What is the chance that Obama will shut down the SOA?

[JanMichael]

This is an American Institution (1948 to today) that teaches fascists from foreign soils how to torture for fun and intimidation (because immediate intelligence is almost impossible) "insurgents", "intransigents", cranks, nuns, Leftists and other "undesirables".

10 to one? One to one?

http://www.soaw.org/

[ulysses]

1. outright? probably not great.

Maybe a little more oversight? Hard to say - is it even on the radar?

[JanMichael]

2. Radar? Hardly. Most Americans could give a shit. nt

[ulysses]

4. most Americans have no idea it even exists,

much less why it's there or the history of our involvement in Latin America. For all our posturing, we're not an especially moral bunch.

[Dis Pater]

13. Obama knows it exists, are you saying that if he doesn't close it

he's not especially moral?

[ulysses]

14. greater pragmatists than I keep telling me

that the presidency is about the realm of the possible, not morals. So, no.

The rest of us, however, have no such excuse.

[Dis Pater]

18. The President is in charge and could end it. It is not out of his hands

The rest of us can't shut it down, what are you saying?

[silverojo]

19. Maybe there are powers above him that won't allow it to close?

Just a thought....

[Dis Pater]

21. He was just elected with 62 million plus voters

who could be above him? The Illuminati? b*sh?

[Recursion]

3. None, because that's nowhere near all WHINSEC does

We all hope he'll get the Army to change a lot of the counterinsurgency curriculum, but it's grossly simplistic to describe WHINSEC the way you did.

[ulysses]

5. what else does it do?

And at the risk of invoking Godwin, isn't your argument a little like pointing out the scientific advances made at Dachau?

[Recursion]

7. No, and I think that's an absurd comparison

Though we can let Godwin go on that.

WHINSEC teaches management, budgeting, parachuting, logistics, supply, International human rights law (yes), conflict resolution, economics, and a lot of other things including how to get people to confess by shocking their genitals, or whatever.

If you think closing the school will stop the genital-shocking in the countries to the south of us, fine. If you think we have no business influencing the training of our neighbors and at least ostensible allies to the south, fine. But closing WHINSEC won't stop human rights abuses, and will cut off one of the only avenues we do have for influencing the officer corps of Latin American countries. Reform it, revamp or for that matter rip out the counterinsurgency course, but to me shutting the whole thing down is posturing and counterproductive in the long run.

[JackRiddler]

9. Given the history of US influence on the officer corps of Latin American countries...

Why would you want to maintain it? Please don't tell me because we could use this tool for the good, without at least acknowledging that the actual history completely contradicts such a notion.

[Recursion]

16. Because I think it is doing some good

Because I think it does help a lot of junior officers make their militaries more efficient, less corrupt, and more generally amenable to the idea of the rule of law.

I also don't think somebody like d'Aubuisson would have become a Washington-like statesman if he just hadn't taken that radio communications class at SOA. You want me to say the CIA guys that taught the classes on how to blowtorch people's faces should go to a jail where they get those same techniques tried on them? Hell yes they should.

I don't even really care about this very much; like I said I just find the arguments for and against SOA frustratingly simplistic. This is a very complex situation where we've already fucked up a whole lot of things and nothing is as easy or as simple as activists make it out to be.

[ulysses]

10. listen to yourself.

WHINSEC teaches management, budgeting, parachuting, logistics, supply, International human rights law (yes), conflict resolution, economics, and a lot of other things including how to get people to confess by shocking their genitals, or whatever.

Are you kidding me? Budgeting and parachuting classes make this place ok, and torture is a "or whatever" sidebar? Fucking hell. The most militant madrassa probably teaches algebra.

If you think closing the school will stop the genital-shocking in the countries to the south of us, fine.

I don't, for the record.

If you think we have no business influencing the training of our neighbors and at least ostensible allies to the south, fine.

Define "our" and "allies". Given our track record there, I find the continued practice a little dicey, yeah.

But closing WHINSEC won't stop human rights abuses, and will cut off one of the only avenues we do have for influencing the officer corps of Latin American countries.

Question: why is it that we even *want* to influence the officer corps of Latin American countries?

[Recursion]

12. I am

Are you kidding me? Budgeting and parachuting classes make this place ok, and torture is a "or whatever" sidebar? Fucking hell. The most militant madrassa probably teaches algebra.

Which is why I don't advocate shutting down the Afghani education system, either. Which part of "reform or even remove the counterinsurgency classes" made it sound like I thought the torture was acceptable?

Define "our" and "allies". Given our track record there, I find the continued practice a little dicey, yeah.

Name one part of US-Latin American relations that isn't dicey and doesn't have Latin American blood all over our hands? If we want to talk about human rights violations we need to look at our entire economic policy towards the continent, not one school that has mixed good and bad things. Like I said: keep the school, kill the counterinsurgency part of the curriculum. Then talk about our agriculture policy, which is a lot more destructive to Latin America than this school ever was.

Question: why is it that we even *want* to influence the officer corps of Latin American countries?

Because we exported to them a form of Constitution that has shown itself sadly weak at preventing military dictatorships. Because all things considered it's probably better for us if we do it rather than China. Because we've turned those countries into corrupt, violent mockeries of democratic republics and we have some responsibility to clean up the mess we made to the extent that those countries will still listen to us.

[ulysses]

17. .

Which part of "reform or even remove the counterinsurgency classes" made it sound like I thought the torture was acceptable?

Didn't they reform it when they changed the name? Why keep the school at all? The other stuff can't be taught outside the auspices of one school on one base?

If we want to talk about human rights violations we need to look at our entire economic policy towards the continent

True enough.

not one school that has mixed good and bad things.

Or not *just* the school. Why not start with it?

Because we exported to them a form of Constitution that has shown itself sadly weak at preventing military dictatorships.

No. We exported a weak form of a perfectly fine constitution and then exploited them for our own gain. We've certainly made a mess of things there, but I don't see how keeping the SOA helps make up for that.

[roody]

15. To quote Condaleeza at the opening of the new

SOA type school in El Salvador, they "make Latin America safe for foreign investment."

[roody]

6. The house of representatives voted on a bill to shut it down

last Feb. or March. It lost by 6 votes. 35 of those who voted no will not be in the new Congress. Get involved in the legislative work! www.soaw.org

[Stardust]

8. I just learned that my congressman, Rep. Howard Berman (D CA-280) voted to shut it

down. I am very proud of him, for a change. I'm going to write him and give him and atta-boy. I bug him enough when he votes poorly.

The whole place has a bad smell. We'd be better off done with it. If, indeed, something worthy does go on there, it's time to move the operation somewhere else.

[proud patriot]

20. then it needs to be brought up again and again

until we get the votes we need .

[roody]

22. This will happen in 2009.

[kentuck]

11. I hope he gets his lieutenants to do this job...

and that he stays out of the fracas. :-)