Lessons from a Black Friday death at Wal-Mart (kudos to Best Buy)

[Omaha Steve]

http://voices.kansascity.com/node/2945

By Yael T. Abouhalkah, Kansas City Star Editorial Page columnist

The death of a Long Island Wal-Mart employee crushed by Black Friday shoppers has raised legitimate questions about Americans and our shopping mania.

Among them:

-- Have stores gone too far in trying to convince shoppers to arrive in throngs in early morning hours the day after Thanksgiving?

For example, the Long Island store where Jdimytai Damour was trampled to death promoted a "blitz" line for shoppers, borrowing from the football terminology for a defensive rush at the quarterback.

-- What kinds of people rush over a man, then keep coming and stepping on him -- and then callously go about shopping?

snip Best Buy stores and some others have handed out numbers to shoppers while they are still in line, giving them first crack at good buys. That policy would tend to make crowds more orderly.

FULL story at link.

[ColbertWatcher]

1. I wish the GOP-controlled media would stop saying Damour was "trampled."

No autopsy has been performed, no one knows yet the real cause of death.

[ZombieHorde]

8. Totally, my money is on death by auto-erotic-asphyxiation.

[ColbertWatcher]

12. Actually, it's called "compressive asphixia," but ...

... the ME hasn't weighed in yet.

Here's Wikip*dia's page for it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressive_asphyxia#Compressive_asphyxia)

[ZombieHorde]

18. Compressive asphyxia and auto-erotic asphyxiation are two very different things.

Though I do know a guy who has used compressive asphyxia in an auto-erotic way. He highly suggests that activity, but I have not tried it.

[ColbertWatcher]

20. OK. n/t

[sandnsea]

10. Uh, he was trampled, regardless

of what caused his death.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. No one knows yet if anyone even stepped on him. n/t

[sandnsea]

14. He was under 2,000 people

who broke through the door jam - but we don't know if he was stepped on.

Why are you going down this line? It makes no sense.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. "Why are you going down this line?" What I'm saying is we don't know yet.

Look at the pictures.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4554275&mesg_id=4554814

He could have been crushed into one of those corners.

[sandnsea]

17. Employees tried to get to him

Yes we do know. Read more articles, and no I won't google them up for you.

[ColbertWatcher]

19. I don't need you to google anything for me.

Perhaps you should read more about crowd control. I posted some links in post #3.

[sandnsea]

25. What's that got to do with what happened

The guy was trampled. We know that.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. "The guy was trampled. We know that." No, we do not know that.

We do not know the cause of death until an autopsy is performed.

Until we know where the body was initially recovered, do we know if anyone even stepped on him.

[Donnachaidh]

31. are you suggesting he dropped dead from SHOCK?

Come on! The crowd rushed in, went over him, and he's DEAD. Are you going to nitpick wording when all the reports are already saying what happened? The autopsy is only going to prove what has already been admitted.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

36. Even if he did, he was still trampled

There is no question about that.

[ColbertWatcher]

40. There IS a question about that and won't be settled until the ME's report is released. n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

39. I posted links that discusses "compressive asphixia." Calm down. n/t

[yardwork]

27. Eyewitnesses reported that he was knocked down and stepped on.

I think that the news media are using the eyewitness accounts of the other employees who were there.

[ColbertWatcher]

29. I'm going to wait for the ME's report. n/t

[Two Americas]

34. not necessarily

"Virtually all crowd deaths are due to compressive asphyxia and not the 'trampling' reported by the news media."

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Fruin%20-%20causes.htm

[sandnsea]

35. Did I refer to cause of death?

No. I said we do know he was trampled because co-workers said so.

[Two Americas]

38. understood

Keep in mind that in a crowd stampede situation, people have no choice but to move and cannot see what is ahead of them or below them until it is too late. Yes, people get walked on in a crowd stampede disaster. I experienced this once. But many of the posts on these threads claim, or at the very least imply, that people were intentionally trampling other people. That is not what happens in these situations.

[ColbertWatcher]

41. Thank you. I'd also like to add that until the ME releases a report ...

... saying where he fell, we really don't know what happened.

[Two Americas]

43. agreed

The assumptions people are making - that selfish immoral people intentionally trampled someone and killed them for the sake of getting a television - are highly speculative at best.

A crowd stampede is the more likely explanation.

[sandnsea]

44. We know he was under the feet of a crowd

and we know that the definition of being under the feet of a herd of mammals is trampled.

[Two Americas]

45. not arguing with that

...

[ColbertWatcher]

46. All we know is that he was untrained and unsupervised.

Some reports say he was alone when he opened the doors and others say he was not.

I'm going to wait for the ME on this one.

[sandnsea]

But the guy was still trampled

There is no question about that and that's all I've said in this thread.

[Two Americas]

47. yep

I don't think anyone is disptuing that. Colbert Watcher did say that it was regrettable that the media kept saying he was trampled, because we don't know the cause of death. "Trampled" does not necessarily mean "killed."

Clearly, the media is at the very least implying that the man was trampled to death, don't you think?

But you are right, eyewitnesses say he was trampled.

[ColbertWatcher]

48. There are questions about whether he was trampled or not.

If you look at the photos of the layout of the store, you can see a corner between the two doors.

Until the ME says what happened there is no way to know where he was when he died.

[Danmel]

2. We bought a new TV this weekend

Our old TV has been on the fritz for months after we had a power surge and we just kept putting it off waiting for sales.

But this is how we did it- on Saturday afternoon, we took an ad from one of the large chains into a local merchant who matched the price. We paid and will pick up the tv on Monday. No lines, no pushing, no shoving and we supported an independent local businessman. Civilized, convenient and good for our community,

I encourage people to patronize local businesses whenever possible- they are your neighbors and you don't have to risk being stampeded over.

[JI7]

24. did you know they would match the price or you asked them ?

[Danmel]

32. No- we went in and asked

It was a local place near a Sears, Best Buy PC Richards and 6th Avenue ELctronics. They matched the price-

[ColbertWatcher]

3. Also, more info about crowd control ...

Special thanks to DUer dmesg for the idea.

1. the first one is from a security company that specializes in crowd control (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html). Pay special attention to the section called "Stampedes."

2. this next one is a memorial site for people who died in Hillsborough stadium in 1989 (http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm)

3. this final link is a DU link to some pictures of the Wal-Mart store in Valley Stream before and after Damour's death. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4554275&mesg_id=4554814)

[Two Americas]

33. thanks

Stampedes

"Crowd forces can reach levels that almost impossible to resist or control. Virtually all crowd deaths are due to compressive asphyxia and not the "trampling" reported by the news media. Evidence of bent steel railings after several fatal crowd incidents show that forces of more than 4500 N (1,000 lbs.) occurred. Forces are due to pushing, and the domino effect of people leaning against each other.

"Compressive asphyxia has occurred from people being stacked up vertically, one on top of the other, or horizontal pushing and leaning forces. In the Ibrox Park soccer stadium incident, police reported that the pile of bodies was 3 m (10 feet) high. At this height, people on the bottom would experience chest pressures of 3600-4000 N (800-900 lbs.), assuming half the weight of those above was concentrated in the upper body area.

"Horizontal forces sufficient to cause compressive asphyxia would be more dynamic as people push off against each other to obtain breathing space. In the Cincinnati rock concert incident, a line of bodies was found approximately 9 m (30 ft) from a wall near the entrance. This indicates that crowd pressures probably came from both directions as rear ranks pressed forward and front ranks pushed off the wall.

"Experiments to determine concentrated forces on guardrails due to leaning and pushing have shown that force of 30% to 75% of participant weight can occur. In a US National Bureau of Standards study of guardrails, three persons exerted a leaning force of 792 N (178 lbs.) and 609 N (137 lbs.) pushing. <9> In a similar Australian Building Technology Centre study, three persons in a combined leaning an pushing posture developed a force of 1370 N (306 lbs.). <10> This study showed that under a simulated "panic", 5 persons were capable of developing a force of 3430 N (766 lbs.)."

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Fruin%20-%20causes.htm

The Causes and Prevention of Crowd Disasters

by John J. Fruin, Ph.D., P.E. United States of America

(Originally presented at the First International Conference on Engineering for Crowd Safety, London, England, March 1993. Elsevier Science Publishers B.B. © 1993)

[ColbertWatcher]

42. You're welcome. n/t

[PeaceNikki]

4. Some Wal-Marts did the number system, too.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. Links or it didn't happen. n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

5. I should have posted this first: Thank you for posting. k+r, n/t

[daninthemoon]

7. should be a law. long time ago, i was at the front of a crowd at a

festival seating Cheap Trick concert. when the doors open, and the crowd surges forward, there is no way for it to ease back. after the cicncinnati deaths at a who concert, festival seating was over. this corporate Christmas practice of black friday door busters comes under the same category. of course they need to hand out numbers. maybe that would make too much sense.

[ColbertWatcher]

9. From Wal-Mart's point of view, it doesn't make for good PR. n/t

[DBoon]

26. someone died for that "good PR"

nt

[ColbertWatcher]

30. Wal-Mart is hoping that more PR will keep their big-wigs out of prison. n/t

[barbtries]

23. i've been there too,

at a jethro tull concert. i remember just picking my feet off the ground and being carried. i hated every second of it. this was at least 30 years ago.

[earthlover]

50. So should Jethro Tull have been imprisoned? Seems to be the anti-Walmart illogic

[hlthe2b]

11. I don't suppose this will convince those for whom WalMart

"can do no wrong" that just maybe there are strategies to be employeed in crowd control--well established strategies-- and WalMart was negligent in not doing so.

(nah, that's too much to ask) We're doomed to 40 more posts telling DUers how stupid they are for blaming WalMart when it was clearly (and solely) the result of the "lack of self-control and compassion" among those in front of a frenzied mob...:eyes:

[ColbertWatcher]

15. I posted some links about crowd control in post #3 above. n/t

[JI7]

21. the point of it is to get people to buy other stuff, with number system people would leave

if they know they have no chance of getting those deals. that's why i'm not sure things will change much.

of course i could be wrong, if people are already there they might as well go in and look around and maybe buy something.

or maybe they can do some kind of raffle thing where people are given tickets with some codes some time before black friday. and they only know if they will get the deal if they come in any time during black friday. that way they can still get people to come to the store but since those with the "winning" tickets can use it anytime throughout the day you wont have everyone get there at the same time. and maybe they can also open a little later.

[ColbertWatcher]

22. That is one way a responsible corporation handles crowds.

But, as we have seen, Wal-Mart is not a responsible corporation.

[sandnsea]

37. No, if you're far back in the line

You're still not going to get to any of the hottest items first. I don't think it would make any difference if you let people in quickly or slowly. The people in the front of the line get the first picks, just like they do now.

[flvegan]

49. In response, Circuit City will be handing out guns to shoppers while in line.

(this is for next year, of course)

"Self-policed Black Friday Door Busters" they're calling it.

Have to hand the gun in before you leave. Probably when you show them your receipt.