GM workers make $73 an hour? Here's the rebuttal to that one.

[sinkingfeeling]

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2008/11/18/the-return-of-the-70-per-hour-meme?tid=true

The Return of the $70 Per Hour Meme
You might expect it from right-leaning commentators like Will Wilkinson. You wouldn't expect it from someone like Mark Perry, who lives in Flint, Michigan. And you certainly wouldn't expect to see it in the New York Times, from the likes of Andrew Ross Sorkin. But all of them are perpetuating the meme that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs.

It's not true.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply. But anybody who uses it as a rhetorical device suggesting that US car companies are run inefficiently is being disingenuous. As of 2007, the UAW represented 180,681 members at Chrysler, Ford and General Motors; it also represented 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses. If you take the costs associated with 721,025 individuals and then divide those costs by the hours worked by 180,681 individuals, you're going to end up with a very large hourly rate. But it won't mean anything, unless you're trying to be deceptive.

[Idealism]

1. People need to be more objective and find out facts

rather than spouting off BS. And it isn't just the GOP party.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. So the media and the repuke shills are trying to make union busting more palatable by

implying that union workers are overpaid...

There needs to be some really aggressive education about what the unions have done for this country and its workers...and exactly what the unions have won for American workers..that they all take for granted these days...
Health care
paid sick days
paid vacations
paid holidays
safe working conditions
pensions
no child labor
minimum wage
etc ...

[yodoobo]

3. Whats to rebut? What is the problem?

Yes they make $73 a hour in wages, AND BENEFITS.

Because they work damn hard.

Read my posts. I bitch about GM and its products all the time, but I would never say the employees don't earn their due.

When I was much younger man, I worked a GM assembly line for 2 months. That was some of the hardest work I ever did in my life.

Since then, I've gone to school and I now work a white collar job, but I'll NEVER forget my experience working in an auto plant.

[bertman]

23. Self-delete

[bean fidhleir]

59. That number is probably the fully-burdened BUDGET NUMBER

The burdened number accounts for salaries, bennies, a share of plant maintenance, and a share of everything else that goes into having N people employed.

When I was a boss, 25 years ago, I budgeted my engineering group based on a burdened number that hovered around $150K per year per person, and I guarantee you there wasn't a single soul including the highest-paid engineer in the group (he made a good bit more than I did) grossing that in salary and bennies.

[Hangingon]

69. I missed the theard yesterday.

I think you must be correct. Are we talking about the labor cost element in the cost of a vehicle produced? If you deduct non-productive hours - coffee breaks, training, sick days, holidays and vacation days and then prorate the costs for retirees, I can see where the cost would be huge. But that is not the salary of a line worker.

[yodoobo]

70. But thats how you compare apples to apples

The fully-burdened number is damn good way to know how things stand.

I fully aware of what you are describing. Generally the fully burdened number is about twice of what the individual actually earns.

In any event, the fully burdened number is *NEVER* the same as what someone earns. If it is, someone didn't understand what full burdened means when they calculated it.

[Democrats_win]

4. Thank you DU for the info. A Dem gave me that $70 figure yesterday.

I didn't even think to ask DU about this. I just took it as fact. This shows the power of the right wing media to lie. What a timely post. Well done DU!

[soothsayer]

5. I'm sure there's overtime, too. They're allowed to make decent money. It's not a crime.

[Muttocracy]

6. so basically the really high exec salaries are skewing the mean? anyone know the median wage? nt

[bertman]

24. Generally speaking, salaried employee pay is not used when averaging hourly workers' pay.

[napi21]

7. I believe the biggest problem is senior mgmt. They demand

insanely high wages & bonuses AND cutsie little goodies like membership in the Country Clubs, & luxurious golfing vacations with a few meetings thrown in to make them a legit business expense.

I have no proof, but I'd be willing to bet that their foreign competition execs don't make anywhere near the compensation of the Big 3.

I have no problem with paying a bonus for performance above & beyond, but when the Co. you are running is LOSING MONEY, you don't DESERVE a damn bonus! Making the right decisions and running a successful Co. is very difficult, and those execs deserve a nice salary, but MILLIONS A YEAR????? NO!!!

[On the Road]

74. A Lot of Chinese Executives Have Gotten Extremely Rich

but I do not know how their pay packages are usually structured. There's a lot of self-enrichment and "entrepreneurship" within large state-run companies.

I agree about a lot of the perks, especially the bonuses.

[sinkingfeeling]

8. Here's a couple other items for clarification.

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN043212...

The average UAW-represented GM assembly line worker makes just under $28 per hour now before health-care and other benefits that take total hourly labor costs to $73, the automaker has said.



http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20...

According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff

[ContinentalOp]

9. That figure has been pretty eye opening for me personally.

I make way more than $28/hr but under $70. And yet I pay for my own health insurance, have no retirement, etc. I need to make more money :(

[TahitiNut]

10. That number also undoubtedly includes the bloated compensation of the executives.

:shrug:

[Peacetrain]

11. New hires are hiring in between 13 - 15 dollars an hour

GM is expected to replace most of the workers who leave its parts warehouses. Its labor agreement with the UAW, which was ratified in October after a two-day nationwide strike, creates a second-tier wage rate of as little as $14 an hour for new workers in jobs classified as noncore. Current workers are paid twice that amount, which, including benefits,


Edit to add information

[Jack Bone]

12. what new hires?

We've still got UAW brothers & sisters on layoff.

There won't be any new hires for a few years.

But when they do, they'll make $14/hr in certain job descriptions; material handling, janitorial, inspection..basically jobs that don't physically touch final product.

[Peacetrain]

13. we must have posted simultaneously..

:) see my above post.. I was just reading the contact details in some Detroit papers on line..
I edited to add the paragraph I was reading

[Hannah Bell]

27. they hired 1000 at $14/hr. then laid most of them off.

[hfojvt]

14. it means something though

that's a lot of retired people to support - 540,344. Almost 3 times the number of workers! How much do those people make and how long do they make it? It's not the same as current expenses, but it would seem that a) they did not properly fund their pension obligations over the last few decades and b) it is a bigger pinch now because of a declining work force and declining market share. Defined benefit plans are nice for workers, but prove to be somewhat unsustainable.

[Peacetrain]

15. New workers do not get defined pension plans.. it is 401-ks

And the defined pension plans are overfunded.. but I think that is the whole point.. to pull the rug out from under the retirees, and get their hands on those designated funds

[Peacetrain]

16. some additional infor on that pension funding for the auto workers

ASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- General Motors Corp. (GM) on Wednesday said regardless of what happens to it financially in coming months, the auto maker doesn't expect its pension programs to become government liabilities in the short term.
"On a combined basis we remain overfunded," GM spokeswoman Renee Rashid-Merem said. The plan for hourly workers is underfunded by $500 million, while the company's plan for salary workers is overfunded.

[JohnWxy]

17. He's using a figure that is suppossed to be a direct cost but includes an indirect cost

this figure then gets compared to a direct labor cost figure inappropriately.

good post. thanks for the info. Unfortunately, the erroneous figure will probably be repeated by M$M.

[bertman]

25. Yes, a more accurate description would be "total compensation, including benefits" is $73/hour.

[w4rma]

18. I want to know what the median wage is, not the mean age. (nt)

[Festivito]

86. It's not a wage. It's a cost to employ. MUCH DIFFERENT.

The wage does not include FICA, health care, insurance, retirement, training, safety, vacation, holidays, ...

It may not include accounting/reporting, supervision, office space/equipment/upkeep, ...

The politicians/judges/prosecutors/police get a wage. They also get FICA, health care, insurances, retirement ... that are not counted as a wage.

Some union workers get a wage and then have several dollars per hour taken out to pay their own retirement, health care, ...

Comparing these wages is like that old comparing apples to oranges.

Let the Republicans lie like rugs. Trouble is you have to beat the dirt out of them.

[1776Forever]

19. The Unions in the Country gave birth to the Middle Class - without them it is class warfare!

That is my belief! 20 years ago I had an Accounting Teacher in Ohio tell me that he believed at some point in the future there would be class warfare between the haves and have-nots. Now it has come to the presipus and we are going to choose to keep our Middle Class alive or let the "war" begin. If we don't work with the auto industry who is going to pay for all those medical bills? Who is going to pay for the unemployment? Why do most of the nay sayer's say "retrain" them! Retrain them for what? The Indian's all ready have most of our help desk industry accounts! I am really scared at what is going to happen if we cannot work this out!

[bertman]

26. A more accurate statment might be "The Unions in the Country EXPANDED the Middle Class".

The middle class is also made up of small business owners as well as skilled, non-union workers and professionals.

The unions deserve credit for a lot of things but there was a middle class before unions.

[whathehell]

83. It was mighty small. n/t

[gravity]

20. They are paying that much in benefits

When you get a pension and health care after retirement, you are giving up your current wage to pay for it. The money for those benefits have to come from somewhere.

[struggle4progress]

21. Y'know the GM CEO's got about 15.7 million in 07, about $1800/hr ...

24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year ... whether he's building cars or planning an attack on worker's pensions or sitting on the crapper or snoozing in front of the tube

GM's CEO also earned more than a hundred times as much as one of those non-existent $70/hr GM workers would earn

If a minimum wage earner was paid 24/7 52 weeks a year, s/he'd haul in over $57K/year; but of course in reality the minimum wage earner is capped around 2000 hours a year, GM's CEO earned about as much as 1200 folk on minimum wage.

Apr 25, 2008
GM Ceo's 2007 compensation worth $15.7M
General Motors Corp. Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner's compensation package for last year is valued at $15.7 million ... http://www.topix.com/forum/source/wood/T77G1VLOOIOTSD9GA

[OHDEM]

22. You beat me to it!

That's what I was going to say. LOL Great minds...

That was my response to right-wingers on aol. Not only that they make THOUSANDS per hour, but that you know darn well that they are taking long lunches...flying private jets to numerous vacations....and playing LOTS of golf! This war on the middle class is making me sick! These auto jobs may truly be the last good, union, middle class jobs and I can't believe how ignorant people are blaming them for the problems. Uh...excuse me, but who is making the decisions about the type of cars to make - the union line worker or the multi-millionaire CEO? ARGH!!

[Waiting For Everyman]

28. And that's nothing to the legions of $500/hour attorneys.

Talk about over-priced.

[Evoman]

29. My rebuttal: SHUT YOUR FILTHY WHORE MOUTH, FREEPER, BEFORE I MAKE YOU BURP YOUR OWN TEETH!

Usually works.

[B Calm]

30. I'll bet you they included salary wages to come up with that number!

[Bentcorner]

31. So they "only" make $28 an hour? That stills seems awfully high for assembly work

And I also read that they get 100% medical insurance. No deductibles, no co-pays. Is that not true? Don't they also get a pension on top of that $28 an hour? That means they don't have to use any of their own money to pay into a 401K like most working people, right?

[bluecollarcharlie]

34. Ah, see there is more NONSENSE

There are deductibles, there are co-pays. These things are in the contract and have been in every contract for the last 13 years. And we do pay into a NON-MATCHING 401k. As for the $28 an hour as being "too high", let me put this to you: You move constantly 8 hours a day. You have to constrain your body going into or coming out of a vehicle 500 times a night. Sometimes you have to stand in a pit fastening suspension parts while the car moves above you. Or maybe you have to drop frames using a hoist that sometimes brings these things over your head to put onto a moving carrier that feeds them to the assembly line. Each frame weighs approximately 1000 lbs. Or you may have fasten these tiny screws into a piece of trim and i'll tell you right now it WILL be more than one screw . All of these jobs require you to do them within 12 SECONDS, in-station, or a buzzer goes off which shut the line down. That brings a supervisor who will write you up if you shut the line off too many times. It is not the easy gold-brick job that the union busters and their easily gullible sheep would have you believe. Are there jobs that are easy? Sure. But they comprise less than 5% of the total jobs in an assembly plant.

[Bentcorner]

36. Workers doing the same type of production work make only a fraction of what UAW members makes

If the American auto industry gets the federal bailout, it will come from the taxes of people that do similar work, but are lucky to get paid half as much. People that don't get 100% funded health insurance or a pension. I realize you say that UAW workers today don't get all of these things, but that's not what I have read elsewhere. Even if it's only for workers who were hired over 13-years ago, the same principle applies.

[sinkingfeeling]

47. Well, why don't those other workers doing the same type of work form a union?

[Bentcorner]

50. Most Americans aren't in unions and don't want to be in a union.

[Marrah_G]

54. ..........

[sinkingfeeling]

61. Then stop being jealous about union wages and benefits. Unions built this country. And since the

'free market' gurus said they were evil and working people should be content with whatever crumbs fall their way from above, people like you don't want to be in a union. I think it's too bad that there aren't unions in every profession. Maybe if the employees of my former company had unionized we wouldn't have been betrayed. While we took cuts in our pension 'formulas' and the elimination of our retirement health care, for which I have a lifetime promise in writing dated 1973, the 'outside' CEO genius raised the CEO salary from $250,000 a year to more than $13 million.

[Bentcorner]

62. If being in a union meant that my employer had to ask for a $25 billion handout

I'm glad I'm not in a union.

[sinkingfeeling]

63. And if you worked for a bank or financial institution would you be as ashamed that your employer

had a couple of $trillion handed over to them? By the way, the Big 3 aren't asking for a 'handout', as Wall Street did, but a bridge loan.

[Bentcorner]

67. Yes I would. I hate the fact that the banks were bailed out.

[whathehell]

84. Yes, but a different and unfair standard is being applied to the Auto Industry

Is congress insisting that AIG and the Banks to "show a new plan" before they give them their obscene bailout money?...The "bailout' money originally requested by the Auto Industry was a paltry four and a half PERCENT of what the other industries asked.

[NoGOPZone]

75. And if it was the unions fault domestic car companies can't make money, maybe you'd have a point

Also, you might want to learn the difference between a handout and a loan

[Bentcorner]

76. Toyota and Honda seem to be doing well enough. At least they haven't asked for a bailout.

If and when the "loan" was not paid back, it would indeed be a handout.

[NoGOPZone]

77. Toyota and Honda are domestic companies?

And 'if and when' the loan doesn't get paid back, you can call it what you will. Until then, you're being disingenous at best, and I'm still waiting for the point I referenced before.

[Bentcorner]

78. Yes. Thy both build vehicles in the United States for American customers

They are asking for a bailout in interest free "loans" that no other entity is willing to give. Why do you think that is? Because common sense tells you not to loan money to anyone or anything that doesn't have the ability to pay it back.

[NoGOPZone]

79. More Disingenuousness. OK, let's go by your standards. How

does BMW make money? European unions have more influence than American unions How about Mitsubishi? Both make cars in America for American people, so they must be domestic companies.

Also, if you would use some of that common sense you reference, you'd realize it's hard for many organizations to get loans right now.

[Bentcorner]

80. Because other auto companies make vehicles that people want

The American auto industry for too long now has relied on making expensive trucks and SUV's and getting people to believe that they are "cars".

You know who really can't get loans? Companies that can't show how they will ever pay the loan back.

[NoGOPZone]

81. On that we can concur, because it speaks to the REAL problem with the industry

Detroit can't convince people to buy their cars. People can argue all day about the relative value of American cars, but in the end the US manufacturers have a major marketing problem, and that's a management issue, not a labor one.

[Bentcorner]

82. If Detroit was making "cars" and not trucks and/or SUV's, they wouldn't be in trouble right now.

[EstimatedProphet]

65. Prove it. Because I think you made that up.

Don't even begin to tell us here that most workers are against their job protections, or against their making a living wage, or against having a pension. Unions did that. The free fucking market you think is so wonderful didn't reward workers with those things.

[Bentcorner]

68. When did I say I thought the free market was wonderful?

And what job protections do the UAW people really have when it will take a government bailout just to keep them employed? I'm not against anyone having a pension. I just don't think I should have to pay for it.

[EstimatedProphet]

71. You shouldn't have to pay for it

Had we had decent government oversight in this country on industry, we wouldn't have to pay for it.

[MindPilot]

56. Yep and then the tech at the dealership gets paid half that

to find and fix their mistakes.

[Obamanaut]

85. And a neurosurgeon must poke inside people's brains, and air-

line pilots land multi ton aircraft at more than 120 mph, and prison guards are surrounded by convicted felons, and firemen enter burning buildings, etc. And you asked for the job of putting in the little screws, or constraining your body 500 times a night. What is your point? It the job is that odious, get a new one.

[Marrah_G]

35. 28.00 an hour is not "awfully high"

It's a wage someone might be able to raise a family on with a decent quality of life and maybe even buy a house.

This is the problem folks: Over the last few decades they have turned workers against each other- telling one group the other is making too much- not that the lower group is making to little.

This is a direct result of the loss of unions in this country.

[Bentcorner]

37. Relatively speaking it's high in that nobody else in this country doing similar work

makes $28 an hour. That's not even close to what assembly line production workers get paid elsewhere.

[Marrah_G]

38. So shouldn't we be pushing to raise the wages and benefits of those workers,

rather then trying to bring the other laborers wages down.?

This is what has gone so wrong in this country.

Once upon a time a blue collar worker could earn enough money to raise a family and live a decent life. Now- they are undercut at every turn and people are fooled into thinking they are worth minimum wages.

28.00 is less then 60 grand gross. That's not exactly a fortune. Taxes and other costs come out of that.

[Bentcorner]

40. I'm not faulting anyone for getting $28 an hour for working an assembly line, but

when people who do similar work for far less are asked to pay for a bailout, I think that's wrong.

[Marrah_G]

45. lack of help will end up with a busted union and those wages dropping to a barely living wage.

We have to stop saying "those damn workers get paid to much" and start saying " we need to get organized so these low wage workers can get paid a living wage"

They want to break the last of the unions. The unions are what got us decent wages, hours, benefits and safety standards.

With the unions gone you will see the middle class dissolve completely as people accept lower and lower wages just to compete.

We need to raise UP our people, not bring them down.

[Bentcorner]

49. $28 an hour is a lot more than a living wage, especially in Michigan

[Marrah_G]

52. No- it really isn't

It is less then 60 grand before taxes, dues and benefits are taken out.

That is just enough for a family to live a decent, comfortable standard of living.

The fact that you think that is way too much to live on just goes to show how well the anti-worker corporations propaganda has worked.

[Bentcorner]

57. Or, it means I just have a different point of view than you.

It's not that I think it's "too much", I just know that other people in this country doing similar work under similar conditions make far less than UAW members. If they can get it, good for them. The problem I have is that for them to continue getting their current level of pay and benefits, $25 billion of our taxes will need to go to them to keep them going.

[EstimatedProphet]

64. Oh bullshit!

This is what these people do for a living! Are you actually going to come here and try to argue that it is unfair that people make enough money to live their lives? $28 an hour isn't enough to live a life of extravagance ANYWHERE IN THE US! IF the rest of the country doesn't make trhat kind of money, then they should make more, not have people make less! How dare you try to say that people don't deserve to have quality of life!

[Bentcorner]

66. No, what I believe to be "unfair" is requiring people who make far less

doing the same exact job to pay for their $25 billion bailout.

[EstimatedProphet]

72. Workers didn't cause this bailout!

If the fault rests on anyone, it rests on management! If you want to be irate about having to pay for the bailout, then why aren't you upset about CEOs that make 500 fucking times what labor makes? THAT is the real reason industry has lost its competitive edge! Instead you complain about workers making a living wage! And if you're really concerned about having to pay for these kinds of things, the automotive bailout is nothing in comparison to the Wall Street bailout, which they are right now using your money to give themselves raises and bonuses and luxury vacations!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. You nailed it. With extreme prejudice.

:thumbsup:

And I might add: rightos like to throw this divisive shit everywhere, not just in the US. I speak from personal experience.

[Enthusiast]

60. You said it, Marrah!

This is what has been done to mischaracterize the union worker. "They're lazy, they make too much money and they do shoddy work." We have been bombarded with anti-labor propaganda for 100 years or more.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. I have great difficulty believing US$ 53,000 a year for ANY full time job

should EVER be considered "awfully high."

Maybe if you live in India. Maybe.

[Bentcorner]

41. Show me one other assembly line job that pays even half of that

and maybe I'd understand this better.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. You ARE aware you're just confirming Marrah_G's point over and over, aren't you? -nt

[Bentcorner]

44. I'm not asking for anyone's wages to go down. I just don't think the federal government

should give them a bailout.

[Marrah_G]

46. But by saying that you are asking for people wages to go down.

You are saying " damn them for earning a living wage, I know people that would do it for half that so I don't think we should save them"

This is what the corporations LOVE to hear. They want people to think like that. They want people to accept less and less so they may receive more and more.

[Bentcorner]

48. No I'm not. I'm not the one asking for anything.

The American auto industry is the one asking for stuff.

[Marrah_G]

51. sigh

[Bentcorner]

55. Sorry that I don't agree with your point of view. I've never been in a union

and compared to the people I know that are in unions, I have it much better. I make more money than they do. I don't have to work holidays or weekends. I don't work rotating shifts. I have also never been laid off.

[Marrah_G]

58. See- you have a great job- Everyone should have such a good job!

[cabbage08]

32. K&R n/t

[rucky]

33. Plus, they're double-counting what they should already have paid into in the pension fund.

Why do you suppose they'd do that?

[20score]

53. K&R. Dig into a talking point, and more times than not - you find a lie.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. What part of that figure makes it to the bottom line on the sticker?

And the figure I keep seeing quoted is $78.21