Should Obama indict George Bush and Dick Cheney for war crimes?

[Dangerman]

[boobooday]

1. The best thing the GOP could do to redeem themselves in the eyes of America

Would be to cooperate in seeing that justice is done against the criminal neo-cons.

[Ohio Joe]

2. I voted yes but...

I'm not certain it should be President Elect Obama himself that starts the charges. Maybe the Justice Department? or an international tribunal? I'm not certain but I see no doubt that charges of war crimes (among other crimes) should be brought.

[wildbilln864]

5. Well said Ohio Joe. nt

:hi:

[wildbilln864]

3. Absolutely!

Hell yes! :grr:

[Breeze54]

4. Obama? Don't you mean the Congress?

:shrug:

[PeaceNikki]

6. Since when is it the President's job to indict?

:shrug:

[cali]

7. oh for the love of reason

the rich fantasy life of DU on display. And hell no he shouldn't. Not that there's any fucking chance in the world that this fever dream is going to happen.

[Sinistrous]

16. Oh yes, by we poor delusioned, who still value such outmoded and outdated

concepts as justice and the rule of law. Thank heaven for such stalwart realists as the mighty cali, who will lead us into the bright new world of moral relativism.

[cali]

18. sorry. Ilive in the real world and I'm familiar with history

and fuck the sanctimonious meaningless preaching. Life isn't fair. Justice sometimes takes decades and often it never comes at all. This is not the best of all possible worlds.

[Sinistrous]

21. I'm glad I don't live in your "real world".

What a brutish place that must be.

[Occam Bandage]

25. Real life is indeed more difficult than just making shit up.

The upside, however, is that people who can figure out the difference between fantasy and reality are rarely disappointed when their fantasies fail to materialize.

[Sinistrous]

27. Now you're babbling again.

In MY real world, criminals are prosecuted every day.

edit: fixed typo.

[cali]

39. lol. but think of all the criminals that aren't prosecuted. And think

of the rich criminals that walk. the real world intrudes.

[Sinistrous]

40. So we are supposed to just roll over and let bush, inc. skate because

justice is not perfect? Nice tight reasoning there.

edit: Conrad Black, Leona Helmsley, Martha Stewart, ...

[cali]

41. The heavy weight of history suggests that justice can be a long time

coming. And I'm not suggesting that's something I find agreeable, just that facts are facts. Furthermore, I do not support indictments before investigations. But I'm not even terribly sanguine about that happening.

[Sinistrous]

46. As I added to my post above:

Conrad Black, Leona Helmsley, Martha Stewart, ...

Not to mention Jack Abramoff and Duke Cunningham.

Sometimes the big guys get nailed.

[Greyhound]

8. Voted yes, but the President officially has nothing to do with the process.

The most he could really do is make it known he will support investigation and prosecution.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. He should acknowledge the war crimes and urge indictment.

However, that idea can be safely placed on the "fat chance" shelf.

[gravity]

10. No

Lets move the country forward instead of dividing us over past battles.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

12. There has to be a rule of law. We might as well let other murderers and con artists get away

with their crimes too. After all, why clog up law enforcement and the legal system?

[gravity]

15. In an ideal world, I would agree

but if that was case, Bush wouldn't have been in office in the first place.

In reality, I see this being a huge mess and will divide up the nation. This will be a greater injustice because it will prevent the Democrats from enacting changes that will improve the lives of those in this country who need the help.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. It will divide up about 30% which is the base. Do you think the majority

of our country is so stupid. They were uninformed about reasons for war, etc, but they woke up. What is Shrub's positive rating now? I believe we are strong enough to handle anything that comes our way.

Nixon never should have gone free, and Iran Contra was covered up and buried once Clinton took office.

Enough is Enough! There are over a million dead bodies in Shrub's wake and it has to be dealt with.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. I honestly believe that it's a moral & spiritual imperative for our country that we do so.

[cali]

14. I respect your opinion, and I certainly would like to see it

but I don't want Obama pursuing it. Anyway, it's not gonna happen- at least not in the next few years.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

32. Let Justice handle it or one of the Congressional Committees that were handcuffed.

[dysfunctional press]

13. that would depend on the totality of the evidence and the case that could be made with it...

i'm willing to let the incoming AG make that determination.

[Occam Bandage]

17. I strongly approve of incoming leaders throwing the opposition party into jail.

Fuck the Constitution. Obama should use his executive powers or something and have 'em all imprisoned. That always sets a great precedent.

[cali]

20. no shit. fuck investigations. fuck the constitution. just toss his ass in jail.

what I'd really like to know is what the charges would be. What's the evidence. Are members of the Congress who voted for the IWR, guilty too? Or do they get off because bush allegedly lied to them? How do you prove that?

[Sinistrous]

22. You do realize that you are the only one here talking about summary

prosecution, don't you? You are making yourself look retchingly silly by repeating that baseless canard.

[cali]

38. how does the indictment read?

what are the charges? What is the evidence? The OP asks if we want Obama to indict bushco. it says nothing about investigations and evidence. I'm surprised with your oh so vaunted dedication to the constitution, that you don't want to know those things to.

The OP didn't call for investigations. It called for indictments.

And sorry, pumpkin, I don't back down to bullying. Ever.
You're little attacks are hardly going to make me crumble.

Carry on.

:hi:

[Sinistrous]

43. Indictments follow investigations. Remember grand juries, and all that?

And as for charges and evidence, etc, see post #34.

[cali]

45. then why not call for investigations. that is NOT what the OP did

and there is no guarantee that the investigations end in an indictment.

[Sinistrous]

47. Flailing a bit, eh? Reduced to semantic quibbles over a legal phrase

used by a layman?

[cali]

48. lol. you really are ridiculous.

and your grasp of logic is plain old lame, sweetie.

[Sinistrous]

49. Care to be specific regarding my failures in logic?

[cali]

50. sure.. it's a failure in logic to

not acknowledge what the OP actually asked. It's a failure in logic to assume that there's a possibility that President Obama will indict george bush. It's a failure in logic to assume that bush will be indicted period. It's wishful thinking that demonstrates a lack of any knowledge of history.

wishful thinking is not logic.

[Sinistrous]

23. Brilliant example of the strawman fallacy.

[Occam Bandage]

24. That is not a strawman fallacy. I have seen that sentiment expressed precisely here.

The mere fact that you do not believe that Obama should personally order the imprisonment of Bush does not mean that others do not. Hell, I've seen at least a dozen posts saying that Bush should be thrown in Gitmo, and that would be more flagrantly unconstitutional than anything Bush did.

[Sinistrous]

26. That option is so unrealistic that your stating it as a possibility

is a strawman.

If you are on the side of decency, why do you not advocate proper prosecution under the law, instead of making yourself appear to be advocating a free pass for the bush cabal?

[gravity]

29. What are the specific charges against Bush?

What evidence do you have to back them up? How do you plan on countering Bush's defense for the charges beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law?

[Sinistrous]

34. The charges have not yet been brought. I will leave that to the lawyers and

trust that the ensuing investigations will develop the necessary proofs.

[Occam Bandage]

31. Yes, that option is indeed unrealistic. Repeating the bad opinions that others hold

is not a "strawman," when I am referring to those same opinions. It seems that you assumed, for whatever reason, that I was suggesting you, personally, held those opinions. That's hardly my fault, and I do not particularly care if you think I "make myself appear" to be anything.

[Sinistrous]

37. No. Your phrasing lumped all the people advocating prosecution

in the "ship 'em to gitmo" group when most are advocating formal, legal prosecution.

Classic strawman:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

Person A: Those advocating formal prosecution.
Position X: That the bush cabal should be formally prosecuted.
Person B: Occam Bandage, et al.
Position Y: Prosecution equals "ship 'm to gitmo".
Strawman conclusion: The ideal of prosecution is false/incorrect/flawed.

By the way, If you do think that formal proscecution is OK, why don't you just say so?

[zorahopkins]

35. If Bush Is Charged, Tried, and Convicted....

If Bush is charged with war crimes, tried, and then convicted, I say throw his sorry butt in Guantanamo.

And let his guards be those recently released after seven years of UNJUST imprisonment!

[RC]

44. If Obama tried that, he would not last the week.

Biden would know better than pursue it. A better course would to be let the World Court handle this.

[Joe Fields]

19. On my wish list, but not holding my breath.

[Blue_In_AK]

28. It would make me really happy,

but I don't see it happening unfortunately.

[zorahopkins]

33. YES YES YES

Can I say it any stronger?

YES -- Obama should indict Bush/Cheney for war crimes.

And not just Bush and Cheney, but all the other thugs and cronies that committed war crimes -- people like Rumsfeld, Rice, Gates -- every single one of them!

It would be just wonderful if we could arrange to have their trials at Nuremburg, Germany!

[TripleKatPad]

36. He, or Congress, should

but I can't see it happening.

[NoGOPZone]

42. No. He should remain President, and leave the indicting to the Department of Justice. nt