Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Obama "Dream Team": Rubin-clones And Other Fakers

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:37 PM
Original message
The Obama "Dream Team": Rubin-clones And Other Fakers
Published on The Smirking Chimp (http://smirkingchimp.com)


By Mike Whitney
Created Nov 29 2008 - 3:11pm

Things are getting crazier by the day. On Tuesday, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson announced that the Fed would commit another $800 billion to fight the financial crisis which has spread to the broader economy and is causing sharp declines in consumer spending. The Fed plans to buy $600 billion of mortgage-backed securities (MBS) from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and another $200 billion of Triple A bonds from non-bank financial companies that provide financing for consumers. There's just one little hitch, Fannie and Freddie are already owned by the government, so buying the bad paper is like moving the figures from one ledger to another. It's pointless. Except for the fact, that by shuffling the paperwork, Bernanke can drive down long-term interest rates and (hopefully) rekindle flagging home sales. It's quite a trick.

And with the other $200 billion he can kick-start the securitization market by purchasing bundles of student loans, credit cards and car loans. Investors have been boycotting the asset-backed securities (ABS) markets for months now which has choked off the flow credit to consumers. So the Fed is trying to unclog the plumbing by stepping in as the lender of last resort. Of course, if the Fed really wanted to get money to consumers there are much easier ways to do it, like cutting the payroll tax or mailing out stimulus checks or issuing tax rebates to couples making under $60,000 per year. But that's not what Bernanke wants to do. The real objective is to reignite securitization because that's the vehicle the investment banks and hedge funds use to increase profits through leveraged bets on odd-sounding derivatives. (CDO, MBS, CDS). But no one is buying dodgy securities anymore because no one knows their true value. Until that can be worked out, investors will stay away. That's why Bernanke and Paulson would be better off with a little less liquidity and a little more transparency. Price discovery for structured investments is critical. If investors know the market price, then they'll jump in. If not; it's no dice.

Bernanke and Paulson are trying to tackle the financial crisis from the wrong end. This isn't about liquidity or "access to credit", its about confidence. The public's trust has been betrayed a million times over. They've been tricked with WMD, bamboozled with phantom enemies, and cheated with bogus securities. All the surveys say the same thing; public confidence is at an all-time low. As a result, fear and pessimism are more widespread than any time in recent history. People no longer expect tomorrow to be better than today. In fact, they expect it to be worse, and for good reason. The country has broken loose from its moorings and is adrift. There's no accountability at any level of government anymore; it doesn't matter how big or heinous the crime, no one pays. The justice system is a sham. In fact, the D.O.J. is just a weapon for destroying political enemies; that's it. The one noteworthy conviction in the last 8 years was home-decorating guru Martha Stewart. What a joke. In his memoirs, Bush can boast, "At least we got Martha Stewart off the streets."

And it's not just the justice system that lacks credibility either; it's the financial system, too. The stampede out of the stock market to US Treasurys shows how quickly trust can turn to panic. The downward spiral of the economy reflects the mood of the country; dark and gloomy. That's not something that can be changed with more liquidity. After all, the economy is more than the sum of its parts, just like people are more than just consumption machines that can be zapped like rats into spending themselves into oblivion. They're sentient beings who can see the deteriorating economic conditions closing in on them and threatening their security. They're scared. Bernanke--the academic--sees the economy through the lens of his research on the Great Depression. He, like many other monetarists, believe that the depression was the result of the one-third contraction in the money supply during the 1930s. It is a widely held view and it could be true. But if that's the case, than why haven't the Fed's myriad lending facilities--which have flooded the financial system with trillions of dollars of liquidity--stopped the markets from crashing and the recession from deepening. Could it be that there were other factors besides just money supply? People are hunkering down for a reason, and its not just lost revenue. They've lost faith in their institutions--the government, the banks, and the media; everybody is in it for themselves, and it shows. Even now, with the economy teetering at the brink of disaster, high-ranking officials like Paulson are still diverting hundreds of billions of dollars from the Treasury to their Wall Street buddies leaving nothing behind but a few scraps for the working stiffs. And Paulson isn't alone either; his Darwinian "dog eat dog" creed is the prevailing ethos of the corrupt oligarchy that runs the country, Republican and Democrat alike, it makes no difference. It's "me first" and the public be damned.

<snip>

The fact is, the Obama star-studded economic recovery team emerges from the same ideological petris-dish as Bernanke and Paulson. Their world view is shaped by the same strong sense of entitlement which will ultimately prevent them from enacting the regulatory reforms that they need to be put in place to restore transparency, confidence and credibility. Instead, they will unleash a torrent of stimulus spending (infrastructure and green technology mainly) followed by unorthodox monetarist/fiscal chicanery (like purchasing stocks on the equities market or buying long-term Treasurys) all of which will hide the fact that they are not forcing the bad debts out into the open so they can be written down and the markets can reestablish equilibrium.

No one disputes that Geithner, Summers and Volcker are smarter and more competent than Team Bush, and that, their Keynesian plan to inject massive doses of stimulus into the economy will have a positive effect. But that's as far as it goes. The men behind these remedies are limited by institutional loyalties that will keep them from overhauling the system in meaningful way. Neither Summers, nor Geithner nor Volcker would ever dare to tamper with the revenue-producing system which maintains the orderly division between rich and poor. That just won't happen.http://smirkingchimp.com/print/18939/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Cry me a river....
Who did you want? Rumsfeld? Cheney? Baker? and the right wing gang?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I hear Julie London warming up too. Tuff! Obama is everyone's president now. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. i like this... best response eva...
"Obama's is everyone's president" now. tuff it up..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Learn to suck on it and like it. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. how about, learn to "brush it" off?
This was Obama's master of styles during the general election campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why not Cheney for a cabinet position??? After all, he'd be implementing Obama's vision!
(And if that vision just happens to be to surround himself with a rightwing echo chamber, why not?) :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. are you comparing a murderer, lying bastard with
Hillary? Jim Jones?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Susan Rice? and many others who ARE NOT
right wing nuts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If Cheney is murderer (based on his support of the Iraq War,) then isn't HRC too?
Joe Biden??? :wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not only his support of the iraq war.. there are others
parts of his governmental style and hypocrisy we can accuse him of committing.. let's not forget that these people lied and cheated to our legislative branch when we were at the brink of going to war...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Congress had access to the VERY SAME intelligence that the WH had
If Cheney can be accused of hypocrisy, so can Hillary. And Joe. And Robert Gates. et al.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. No. they didn't. those intelligence briefings were made up
false and most of them were hidden from congress. Haven't you heard from the congressman from ohio? He's said a bunch of times. They DID NOT have full access to intelligence briefings right before going to war, but much of did vote for the war because they were afraid of being "casted" as un-american, anti-american or whatever you want call it... Dont' you remember how this country was after 9-11? or a year after that tragic day?

Let's be honest with each other, it was very easy for us to voice our opinions against the war because we are not in a political position and had nothing to risk, but we also must undernstand and remember that most of th eDemocratic congressman in congres then were been blocked, rejected and ignored from any political discussions from any committees, meetings or discussions...

Read the book. Fire Breathing Liberal by Robert Wexler. You will get a pretty picture how Democrats in congress during those years were treated and undermined by the right wing war mongers, such as bush, rove, rumsfeld and many others.. and how the doors were being shot each time they tried any opposition to the shenanigans and corruptions that were taken place
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Why not?
Edited on Mon Dec-01-08 02:20 PM by polmaven
Before the VP pick was made, some were actually accusing Hillary of being capable of murdering Obama if she was the choice. ....

'Course, there is no Hillary Hate here at DU...Just criticism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. hillary enabled the policies of bush
she is as guilty of the deaths these last 5 years as anyone else who voted for this crap and has no regrets. Much like bush and cheney I would say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. She said she regretted her vote.
But of course, you already knew that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. do you have that quote somewhere?
all I have ever seen is this.....



In a letter to her constituents in November 2005, Clinton expressed her belief that the war in Iraq shouldn’t be “open-ended,” but was clear that she would never “pull out of Iraq immediately.” She wrote that she wouldn’t accept any timetable for withdrawal and won’t even embrace a “redeployment” of US troops along the lines of Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.).

“I take responsibility for my vote, and I, along with a majority of Americans, expect the president and his administration to take responsibility for the false assurances, faulty evidence and mismanagement of the war,” Clinton wrote in her lengthy letter that amounted to nothing short of denial for her own culpability in the mess.

Clinton soon after reiterated her position to a group of Democrats in Kentucky. “The time has come for the administration to stop serving up platitudes and present a plan for finishing this war with success and honor,” she said. “I reject a rigid timetable that the terrorists can exploit, and I reject an open timetable that has no ending attached to it.”

Translation: Clinton is all for an extended American stay in Iraq. She “takes responsibility” for her vote on the war, but won’t admit that it was wrong. And of course, Clinton is still for “winning” this war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Here ya go:
Clinton has often been asked if she regrets her vote authorizing military action and she usually answers that question with an artful dodge, saying that she accepts responsibility for the vote and suggesting that if the Senate had all the information it has today (no WMD, troubled post-war military planning, etc. . .), there would never have been a vote on the Senate floor.

However, she has never gone as far as some of her potential rivals for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination -- who also voted for the war -- and called her vote a mistake or declared that she would have cast her vote differently with all the facts presently available to her -- until now.

This morning on NBC's "Today" show, Sen. Clinton was asked about her 2002 vote and offered a slightly evolved answer. "Obviously, if we knew then what we know now, there wouldn't have been a vote," she said in her usual refrain before adding, "and I certainly wouldn't have voted that way."


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2006/12/hillary_clinton.html

Her words are different, but the meaning is the same. If she could go back, she would vote differently. She regrets that vote. If she was careful about how she phrased it, it's understandable; she was trying to win independent voters in the primary, and "regret" is often seen as a sign of weakness. As a female candidate, perceived weakness on national security matters is a poison pill. It's stupid, but it's politics.

People who complain because she didn't use one particular kind of phrasing to say exactly the same damned thing are just nitpicking, looking for reasons to bitch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. and her votes on landmines and cluster bombs
are a disgrace. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19535.htm


On September 6, 2006, a Senate bill–a simple amendment to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas–presented Senator Clinton with a timely opportunity to protect the lives of children throughout the world.

The cluster bomb is one of the most hated and heinous weapons in modern war, and its primary victims are children.

Senator Obama voted for the amendment to ban cluster bombs. Senator Clinton, however, voted with the Republicans to kill the humanitarian bill, an amendment in accord with the Geneva Conventions, which already prohibit the use of indiscriminate weapons in populated areas.

All senators are expected to inform themselves on the issues before they cast a vote. The evidence is overwhelming. It is hard to believe that Senator Clinton was unaware of the humanitarian crisis when she voted to continue the use of cluster bombs in cities and populated areas. A U.N. weapons commission called cluster bombs “weapons of indiscriminate effect.” For years the international press reported the horrific consequences of cluster bombs on civilians. On April 10, 2003, for example, Asia Times described the carnage in Baghdad hospitals: “The absolute majority of patients are women and children, victims of shrapnel, and most of all, fragments of cluster bombs.” Reporting from a hospital in Hillah, The Mirror, a British newspaper, became graphic: “Shrapnel peppered their bodies. Blackened the skin. Smashed heads. Tore limbs. A doctor reports that ‘all the injuries you see were caused by cluster bombs. The majority of the victims were children who died because they were outside.’”

Even after wars subside, after treaties are signed, after belligerents return home, cluster bombs wreak havoc on civilian life. Up to 20 percent of the bomblets fail to detonate on the first round, only to become landmines that later explode on playgrounds and farmlands. Children are drawn to cluster bomb canisters, the deadly duds that look like beer cans or toys before they explode.

Clinton on Landmines

Of course Senator Clinton did not expect her vote on cluster bombs to become an issue in a presidential campaign. But that vote is one of many examples in a pattern of indifference to the welfare of children in the Developing World.

Because Clinton is now taking credit for the White House years, when she was a partner in power, we should also look closely at the Clinton policy regarding landmines, an issue of great concern to parents, to all those who care for children. The U.S. is the leading manufacturer of landmines. For families across the rest of the globe, landmines are buried terror. More than 100 million landmines are deployed in over 60 countries worldwide–nine million in Angola, 10 million in Cambodia. About 20,000 M14 antipersonnel mines are buried in the mountain areas of Yong-do, South Korea. According to U.N. estimates, 26,000 people, mostly civilians in developing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Yes, and Obama's FISA vote was hideous too.
I forget, how did Clinton vote on that one? Ohhh! That's right! She voted against it.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/07/10/obama_fisa/

No politician can maintain a perfect progressive voting record while remaining electable. Keeping some perspective on this is not a bad thing. Should we hate them for their mistakes, or should we raise hell until they rectify the mistakes? It seems to me that the second course of action is much wiser and more realistic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. FISA still has a chance in the courts
dead children because of hillary's votes do not. Hypocrite is her middle name. Claiming to have childrens' welfare as a cause and voting to kill more is criminal. But go ahead and continue to compare apples and or oranges if that floats your boat. I am done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
34. Newsflash: Obama is a Democrat. Hillary is a Democrat. He's not your wet dream
of a revolutionary - he's a member of a political party, along with Hillary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. He's promised to put "many" Republicans in his admin. So why not Cheney?
Remember, the ideology of his appointees isn't supposed to matter. Since Obama is in charge, all the rightwingers in his cabinet will somehow stop being rightwingers...somehow.

Anyway, Obama is only after the "most qualified" people, and everybody knows all the most qualified people are hardline rightwingers. I mean, just look at the last 8 years!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Presumably because he's interested in employing Republicans with whom he
can respectfully disagree, and Cheney doesn't fit that - or whatever other - criteria he has.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. uh no not exactly
did you read the article? How about an actual fucking economist instead of the continued use of wall street criminals? Fox and hen house? Get it? The same old, same old. I see nothing positive here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Leftchick, it's a shame people refuse to discuss the VERY smart points brought up in the article
-snip-
No one disputes that Geithner, Summers and Volcker are smarter and more competent than Team Bush, and that, their Keynesian plan to inject massive doses of stimulus into the economy will have a positive effect. But that's as far as it goes. The men behind these remedies are limited by institutional loyalties that will keep them from overhauling the system in meaningful way. Neither Summers, nor Geithner nor Volcker would ever dare to tamper with the revenue-producing system which maintains the orderly division between rich and poor. That just won't happen.
-snip-

Change we can believe in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. it is a shame
we have been had. soon everyone will wipe the sand away. hopefully.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. That's One Thing That Bugs Me Too
Bringing in people with experience in investing and finance does not equate to understanding the macroeconomy.

Finance and investing are microeconomic activities. Huge ones, to be sure, but are not directly correlated to the full economy.

So, being experienced on Wall Street doesn't seem to qualify one for Treasury, but we keep doing that. Where are the real economists? (Like you said.)

The Professor
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. A naked display of where the priorities lie.

Why can people not understand this?

People thought they were electing FDR and they got Hoover instead.

Change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. Well, That's Not What I Said
We're upset about two different things. That's ok, just wanted to clarify.
GAC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. Lest not forget Horowitz, and Bill Kristol..
would you like to see these instead?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That's right, Represent!
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. ya know, looking at things objectively . . .
and discarding wishful thinking and rose-colored glasses, it's becoming increasingly apparent that, in at least some policy areas -- the economy and foreign policy being the two most notable -- Obama wants nothing to do with the liberal/progressive wing of the party or with our positions on these critical issues . . . he wants us for our votes, but once in office it appears that we're again going to be on the outside looking in . . . and that is very, very disturbing, to say the least . . .

I desperately hope that I'm wrong about this, but actions speak much, much louder than words . . . and thus far his actions are far more reflective of the BushCo approach to things than the Kucinich approach . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yep, the people have been used & kicked to the curb yet again.
:argh:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. well said
I believe the number of rose colored glasses being shattered in the next four years to be huge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. People know another Enron when they see it.
It just pisses me off that trillions are being sunk into the market that could be better spent on the people, on jobs, on anything but pouring good money after bad.

"Change"-what a concept. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Did you even read the article?
Not that Whitney's got any more to say than his usual whinges- but he did make a point of stressing the return of Keynsian economics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. times just keep getting better for corporate executives
I wouldn't want to be a union worker or a wage slave now though.

The race to the bottom has just been kicked up a notch, as Obama is selecting competent corporatists to replace the corproatist fuckups of the last administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Oh, well said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
27. Sarkozy & Putin have shown more leadership
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC