Please read Michael Moore's opinion about the bailout. Remember, GM was the subject of his first mov

[Mira]

I know this is long, it is not edited because I don't want it to be lost in the night.
I wrote it because Michael Moore's fervor inspired me, and he gave me what I think is a realistic way of looking at the crisis they are grappling with in Washington today.
I was in Europe this fall and was struck massively by how they move people compared to our one and only way:
Cars.

I saw that basic cities have about 30 percent bicycle traffic.

I saw streetcars throughout, and in some areas they turn into trains by using the rails for train at the edge of the city. They speed up, and connect towns. So commuters get onto the "train" to the next city, and once arrived, they slowly get to their place of work in the same thing, now a streetcar.

I saw towns tunneled under, and through traffic flowing under them not even bothering the city itself.

Much more, but please, if you don't want to read all this, keep it kicked. There are some who want to read my labor of
Exasperation:

=============================

MM made a movie, "Roger and me" in 1989. It was about GM letting thousands go, he himself had worked there, so did his father, and at the time he made the movie where he said he was looking for the GM executive Roger Smith to "talk to him about it" there were still about 50 000 employed then. Evictions were rampant and the city of Flint Michigan was dying.
Now, he says to Larry King tonight, there are less than 12 000 employed in Flint (or is it Flynt?)

A side note: He sold his house and filmed the movie himself with a hand held camera. It un expectantly became a great hit, and ended up in the theaters where he always requested a seat to be reserved for Roger Smith to see the movie for free.
RSmith never showed.
This movie is phenomenal and I recommend it highly to those who have not seen it. I made a great impression on me when it came out and I have followed MMoore's work ever since.

He said tonight, agitatedly and with much emotion, that GM's problem is that they have crammed down the people's throat that "what's good for GM is good for the country". We'll build it, and you buy it.
BUT, people went out and bought other cars and learned better, and though each of the CEO's should have bought a car they were competing against and driven it around the block in order to learn what made the people happier, they just kept building the wrong cars and lost market share to the point of no return.

The collapses and reasons are the same for Chrysler and Ford, the CEO's kept insisting that the consumer's opinion was wrong, and they kept building cars that no longer sold.

He feels that the people who run those companies should not get a dime (but wait - and read on) because they are still spending the money in the wrong way, for instance at this point they are building a 300 Million $ factory outside of St. Petersburg in Russia, to continue doing the wrong thing, while it takes jobs from our people here.

He pauses, Michael does, and says: "The people should not lose their jobs, it's not their fault."
President elect Obama needs to go back to what Roosevelt did in the war, he took charge and told them what to build and it was not cars but kept the people working, because the country was in a national crisis.

He says it is imperative that the money be used to re-structure the industry from the bottom up. They need to be put into receivership with new management and they need to build what is needed:
Light Rail
More Subways
More Buses
Mass Transit
Railroads
That a whole new management team is needed, just like Roosevelt brought in to build ships etc.
That the conditions need to be stringent, and oversight very close.

He says that if GM collapses there are hundreds of thousands of jobs lost to nothing, and the ripple effect will be millions. That bankruptcy is not the answer for them.
That the government needs to step in and hold a reign on these companies, whose infrastructure is badly needed in order to implement the changes needed to find alternative and immediate other ways to transport ourselves.

He thinks if we do the bailout the big three may not be around even in 6 months. We are in crisis not only with the transportation issue, but with global warming, the oil running out, and the need of alternatives now.

He says Congress is being hypocritical by not coming to a vote now. They can't make up their minds about the bailout, which will help in a temporary way to preserve the jobs of the blue collar people.
But if it were big banks, and corporate people in suits and ties, the bags of money would open right away.

He says what this country does not need is more crap built by Detroit.
It needs the structure of those companies, and the people who need to keep their jobs, to completely rebuild a new system of transport.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Michael Moore is right.

[Hobarticus]

2. Sad to say, he's right...

But that bailout better come with a long laundry list of conditions.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. Will there be the political view to do it? nt

[greyl]

4. "they need to build what is needed" - Yep. nt

[JVS]

5. Exactly

[dysfunctional press]

6. he's wrong about what's needed.

our society and infrastructure is built around personal transportation. what's needed and WANTED BY CONSUMERS are affordable electric cars, plug-in hybrids(bio-diesel hybrids would be nice), and other viable alternative power technologies.

[Mira]

7. Maybe - but when you experience being in a train where the next one would leave shortly

and the conductor comes on while you read a magazine and are ever so comfortable and he says:
"I am so sorry we are running a minute and a half behind schedule. Please consult the screen in front of you about our location. We fully plan to make up this discrepancy so you will not miss your potential connection"
then you might start thinking about that there are other ways.

When I experience that sort of thing, and then come home, I can't fathom how we allowed ourselves to fall so far behind.

[Gullvann]

9. Where was this? (eop)

[Mira]

12. Mostly Germany

[Gullvann]

21. Thanks.

I am in Norway and rely 100 percent on collective transportation. Oh, and my legs :-)

However, I think it requires a large cultural change in America to make it viable.

Then, you have the great distances to contend with, particularly outside of the urban centers.

Heavy gasoline taxation could help, but I guess such a move would be political suicide, as well as unfair on those who have no choice, but to use private cars for their transportation.

[amandabeech]

34. Yes, we would need to totally relocate housing and jobs to do what Europe does.

We are incredibly spread out in many parts of the country. It will take quite a bit of time to turn the U.S. into Europe. I'm sorry that I haven't been to Norway, but it is on my list. I have been to France, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Portugal, Lithuania, a little Denmark and Sweden, so I think that I have some grasp of the differences there.

Our bigger cities do have at least some mass transit. New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia and DC are the best. However, light rail is available in Cleveland, St. Louis, Atlanta, Dallas, LA for starters. However, it is not used as frequently in those cities, except maybe LA. We really could do a lot more with our large and medium-sized cities.

Amtrak, our national passenger railway needs help with new tracks and equipment. Right now, it shares tracks with freight rail in many places, and that causes delays like you wouldn't believe.

Since our country is really spread out and separated into three parts by two mountain ranges, long distance trains between the east and the middle and the middle and the west aren't all that popular. Airplanes really do the job better. However, shorter distance trains running on relatively flat terrain within the three areas are relatively popular. The east coast run from Washington to Boston is quite popular. It's 3-4 hours from Washington to New York, and maybe the same to Boston. The trains are often full.

Out in the middle, the train between Chicago and Detroit is busy, and until the economic meltdown, the midwestern states were working on plans for a regional passenger rail network centered on Chicago with service to Detroit, and the mid-size cities of Cleveland, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis and St. Louis, which spread out like spokes on a wheel from Chicago. That's out now, but it's a good idea. The drives between these places are fairly long and the traffic is heavy. Traveling by air is a real hassle--you have to show up early and go through security,etc., so rail competes well with shorter flights of up to 1.5 hours.

Similar progress has been made on the west coast corridor from San Diego to Seattle.

But what is needed elsewhere, are fuel efficient vehicles like you have in Europe. Of course, our rural areas and spread out small towns will be very isolated if we can't have some personal transportation. Life on the farm was often very lonely before the auto, and I think that folks will drive Lupos and SmartCars before they heat their houses!

Well, thanks for your comments. I look forward to visiting Norway some day!

[dysfunctional press]

18. if people in the u.s. wanted to travel by train, amtrak would be doing gangbusters.

people like their cars, people want their cars.

there are places where trains make sense- and those places by and far are already served by rail lines.

there are also plenty of people who say they would love to ride the train, if one was available- but there aren't nearly enough of those people living in enough numbers in under-served areas to make train service viable- otherwise it would already be there.

[Mira]

22. I dont' want to desparage your opinion (casting asparagus) , yet

you speak as if you have only experienced Amtrak. As a European by birth, and lived there til age 20, I know about train travel possibilities. When, after immigrating to the US I used Amtrak a few times, and found it quaint and like going back to the times of the Hole in the Wall Gang in Cat Ballou. Which was fun, and an experience, but not what is needed to move people inexpensively, reliably, and safely.

[dysfunctional press]

23. there just isn't enough interest in it in this country to support it- people WANT their cars.

the massive amount of money that would be needed to convert our entire infrastructure would be more than enough to develop electric/plug-in hybrid vehicles that would move people inexpensively, reliably, safely, and happily.

[MattSh]

28. If you call yourself QuestionAll...

maybe the first thing you should question is the status quo?

Just a thought....

[dysfunctional press]

29. i have, many times...but facts are facts- people prefer cars.

nt

[NickB79]

30. Amtrak IS doing gangbusters

http://www.google.com/search?q=amtrak+ridership&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Many news stories in the past year about jumps in ridership due to high fuel prices.

[dysfunctional press]

33. they've also slashed their routes in the past few years- so they serve less people.

and what the article says overall is that if people were given a choice between trains and affordable/sustainable-energy cars- they'd choose the cars.

[rucognizant]

52. I drive for 2 reasons.......

I CAN SMOKE IN MY OWN PERSONAL CAR! As an artist, aging, I can't possibly carry an easel, paint box, large canvasses...........etc. If I go anywhere, I go 500 miles or 1,500 miles,and take a bunch of stuff!
If there were local bus service in Downeast Maine I would happily take it.( Well there is but there is only 1 bus a day. AN hour trip to Bangor or Ellsworth isn't so long that I need a smoke, and My SS income is so small I can't afford to buy so much that I couldn't carry it home; ( with the exception of a trip to Home Depot!) Actually it might be good for business in Bangor because as it is now, I almost never go there. It would make cultural events more accessable to me. I won't go to the UM Orono cultural center because of the 70 mile trip home in the dark with the possibility of hitting a moose or a deer.
In my Dads youth, our 24,000 population NJ town had a trolly line running out to the lake where there was a beach, carousel, picnic tables, canoe rental......................... By my youth in the 50's the carousel was gone, as was the trolly, and we each individually, drove our parent's pink, or baby blue finned convertables out to the beach.

[Jim Sagle]

10. He's right, you're wrong, and that's the end of it.

[dysfunctional press]

16. well there's some great logic...you were in the debate club, weren't you?

:eyes:

[Kalyke]

42. Disagree.

Cars give Americans the freedoms they love so much.

Heck, it was the backseat of cars that started the sexual revolution. Don't believe me? Look it up.

[CRF450]

19. Thats right.

Living out in the country, and with the type of job I have, I wont ever see myself using public transportation, even if its viable in my area.

[dysfunctional press]

20. we're in a semi-rural area, and there's no way that it would work for the majority of people...

in our subdivision. and that same scenario exists all across the fringes of sub-urbia, as well as rural areas and sub-urbia itself.

[CRF450]

24. People here forget that this is a big country, with a very widespread population.

This isn't friggin Germany, or Japan where millions and millions of people live packed together. They have lots of cars too, the difference is, they have viable public transportation that doesn't have to go very far within their country.

Public trans would work for big cities, but for those of us out in the sticks, it aint gonna work out.

[robertpaulsen]

35. Michael Moore understands Peak Oil. What consumers want & what they need are 2 different things.

I have no doubt American consumers would prefer to prolong the happy motoring society that is predicated on personal transportation. Peak Oil necessitates that this living arrangement has no future. It just isn't economically feasible.

[dysfunctional press]

36. apparently he doesn't. and apparently neither do you.

there are plenty of ways to propel cars that doesn't require petroleum.

[robertpaulsen]

37. Of course there are. That doesn't mean they're economically feasible.

Apparently you don't understand the full ramifications of Peak Oil, unless you know something about ERoEI that I don't.

[dysfunctional press]

38. eroei?

i do know that nobody alive today will see the oil run out.
i do know that anything that can be made from petroleum can be made from hemp oil.
i do know that only 2% of the electricity generated in the u.s. comes petroleum.
i do know that we sit on mountain and mountains of coal, as does china.
i do know that with volume of scale, the prices of alternate energy vehicles will fall as more and more are produced.
i do know that plankton, among other things, can be grown/harvested to produce bio-diesel fuels.
i do know that brazil's autos run on alcohol derived from sugar cane.
for starters.

[Chan790]

50. The problem isn't petroleum or propulsion...

it's a fomenting crisis easily measured in the number of cars in metropolitan areas and quickly drifting out into the inner-ring suburbs of our major cities. It's probably never going to be an issue in rural Kansas, I would concede that...but we're not in Kansas anymore.

Again...The problem is personal transportation itself as an increasingly-nonviable status-quo.

[dysfunctional press]

54. most of the cities where it's too congested already have viable mass transit.

ultimately tho, people prefer personal transportation- that's why it's here to stay.

[codjh9]

41. No, we need BOTH - hybrids, plug-ins, etc., but FAR BETTER MASS TRANSIT. Hell, even D/FW now has a

light rail and train system that has thousands and thousands of riders - and if they can do it THERE (I know, because I'm a TX native and have lived in that area in the recent past), they/we can do it ANYWHERE! Believe me. Texans are some of the last people to want to get out of their own big-ass vehicles. :^)

[Chan790]

49. And there is the crux...

at this point, those things may not be viable. Sad to say, by our own folly, the era of personal transport is likely nearing an end. It's not sustainable...even with zero-emission cars, hybrids or electric cars. We could have bought another 50 years if we'd started exploring and building those things 20 years ago in combination with a major push on public transit...now it's just too late.

The "Big 3" got to where they are by not listening to the people...and now that they see that they're where they are because they didn't listen to the people, it may be too late to listen to the people. Honestly, we're reaching a crisis of humanity where people better start changing what they want to meet a new reality where the status quo is not viable.

Ultimately, there are parts of this country where public mass transit may not be viable and it is at these periphery that personal transit will probably always exist in some form. But in the areas where most people live: the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic urban corridor, Pacific Coast, and the Great Lakes Region...something has got to change, the problems are legion: pollution, lack of transport options, and yes...over-reliance on personal transportation leading to near-perpetual gridlock.

Living in an East Coast mid-sized metro-region, I can tell you that there is only one solution to our regional transportation issue...we can't build more roads or expand what we've got...people have got to get out of their cars...the only solution locally is less personal transportation. And that's the future reality for every metro-region in America. It was true 50 years ago in Europe, 15 years ago in LA, DC and NYC; today in Hartford, New Haven and the Fairfield Corridor here in CT, No. VA, parts of south Florida and 100 other places; ten years from now it's going to be KC, Peoria, St. Louis, Des Moines, Seattle and I can list cities here until I'm blue in the face or pass out from exhaustion and not make a dent in this dystopian future reality.

Adapt or die (metaphorically as a society, not literally as an person).

[dysfunctional press]

59. near-perpetual gridlock?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

i get around the chicago metro area just fine- haven;t seen any signs of this near-perpetual gridlock of which you speak...

cars in one form or another are here to stay- get used to it.

[magellan]

8. I agree with MM's thinking

I believe most of them on the Hill are so far removed from the struggles the rest of us endure every day that they don't see things for what they are. Or maybe they just hear too many voices in their heads and see too many dollar signs flashing before their eyes.

The answer here really is simple, give the Big 3 the money but attach strict conditions to it to ensure it's used wisely to survive and make themselves healthy by being innovative, while keeping jobs in this country where they're needed. And of course, make it clear it's a loan that must be paid back. With interest would be nice.

I honestly despair of government doing the right thing anymore.

[Oregone]

11. How can the government "hold the reigns" on these companies....

If they don't control the board? How can they control the board if they don't own the company?

[Mira]

14. Well, hell, if they "buy" out the failing company, don't they own it? Or am I too tired to think?

[Oregone]

17. There is a difference between buy and bail out with conditions...

BTW, just heard MM say, well if you gave my 25 billion to make a movie, you should own it. So I think he is actually on the right track.

[Gregorian]

13. This is what I've been saying as well. And we can be up and running fast with good engineers.

Mainly what we need (instead of WAR) is battery research. We have sat on our asses far too long in this regard. The electric car has been around for decades. But not the batteries to run them. Nor the means to charge them. Well that's not wholly true.

We cannot wait. Period. We're up against mother nature. Sadly, we just waited until we had to. I guess it's human nature for most people.

Automated welding robots, assembly lines, transportation, design facilities. These all exist. There's no need to do more than upgrade them. But the lead anchor that has held us back is not only management, but government idiots like Bush and Cheney.

So let's go. That Wall Street bailout alone would have given us far more in the way of an economic boost had we thrown it at battery research. Let's blast this one out.

How about a battery bailout.

Then a massive electric trolley system in every major city across the nation. No more hoards of metal boxes on rubber wheels.

It's time to change.

[Fumesucker]

25. The batteries are coming. .. Silicon nanowire lithium batteries to be exact..

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908.html

Nanowire battery can hold 10 times the charge of existing lithium-ion battery

BY DAN STOBER
Courtesy Nature Nanotechnology silicon nanowires

Stanford researchers have found a way to use silicon nanowires to reinvent the rechargeable lithium-ion batteries that power laptops, iPods, video cameras, cell phones, and countless other devices.

The new technology, developed through research led by Yi Cui, assistant professor of materials science and engineering, produces 10 times the amount of electricity of existing lithium-ion, known as Li-ion, batteries. A laptop that now runs on battery for two hours could operate for 20 hours, a boon to ocean-hopping business travelers.

"It's not a small improvement," Cui said. "It's a revolutionary development."

[This One]

15. If they can hang on until January, Obama can use part of the 700B to bail them out

[silverojo]

26. Europe has a long history of not being kind to the handicapped

Their public transportation is Exhibit A.

Not every unhealthy/disabled person can ride a bike, or stand around waiting for a bus, or (in the case of people with back problems, like my mother) even tolerate being able to sit in an uncomfortable seat.

We had to shop carefully for a car, because so many of the newer models have seats that are even agonizing to me, and all I have is fibromyalgia.

All that aside, how are small-town people going to get to the city without a CAR??

Here's the deal: This is America. European solutions won't work here, because it's geographically very different.

America is the land of innovation. We CAN make cars that run on alternative or hybrid fuels, so that people can maintain their lifestyle without harming the environment.

This is what we need to do in the future...not wasting money in mass transit that only takes a fraction of our population where it needs to go.

[Doctor Cynic]

27. Ahh yes, the "Technology will solve everything"

If we're wasting money, it's because we're wasting it on something that depends on an exponentially growing supply of resources.

We're running out of financial resources, but that's okay because money is fictional.

Once we run out of natural resources we're fucked unless we CHANGE our lifestyle.

[Project Grudge]

31. Pets or Meat? n/t

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

46. If you're hungry enough

Pets are meat.

[hfojvt]

32. one thing I discovered by accident in Deutschland

the train I took in the morning to Siegen filled up with schoolchildren. In America we spend tons of money on mass transit, but it is only used to get kids to school. If we could combine that effort and use the same equipment and drivers for workers and shoppers, then it would not cost that much more to have more bus service.

But mass transit works in Europe because their entire continent is about as densely populated as a metro area. Outside of San-San and Bos-Wash, ours is not.

[arcane1]

39. Sadly, Madison Ave has equated cars with self-esteem

for at least as long as I've been alive. To many people, the car is an ego boost, a feeling of masculinity, while travelling by train is effeminite. That attitude won't change overnight :(

[happydreams]

40. .......

It is sheer presumption to attempt to remodel existing institutions without the least knowledge how they were formed, or whence they grew; to deal with social questions without a thought how society arouse; to construct a social creed without an idea of fifty creeds that have risen and vanished before. Few men would, intentionally, attempt so much; but many do it unconciously.

Frederic Harrison
The Meaning of History
(New York, 1894)

Nobody knows what they are talking about here. You simply will not take the time and effort to learn--YOU MUST ALL GO READ!!!!
All of these fucking ball-capped wizards and charlatans, blasting out decrees without the slightest idea of what the fuck is going on. :puke:

[Sentath]

44. So, wtf _is_ going on?

Other than 'you're all wrong', do you have an opinion or suggestion?

[JNelson6563]

43. I partly agree

The Big 3 need to retool but so does the whole country. If we are to phase out cars we need to build a suitable infrastructure that will support light rail etc. In order to get people to transition from cars to the various public transits you list it would have to be convenient, clean, safe and reliable. Availability outside of the largest metropolitan areas would be necessary.

There will always be a need for individual or small scale transport but I believe it is achievable to have public transport play a much larger role.

Julie

[Pooka Fey]

45. Awesome post. K&R

[Vinnie From Indy]

47. While there is much right about Moore's opinion, there is also some crap

Firstly, the Big Three have built products people wanted. SUVs and trucks were bought by the millions in the last few decades. While it is true that those products are not selling well today and probably will never be sold in the numbers of the past. To offer that these companies have always built shitty products that nobody wanted is FALSE!!! UAW workers have proven that they can build quality products and the constant bashing of product quality, especially when discussing light trucks and heavy trucks, is not fair and it is untrue.

Most of the rest of Moore's ideas I agree with. Mass transit and the rest are the future and I believe that American auto workers can share that future.

[bongbong]

48. Interurbans

We used to have the same system in the USA before it was dismantled by car/road/oil interests.

Just research the Interurban system. Your eyes will pop out of your head when you see what Corporate Interests threw away right here in America.

[GrannyK]

57. Exactly!

The oil companies were the leaders in this scheme, assisted by tire, asphalt, etc. Another poster remarked about hemp. In fact those same corporations were behind criminalizing hemp because it could be used in so many of the same applications as petroleum, and other resources, and is a hell of a lot more environmentally sustainable.

Several years ago companies were receiving hugh write-offs for buying gas guzzling suv's and trucks. Is it jumping to conclusions to suspect that oil and auto companies were behind this tax loophole.

Americans, for the most part, want what the media marketing companies convince them they want. If Madison Avenue decided it wanted to push smart cars, people would be standing in line.

Perhaps the auto companies will ask their buddies in the oil industry to bail them out. They seem to be the only industry that is still in the black.

[tomreedtoon]

51. Waiting for the UAW guys to bash this post.

I've said similar things, and gotten shot down for it here on DU. "American cars are great! They are fantastic! You should go out and buy one right now! No need to change anything! You hate unions!" Translation: "I'm scared that if you don't bail out GM, and let the current crop of crooks keep running the company, I'll lose my job."

It HAS been a long time since River Rouge, isn't it?

[JohnDoe_America]

53. Maybe we should sell part of GM to Tesla?

Maybe we should give more money to the electric car company Tesla so they could expand operations in MI since it already has a workforce knowledgeable of building cars. Forget GM and move to the knew companies of the future.

[Quantess]

55. Too late to recommend this thread.

This is what I call progressive.

[Politicalboi]

56. We need alternative fuels

Maybe someday the train system will work. But in the next 20 years we need something while the system is being built. I know that was probably the excuse 50 years ago and here we are. We need clean fuel. I think the clean fuel would be easier to transfer to. Fuck the oil companies let them drink it.

[Beartracks]

58. Kick n/t

[wake.up.america]

60. We avoid using the car as much as possible.

Two kids ride their bikes to the train station. which is on a line that stops every 3 - 6 kilometers.

My youngest rides his bike

A grocery store is about 10 minutes away by foot.

Mass transit is BIG where I live.