When did this place become Xenophobic Underground?

[Sub Atomic]

My Lord. I have never in my life seen so many people screeching about how if the Chinese buy any of the auto companies that the next thing we know we're going to be evicted by the Chinese when they run out of room.

For crying out loud people, if the Chinese buy GM the plants aren't going to go away and millions of Chinese aren't going to sweep in and take all of the jobs and we're not going to be forced to speak Chinese.

Get a freaking grip.

</rant>

[Juneboarder]

1. Get a Chinese Grip!!

:)

[Sub Atomic]

5. I prefer a G.I. Joe Kung Fu grip!

[Juneboarder]

15. LOL! You're too quick...

and funny! :rofl:

[Stinky The Clown]

2. You're right ......

..... they'll just take the jobs there ...... where they can make shit way cheaper for all the reasons we already know.

We'll get Chinese made cars and rusty factories and lots of people in bread lines.

[LostinVA]

3. That's not the least bit xenophobic

The Chinese government sucks for many reasons -- I want them far away from our businesses.

[KitchenWitch]

34. Yes, like melamine in the food, lead paint in the toys.

They seem to have fewer regulations in the areas that really count than we do.

[LostinVA]

50. Yup -- they have zero hesitation about poisoning their own people (even babies)

As well as us and our pets.

[Mike 03]

4. Yeah, it's getting a bit strange here. I'm learning a lot about some folks at DU that I didn't

know before.

[blueclown]

6. Where have you been?

Democrats have been protectionists for decades.

What you are describing is not xenophobia, it's protectionism.

[Idealism]

12. I fail to see a problem with protectionism

It sure as hell will get people working again if we start producing goods in this country again. It will strengthen national security and increase tax revenue if we can become more self-sufficient. China seems to have been doing just fine the past decade and they are still heavily protectionists.

[blueclown]

25. There is no problem with protectionism.

However, there is a problem with equating protectionism with xenophobia. They are not the same.

[Kitty Herder]

45. Thank you for pointing that out. nt

[Idealism]

7. So you think outsourcing is a good thing then?

I guess you are just all-for "globalization." I call it unemployment. You have bought into the meme of the GOP: pay the workers as little as possible to increase company profit margins. Why do you want to sell out American workers to competition that have a helping hand already?

[Sub Atomic]

18. Where did I say anything about outsourcing?

Have the Belgians shut down every Anheiser Busch factory just because they now own them?

Christ on a cracker some people here are freaking loons.

[Idealism]

28. You speak too soon

That will be happen in the next 6 months, most likely.

[Mike 03]

Also, China operates differently. They form partnerships. If we want to do business in

China, we have to submit to some of their rules, just as they submit to some of ours.

So this frenzied phobia some people here have about our automotive industry doing business in and with China is largely just ignorance.

ON EDIT:

I believe it's approximately the same situation with Russia and portions of Eastern Europe.

[amandabeech]

69. I would not want Chinese business practices to take hold here.

I'm a proud xenophobe and protectionist!!!!

[pampango]

24. I hope DU doesn't have to choose sides between "globalization" and 'xenophobia".

I don't know that we gain a lot by using our favorite epithets on each other. (Besides isn't Obama preaching the wisdom of "reaching across the aisle" - even the aisle between "globalization" and "xenophobia"?)

I had the good fortune to live in the Third World for a few years (Peace Corps). The people there are not that different from us in terms of what they want out of life. We should be trying to make the economy work for us and for them. We are all in this together; not just in terms of climate change but the world economy, also.

[Blaze Diem]

8. OK, but I do recall the statment made once, that the Chinese would not

attack America at its borders but would destroy it from within.

Recall this vaguely so maybe someone can clarify this statement for me, as to who and when it was made.
THanks
-----
just adding a thought to all this.

[Sub Atomic]

13. Ah, James Traficant

"Mr. Speaker, in 1992 a Russian spy who defected to
America said China is determined to destroy America
from within. He further said, and I quote, China would
buy or steal our industrial and military secrets. He said
China would buy American politicians. And the Russian
spy further said, and I quote, China will stop at nothing.
In spite of all this, China got for free our missile technology,
China got naval bases, and China gets and continues to get
a sweetheart trade deal financing the next major threat to our
sovereignty…Someone in high places in America is in bed
with the Chinese Red Army and the Chinese Communists."

Congressman Traficant, March 16, 1999


He was quite the sane one, wasn't he?

[NoPasaran]

61. Of all James Traficant's crimes

I think the hair was the most unforgivable.

[Richardo]

9. It's my one xenophobia - I don't trust China and I think they've earned that mistrust

If I were king we wouldn't have anything to do with them.

[EFerrari]

11. Come and spend some time in San Francisco.

We're fine!

:hi:

[Richardo]

16. I did live in SF for a number of years - I separate Chinese people from 'China'

"I don't trust China", I should have said.

[AlCzervik]

17. exactly and for good reason. It's the government, not the people.

[Richardo]

22. Well, I DID admit to teh xenophobia ;-)

But: point well-taken.

[EFerrari]

23. I do get it but, we need a reality check.

Our government censors us and spies on us.

Our government arrests people without charging them and holds them for years.

Our government tortures people and blames it on the lowest level of our service people.

Our government invades innocent nations, imposes embargos on them and engages in covert wars against democratic governments.

Our goverment funnels our money to their elite cronies and tells us to suck it up.

AND WE DON'T TRUST THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT?!

[Richardo]

26. Right! What's so hard to understand about that?

I can not trust more than one government at a time.

[AlCzervik]

27. i don't trust our government either.

[EFerrari]

35. :-)

[EFerrari]

20. Well, do you trust any government?

lol

Our advantage is that we're smaller and lighter than they are. :)

[wtmusic]

10. After Obama won we had about 3 days of peace

before everyone needed to get their panties re-twisted.

[Mike 03]

14. Anyway, it's unlikely they'd "buy" GM, etc... They would take an interest in the company, like

other foreign nations have done with dozens of our largest business. They at least have some reason to take a stake or percentage interest in an American car maker. They could get benefit from this arrangement, as could GM, who would be able to get financial assistance.

No one in the private sector domestically will lend money to these failed corporations. That is why they have come hat in hand to the U.S. Government, the new lendor of last resort.

[PVnRT]

19. Chinese Democracy by GNR is coming out this weekend. Coincidence?

[AlCzervik]

21. the whole album is on myspace already, i just listened to some of it.

there is a link in the lounge.

[Kalyke]

32. Is this the one with or without Axl?

He was one tough MFer.

[AlCzervik]

33. with and i'll let you listen decide.

[Odin2005]

29. China is a Fascist state, THAT'S why. Xenophobia has nothing to do with it.

The Chinese state is not the Chinese people.

[sarcasmo]

44. Bingo.

[OhioChick]

78. You're absolutely correct. n/t

[Phred42]

30. The COmmunists will do what they have done with the other US manufacturing plants thaey have bought

They disassemble the plants and take them home and do th4e manufacturing there

IF you are an American start acting like one.

[Sub Atomic]

31. If I'm an American I should start acting like one?

If you're an adult, perhaps you should consider acting like one yourself.

[Phred42]

38. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4502492

It's time to wake up

[pampango]

36. "The Communists will destroy us." Where have I heard that before?

No I'm not going to start banging my shoe on a podium.

The Japanese and the Germans did not disassemble auto manufacturing plants and take them home. Quite the opposite. They, particularly the Japanese, have built many factories in the US, probably more than our domestic auto companies have done in the past 2 decades. Your point, I suppose, is that the Chinese are more deceitful than the Germans and Japanese.

[Phred42]

37. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4502492

[Greyhound]

42. Oh no, they are our friend's, always have been, we just didn't understand

the cultural differences. After all, look at how well the average Chinese person has it, don't you want that kind of affluence and order for yourself?

Or are you just a racist xenophobe?

[KG]

48. the chinese are commies? bwahahaha! that's a good one!

:rofl:

[Deja Q]

39. I must agree.

The situation is too complex to even attempt to connect dots. The chances of being correct HAVE proven to be small. Time and time again...

I recall, in 2002, 2004, 2006, and 2008 how elections would be canceled for some reason - chiefly a terror attack. Guess how many elections were canceled? ZERO.

There are numerous other examples, but the biannual posts about "OH NOEZ! FASCISM IS COMING!" just didn't happen.

[Waiting For Everyman]

40. Maybe when the shit visibly hit the fan.

In epic quantities. It's um... OBVIOUS now to all why this happened.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. EEK!! It's the Yellow Peril!! They're storming the beaches of Detroit!!

Soon we'll all have to wear Mao buttons and eat Mandarin Oranges!!

[AzDar]

43. Not wanting anymore of our already-dwindling manufacturing base to be sold off to a foreign

power is xenophobic, huh?

Utterly fucking fascinating analysis.

[OhioChick]

71. In complete agreement. n/t

[Azlady]

77. Very well put AzDar

Thank you.

[Mike 03]

46. China makes horrible cars, but their exploding population demands them.

What is so wrong about offering them a piece of the pie in exchange for them financing the production of the cars they need?

And same goes for India!

These are the two exploding markets for American products, if we get can our heads out of our pompous asses and figure out how to play this hand correctly.

They are still our cars, designed by American ingenuity. So what if they are produced by Americans living in China or India???

[Mike 03]

47. Otherwise, we can stick to our arrogant principles and allow

Toyota and Honda to overtake the Chinese and Indian markets.

[Edweird]

49. The Chinese make garbage. Worthless garbage tainted with lead and melamine.

The LAST thing we need is for them to own GM, both for our own safety as citizens AND for the good of GM. We need to *eliminate* Chinese junk from our society, not legitimize it.

[pampango]

51. Wow. "The Chinese make garbage." Yeah and "African Americans are lazy and

shiftless." "Jews control the world."

Are there any other groups of people that we are forgetting? ALL Chinese don't act alike. Just because they may all look alike to you, doesn't mean that theirs is not a nation of individuals who have the same dreams that you do.

Does their country and economy have problems? You betcha (to quote a famous Alaskan). Israel has problems. The US has problems. Africa (the continent, not the country) has problems. That doesn't give anyone the right to lump all Jews, all Chinese, all Africans, etc together and start spouting stereotypes about how they all do this and make that.

[last_texas_dem]

53. I dont believe it's fair to lump criticism of products from a certain country

with the two racist statements you included. I disagree with the idea that *everything* made by the Chinese is garbage, but I don't see how criticism of their products is the same as attacking the Chinese as a race. When Japanese products had a reputation for being crappy, would it have been an attack on all Japanese people as a race to say, "The Japanese make garbage?"

[Edweird]

54. I actually *DO* stuff. I built houses and commercial buildings professionally. I weld.

I work on my own vehicles. I have purchased quite a bit stuff from Harbor Freight and Northern Tool. Expensive Chinese made garbage. Lots of it. I even owned a motorcycle made by Zongshen. They build more motorcycles every year that Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki combined. I suppose they have to, since they are apparently disposable. Mine died from a seized engine at 7500 miles. Every tool I have that is Chinese made is junk. Worthless. The saws don't cut straight, the tools break, the drill press wobbles, the tap and dies are out of spec, on and on.
Everything Chinese that I have bought has been replaced by higher quality, properly functioning tools.
I have learned my lesson the hard, expensive way.

Who knows, maybe you think Chinese crap is the best thing since sliced bread. If you do, you're welcome to come pick up some of my wasted money. But, as a man that uses and NEEDS tools that perform as expected, the Chinese garbage FAILS MISERABLY. EVERY TIME.
So, if you have something Chinese made that ISN'T a worthless piece of junk, consider yourself lucky.

This doesn't even take into account the lead and melamine poisoned Chinese made crap.

[anigbrowl]

52. Throw your computer in the bin then.

[Edweird]

55. You first.

[anigbrowl]

88. I'm not bitching about stuff made in China, am I?

[burythehatchet]

57. "The Chines make garbage" is a very misguided notion. They make shit for WalMart

because that's what WalMart wants to pay for.

How do you suppose the Chinese are sending satellites into space? Building a world class military?

They just make the shit that America wants to consume.

[Edweird]

59. You're kinda making my point for me, there aren't ya?

[LeftyMom]

80. Seriously. I've looked at the crash tests on Chinese-manufactured cars*

and I wouldn't take one for free, because they're fucking deathtraps.

*And these were for the European market, which I would assume are probably their better models.

Video of crash tests of Chinese cars for the European market:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/crash-test-video/chinese-sedan-earning-its-1+star-crash-rating-272111.php
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/unsafe-at-any-speed/another-chinese-car-absolutely-failing-its-crash-test-288294.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5JpY9DM_k

[burythehatchet]

56. I presume you've read the India bashing threads whenever outsourcing comes up

Indian people apparently suck because they aren't stand-up enough to refuse the jobs that American companies are offering.

[KamaAina]

58. And the Lou Dobbs-style Mexican-bashing threads whenever immigration comes up

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[Edweird]

60. As a person that was *DIRECTLY* affected by that, yes.

Much like people in the tech sector that might not feel so warmly towards outsourcing and H1B's.
I watched $30/hr living wage skilled labor jobs turn into $10-$15/hr subsistence jobs. Safety became non-existent. Quality plummeted. The ONLY people profiting from this were the developers, NOT the contractors or carpenters. They all made LESS.
But, we Americans don't NEED those jobs, anyway, right?
We should all be thankful for the opportunity to have 500 people line up for 50 MINIMUM WAGE FAST FOOD JOBS, right? 'Cause that's apparently what some people think is 'progressive'; destroying decent paying blue collar jobs.

[KamaAina]

63. It should be possible to discuss these issues rationally without playing the race card

for instance, by focusing on the employers, Repuke contributors all, who profit from these practices.

[Edweird]

65. I'm not playing the 'race card'. The facts are what they are.

If the facts don't fit your idealistic view of the world, well, that's just too godamned bad.

For the record; my wife (we are in the middle of divorce, but until it is completed we are still married) is Guatemalan. She is the daughter of LEGAL immigrants that came here during their country's 'troubles'.

[KamaAina]

72. I do not doubt that you aren't playing the race card. Many others, however, have been.

Earlier this year, any post with "immigration" in the subject line was a guaranteed flamefest. And no, I don't recall you being involved in any, offhand.

[Edweird]

91. Having supposed "Democrats" advocating AGAINST American labor (ME!)

makes me so angry I am unable to think straight. So I avoid those posts.

I have the unusual advantage of actually knowing the reality of the situation. Before the wife and I went into business for ourselves we worked for her dad. He is a contractor and employs(ed) almost exclusively illegal immigrants. I worked as a Project Manager for him and oversaw multiple development all over South Florida (and a few in Central Florida and the Naples area, too)- each having HUNDREDS of houses being built at once. I also built shopping centers and commercial buildings. I knew hundreds of these illegals. I was their boss. I have nothing against them personally as individuals. It's not about race. It's about jobs. My job. Middle class living wage blue collar jobs that so many smug assholes here think we Americans are undeserving of. All the while crying alligator tears about how their tech was outsourced. It makes me sick. I am also aware of the criminal element that comes with this. I'm not saying it's rampant, so don't get your panties in a wad, but it DOES exist. Some of it like this

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/crime/sfl-flbtrafficking1122sbnov22,0,3411650.story

is flat out horrific. Some of the guys I knew tried to get me to go to one of those 'houses'. I was happily married and declined, but I had no idea at the time that it was THIS.
You've heard of people committing crimes and running 'south of the border', right? Well, it happens in reverse, too. The anonymity they enjoy allows them to come here and hang out while things 'cool down' back home. One of the guys that worked for me killed somebody back home and was doing just that.
But, it's not like we don't already have rape, forced prostitution and murder here. It's nothing new, just a new way of doing it. It's not my argument, just pointing out that the whole "they aren't hurting anybody" line of thinking is complete bullshit from every angle. For me it's about jobs and income, nothing more. We need our living wage blue collar jobs back. Our kids need to be able to mow lawns in the summer for extra cash. Working minimum wage at wallyworld or burger world with no benefits isn't cutting it.

[City of Mills]

62. You're not fooling anyone. You're clearly Chinese.

You're trying to lull us into complacency while you pick out the choicest homes in America. You're not fooling us, we're onto you!!!

[RB TexLa]

64. That and the threads saying "Don't ever buy anything not made by Americans!"

You get the idea from many threads that non-Americans are not worthy of either having a job or selling anything to Americans.

And the China thing sure sounds like a lot of people here think there would be something wrong with someone from China being boss over Americans.

I do think there are many here who put people into classes by their nationality, which is very sick.

[David Zephyr]

66. Exactly. When Mercedez bought Chrylser, there were not slurs against Germans.

Sadly, Asians and GLBT are still marginalized at the DU.

I hope that the Chinese will buy GM and Ford. It's a hell of a lot better than letting them go into Chapter 11 and screw their vendors and collapse only to get more taxmoney and to collapse again.

I drive Toyota because they make the best vehicles in the world.

[Chovexani]

68. Amen

And it's always the same people on those threads, oddly enough. The ones who can hardly wait for an excuse or opportunity to let fly how they really feel about "those people".

[Chovexani]

67. Somewhere around the time a lot of "recovering" Republicans showed up

Some have more recovering to do than others, it seems.

[TheKentuckian]

70. Xenophobia? That's way off base and demonstrates a poor understanding of the word.

I have no fear of outsiders or their cultures, in fact I feel it adds to our diversity as a nation.
I feel that diversity, for more than a few different reasons, gives us a special strength that creates new possibilities.
You'll find me to be as liberal on immigration as can be but selling our country out to any one is questionable as can be to my mind but to a Corporate Fascist economic nuclear power with a Communist social structure is unacceptably insane to me.
You're talking about selling out America to the last tack. We'll own nothing but the shirts on our backs. What makes people think its a good thing to cash out to other countries? The land, the mineral rights, the buildings, the utilities, everything. You think its xenophobic to believe that is a bad idea? If so, sure as shooting. Call me Captain Xenophobe. I want to keep our country.

We have our hands full with the local chapter of the World Order, I see no reasons to invite the whole gang.

[ihavenobias]

73. So you think that being concerned and upset about outsourcing and insourcing automatically means

that someone is xenophobic?

That argument would hold a LOT more water if this was Free Republic (but it's not).

PS---Thom Hartmann (revered and respected talk show host and author) is quite possibly the most progressive man alive, yet he's very much opposed to insourcing and outsourcing, and it has NOTHING to do with racism or xenophobia.

[pampango]

74. Concern about outsourcing is not xenophobic, but saying that "Chinese make Junk" and

"we need to eliminate Chinese junk from our society" is a little different than discussing the costs and benefits of insourcing from and outsourcing to other countries in general. That sounds more like a slur directed at a group of people.

[ihavenobias]

75. I see how you could think that but I disagree.

At least when I think of "junk from China", it has NOTHING to do with the people and everything to do with the lax standards for labor and materials!

If the goal is to make the cheapest possible products with little to no regard to quality and safety (and fair wages, benefits and safe working conditions for the employees), you often end up with "junk".

It just so happens that a lot of our "junk" comes from China.

Again, if you want to argue that a lot of the anger from *the right* comes from racism and xenophobia, I agree. But there are plenty of people on the left, myself included, who are also angry at the exploitation of labor and the environment. And the end result is often tainted pet food and other sometimes dangerous "junk".

[pampango]

76. There is a distinction between citing lax standards and claiming that "Chinese make junk".

It's like citing socio-economic conditions in the inner city as a cause of crime as opposed to saying that "Black (or Hispanics or whatever group you want to pick on) commit too many crimes.

Chinese not only make junk, they make a lot of quality stuff as well as evidenced by their aerospace industry. The fact that we buy a lot of Chinese "junk" may be more of a reflection on us than it is on them.

[ihavenobias]

84. Not really. One leads the other, it's pretty simple.

Lax standards and low quality materials=junk (in each and every country). The End.

Who thinks the stuff is junk because of the race of the people making it or the country of origin? Certainly not many people at DU, that's for sure.

After all, Japanese cars are awesome. Why? Because the standards and materials are higher quality.

At any rate, that about wraps it up. Have a good night, and enjoy these links:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/16/china.tainted.formula/index.html

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/160700.html

[LeftyMom]

81. Go look at post 80. Chinese manufacturers haven't figured out even elementary safety precautions.

Their cars are junk. Really, really dangerous junk.

[OhioChick]

83. I saw that.....

Scary, to say the least. :scared:

[mdmc]

79. sell!

im down!

[JVS]

82. The prospective Chinese management care just as much about US employees as the US-born management

Which is to say, not at all. So I really don't care if they buy the auto makers.

OTOH, I wouldn't want to have people think warm and fuzzy thoughts about the management at any time, so if in the public starts aligning itself with the workers instead of the "evil furriners" (i.e. management), I'm fine with that.

[Occam Bandage]

85. Sinophobia is well accepted in the American left. nt

[Occam Bandage]

86. Doubleposting is well accepted in the American left. nt

[TexasObserver]

87. Everybody was Kung Fu fighting ....

[ColbertWatcher]

89. The Chinese never pass an open door ...

[pampango]

90. Depends on the issue. If it's global warming, then "We are all in this together and

have to work for a global solution to the problem. It's not a country-by-country thing."

If it is the global economy, then it's "Watch out for the people in that other country. They are out to get us." If we governed our own country well, including its corporations, (and I believe we will starting January 20) we could promote prosperity around the world without endangering our own right here.