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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 05:52 PM
Original message
Why the Economy Grows Like Crazy Amid High Taxes
Edited on Wed Dec-03-08 05:54 PM by Phred42
Something to share with the kool-aid drinkers if you're attempting to help them detox

This is Part 2. Part one link below


Why the Economy Grows Like Crazy Amid High Taxes
By Larry Beinhart,
http://www.alternet.org/story/106979/

The raw truth is that the economy has grown faster when taxes were higher, but how can we explain that phenomenon?

The real-world effects of tax policy are counterintuitive.

They run exactly opposite the conventional wisdom. They defy what the Heritage Foundation calls common sense and what the American Enterprise Institute calls logic.

Reality laughs at the Laffer curve, calls Ronald Reagan wrong and says George W. Bush is a loon.

High marginal tax rates correlate with economic growth.

Examples include World War II and the Truman-Eisenhower years, when it was around 90 percent, and the Clinton years, when it was high relative to the preceding and following administrations.

Tax rate increases are followed by real economic growth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Part 1



Tax Cuts: The B.S. and the Facts

By Larry Beinhart,

http://www.alternet.org/story/106410/

That tax cuts stimulate the economy is taken as a matter of faith, but the brute facts suggest otherwise
The Myth


Do tax cuts stimulate the economy?

Yes. Tax cuts allow people to keep more of their own money. Therefore, they have more to invest and spend into the economy, and they have more money to start business and create jobs, therefore also helping to stimulate the economy. -- Yahoo Answers

I think when people take a look back at this moment in our economic history, they'll recognize tax cuts work. They have made a difference. -- George W. Bush

The Realities

The brute facts are these:



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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thom Hartmann said just this afternoon that business owners are
more likely to invest in their businesses than pay the money to "Uncle Sam" when he has a higher tax liability.
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep - he had this guy on the show today
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. That's precisely the secret.
Higher taxes are also good for charities and churches.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. DING DING DING!
Yup, that's true. Business owners would rather take profits when they get to keep more of them, so tax cuts encourage that activity. It's plain common sense.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Or even pay their employees more
I've said that for a long time but it's tough to prove on a balance sheet. It's just how people think.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Beinhart's not very good with the brute facts
I think he is wrong to deny that tax cuts stimulate the economy. According to basic Keynesian economics, ANY deficit spending stimulates the economy, whether it is caused by increasing spending or decreasing revenue.

The historical record is not always clear because a number of things are happening. Obviously the growth during and after WWII is not due to high tax rates, but due to massive military spending and reconstruction as well as being the only non-destroyed first world economy.

The Laffer claim is something else. It claims, that at some tax rates you can decrease tax rates and increase revenues. Republicans in their continual pandering to their base, apply that to all rates. The historical record is clear that neither Reagan's tax cuts, nor Bush's have increased tax revenues, even though Republican spinners STILL try to claim that they did.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/53
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Keynes advocated tax cuts AND payments to the poor
The reason Keynes did so was the poor will NOT keep any of the money but will also tend to spend it on many different things, housing, food, clothing, education etc. As you go up the economic ladder you get less diverse spending and more concentration of spending on one thing or another (including savings). The greater diversity of spending by the poor means that what they buy is captured by the market slowly and into the hands of the rich via many different hands. It is these transactions that make the economy move NOT the cash involved. The more transactions the greater affect it will have on the economy.

Now in the 1930s people understood this concept, thus under the Work's Project Administration (WPA) labor intensive methods were employed even when more economic ways to do projects existed. Thus you have stories of farmers being paid to haul stones to the local highways where young men from the inner city was building the road. It would have been cheaper to just haul in stones by truck and lay them by truck, but that did NOT get as much money into the hands of the Small farmers nor the young men. The WPA was to do the later as much as get the road paved.

Today the most cost effective method would be first to increase Food Stamps and Welfare payments. Both would be used by their recipients. Further projects would be various job programs that are geared like the road projects above, not only to get something done but to employ the maximum number of people. Trails, fit this bill, but they are other ways to get people to work. For example on a rail-to-trail project use people to install a surplus US army Bailey Bridge instead of having a contractor install a concrete bridge. Get the Workers to do improvements on housing (Electrical, water and heating work must be done by professionals, but installing insulation can be done by a group of men under the supervision of a professional). The purpose of such projects is to get people working, NOT the projects themselves. The projects should be for good things, but the main purpose must be to get low income people working so they can spend money and get this economy re-started.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I do not know if Keynes advocated tax cuts
I am only saying that inverse-Keynesianism (tax cuts) works to stimulate the economy, albeit not as much as direct government spending.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Tax cuts to the wealthy increase investment but without increasing demand.
The wealthy spend what they wish then invest. That is great in an economy in which demand is exceeding supply. But in an economy in which supply is exceeding demand, i.e., when demand is weak, then it is the consumers who need the economic stimulus, not the wealthy.

If taxes could be cut in a manner that encouraged the creation of jobs for working people and the payment of higher wages to the workers who ultimately become consumers, then that would help the economy. So, it depends on what taxes are raised and how they are raised, in my opinion.

The problem with the Bush tax cuts is that those who received the greatest part of them invested a lot of their money overseas. That did not increase jobs or demand for workers here. Because wages declined with the outflow of jobs to other countries, demand here also declined. And the rest of the world has not opened its markets to our goods -- and in some cases the workers producing the goods are so poorly paid that they demand (consume) only the barest necessities.

Increasing the liquidity in credit markets in the way that Paulson has done it also won't work in my opinion. The banks have received the money, but they are too cautious to give it to consumers -- as they very well should be. After all, it's the job of employers in other businesses to increase the liquidity of working people by creating jobs and paying people.

Production has increased at a faster rate than wages.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. 90% tax rate with a 50% long term capital gain disregard, works better then a 45% tax rate
The 90% tax rate, but subject to a 50% capital gain disregard (The law prior to Reagan) would produce an effective 45% tax rate, but only if you held the assets for at least five years (Which is how Congress defined "Long Term Capital Gain"). This meant that you cared less about profits for this year, it was taxed at 90%, but if you kept it invested for five years the tax rate on the profit was only an effective 45%.

Now remember this was on Investments, thus stock holders did NOT want dividends (Taxable at the 90% rate) but capital gains do to the price of the stock going up. As the price of the stock went up, the difference between the new price and the price when purchased is the capital gain. If the stock was only sold after five years, then the profit on sale of the stock was only taxable for half its gain. Thus people did not care what the business did this year as to profitability, but what it will do over the next five years.

Today, the situation is different, and from reading about Corporations you find that over the last 20 or so years, Corporations have become more worried about what is their profit year to year. Why? Because investors since Reagan no longer look long term, they are looking at profits THIS YEAR. Since Reagan the tax rate for Long Term Capital Gains and Short Term Gains have been the same, and thus you no longer have the huge tax savings if you hold the stock five years. You are taxed the same if you hold it one year or ten years. Thus investors have incentives to take their money invested in one business and move it to another (This was permitted even under the old Capital Gain Tax rules) OR take it as profit. It is the later that caused all the problem. Most Corporations fear the affect on their business of massive withdraws by investors (More do to how it will affect their own stock options then the corporation itself). Over the last 20 or so years such withdraw of investors must be avoided, and it is avoided by providing increase profits on investments EACH YEAR, even if that profit HURTS long term investments. Thus corporations look for safe investments that will produce profits each year. The Safest investments is Real Estate, thus corporations flock to it when it is raising. Real Estate raise do to this increase level of investments and you have a real estate boom on your hands. Sooner or later the Real Estate Boom busts and you have what we have today.

This could very well explain the huge number of ups and downs in the economy from the early 1800s to WWII. Long term investments went into various industries during that time period, but more as a boom (Like the Dot.com Boom of the late 1990s) then any serious investment. The Canal Boom (1820s), the Railroads (1850s) Boom and even the raise of the Automobiles in the 1920s (and boom in the 1920s) all lead to real estate booms and then busts (The 1837 Recession was the worse in US History, except for the 1870s and 1930s, and lead to almost complete elimination of Paper Money in the 1830s). The railroad boom went longer (and made longer by the Civil War), but it went bust in the 1870s. Most Americans still lived in Rural areas in the 1870s (The first Census that shows more Americans in Urban areas then Rural Areas is 1920), but that did NOT severe hardship in Urban America, which in turn lead to the closest thing to a Communist revolt that ever occurred in the US, the General Strike of 1877 of the strike they are other threads on it in DU). The 1920s can be seen as a Bubble investment in the then new Automobile, which lead to another land bubble and the crash of 1929.

Thus Congress passed high tax rates in the 1930s to get money for the various programs to get the US out of the Depression. The high tax rate prevented anyone thinking in terms of five years or less. By the 1970s this was standard business practice, in fact most businesses no longer considered Five years "Long Term", they were looking 10-20 years down the pike. Five years had become the new Short term (And the then old short term of one year was viewed as unimportant except for SEC and tax purposes).

Now in the 1970s inflation was a problem. It was both a reflection of the need to finance the Vietnam war AND the fact the US was no longer a net exporter of oil. It was bad under LBJ but he balanced the budget for 1969 with a special income tax to finance the Vietnam War (A tax Nixon refused to renew and till Clinton was President the last Balance Budget). Nixon tried everything EXCEPT raising taxes to end inflation, he did wage and price controls (They did NOT work) he ended the pegging of the US Dollar to $35 a ounce of Gold (it provided him sometime but inflation continued). Ford tried talking it down (Ford's WIN i.e. "Whip Inflation Now" Campaign was comedians fares for years). Carter tried to undo the damage done, but his main concern was employment so he left inflation get to 18% before he decided to appoint Vocker as Chairmen of the Federal Reserve to get Inflation under control. Reagan claimed he beat inflation but it was still a healthy 6-7% annual rate till Clinton became President (And this is with the HUGE reduction in oil prices during the 1980s, do people remember the "Oil Glut"?).

I go into the above history of Inflation for it was used as the rationale to eliminate the Long Term Capital Gain disregard and to treat all income equally AND at a rate lower then it had been even under the 70% tax rate LBJ had imposed (down from the 90% FDR had imposed). With the Long Term Capital Gain disregard, the effective tax rate on investments held for five years was 35% since the 1960s and under Reagan that became the rate for both Long Term and Short Term Gains (The Long Term Capital Gain Tax rules stayed in the Tax Code, but given the disregard was abolished AND the rates were the same for both long term and short term, no longer affecting tax law). The rationale was that inflation was eating up people's investments for after 5 years the money you received for your investment was in inflation adjusted dollars much less then its nominal value (i.e. if you invested $100 for five years and sold the investment for $500, you would have a nominal long term capital gain of $400, but if inflation had averaged 100% for each year, and you reduce that $400 by the inflation the profit would have been less then Zero, yet you have to pay taxes on your $400 gain).

Now no one ever expected inflation to get to 100%, in fact Carter policies reduced it to about 6%, which Reagan and Bush I kept, but the rationale was a good excuse to eliminate Long term capital gain treatment. The problem is it lead to a return to short term thinking and in the short term the safest investment is real estate (It is hard to destroy) so sooner or later that is where the money goes, and once it starts a bubble will commence and it is the bubble that destroys the economy. Thus I have to agree with the Author, return to a 90% tax rate, with a 50% long term Capital gain disregard so to encourage long term planning.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. Um, that so-called "conventional wisdom" that says taxes need to be cut all the time ...
... that's not conventional wisdom, it's talking points.

It's propaganda.

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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. If tax cuts are good for the economy why not reduce them to zero?
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Rec and kick again for good measure. n/t
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