Do you think the United States is the worst country ever in the history of the world?

[XemaSab]

Do you think we've never done anything good? Do you think every interaction we've had with every other country has been oppressive? Do you think we're the most racist country ever created? And do you think we're inherently corrupt?

If you think these things, why do you live here? Why don't you leave and go to a liberated, enlightened, perfect country like England, Spain, or Belgium? :shrug:

[theoldman]

1. Are you a Republican?

This the kind of talk I hear from them.

[XemaSab]

18. Yes, I'm a republican

Only republicans love America. :eyes:

[amdezurik]

29. yeah, the way O.J. "loved" his ex-wife...

[leftstreet]

2. A love it or leave it thread

We haven't had one of these in like 1 day.

[zeos3]

95. AMERICA!!!!11!1!

FUCK YEAH!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz3Qs6AVxAE

[leftstreet]

111. Fuck Yeah!!!!!1111

[LeftishBrit]

3. No. Even though I live in England anyway.

Who *does* think it's the worst country ever?

[davidinalameda]

10. Andorra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra

[XemaSab]

23. According to this article

they dragged World War ONE out until 1957! :o

[davidinalameda]

38. nuke the bastards

:nuke:

[Jackpine Radical]

47. Andorra indeed! Remember Pete Seeger singing this?:

I want to go to Andorra, Andorra, Andorra,
I want to go to Andorra, it's a place I adore,
They spent four dollars and ninety cents
On armaments and their defense,
Did you ever hear of such confidence?
Andorra, hip hurrah!

In the mountains of the Pyrenees
There's an independent state,
Its population five thousand souls,
And I think they're simply great.
One hundred and seventy square miles big
And it's awf'lly dear to me.
Spends less than five dollars on armaments,
And this I've got to see.

(Chorus)

It's governed by a council,
All gentle souls and wise,
They've only five dollars for armaments
And the rest for cakes and pies;
They didn't invest in a tommy gun
Or a plane to sweep the sky,
But they bought some blanks for their cap pistols
To shoot on their Fourth of July.

(Chorus)

They live by the arts of farm and field
And by making shoes and hats,
And they haven't got room in their tiny land
For a horde of diplomats;
They haven't got room in their tiny land
For armies to march about,
And if anyone comes with a war budget
They throw the rascals out.

[XemaSab]

54. Pete Seeger kicks ass

n/t

[davidinalameda]

55. nope

:shrug:

:bounce:

[davidinalameda]

4. Happy Thanksgiving

now put down the wine bottle

[ConcernedCanuk]

12. LOL - right - SEVEN questions is just too much in one post.

.
.
.

But as to the FIRST question, consider this

The USA gave the World the nuclear bomb,

and SHOWED us how well it works . . .

Thanks alot . . .

[deadmessengers]

5. I'm not sure I understand the point of this post.

But I'll :popcorn: anyway.

Oh, and just in case: IBTL!!!

[ryanmuegge]

6. Is this Bill O'Reilly?

[ChazII]

8. or Sean Hannity. n/t

[Occulus]

58. Nono. Glenn Beck. n/t

[EFerrari]

7. Even if I did feel that way, I wouldn't leave.

My home is here, my community is here, my mother will die here and my sons are here. :shrug:

[foxfeet]

9. The U.S. is like most other countries on earth.

We have many great qualities and many just-plain-shitty ones. And in between is a whole spectrum. I've lived in another country (Germany) and found both fabulous and appalling aspects of life there. Nothing is black or white.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

11. Heh?

[sandnsea]

13. I would leave, if I could

That said, we created rule by the people. We threw off the rule of Kings and Queens. That is now the model of government for the world. We should never forget that. And that part of that freedom is the ability to produce your own income. We should never give it up. But we should also have a better system for providing community services like health care.

[npk]

14. Ask me this in another 100 years.

Oh wait never mind. I don't think I will live another 100 years. This country is still very young in the global sense. Thousands of people immigrate to this country every day so the country can't be all that bad, can it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts

absolutely. Who is in favor of absolute power.... you? I doubt it. Maintining a military that can no doubt kick the crap out of entire planets all by itself while citizens go without healthcare is a bit much. This message was created by an imperfect person in an imperfect country.

Don't click on it: www.ThirdWorldTraveler.com

[Juche]

16. Oh yeah

I'd rank north korea second though in term of evil. But yeah we are the worstest.

My concern is that when Jesus returns on a cloud of glory for the second coming, will he be landing in America like I always hoped or will he land somewhere else. I am worried he may touch down in a place like Holland now because he'd feel more comfortable there. So yeah, that scares me and keeps me up at night.

[BB1]

44. I doubt it. I live in Holland, and we're

most likely too loose on standards. Our fundie Secretary of Youth and Families (I kid you not, we have a Secretary for that) actually wants to know, in the near future, how your kids wear their pubic hair. If any. "We need input from youngsters to help them find their way in life."

Otherwise, I'd welcome him. he can rent a room, if he likes, as long as he doesn't want to pay for it with 'his body'. Or cheap, fake wine.

[DutchLiberal]

59. Actually, that's not true. That story is a hoax.

The 'pubic hair story' was created (deliberately or not) by the right-wing opposition. But it's not true, I found out today reading the newspapers.

But generally, you're right. Holland is fast becoming more and more like the US, and I'm sorry to all DU'ers, but that's not a compliment. More and more politicians want to shut down coffee shops and make possession and use of marijuana a criminal act. More and more politicians want to adopt the American model for a 'war on drugs'.

More important: we are losing our privacy by the minute. Law after law has been passed to diminish it, and soon new laws will go into effect, meaning the government can check where we went with the bus, train, cab or even our own cars.

But all that aside, it's still much better to live here in Holland, I think. I'm sure you would say the same about your own country.

[Raineyb]

122. Hmmmm. I might be inclined to say that it was better to live here (US) if we had a

reasonable health care system. I'm sorry but for anyone to end up in bankruptcy because of medical bills is uncivilized and disgusting. We really shouldn't be crowing about how great we are while people have to decide between life saving health care and having a roof over their heads or food. When that's fixed ask me again my answer would probably change.

Regards

[provis99]

17. Hmm. Well its probably the most hated country in the history of the world

That must account for something. Just think: an American can go into any other country on the planet and there will be mobs of people who want to kill him. Quite an accomplishment for a country only a little over 2 centuries old.

[Paladin]

19. Do I Think This Thread Is Needless Flamebait? Definitely. (n/t)

[stray cat]

20. Not in the least

[Truth2Tell]

21. Why do you think

England, Spain, and Belgium are liberated, enlightened and perfect? :shrug:

That's kinda weird.

[G_j]

22. I think jazz is one of humanity's finest accomplishments

can I stay?

[superduperfarleft]

24. Do you realize what it takes to emigrate?

Lots and lots of money, and time that a lot of people don't have. Well, of course you don't know, otherwise you never would have asked such a stupid question.

Not sure why I bothered to respond to this piece of flamebait anyway.

Love it or leave it, indeed. I'll burn a flag in your honor this weekend.

[XemaSab]

31. If you were going to emigrate, which country would you go to?

:shrug:

[superduperfarleft]

36. Hawaii. n/t

[ConcernedCanuk]

52. Hawaii is a STATE, not a country - correct me if I'm wrong . . .

.
.
.

[superduperfarleft]

56. It was a joke. n/t

edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7932444

[Number23]

69. Good God....

Hawaii is a STATE, not a country - correct me if I'm wrong

[CreekDog]

99. yeah!

just like Africa.

[CreekDog]

98. now that's good satire!

:rofl:

[Gwendolyn]

68. Yeah, it takes resourcefulness, and will.

When you really want to be somewhere else, human ingenuity often finds a way.

And when all else fails, there's always internationalmatch.com.

[superduperfarleft]

73. And poor people are poor because they're lazy.

As someone who's actually been through the visa process, you can take your libertarian pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps garbage and shove it up your ass. It's not about ingenuity, it's about money and the color of your skin.

[Gwendolyn]

75. I've lived in several countries...

...moved once when I was poorer than sh*t. If someone is truly despairing, I would think they would do anything to get out, even if it takes time, and whatever plotting and machinations are required. Not everyone is successful, but many are.

And that tired, old, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps criticism anytime someone makes a comment regarding the taking of some course of action, is exactly that. Old and played out. Pathetic.

[superduperfarleft]

76. Then talk to immigrants from Morocco or Vietnam.

Immigrants from Morocco or Pakistan or Syria etc. etc. etc. are basically humored until they give up, and women attempting to emigrate from Vietnam are brought to tears with accusations that they are money-grubbing whores. Don't ask for a link, this is from talking to people from these countries who have attempted this while my wife was trying to emigrate from Canada. We were lucky in that it only took about a year and several thousand dollars (and that we were white), both in that it was relatively cheap for us compared to most people and in that we had the money to do so.

But then again, if you jump the wall because your family is starving so that Americans can have cheap corn and sweatshop-produced crap, you'll have equally-"progressive" DUers demanding that you be deported.

It may be easy for you to come up with the thousands of dollars it takes to legally emigrate, but not everyone is so fortunate.

[Gwendolyn]

77. I was talking about leaving here and going elsewhere.

In keeping with the thread theme. Especially if someone is in their 20's and really hates living here, there are ways to get overseas.

[superduperfarleft]

78. Canada requires several thousands in savings to get there.

Germany won't hire most foreigners unless they have specific skills. I'm more familiar with the immigration requirements for the US, but most other countries aren't that different. The fact remains that it's just not a matter of picking up and moving to another country. It requires money and time that many people are not fortunate enough to have.

Once again, your position reflects your privilege (despite your claims of being "poor"). Most people who hate their situation here are in no more of a position to "leave" than the people who stayed during Hurricane Katrina. And I say this as someone who is fortunate enough to be able to move to Canada in a few years.

[Gwendolyn]

82. I was talking about scrounging a plane ticket somehow...

... and working for cash and tips at some transient job in whatever country takes your fancy. It's not like it hasn't been done before, and maybe if you're lucky, you fall in love with someone and settle down. If not, you come back in a year or two, and start over. And I was talking about people who really have such a loathing for the current environment here, the state of our politics etc... If that's the case, it might be worth it to pick up and be a bohemian elsewhere for awhile.

[superduperfarleft]

87. And what if someone has children?

I have several cats and a dog that live with me. How am I supposed to just buy a plane ticket to whatever company takes my fancy? I have non-human mouths to feed.

You should really quit now, you're only proving my point more and more each time you post.

[Gwendolyn]

106. You are too much... now it's about cats and dogs!!

:rofl:

The only point I made is that there are avenues to get out. Save for years, choose a career that facilitates travel - be it teaching english, banking, arts-related gigs, etc - go to an international dating site, join a global volunteer group, slip in under the radar/work for cash and hope for the best... there are ex-pat sites by the dozen joining people from London to Prague to wherever, so people are doing it.

Not everyone is successful, but if you loathe and despise where you come from so much, even living for years with fruitless hopefulness is better than swimming a lifetime in bitterness and hate.

[superduperfarleft]

107. When you revert to emoticons, you've lost the argument.

My point is not about specifically cats, dogs, or children, it's getting you to recognize that idiotic statements like "If you hate it so much, leave!" is not realistic for many people. Just because you're able to do it doesn't mean everyone else is, and the fact that you are able to is a PRIVILEGE that many people don't have. Instead of laughing at it, try having a little empathy for someone else's situation.

I know, I know, silly me for attempting to put myself in someone else's shoes before I passed judgment. Crazy, I know.

[Gwendolyn]

108. I never once said "if you hate it so much, leave." Not once.

And you're making a leap in saying that I have no empathy. You find it revolting that people might find joy in celebrating Thanksgiving due to its ignoble political beginnings. I think it's a great holiday in that many people get to enjoy their first decent hot meal in months because its one of the few times a year those who have, open their wallets. I guess we both know what shoes we're wearing.

I'm not reverting to emotions at all, but you did give me a good giggle. No of course not every single person who hates their country gets to leave, but those who really despise it, are much better off if they at least try. It's far from healthy to wallow in bitterness.

You are under the mistaken assumption that everyone who is poor hates their country, or is aching to get out. Hate for your country requires a political opinion, and many of the poor really don't have the time for that.

And finally, you keep bringing me back into the picture. I've done it, both the "pauper" way, as well as the more comfortable route, and all I have said is that there are options, depending on how much you're willing to lose, and how far you're willing to go, ex. marriage. I used my experience to throw out ideas, and if there is someone out there who does want to go, hope I helped.

[pitohui]

118. your suggestion to marry for the money is fairly ugly tho

do you honestly believe you "helped?"

our own mothers told us it was as easy to love a rich man as a poor man, but some of us actually prefer not to be whores, which is what sex for money is at the end of the day and after all the nice words

no you haven't helped, you've suggested the OLDEST trick in the book

[Gwendolyn]

119. Who on earth said anything about marry for money?

Lots of people hook up over the internet, even on message boards like this. There are lots of romantic stories about people from opposite ends of the earth meeting and marrying that way. Other people, knowing where they would like to settle, like the Netherlands for example, might use one of those global dating sites to meet people who already live where they want to go. People who've been working or living abroad might meet someone they care to be with, and so even if s/he's on a short term visa, or under the radar, well, problem solved. How you got to "marry for money" is puzzling.

[pitohui]

117. ah so you suggest sleeping around for "tips" and then "falling in love/marrying the richest dude

yeah, okay, i'm sure if you're 20 and beautiful and disease free, it works out for some people

in other cases, as the story goes, those who marry for money end up paying for it

i can't believe that basically being a whore is your suggestion, even tho you phrase it nicely by saying "bohemian" but that's what you seem to mean since working for "cash tips" is not a reality in many parts of the world outside the usa

[Gwendolyn]

120. Wow!

Just wow!

There are plenty of off the radar jobs to be had... waitressing, street musician, construction, tutoring, music lessons, nannying, cleaning person... there's just lots!!! To me bohemian means going somewhere with a backpack and no money, moving in with roommates, and throwing yourself at the world. Not necessarily throwing yourself into bed. That's hilarious.

I agree that it's much harder, without a job, to do move away when you're forty, but when I said "hope I helped" I was referring to thinking creatively, and not giving up. Going through the normal application procedures is long and arduous, but there may be another way. Since when is hopefulness something to be disdained?

[pitohui]

116. ah "someone in their 20s"

that is quite a horse of another color, who doesn't want a young healthy person who is willing to work who is in their 20s, but once in your 40s, try to emigrate to some country that offers a decent national health care program and watch how fast you're laughed out of the country

the OP did not have anything to suggest that you were only addressing the disaffected youth, we all know that young people have mobility, it's the older folk who have issues -- you have to have the funds to buy the right of residency and, even then, don't expect to work, there are several latin american nations where i could buy the right to live but i would never be able to work there so what funds i have would have to last me the rest of my life, not gonna happen since our retirement has already been vanished by collapsing economy/stock market

[Gwendolyn]

121. The OPer wrote this thread in response to another...

... I asked about it somewhere in this thread. Some of the replies in that original thread were over and above the usual criticism and disgust, and bordered on hatred and maybe despair. I guess the OP was addressing that in saying that maybe if it's really so bad, one should try and look elsewhere. I only responded when someone in this subthread said that was impossible for mainly the reasons you state. It's just my opinion that if someone is so filled with loathing for where they live, even going through the motions of trying to be elsewhere is far more healthy and liberating than marinating in one's bile for a lifetime. That's where my posts come from, and they may be naive, but I have some experience, and shared it. End of soap opera script.

On second thought, you're just baiting the noob-ulous, aren't you? :dunce:

[tkmorris]

25. Yes. Yes I do.

Is that what you wanted to hear? What is the purpose of this nonsense?

Criticism is just that. Criticism. Toughen the fuck up and deal with it. Christ, you sound like Sean Hannity here.

[stillcool]

26. When I think of world history..

and the empires that have come and gone, we seem to behave in a predictable manner. I think the Bush Administration bet the farm on Iraq, and covered their bets by looting whatever else they could. Maybe they did us a favor by making empire no longer sustainable and accelerating the decline. I just wonder what the map will look like when all is said and done.

[gristy]

27. what an odd post

1. I doubt you will find few if any people in the country who agree with your multiple premises, let alone here at DU.
2. Your post is simply a variation on "America - love it or leave it", which isn't going to get you very far here.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

28. I think you might be mistaking this for free Repukelick

Love it or leave it? How seventies.

[Art_from_Ark]

72. And '60s

"Love it or leave it" was a favorite slogan used by John Birchers to deride people who expressed opposition to the Vietnam War.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. !

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:toast:

[Evoman]

32. Not even fucking close. But it's the only one you can have any effect on,.

That's why criticizing it is important.

[XemaSab]

35. Criticizing America is important

but America is not all bad.

I think it's equally important to look at the good things we've done, and try to learn from those things as well as from the bad things.

[CreekDog]

100. right on

and if you can say that while living in Redding...:hide:

nvm. ;)

[madrchsod]

33. no.......far from it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. See Lord Acton's axiom for an explanation of why America is now a pariah.

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[Gwendolyn]

dupe n/t

[Gwendolyn]

37. Is this thread the result of all the hatred and bile that's been spilled onto

some of the Thanksgiving threads over the last few days? I saw your posts on one that was just a long scroll of seething and loathing. I found it kind of shocking to discover as well, that people really do have such visceral, intense hatred... and such boiling anger over issues that are far from the end of the world. I don't know either that people whose hearts are so blackened will ever be happy, no matter what.

I smell of onions and turkey broth. Happy Thanksgiving! :)

[XemaSab]

39. Yes, this is a response to that

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too! :hi:

[Neshanic]

40. What do you think? I am curious to know where on your scale you are.

[XemaSab]

45. Here's my answers:

Do you think the United States is the worst country ever in the history of the world? No, I have to say Nazi Germany would be the worst... that we know of. Other horrible countries would be Iraq under Saddam, Afghanistan under the Taliban, North Korea, China, and the USSR under Stalin. We're not perfect, but we're far from the worst.

Do you think we've never done anything good? We've done bad things, sure, but I'd say winning World War II, for example, would be a high point. More recently, our involvement in the former Yugoslavia was a good thing we did.

Do you think every interaction we've had with every other country has been oppressive? No. Yeah, we've attacked some other countries we should not have attacked, and we've done a lot of other sleazy things, but other countries choose to trade with us, and especially with the end of the Bush regime, we DO have friends around the world that we would not have if we were uniformly evil.

Do you think we're the most racist country ever created? No. Virtually any colonial power will have a legacy of racism. There are racist countries around the world peopled by folks of every skin color.

And do you think we're inherently corrupt? Probably, but we're not as corrupt as a LOT of third world countries. Do we have a bribe jar at customs in our airports? I didn't think so. I think corruption is probably the human condition, and since we're powerful, our corruption is more hypocritical than that of most places.

If you think these things, why do you live here? I was born here, I love my country, and I consider it my duty as an American to try to make my country a better place. I also think it's important to celebrate the GREAT things about America, and work to change the less-than-great things.

Why don't you leave and go to a liberated, enlightened, perfect country like England, Spain, or Belgium? I picked those three countries because they all have a horrible legacy of colonial oppression that rivals the darker moments in our own history. No country on earth is perfect.

If I had to put America on a point scale, I'd probably give us a 6. A LOT of room for improvement, but also a lot to be proud of.

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. Steady on... England? We may be accused of a lot of things, but I

don't think being enlightened would be one of them.

[rucky]

42. Yes, America is the worst country ever.

:eyes:

[shari]

43. Nope.

There is a lot of good in this country, and it's ours, for better or worse. Do we embrace our friends and family when they are doing well, and turn our backs on them when they are not doing so well? Some do and others try to do what they can to help and support and make things better. All it takes to really appreciate this country is to go to a third-world country......then come home and count your blessings. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[XemaSab]

46. Happy Thanksgiving!

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[treestar]

48. No, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were worse

And people can't just leave - other countries have immigration restrictions, too.

If we don't like what our country is doing, we work to change it. This country was on a wrong path. We don't have to leave it, we can stay and try to change it.

[XOKCowboy]

49. Oh hell no....

Go to Windsor Castle or the British Museum and look at what the British Empire plundered from a large part of the world. Or look at the Crusades or the Inquisition. The Bataan Death March.

Nope the US is a newcomer to the villain role in the world picture. I hope that there is still time to repair that image.

[zorahopkins]

53. We Had Slaves AND

Not only did the US have slavery, but it also killed millions of indiginous people -- and it took their lands BY FORCE!

Until we give back the lands WE stole from the Native Americans, there can be NO JUSTICE!

[XOKCowboy]

62. We don't have the history to even start to compete...

with other nations and dynasties who did the same but at a much larger scale for a longer period of time. Oh and my grandmother was a full-blood Lenapi.

[cali]

67. The history of the entire world is one of conquests

Is that good or bad? Actually that's the wrong question to ask. It simply is. And giving back the land is just fucking ludicrous. Living up to treaties we signed with Native Americans and paying reparations is not. It'll be hard to achieve, but it's not shithouse rat crazy.

[zorahopkins]

50. This Says It All

This says it all:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4545699

[XemaSab]

51. Agreed

n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

66. The Beatles, I think, said it best.

"but if you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao... you aint gonna make it with anyone, anyhow"

[McCamy Taylor]

57. England, Spain and the rest are just as guilty. Colonialism then and the power of the $$$ now give

the countries of western Europe tremendous clout over the poor countries of the world.

No one is innocent!

[47of74]

89. There's plenty of guilt to go around...

There's plenty of guilt to go around.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Did someone here actually say that?

Eh, Fuck 'em.

We're not perfect, but this is a great country, particularly when it lives up to its ideals. :patriot:

Sure, George W. Bush barely eked out a couple stolen victories, but Barack Obama also just won a decisive victory.

The human race, for that matter, isn't perfect, but we have a bucketload full of potential, if we can dig our way out of crusty fears and superstitions, get our heads out of our asses and into the universe. Despite our many problems, I truly believe the future offers truly infinite possibilities for those with enough bravery, smarts and gumption to move forward.

That's my Thanksgiving message, and I'm sticking to it.

[applegrove]

61. Obviously America was a world leader in terms of democracy & freedom (for some).

But there comes a time when any country needs a renaissance (Michelle Obamas SS name). You can't go 300 years on the same ideas. You need to renew yourself. Canada did so by getting our constitution (finally) in the early 1980s.

Obama I believe is a transformational President. He'll do great things for your country. And America can finally move ahead and lead the world again.

[Two Americas]

63. yes and no

Most activists, when they say "America" mean "the ruling class," because as gentrified relatively upscale and successful people they identify with the ruling class. They say "we" did such and such, when they mean "the ruling class" did such and such. Most blue collar people say "they" when referring to the ruling class, and think of "America" as their family, friends and neighbors, not the ruling class.

While many came here to be free from persecution and oppression, some came here to be free to persecute and oppress others. Many others were brought against their will. Others were already living here, and brutally mistreated.

We have to be clear about which of the two Americas we are talking about before we can answer your question.

Your "love it or leave it" suggestion is highly reactionary and inflammatory.

[Vattel]

64. I don't love any country,

but I love living in the US; so I think I'll stay. I care as much about Mexicans and Chinese and Sudanese as I do about Americans (except my American family and friends). I have nothing against patriotism, just like I don't care if someone is loyal to their hometown or their culural group or their bioshphere or their hemisphere if that's what trips their trigger. Personally, though, I am not patriotic. I do have great respect for the U.S. Constitution (even though it has many flaws). And I like Jazz and the Blues and Rock and basketball and baseball and football (not soccer) and apple pie and Los Angeles and Mark Twain and . . .

[mudesi]

65. Did I go to freerepublic by accident?

What a vile OP. :puke:

[dysfunctional press]

70. not nearly so- we've only been around for 232 years...

and as much as some people would seem to like it to be so, there have been MUCH more barbaric countries than ours before we showed up. and even since then, nazi germany, imperial japan, stalinist/post-stalinist russia, communist china, probably all wreaked more havoc on the globe than we have.

i stay for the standard of living and quality of life.

[musical_soul]

71. I love the United States.

It's a wonderful country. We get the freedom to vote, and we have freedom of speech. That means people can slam the government's actions if they like. The right to be what you want to be and say what you want to say is what is so great about this country.

Now, I have an urge to listen to "God Bless the USA".

By a conservative, but I still like it because it reminds me of what I like about America.

[superduperfarleft]

74. Quiet, you! Get in your free-speech zone!

And you're clearly not qualified to vote, so just let the Supreme Court do it for you.

[musical_soul]

80. Okay. (Tries to find my free speech cage).

[clspector]

79. American is and has been

principally an idea. Like all nations, we rise of fall upon a large variety if factors, but we are -- for better and worse -- the Shining City Upon the Hill.

It is the IDEA of America that is part and parcel of our greatness. And when we stumble, when we fail to achieve those ideals, we fail ourselves. We are a country devoted to the rule of law, not the rule of some syphilitic, in-bred royalty.

And honestly, we've failed to be that golden dream far more often than we've succeeded. But there must be something in the human psyche that yearns for this idea. This brilliant shining mythology.

And part of that American make-up is the right of *all* Americans to stand up and point out when our country fails to live up to those lofty ideals.

It's not just our right. It's our responsibility. If you think criticising the goverment is a bad thing, then dude, *you're* in the wrong country.

[XemaSab]

85. .

:thumbsup:

[apocalypsehow]

81. It'd be a lot better if weed was legal.

:smoke: :thumbsup:

[ulysses]

83. if I say no, am I obliged to accept that it's the best?

[XemaSab]

84. Not at all, no

:D

[ulysses]

86. then no.

:)

[47of74]

88. No, no, no, no, and no...

No, no, no, no, and no. I'm not one of those love it or leave it types. We've done some bad things over the years. We've been responsible for a lot of misery and suffering from the moment our country was born right up to the current day. But we've also done a lot of good in the world.

And do I think this is flame bait? Yes.

[JackRiddler]

90. No. I think you've managed to put a lie to the old teacher's chestnut...

that there is no such thing as a stupid question.

[Feron]

91. No.

I'm very grateful to be an American and to live in America.

The U.S. certainly isn't perfect, but it's far from being the worst country ever. And we do move forward and fix our mistakes even if we sometimes lag behind others.

[Bucky]

92. Not having seen the posts that ticked you off, I get the impression you're shadow boxing

Anyway, you're supposed to say "Go to Canada." Everyone says Canada.

[XemaSab]

93. Oh, okay

Go to Canada. :P

[Greyhound]

101. Could be here;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4539478#4539723

[anonymous171]

94. IMO America stopped being a "good" country after WWII

[Common Sense Party]

96. It's the best country I've ever been to. Sure, it has its faults...

Britney Spears and Larry the Cable Guy come quickly to mind.

But I cannot imagine a better life anywhere else.

[CreekDog]

97. I can't stop eating this stuff!

:popcorn:

[Greyhound]

102. Still terrorizing those straw men, huh? They don't stand a chance!

Go USA! We're #1!

[old mark]

103. Not even close to the worst, actually has a lot of redeeming features.

Often savaged by those who it has given a lot, because they somehow feel they were entitled to more.

No, I'm a Democrat - I just think that bashing this country needlessly is fucking stupid, as are many of those who do so.

mark

[eridani]

104. No, just too powerful for our own good, and the good of the rest of the world

Post WW II there was the Marshall Plan, which was highly enlightened self-interested altruism of a sort never seen before on the world stage. But then we changed the name of the War Department to the Department of Defense, and the resulting imperial binge has been for the benefit of the world corporate elite, not for the rest of us (including most of our own citizens).


Now the IDEA of America--that's our major gift to the world. We need to wind down the imperialism industry to get back to that idea. Whatever our faults, people have always moved towards it, and their efforts have made the world better.

Let America be America Again
LANGSTON HUGHES 1938
Originally published in Esquire and in the International Worker Order pamphlet A New Song (1938)


Let America be America again. Let it be the dream it used to be. Let it be the pioneer on the plain Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed-- Let it be that great strong land of love Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme That any man be crushed by one above.

(It never was America to me.)

O, let my land be a land where Liberty Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath, But opportunity is real, and life is free, Equality is in the air we breathe.

(There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free.")

Say, who are you that mumbles in the dark? And who are you that draws your veil across the stars?

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart, I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars. I am the red man driven from the land, I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek-- And finding only the same old stupid plan Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

I am the young man, full of strength and hope, Tangled in that ancient endless chain Of profit, power, gain, of grab the land! Of grab the gold! Of grab the ways of satisfying need! Of work the men! Of take the pay! Of owning everything for one's own greed!

I am the farmer, bondsman to the soil. I am the worker sold to the machine. I am the Negro, servant to you all. I am the people, humble, hungry, mean-- Hungry yet today despite the dream. Beaten yet today--O, Pioneers! I am the man who never got ahead, The poorest worker bartered through the years.

Yet I'm the one who dreamt our basic dream In the Old World while still a serf of kings, Who dreamt a dream so strong, so brave, so true, That even yet its mighty daring sings In every brick and stone, in every furrow turned That's made America the land it has become. O, I'm the man who sailed those early seas In search of what I meant to be my home-- For I'm the one who left dark Ireland's shore, And Poland's plain, and England's grassy lea, And torn from Black Africa's strand I came To build a "homeland of the free."

The free?

Who said the free? Not me? Surely not me? The millions on relief today? The millions shot down when we strike? The millions who have nothing for our pay? For all the dreams we've dreamed And all the songs we've sung And all the hopes we've held And all the flags we've hung, The millions who have nothing for our pay-- Except the dream that's almost dead today.

O, let America be America again-- The land that never has been yet-- And yet must be--the land where every man is free. The land that's mine--the poor man's, Indian's, Negro's, ME-- Who made America, Whose sweat and blood, whose faith and pain, Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain, Must bring back our mighty dream again.

Sure, call me any ugly name you choose-- The steel of freedom does not stain. From those who live like leeches on the people's lives, We must take back our land again, America!

O, yes, I say it plain, America never was America to me, And yet I swear this oath-- America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death, The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies, We, the people, must redeem The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers. The mountains and the endless plain-- All, all the stretch of these great green states-- And make America again!

Mindfully.org note: Please view the Flash animation created by Eric Blumrich centered on Hughes' powerful poem of America http://www.ericblumrich.com/pax.html

[Le Taz Hot]

105. Not even close.

And anyone who answers "yes" to that hasn't read history. Having said that, I do believe in holding my country and it's elected officials accountable for their actions. Anything else would be unpatriotic.

[leftofthedial]

109. and the best

[MiniMe]

110. It depends on the time period you are talking about

This thread is flamebait, but I'll answer it anyway.

In general no, the United States has been a great country. However, the country has lost it's way in the last 7.5 years because of terrible leadership and religious extremists.

[DutchLiberal]

113. Make that the last 60 years.

[datasuspect]

112. i think the issue is more complicated than the way your question frames it

good vs. evil reductionism is part of the problem.

[WI_DEM]

114. No, but we certainly aren't perfect either.

[pitohui]

115. from the sound of it zimbawbe is (and i prob. can't even spell it)

that said, there are good reasons why unhappy americans can't leave, it is actually unusually difficult for americans to re-locate, i do have ex-pat relations but it's harder for us than for citizens of other western nations to be allowed to get legal work in other countries

[ileus]

123. America is the devil, until Jan 20th...then we'll be great again.