Is it okay to use the N word and the F word (faggot) if it's done in a playful/non-hateful manner?

[cboy4]

It's no secret **some** Black/African-Americans casually use the N word while referring to other members of their race -- just as **some** gays and lesbians use the F word (fag/faggot) word in the same manner.

I'm curious.

Do you think this is inappropriate behavior since these words are used as slurs by bigots?

Or do you think these minority groups should have license to use these words freely?

Or do you think it depends?

I'm not trying to turn this into an angry thread.

I'm just trying to figure out, actually, if people think the F word is less offensive than the N word or vice versa.

[FLAprogressive]

1. Completely depends on the context.

If it's among friends.....I think it's appropriate (just like queer is)....but if it's used pejoratively it isn't.

[mwooldri]

19. Agreed.

I have a good friend from University days and we rib on each other nationalities still - he's Scottish; I'm English. It wouldn't be appropriate to talk about Scottish Bastards in general or about someone I don't know about. But to him... I can get away with it because I know I'm going to get some equally bit fat insult back at me (usually ignorant wanker). It's OK because it's us.

It's therefore alright across boundaries - if I had a friend who happened to be black or homosexual and I was on the same terms as I am with my friend from uni, then I'd have license to call that guy a N or a F or a Q or whatever, because I'm going to get called a H or a G or a .... (insert something insulting to straight white males).

And it's only good for PRIVATE conversation.

Mark.

[qwlauren35]

83. Okay. I can go with that. IN COMPLETE PRIVACY.

If two people have the kind of relationship in which they can say such things to each other, then they should be able to do so and not think twice about it.

I just don't want to hear it.

And therefore, I would think that 3's a crowd, and unless you absolutely positively know that every single person who can hear you is okay with it... then please don't say it.

[Stinky The Clown]

2. People should be able to use any words they wish. Even ugly ones.

To answer any other way would be to suggest a form or censorship.

But ..... just as someone is free to use the word, those who oppose such use are just as free to let the person know they're offensive .... or hateful ..... or inciteful ...... or just plain hurtful.

[cboy4]

4. I'm not sure if you're blackt, but if you're not ... you

really think you should be able to use the N-word?

I'm white, but I have black friends who playfully call me "Ni*ga" sometimes.

"Hey my Ni*ga, what's up bud?"

I just can't in a million years fathom using that word, or the more formal/traditional (or whatever you want to call it) in kind.

I feel as a white person, that word is off limits to me.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Your question shoudo have been answered by the final paragraph of my response.

I oppose censorship of all kinds.

It does not follow that I endorse the use of ugly, hateful words.

My race is of no consequence.

[cboy4]

18. Yikes. So you approve of speech that could prompt

violence/civil unrest/danger?

Schenck v. United States in 1919, imposed restrictions on the first amendment (No shouting fire in a crowded theater).

Interesting you feel there should not be exceptions.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Do you work at being dense or does it come naturally to you?

:eyes:

I am aware of the 'fire' restriction. There is a common good issue there. To yell it in a crowded theater is to risk inciting a panic or a riot.

If 'stupid' were a word with impact similar to the two words you ask about and I called you stupid, I would not be inciting anything but your ire.

I do not endorse doing that.

[cboy4]

40. Says the person who would lose in three seconds on the

show, "Are you smarter than a 5th grader."

Reading comprehension is your friend Einstein.

I asked you why you don't support limitations on free speech .. especially if it's hate speak.

You said you have no problem with people throwing around the N-word because it would be censorship to oppose it. Jesus.

If you want to answer why you love hearing the the N-word, that's up to you.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. "why you love hearing the the N-word, that's up to you"

Fuck you.

Clearly you had an answer before you asked your question.

Bite me.

[cboy4]

45. Well you clearly don't have a problem with it....You've yet

to condemn it.

There's still time to redeem yourself.

[Stinky The Clown]

47. Okay, you're on your own.

You're now having a monologue.

[Hanse]

3. In my personal opinion...

it's not my role, as a white person, to tell black people whether or not they can use the word "nigger" in any given context. The same standard would apply to gay people.

And then there's literary license. Whether you're Mark Twain or Trick Daddy, I haven't got a problem if it's used for artistic purposes.

[rockymountaindem]

5. I can never decide

I kind of go back and forth when it comes to those types of words about Jews, since I am one. On the one hand, it's obviously offensive for a non-Jew to use the words "Heeb" and "Yid" etc. On the other hand, I can sort of see where it might be okay for them to be used in some circumstances. Sometimes I refer to other Jews, such as on television, as a "fellow Hebrew" when I talk about them with my friends. To me, that's just sort of an endearing way to put it since we're in the same religio-cultural club. I don't mean anything by it. Likewise, "Yid" is just the Yiddish word for "Jew". Essentially, it's a word that generations of Yiddish speakers could have used to refer to themselves. So, I've often wondered what it would be like if we modern Jews ever tried to "reclaim it".

On the other hand, I think if I ever heard a Jew refer to me or any other as a kike, I'd want to slap them upside the head. I can see those other words working both ways in a similar manner with some people. So ultimately, I think it's up to each individual to decide what words they're comfortable using in certain circumstances. I mean, if someone goes around in the general public bandying about racial slurs, I'm of the mind that such behavior says more about that person than it does about the people he/she is talking about.

[EFerrari]

6. Isn't this an "insiders make the rules for their group" kind of thing?

[gollygee]

8. That's always been my feeling

Or more specifically "I'm not comfortable with it, but black people don't need a middle-aged white woman telling them what to do as far as this goes."

[EFerrari]

12. LOL!

Exactly. :)

[cboy4]

9. Well my opinion is minorities should be free to use certain

words that others (i.e. straight whites) should not.

[EFerrari]

15. The same is true for all groups, imho. Some things kin can say what no one else should.

I have fights with my family but watch out, outsider, if you take that tone with my Momma. :)

/damn

[brendan120678]

69. So you're saying that you are in favor of...

limiting Constitutional rights based on something like a person's gender, race or sexual orientation?

Aren't you supposed to be a liberal?

[gollygee]

72. Did he say something about laws?

I thought the thread was more about whether it was an ethical choice or not. Not whether there should be a law.

[marmar]

10. I get the empowerment aspect of it - taking a negative and turning it around.....

..... but I personally don't like it. I just don't use the N-word, but I know more than a few fellow African Americans who do, jokingly and lovingly I suppose, but they use it.
Similarly, I was walking around Ann Arbor the other day with a friend who is gay, and he constanly says "silly f*gg*t" and other phrases to describe people. In a way, it makes me feel good because it's a measure of his trust in me and comfort with using a term he'd typically use only around "family", but I'd never feel comfortable saying it with him.
But I don't begrudge those who use the terms. I'm chronically PC and I know it.

[cboy4]

24. I'm gay, and to be honest, I actually don't really use the F

word very often.

I'm more apt to use it in anger when describing, say, a Log Cabin Republican ... "You dumb ass faggot motherfucker." HA

Otherwise, eh, I don't use much. Definitely "homo" more than "faggot"

[camera obscura]

11. It's a bit like Potter Stewart's famous quote: I can't define it, but I know it when I see/hear it.

Sometimes a slur can be used in the community appropriately.

Sometimes it's gratuitous and unwarranted.

Sometimes it can be used in a joke, turned around in its meaning, or mocking homophobes and racists.

Sometimes people just use those words and claim it's a joke and they're being "politically incorrect".

Ultimately you could spend all day coming up with times when it's appropriate and exceptions to the rule but... for now I generally go with my gut.

[Deja Q]

13. Context.

Some comedians use it to send up or play against stereotypes; that's when it's funny. And it's not an easy task to accomplish, particularly because of historical context and stigma. Chris Rock often used it in his ~2000 HBO show. I also recall a movie from the late 1990s starring Will Smith, he and a friend walked into a room and said in a casual voice "Don't be alarmed, we're negros!" The context set the stage for a line that would otherwise be self-effacing for the sake of being self-effacing, which rarely works with any linguistics - never mind controversial words.

No, playing into stereotypes or sending up stereotypes is when it seems to work the best. And even then, it's still a fine line; some skits and routines don't work and it's a struggle to watch.

Some comedians just say the word in an exaggerated tone of voice and think that's all that's needed.

[pipi_k]

14. Aside from those words, which I think

shouldn't be used by anybody, but that's just me, there's also the matter of when girls/women use the word "bitch" toward each other, apparently in a playful manner.


Maybe it's because I'm older, maybe it's because I've been called that name (and worse) in anger by nasty people, but I honestly do NOT understand the appeal of people using certain words with or toward each other, even in an alleged "playful" way.

I dunno...to me it just seems sort of passive aggressive to do that, not to mention rather disrespectful.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. They're only words -

they have as much power as we choose to give them.

That's a hard one to internalize, I know.

But they are only words.

It's us, how we process them, how we react to them, the weight we choose to give them.

They're only words.

[misanthrope]

20. Words are the most powerful things we have...

...they are symbols of thought and concept.

They have moved armies, saved untold lives and sent millions to their deaths. They have created compassion and rebuke, love and hatred.

Please don't denigrate the importance of language.

And you had to know this next part was coming...Just words?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. As a lawyer, a novelist, and an essayist,

I have a fairly good working definition of what words are. So please don't be simple and try to lecture.

Just words, that's right. Now try to go one level deeper and consider the role we, as individuals, play in determining the value of those words.

You might hurt yourself if you try this, but it'll be in the service of a higher ideal.

[misanthrope]

84. Umbrage and indignation are like Dodge City six-shooters in this place, arent' they?**nm

**

[mondo joe]

17. I'm just going to say I believe in consistency.

I think if anyone uses the words, it ought to be okay for anyone to use it.

I don't use either.

[Uzybone]

21. Both should refrain from using it

but they are just words in the end. I really can't get worked up over rap music or 2 buddies using the work nigger or 2 homosexuals jokingly calling themselves faggots.

At the end of the day, people have the right to use whatever words they wish. We can judge their character based on how they use those words.

[msongs]

23. seems like it's ok for you to spell out the F word but NOT the N word. does that show YOUR bias? nt

[cboy4]

26. Since I'm white, I would never use the N-word or spell out the

N-word.

Since I'm gay, I don't have a problem with **myself** using it.

Could you not figure that out on your own msongs?

[bluedawg12]

25. Both have a negative connotation, so I'd don't use them.

[Lilith Velkor]

27. Not for me, but I use the D word sometimes

and, every once in a while, the C bomb.

[Roon]

28. Come along little faggot white boy..

Look, Look, Look, for some kind of joy.

Violent Femmes lyric. And I know for a fact that they respect their gay fans. They have done charitable shows for aids and even change their lyrics around to apply to the gay community.

[cboy4]

31. Oh, for a second, I thought you were taking me somewhere.

HA

[Roon]

36. Where do you want to go, babe?

[orleans]

29. check this out

i was amazed when i found this--it's from a tv show that was on in 1969--it was put together by the people who did the smother's brothers comedy hour, but this "music scene" was canceled after 16 weeks because it was up against popular gunsmoke and laugh-in.

this is a clip from the show (almost 9 minutes) of sly and the family stone. they do a compilation of their hits--however, there is one song i don't remember and i was really surprised to see that it actually made it on tv (i don't know what the title of the song is)

scooch it up to 5:25, the lyrics: "don't call me nigger... whitey! don't call me whitey... nigger!" and repeat several times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDF7d_hzF1U

better yet, watch the entire video--it's really good.
and this was a fun one too--(3 dog night, eli's coming w/lily tomlin)from "music scene":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qq_gqjXX8Y

[metapunditedgy]

30. It's a question of social standards, which are variable and situation-dependent.

That's why it's hard to say whether it's "right" or "wrong."

[leftofthedial]

32. as I understand it,

only if you ARE a nigger or a faggot, or rather someone who might be playfully called "nigger" or "faggot" in return.

[mitchum]

77. LMAO!

well done :)

[Edweird]

34. It depends on your audience.

[BlooInBloo]

35. (shrug) Go for it.

EDIT: It just bugs white folks so fucking much that they're "not allowed" to say "nigger". Fucking go for it. Have a fucking field day.

[cboy4]

46. Well it sure seems that way per this thread, even though I

won't say it.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. In group solidarity.

I look at this from a linguistic point of view. There is a feature, called "in-group solidarity," which 'allows' for members of a target group to use words or descriptions that would not be allowed or desired by non-members of said group. When I was fist exposed to this concept, the example used was not with a "diversity" group, but with another type of group: family. I may call my mother a "bitch," jokingly or otherwise, but someone in my family would be best advised not to say that about my mother. This concept spreads out into groups where the speaker is also a member, in my case, gay, Jewish, Southern, among others.

I have found that African-Americans rarely use the word "nigger," unless they are using it as an insult. The more oft used word is the BEV dialectal version, "nigga." Though, the use of the latter can still get a non-AA in trouble. For someone who doesn't fall into the target group (AA) to use this word, in essence, requires two things, permission from those in the target group who are in proximity to the speaker and location. One's buds may 'approve' of the speaker using the word on occasion, but even their permission won't do much good in the middle of, let's say, a predominately AA bar.

It is similar in the gay community, at in my experience, to the use of the words "fag" and "faggot." Though words like "queer" and "queen" are more likely used and accepted within group, and even from "outsiders," the other two words carry very different meanings. "Fag" is usually used among friends, and even jokingly among gay strangers (as long as both speakers know the other is gay). "Fag hag" is one of the more common usages of the word and doesn't even describe a gay person, though I prefer the term "queer dear." Those people, by invitation, can generally use the words "queer" and "fag" with little recourse. "Faggot," on the other hand, IMO, is generally a put-down every time, no matter the sexual orientation of the speaker. It may occasionally be used in jest, but most seem to avoid it and go for the shortened version. Another pit-fall is the use along "sex" lines. A lesbian using the word "fag" may find herself in hot water, just as would a gay man using the word "dyke." This phenomena may be because there are actually two speaker groups, sexual orientation and sex. There are various rules regarding this, but I doubt anyone really wants to hear the entire breakdown.

In conclusion, using any word which one may find offensive, it is best to exercise caution out of respect for the audience and one's self.

[cwydro]

38. I work with several young black men who use that word

regularly to each other...and I do NOT like it.

I have made myself clear on that point. I am in a management position and find it difficult to deal with this n talk between the young guys. I have told them why I hate it and I don't think they care. These are 20 t0 30-somethings.

I also do not like to hear gay slurs, but funnily enough, I NEVER hear them; all of us gay folks where I work never use them to ourselves or about ourselves.

I would say there are equal numbers of gay and black people where I work.

[BlooInBloo]

41. Wow. I hear gay folks call each other "fag", "queen", and worse (as it were)...

all the time. Not totally unlike (but not totally like, either) the manner in which lots of black folks will toss "nigga" back and forth.

In any case, the #1 - by far - scenario in which I hear "fag" and its variants is white hick bars.

But every good white person knows it's really the black folks that are the problem.

You did make me laugh, though - at the very idea that it's surprising or distressing that black folks don't care much what white folks think about the way black folks use language. Truly the mother of all ironies.

[cwydro]

51. I think you took my post wrong.

I don't think "black folks are the problem".

It actually does not matter if they "care" what I think. At work it is inappropriate to use that word. Period. I have made that clear to them. I cannot have one rule for blacks and one rule for whites.

We have actually all sat down and talked about it and they clearly see the double standard. Many are too young to realize the weight that word carries for those of us who are older.

It does bother me that people use slurs to each other in any way. I think it diminishes those using it.

[ACTION BASTARD]

39. N word I can't imagine saying it in any context. However, faggot

amongst my group of friends/age bracket is used as an insult for foolish, inept or juvenile behavior. Using it against a gay person is a no-no.

If they want to use with each other that's their business.

[SmileyRose]

42. I believe in free speech.

Now, if someone chooses to exercise their free speech, calls a group of college women "nappy headed hos" on the national airwaves and gets shitcanned by their employer as unfit for human consumption, then oh well. Free speech doesn't promise no consequences. "I have a dream" had consequences. Good ones.

I'd also like to say that IMHO you are all wrong when you said - "Do you think this is inappropriate behavior since these words are used as slurs by bigots?" - IMHO "words" are not "behavior".

[cboy4]

56. What the hell is wrong with all of you people who justify

the use of slurs because you believe in free speech?

Arguing that words are not the problem is justifying unacceptable behavior.

[cwydro]

64. Thank you for that post.

Completely agree.

[SmileyRose]

70. Oh words can certainly be a problem

I'm saying censoring speech is a problem too. Racist shitbags and bigots who make themselves known verbally generally get dealt with by American society. Not always, must generally. I'm the first one to tell someone who wants to associate with me and goes the shitbag route that some verbage will not be tolerated in my presence. If they are going to speak that way then I will have to be somewhere else. I quit a job once because the boss decided slurs were an acceptable way to refer to certain customers when they were not present.

I am hardly justifying anything but seriously, who am I to tell John McCain he can't call women the C word? Personally, I'm grateful that he did so we all know he's a jackass right up front. What I will put up with in my own sphere of associations and what I want to mandate for everyone everywhere is a whole other thing.

[RedCappedBandit]

43. It's the intent, not the word. IMO

However, regardless of intent, there are people who would be offended. It's a tricky situation. I am guilty of using inappropriate language with people around whom I should have been more careful, and it makes me feel like shit. :shrug:

[Lil Missy]

48. It's all about context, of course. And like you said, the "non-hateful manner".

Blacks can and do call each other the N word. But as a white woman, I would never presume to share that level of identification or personal familiarity.

Similar situation with gays. We can refer to each other (in terms that I will not elaborate upon), because we can identify personally. But it wouldn't feel the same if straight people used the same terms.

I think, in both cases, it's about taking the "sting" out of certain terms, and owning them so they can't be used against us.

It's kinda like getting pissed off with a brother or sister over something and having angry words. And then you piss and moan to others to blow off steam. The difference is, you still love your brother or sister, even though you are pissed.

So, if anyone else trashes your brother or sister, them are fightin' words! I can complain about my "family", but you can't! LOL! Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but that's the way it is.

[davidthegnome]

49. I think it depends on the situation

My best friend moved to Ohio back when I was in the seventh grade. Big kid (as in tall and strong), tough, had a rough life. A few black kids were harassing him on his way home from school one day in Cleaveland, I don't remember why, but basically calling him white trash, honkey, etc. He responed by using the n word, just before it turned into an all out brawl when they jumped him for it.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say he was justified in doing so - but I think he was justified to return the insult, in any event, I don't judge him poorly for it. He is not, and never was racist, it was more of a personal thing than a race issue.

I guess a couple of his friends got involved in the fight too, one of them was actually black and on his side. I'm not sure who won, to hear him tell it he kicked all their asses, but I imagine he got his ass kicked too. Mutual ass kicking, great fun.

That said, I hate the rednecks that use the word to refer to any and all black people, so I don't use it myself. Years ago I was, to be frank, an inconsiderate prick and did use the word frequently in reference to gangsters and rappers. I realize what an asshole I was at the time, though I had to get slapped in the face a few times first (both metaphorically and literally). Being a black hating middle class white kid at Jobcorps tends to give one an interesting perspective... and an ass kicking or two.

It makes me think of Richmond, a friend of mine who was maybe 6'5, really built, black and a homosexual. All kinds of people tried to harass him, but never more than once. One of the nicest guys I've ever met, but if anyone gave him shit he'd give it right back. It's because of people like Richmond that I'm not a homosexual hating, black hating, redneck asshole. If not for them I'd be far more stupid and my life would be far poorer.

Anyhow, I wouldn't support making the use of the word/s illegal, I just think it's a matter of common decency to refrain from using them in an insulting way. Also, to refrain from using them in company where you know it will be offensive.

It's hard to say, but morally I think it depends on the situation.

[old mark]

50. In addition to being a raving pro-gun jerk, I am a published poet.

Words are only words, and the context and intention is everything.

I REALLY object to someone else making mighty pronouncements on what I can and can not do in my life, and I find as much of that on the left as I do on the right. Just that the left claims to have better intentions.

You don't have the right to regulate anybody's life but your own and that doesen't work well either.

mark

[cboy4]

53. So being a poetic pro-gun advocate is justification for

using the N-word?

You might need a gun if you say that word or the F word to the wrong person dude.

Words are not only words.

I would argue the only people who are justified to use the N word are black people and the only people to use the faggot word are gay people.

How can you not agree with this?

[Marrah_G]

52. I have no idea

I don't use either word ever and have taught my children not to ever use language such as that. I would never want to be the one to cause someone harm like that even if it was unintentional.

[cboy4]

55. This is why, among many other reasons I'm sure, why you're

such a good mom!

[Marrah_G]

57. aww thanks.

It's been slightly more of a challenge this year with my youngest. He is playing football but has always been socially slow stemming from a childhood illness. When a few players sometimes tease him, calling him gay, he was getting really upset, because he is straight. It's been a challenge to deal with. It's not like I can tell him to say " i'm not gay but so what if I was, there is nothing wrong with it" in that environment it would just make him more of a target. I told him to hang in there, after high school things get better and to let his upper classmen player friends deal with the little jerks.

Kids need to come with manuals.

[cboy4]

59. Oh yea totally .. it's tough enough for a gay kid to proclaim

there's nothing wrong with being gay .. let alone a straight boy like your son.

He has to do what he has to do to just get through high school and then he can start telling people to STFU, like his mom ;) once he gets into college or goes on to the work force and begins to cement and defend his beliefs.

[Marrah_G]

62. We are in a very gay friendly school also

I think it's mostly because they are freshmen boys and haven't yet learned that the upper classmen don't appreciate it ( well most anyway). My daughter and here friends were never hassled for being GBLT, that I know of anyway. There is an active Gay-straight alliance also. I'm hoping next year is alot easier for him. (in comparison this year was far easier then middle school)

[lunatica]

54. In the movie Idiocracy one of the funniest lines

is when the character played by luke Wilson is told he 'sounds like a fag'. The reason it's funny is because he's the only one that talks in complete sentences which are grammatically correct and he he makes them think. And the rest of the characters are the offspring of today's mental midgets. Oops! did I just inadvertently offend midgets?! Maybe I should have said 'today's mentally challenged'. Oops! There I go again! 'Mentally challenged'? I think that surely offends some group.

I'm also not offended by sexist jokes when they're funny and make a good point.

But no cruel or tasteless joke, no matter what the punchline is acceptable to me. If your mental humor acuity is as refined as a sledge hammer just get out of my face. No matter what you say you offend ME.

[LanternWaste]

58. Not for me...

Not for me. And while I fully understand that both words may be used in a non-offensive manner depending on context, group, manner, and circumstance, I myself have chosen (read: "chosen") not to use either one under any circumstance.

While I don't feel that the words fall under the category of "hate speech" intended to incite violence (no more, nor no less than the word "idiot" or "moron" or "fucker" which are bandied about here like so much change in someone's pocket), I do believe that both are uncivil and unwarranted-- reflecting and advertising the class of the speaker rather than the target (and I'd like to think that I have a little bit more class than that...).

[BoneDaddy]

60. Context is everything

and depends on the relationship between people.

I have plenty of friends of mixed ethnic backgrounds and who are women and we playfully joke with one another on gender and ethnicity. I kid my Italian buddies about being a wop and they will call me a dumb drunk mick.

You have to know and respect your audience, but it can certainly be done.

[CTyankee]

61. I don't understand why anyone would WANT to use these words at all!

To me, they are very hateful. But then I've never heard them in the context of playfulness so I have NO frame of reference. I am just so sick of ever hearing them...

[Terran]

63. I think your base assumptions are wrong

It is incorrect that "some" black people casually use the N-word when referring to members of their own group. You're thinking of "nigga", which is a different word with different meanings. Now, having been around a lot of black folks for the last 22 years because my partner is black, I can say I did once hear his 90 year-old grandmother refer to another black person as a "n*gg*r", but that is the ONLY time ever in my experience.

As for "faggot" or "fag", I have never heard any gay person use those words in any but an extremely insulting manner (and I am gay myself). Unless something has really changed, I don't believe these terms have any terms-of-endearment qualities.

[Common Sense Party]

65. Ugly, hurtful words are ugly and hurtful, no matter who says them.

I think both words are offensive.

[DS1]

66. I sometimes use them in jest while poking fun at the people who really do talk like that

but only around friends who know me well enough to get it.

[zorahopkins]

67. N.E.V.E.R.

Those vile, disgusting, hurtful, hateful *ords should NEVER EVER be used.

*ords can an do hurt.

Note: In protest of the continuing occupation of OUR *hite House by the illegal and totally corrupt Bush/Cheney regime of thugs and cronies, I REFUSE to use the letter bet*een "V" and "X" (and I urge you to do the same!)

[kenny blankenship]

68. Without taking any side to the argument, I'd like to add some background on the Fword

The word faggot means a bundle of sticks, aka: kindling. That is its denotational, dictionary meaning-and that one is fairly archaic and obsolete. What we now understand the word to mean in current usage is the result of a long process of substitutions. The reason that "bundle of sticks" came to refer to a homosexual person (esp. male), is that in Medieval times when Christian values were less restrained than they are today, faggots -the bundles of sticks- were used to burn homosexual persons alive at the stake in a public execution. The condemned homosexual burned thorougly after a lengthy warm up period, just like the bundles of sticks that were used to incinerate him, hence the metonymic transference of the word for the sticks to the person burned alive by the sticks.

The period of capital punishment for being gay in Christian Europe spanned several centuries beginning in late Middle Ages (1288 to be exact) to the end of WW2. (Although severe criminal penalties would continue to exist in some places for decades. In England you could still be imprisoned for being gay in 1967.) During that time, gay people were condemned not just as "sodomites" but also as heretics, (and also witches) And the condemnation was spread in such a blanket fashion that the word for heretic in several languages and the word for homosexual were literally interchangeable in the writings of the ecclesiastical and civil authorities and in vernacular spoken by the people. Holy Mother Church had a big problem with spreading heresies in the time that homosexuality was first criminalized, and it pleased the Church to paint all its doctrinal enemies with the broadest possible brush, so that the Cathar heretics weren't considered simply a Christian community with different beliefs -they were demonized as opposed in every way to regular Christians. They were among, other things, inaccurately denounced as homosexuals. While there were surely not that many homosexuals to be found and recognized, there were a ton of heretics in southern France, among other regions. The hyping of Cathar difference and opposition made it possible for the Church to organize the extermination of Cathar heretical communities in Europe, in a lengthy multinational military campaign called the Albigenisan Crusade. The word faggot came to mean gay over this long period of overt persecution; for even when the death-by-burning was not being strictly enforced, convicted homosexuals would often be required to wear a cloth badge depicting a bundle of sticks on their clothing, identifying them in public as "faggots", much as Jews would be required to wear Stars of David. This relieved the state of the burden of having to kill the homosexual outright in a big public burning ceremony -devolving that govt. function to motivated private citizens. (Recanted heretics would be required to wear yellow crosses, indicating their probationary status as Christians). Demonizing homosexuals became useful to the Church to lump all their "problem" people into one cauldron of sodomy-heresy-Satanism and --they hoped--to get rid of them all at once.

Calling a gay person faggot is like calling a black person "noose-bait" or calling a Jew "lampshade".

[FreeState]

76. Thank you - wish I could K&R this reply n/t

[pitohui]

71. i'm not comfortable w. it for myself and choose not to use those words

i am not the grammar or the PC police and other people know best the context, situation, and what they are trying to communicate


for me as i am not a light or witty person i can't figure any occasion i could use such words in fun or as a joke or affectionate, it just wouldn't work w. my style

[uppityperson]

73. It depends on the context. My sibs & I refer to each other as the b*s, but no one else can

unless they are a very close friend and it is done in an appropriate manner.

Regarding n* and f*, in general n* is less widely tolerated, f* is more tolerated. Sexual orientation rights and awareness is way behind. Hopefully that is changing, with every time we confront someone, or teach someone.

[freestyle]

74. I could be called both, and I refrain from using those words

I don't see anny value in attempting to reclaim things created for the express purpose of degradation. Yet, members of a group can say things that non-members can't, and that is because it is highly unlikely that a white person using n***** or a straight person using f***** is coming from a friendly place. Whether I go to the trouble of being offended depends on the other actions that go along with the speech.

[SidneyCarton]

75. If you do not wish to be called a thing, you shouldn't use the epithet yourself

If I do not wish to be called an asshole, I shouldn't call others assholes.

etc, ad nauseaum

[mitchum]

78. I prefer "blackamoor" and "nance" myself...

but I have a bigger vocabulary than most people

[petronius]

79. I think both words can be used playfully, but the user must be incredibly cautious

to ensure that the meaning/intent is clear. (I'm white and straight, FWIW.)

As for your last line, why didn't you just ask it outright? My answer is "No", both words are equally offensive. The n word has a longer/deeper historical context, and has been involved in a larger amount (by sheer volume) of suffering and hatred, but in modern usage the words are comparable...

[Sebastian Doyle]

80. In a related question: What about the word "breeder" to refer to heterosexuals?

Some straight people are offended by the word, some aren't. But I can't say I've ever heard a straight guy yell out to another straight guy "Yo, my breeder!"

[gollygee]

81. That doesn't bother me

I think it's different when it's a word used for a group that is discriminated against in our society than when it's a word used for a majority group.

[misanthrope]

85. What about straight folks who are voluntarily child-free?**nm

**

[qwlauren35]

82. My choice isn't quite there.

I can't speak for the gay community, but as an African-American, I am sick to death of the N word and see no excuse for it under any circumstances whatsoever.