Do you support the continued occupation of Iraq? Obama just said we WILL NOT WITHDRAW completely.

[Leopolds Ghost]

He said we must in all probability have a residual force in place to protect US Interests,
including "American civilians in Iraq" (read: oil companies and their mercenary forces.)

Complete reversal from what Kerry said in 2004.

Also note Kerry and Dean and especially Wes Clark (another former NATO commander and a sharp contrast to Jones) --
the entire spectrum of the anti-war movement -- have been completely frozen out of future Democratic party leadership.

Also note that, per Chuck Todd, Jones was a Republican pick -- insisted on by Gates and
McCain as a precondition for their involvement in an Obama administration -- and
that Jones is a close personal ally of McCain and Gates on national security matters --
in return for McCain being able to serve as the loyal opposition wing of the Republican
Party and have Obama's ear.

Finally note that Obama is in complete agreement with Hillary on Iraq and Iran and said so himself
at today's press conference. The Iraq war was apparently neither immoral nor illegal and Obama will
not even privately admit that he does not oppose it on principle, only on practicality; it is not
a matter of not saying it in public, but that the Democratic Party leadership flat out disagree with
the anti-war movement. Iran will be faced with a hard line in the sand military threat like Bush I did
to Saddam to prevent him from using nerve gas; and there will be no complete withdrawal from Iraq
to positions over the horizon as Kerry advocated in 2004.

This is an internal coup by the Democratic Party machine to restore the Washington Consensus.

[ensho]

1. kick

nt

[elkston]

2. There is a 4th option.

Now that we're in, we have an obligation to leave the country with a competent government and well trained local security force. If a residual US force helps meet that goal, then I support it.

Note: Eventually, the residual force would have to leave as well.

[hendo]

7. I thought that was option 3

nt

[elkston]

16. No. His option 3 assumes an ulterior motive of protecting oil interests.

Whereas my option 4 is only about acheiving a specific safety milestone for the good of Iraq.

[Sex Pistol]

54. I agree with your "4th option."

Iraq may have been stable in a bad way prior to the war, but it was somewhat stable. Therefore, it would be irresponsible to leave before the objectives you have outlined are achieved.

[L0oniX]

55. Huh? Competent government? We don't even have that here.

[gravity]

I want whatever ensures peace in the region.

My position on this will change with the circumstances on the ground

[sandnsea]

3. It's the exact same thing Kerry said in 2004

Training forces and troops to protect the Embassy. He said no permanent bases, he never said we would close our Embassy and why should we. It's NORMAL to have Embassies, that's another method of reducing war. It was critical during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Leopolds Ghost]

8. No, Kerry specifically called for over the horizon withdrawal. Words have meaning-"Over the horizon"

As the reporter asked, do you support India's and the US mutual right to have a residual force in Pakistan?

Or should they remain over the horizon except in the event of a military threat, as per the law of nations?

What does the Embassy have to do with anything? Embassies are non-military by definition.

If the US Embassy is being used to project any force at all, it is a perversion of the diplomatic custom.

[sandnsea]

15. Combat troops over the horizon

He did not call for closing the Embassy and pulling those troops out. He also offered the possibility of doing Iraqi troop training in other countries, if necessary. Funny how some of the same people who said Kerry was going to continue the war in 2004 - suddenly appear to have at least paid a little bit of attention to the fact that he said he was going to end it.

[karynnj]

22. You actually deserve credit on people knowing that as

you have posted links that showed Kerry hoping for some withdrawals in 2005. You are right that he never spoke of pulling the embassy or its troops - we have Americans protecting less dangerous assignments - why not here.

My only concern is that I don't like Kerry being used against Obama. I would like as many people to see Kerry for what he did offer. I seriously think that the reason the powers that be in the media and government fought so hard against Kerry is because they knew that he really would work to change our foreign policy - after all he called for it consistently from 1966!

[blindpig]

13. Huh?

So, The US had and embassy compound the size of a small city housing a battalion or more of combat troops in Cuba? Don't think so.

[sandnsea]

17. We did in the Soviet Union, they did here

What was that Abraham Lincoln quote about removing all doubt?

[blindpig]

19. Size matters.

As I recall we had a couple squads of marines there, no more than a platoon.

An embassy/military contingent of the size of that in Iraq implies more than normal diplomatic relations.

[karynnj]

20. Actually, even in 2004 Kerry specifially said no permanent bases

in the first debate - and it was a point he brought up - not a forced answer to a question. He did, even in 2006, speak of protecting our embassy and having an over the horizon force that could respond (and he hoped at the request of the country) in going after terrorists.

There is a difficulty in comparing Kerry 2004 to Obama 2008. It was actually BOLDER for Kerry to say what he did in 2008, than for Obama to have said the same thing now. I think Kerry was our best hope to really change foreign policy - he has a nearly 3 decade history of calling for that - and he risked a political future in fighting to end the Vietnam War and in fighting against the illegal covert war in Central America. (That is likely why the media spent at least 2 weeks bashing him in their SoS articles.) I hope that over time his ideas will gain the respect they deserve. (In fact, I think the biggest cost he had from his IWR vote is that it alienated many natural supporters.

As to Obama, I was always cautiously optimistic, but never sure what his Iraq position going forward was. Many things he said were things Kerry said first - mostly in 2006. I would have been more confident if he had voted for Kerry/Feingold. I still hope that he will move to a negotiated peace.

[sandnsea]

28. Which is not the same as no Embassy

and no training troops and no protection for USAID and other US agencies. He never called for the over the horizon troops to be the ones protecting the Embassy, it is just not how it's done.

[karynnj]

29. I agree with you on the embassies

I think we may need to wait to hear more complete detailed Obama plans to see what they really are.

[LibDemAlways]

4. This is a no-brainer. Get the hell out. We had no business

illegally invading Iraq in the first place.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Barack Obama reiterated what he has always stated......

Nothing more, and nothing less.

Stating otherwise is twisting his words, IMO.

Obama is the future of the Democratic party leadership....
and he was anti-Dumb Iraq War!

Wes Clark was never anti-War, and is not now.
In fact, he was less Anti-Iraq War than was Obama.

Howard Dean was as Anti-war as Obama, not more so.

John Kerry voted for the IWR.

Your choices offered are narrow, and less complex than the situation requires.....
So I'm glad that it is Barack Obama who will be leading our nation, and not anyone else who ran.

Further you do not know what Obama will or will not even privately admit,
as you are not privy to his private admissions one way or another.

You are concluding a whole lot, that is best saved for when you actually
start seeing some action....which can't be till after he is sworn in.

I call your OP premature speculative conclusions based on nothing new. :eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

10. So a smart Iraq war is OK?

Do you feel liberal Dems like Dean and Clark should take some credit for a smart pro-war tack in Iraq?

Much the same way that Dem spokespeople are going on air saying they are "insulted" by implcations that Obama is not a hawk or and insisting he is not, as Republican counterparts "accuse" him of being, somehow opposed to the Iraq war in general? and they cite examples to prove he will be not so different from center-right of the Republican Party that has, they claim, ruled for the past 8 years (new definition of center-right, much like Overton). They are being told to say this, and most of them believe it, so it must be true.

[FrenchieCat]

12. I'm just responding to what you wrote in your op.

Barack Obama stated publicly that he was against a Dumb War "at the time", and stated in no uncertain terms that Iraq was such a war.

He is the man at the top of the National Security Team, and their job, according to Barack, is to implement his vision to end the Iraq War....
which is to withdraw from Iraq in a reasonable manner...but to withdraw.

You can believe that Obama will be not much different from center-right of the Republican Party,
and I will reserve the right to disagree with your view.

You have yet to answer how you believe that Howard Dean, John Kerry or Wes Clark were more anti war than Barack Obama ever was....so I'm not sure what you mean by "liberal" Dems.

Again, your judgement in this particular statement that you are making,
is not sound as far as I am concerned....
and although you have a right to your opinions,
no matter how much I believe them to be flawed,
you have no right to your own facts.......

And that is all that I was clearing up.

SO again, I disagree with your conclusion that Barack Obama is not different from the Center-right of the Republican Party.....
And I believe that I have a right to that opinion, and the right to express it as a post in this Op.

I thank you for allowing me to do so.

[karynnj]

25. You can't base the comparisions on one vote or speech or one answer to a question

Obama will be judged based on what he does as President. The fact is that when he was in the Senate, he did not take the political risk of voting for Kerry/Feingold - though 7 months later, when it was seen to be a popular position he and HRC moved to it.

Kerry voted for the IWR, but he spoke of not rushing to war and it not being a war of last resort before it started. There is no way to look at Kerry's 4 decades in public life and to see him as "pro-war". Kerry said why he gave his vote and said he would speak out if Bush did not do as he promised them - and he spoke out before the war started - loud enough that he was one of the few targets of the right. He also has (with Feingold) led in proposing exit strategies.

I think he was by far the best of the real choice we had - the top three - and he has an enormous opportunity to change the direction we are on - if he has the desire and the courage to do it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. No matter how much they want to stay there they can pretend to afford it

anymore. That will take care of that.

[taterguy]

9. We all support occupying oil-rich lands

How are we supposed to get to work without gasoline?

[Leopolds Ghost]

11. Two words -- Somalia.

Oh wait, that's one word.

(Note the lack of oil there.)

[taterguy]

18. I never claimed oil was the only reason we occupy lands

Just the reason we're occupying Iraq.

Oh and BTW, we left Somalia.

[leftstreet]

14. It's not our fault those people are living on top of OUR oil

They don't need it. They live in worker compounds close to their jobs. They don't have any malls to get to. Their women don't even drive do they?

Why are you persecuting us so?
:cry:

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[mike_c]

21. equivocating on this issue makes me sick....

:grr:

[Sebastian Doyle]

23. It's time to end ALL the goddamn occupations.

Iraq. Afghanistan. Korea. Germany. whatever.

The purpose of the United States military is to defend the United States of America. It has been used to do anything BUT that since 1946, and that shit needs to stop NOW.

[BoneDaddy]

24. I do not mind helping the Iraqi's out

but not with a conventional army. Advisors, special forces units, air support are all fine for me. We broke the eggs and we do bear some repsonsibility to help clean up the messs. AS for keeping houndreds of thousands of troops in, that clearly is not working and the vast bulk of our regular soldiers need to come home.

[notadmblnd]

26. Did you really think that TPTB would allow someone to be elected

that wouldn't maintain the status quo?

[Nederland]

27. Thirty Years From Now

Very few people will say that invading Iraq was a mistake. It will turn out like Korea--a very unpopular war while being waged that is later viewed to have worked out reasonable well.

[no limit]

31. lol. you're kidding right?

hundreds of years of hostilities between the sunnis and shias will be resolved in the next 30 years? Did Bush finally find that magic wand he's been so obsessed with?

[Nederland]

42. Nope

No doubt people in 1945 laughed at the idea that France and German would become best buddies after centuries of hostilities, but look what happened...

[no limit]

45. What a flawed comparison. Did your computer get infected with a virus that pops up freerepublic?

You might want to do a virus scan, because freerepublic is where I've seen that flawed comparison before.

Whatever "hostilities" existed between France and Germany had nothing to do with religion. You didn't have French citizens blowing themselves up in German cities and vice versa. France and Germany were 2 seperate countries, the sunnis and the shias live together. And finally, centuries of hostilities between the French and Germans? What hostilities when?

What's happening between the sunnis and the shias is a civil war. Until one side gains control there will be no shortage of people willing to fight. What we should do is pull out, let them fight this civil war (which will be a long and horrible war), and eventually a dictator will be installed and we'll be back to where we were under Saddam, the difference being a few million dead. Instead what we will do is stay there for decades until the deficits get so huge we'll be forced to pull out because we won't be able to afford it anymore. Both ways a bunch of people die and we'll be back to where we were under Saddam.

The Iraqis are not ready for a democracy because their lives revolve around the divisions in their religion. The sunnis who are a minority will fight to death for control, they will not accept democracy. And sunni groups such as Al Queda and sunni governments such as Saudi Arabia will will provide support to their effort. The Shias will fight back and they'll get plenty of support from countries such as Iran.

The situation there is fucked. The image you have in your head is nothing more than a pipe dream.

[Nederland]

49. Learn a little history

Yes, there have been centuries of hostilities between the French and the Germans, dating all the way back to 1516. And yes, religion played a major part: France is Catholic and Germany was the birthplace of the Protestant Reformation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-German_enmity

I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with ignorance.

[wuushew]

35. Why is Iraq more likely to go down as a Korea and not a Vietnam?

American body counts were roughly comparable, 53k vs 58k dead. What was the difference in regards to public opinion?

[Nederland]

38. Response

In Korea the outcome was a functioning democracy (South Korea). In Vietnam the outcome was a communist dictatorship. There in lies the key difference. If Iraq ends up a functioning democracy like South Korea did, the war will be labeled a success.

[wuushew]

39. You misunderstand

I was asking why Vietnam and Korea are viewed differently in terms of success. I am well aware of the Iraq Body Count as I have your link as a bookmark going back to 2003-4.

[Nederland]

40. Yeah I realized my mistake and rewrote the post (nt)

[no limit]

30. Well duh! none of you actually believed that Obama would get us out of Iraq

did you?

If so I got a bridge for sale, I'll send you my pay pal address.

[fla nocount]

32. He is the God chosen savior of this century and his wisdom...

divine in nature. It is not my place to second guess the anointed who is only performing God's will. You see on the 7th day God rested and while He was resting those swarthy little bastards moved in on top of all that oil (with guidance from Satan who knew it was there). Obama-Rahma is simply trying to right this wrong foisted upon a trusting and unsuspecting Deity. Drill, Baby, Drill and pipe it across Afghanistan into God's coffers for the good of mankind and America.

I have have no questions or doubts, just faith in Obama.

[Greyhound]

34. Sing it, brother!

:rofl:

[Pastiche423]

50. Obama-Rahma - I love it!

Out of Iraq NOW!!!

[fla nocount]

53. Use it please, I'm the meme king.

Howling Blue Dog's of Same, Rahm-a Rahm-a Ding-Dongers, Fancy Nancy's Panty Brigade, DLC Glee-Clubbers, Kind-a-Sleazy-Rice, Pubics and S-Winn-dle Dixie Supermarkets, Orlando Slantinel, Omama's Marching Mullah's, Bill O...really?, Gee Dubious, I've got a million of them. What I need is smiling, smirking, charismatic repeaters...be kind, put a smile in the smirk.

[Pastiche423]

59. I have just copied your post to my HD

In the future, I will use it Liberally!

Although Obama-Rahma is my favorite, Rahm-a Rahm-a Ding-Dongers and DLC Glee-Clubbers come in a close 2nd.

[Swamp Rat]

33. I not only support, but DEMAND 100% withdrawal of our troops.

!

[Octafish]

56. It's the War Party.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way for a long time.

Been that way tooooo long.

Hope all is well, Compay!

[soulcore]

36. Where's my Change? n/t

[AmyCamus]

47. That's where the Hope comes in...

The netroots are left Hoping he'll Change.

[OneBlueSky]

37. the problem I have with Obama not considering Iraq an ethical, moral, and legal wrong . . .

is that, if that's his position, he will never support prosecution of Bush and company for initiating that war in the first place . . . and that is not acceptable . . . not at all . . .

if we let our leaders get away with starting wars based on lies and misinformation and then to nothing do hold them accountable for their actions, we will never again be trusted by the international community . . . if Obama is really about change, he'd best take into account what the rest of the world thinks change is all about . . .

[earth mom]

41. Staying in Iraq is ENDLESS WAR people.

:puke:

[MiniMe]

43. He said that all along, so did Hillary

[orleans]

44. i say we get the fuck out. quick. n/t

[AmyCamus]

46. Obama sets record, breaks campaign promises before taking office.

The netroots have been kicked to the curb.

[no limit]

48. I don't understand why people like you seem shocked.

Just be happy McCain isn't in charge. You should have known this would happen as you cast your ballot.

[noamnety]

52. No, this is what he's said all along - 50,000 troops to stay in Iraq.

Some people have been pointing this out for a long time, but I get the sense most of DU has been in denial about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3867970#3868169

[AmyCamus]

60. Who did you vote for?

Nice "I voted for peace" avatar.

[noamnety]

61. It's a veterans for peace avatar.

http://veteransforpeace.org/

[malaise]

51. Get the fugg out of Iraq now

The invasion was illegal.

[Octafish]

57. Odd, that.

What Ray McGovern said: O.I.L.

[BoneDaddy]

58. Option #5

We pull out all ground forces. We leave advisors to train their military, elite special forces unit for the appropriate strikes and offer air and sea support if needed to take out training camps or dug-in enemy units.

We help rebuild their infrastructure that we destroyed and call upon the UN to give intermediate support while we withdrawl. You sit down with Iran and Saudi Arabia as well as the Iraqi's and you begin to hold talks, urging Shia and Sunni cease fires and call for the recall of any enemy combatants in the area.

We call for world support for peace and hold any disruptors of that peace accountable.