad talking to this guy and as we were going he made some comment about how he drove a foreign car, like that proved he was an ass or something. My dad has been shopping for a Corolla so I guess he's over that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

154. Reading through all of this thread, I just have to shake my head.

I don't particularly have anything against American cars. I've never owned one personally, but I've driven quite a few of them extensively. I certainly wouldn't let a car's country of origin dictate my purcase decision in any way. That seems silly. As I said above, I've never owned an American car. This was not some premeditated scheme to deprive loyal Americans of their jobs I assure you. However, I will say that to date, I have not driven an American car which I would buy. I've also driven quite a few European and Japanese cars that I wouldn't buy either. Again, country of origin has little to do with it for me. A car either meets my requirements or it doesn't. That determines my purchasing decision.

As for DainBramage, I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with your posts in this thread, other than starting a flame war. It's a fucking car. It's a very personal thing. People will buy the one they like - the one that meets their requirements, and the one that they enjoy most. Depending on the person, they might be brand loyal because of previous purchases. Deal with it.

[DainBramaged]

159. No, I won't deal with it, who are you to say that to me?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

160. You can choose to deal with it or not.

But the reality remains the same. You can recognize it or not. It's up to you. However, since you seem to be highly critical of nearly everyone in this thread, it might be useful for you to lay out your position on this issue succinctly, as opposed to arguing what appears to be the same ill-defined point with about ten different people in this thread. Just a thought.

[DainBramaged]

170. Yabba daaba doo, I'm not answering you goodbye

[ComerPerro]

155. I am reminded of Fight Club... and its take on recalls

A new car built by my company leave somewhere traveling at 60 miles per hour. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field (A) multiply it by the probable rate of failure (B) then multiply the result by the average out of court settlement (C). A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of the recall, we don't do one.

[uppityperson]

157. What is an American car? (report on what is made where)

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/which-companies-make-the-best-cars/what-is-an-american-car/0407best_glo.htm

You might expect that a vehicle that says “Ford” on the hood would be made in the U.S. But if that Ford were a Fusion, you would be wrong. It is built in Ford’s factory in Hermosillo, Mexico. Ford isn’t the only one. Only 35 percent of the parts in the Chrysler PT Cruiser, built in Mexico, come from the U.S.

The headquarters of DaimlerChrysler is in Germany. Transoceanic tie-ups are more the norm than the exception. Nissan is controlled by the French company Renault. Volvo, Jaguar, and Land Rover are owned by Ford, though at least the cars are still made in the countries where their nameplates were first stamped.

General Motors owns part of Suzuki and all that remains of the Korean automaker Daewoo. The Chevrolet Aveo is imported from South Korea, and only 4 percent of its parts come from the U.S.
BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, and Toyota all build vehicles in the U.S. Combined, they produce more than a third as many vehicles in the U.S. as do the Big Three. Many of the parts for those vehicles still come from overseas.

By law, every new vehicle sold in the U.S. has to have a window sticker that states what percent of its components are domestically produced. Parts made by suppliers account for about 70 percent of the cost of a vehicle, says James Rubenstein, an automotive analyst at Miami University, in Oxford, Ohio. As much as 80 percent of the U.S.-built Toyota Camry comes from the U.S. That compares with only 30 percent of the parts of the “American” Ford Fusion. Still, across their lineups, Rubenstein says, American companies build a lot more of their cars, and parts, domestically...(much more@ link, charts showing what was built where)

[susanna]

175. Just a heads up on that chart:

In the Canada and Mexico graphs, they show headings of Import and U.S. Models and a list of the associated nameplates.

In the U.S. graph, they only show the Imports heading with a list, but they do not show the huge list of U.S. Models. They should have balanced it out with both sections, IMHO. As it is, someone not paying close attention will think that the domestics build nothing here, which is untrue.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The empressof all]

176. Locking

Jeeze....what a flaming mess. It's ending here.