There is no such thing as "religious" opposition to gay people or same sex marriage

[ruggerson]

Let's stop using politically correct rightwing terms here.

The reality is that what people, of all races, are being taught (indoctrinated) in churches is good old fashioned bigotry.

For some here to defend this group or that group by saying "well, they're socially conservative" or "they're religious" is bizarre to see on a putatively progressive board, because the people using that reasoning have already accepted the underlying rightwing premise that religious belief systems are somehow, at their core, legitimate in the context of a civil rights discussion, even when they propogate hate.

It is bigotry that caused Prop 8 to pass. What people are being taught in church is bigotry. Understanding and accepting that is step one in the process.

[Tikki]

1. Here in my part of SoCal...there were many, many children standing...

along side the streets and roads holding Yes on 8 signs...and
I thought that some of those young ones are homosexual and how
sad it will be when they realize that they were participating in
their own self-hate orgy and it was their own parents
who feed that hate.

Tikki

[shireen]

2. but not always a malicious bigotry

Many of these people have been taught by their religion that homosexuality is a sin. They have never questioned it or challenged it because it could potentially crumble the foundations of their faith. Some people need their faith to survive.

If we're going to set about changing their views, we need to do it gently. We need to show them the science that's proven its biological origin. Help them understand that Bible quotations suggesting condemnation of homosexuality are being misinterpreted by their religious leaders. Help them find a way to maintain their religious faith while accepting homosexuality and the full rights that gays are entitled to in this country. It may take a while to sink in, so be a bit patient with them

If they fail to accept homosexuality, after all the evidence you've presented, then, yes, I'd call them hateful bigots.

[NoQuarter]

6. Willful ignorance.

What we need to show them all the shit in the bible they conveniently choose to ignore. Either it all applies as the '"inerrant word of god", or none of it does.

You don't get to pick and choose.

[MindPilot]

8. Yeah that science thing has been so effective

with issues like stem cell research, evolution and reproductive rights.

You can't change them; the best you can hope for is that they STFU and fade into the background as the modern world passes them by.

[amdezurik]

3. seriously, who has said that stuff?

if they have they probably should look for another venue for that kind of crap. That is just dumb. If we found out a "religious" group was practicing genital mutilation on young girls that would be no excuse would it?

[ismnotwasm]

4. I agree to a point

(As far as I believe in these things)One of the more interesting love stories in the bible is the one between David and Johnathan. Even the Council of Nicaea couldn't make it sound less than what it is, a profound love story between two men. It's not presented that way of course. I'm not religious, but I find religion interesting, so I read the bible and other texts with a fairly open mind . And I read what I read. It says what it says. When you go to the different takes of original translations, that's when it's even more interesting.

Without the bigotry, which to me is a terrible, terrible sickness, I've often wondered how religion would have developed.

True love and compassion and a soul level sense of justice and human rights is what we need, not dogma that was a lie to begin with, and then repeated so often it became truth to some.

[BlueJazz]

5. The Religous People scare me. I can quote Sinclair Lewis about my Feelings.

“When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”
Sinclair Lewis quotes (American Writer, 1885-1951)

[Unvanguard]

7. Who is to say that opposition cannot be simultaneously religious and bigoted?

Indeed, it seems to me that, generally speaking, that is exactly what it is.

[Two Americas]

16. some of each

I think more people on the churches could be brought to a position of opposing persecution and abuse and denial of human rights - and that is what the anti-gay movement is really about, not religion - then there are people who would support bigotry. In fact, I am certain of that.

Asking people to approve or endorse, or promote or embrace something is a weak approach. We need to force the bigots out into the open and we need to not buy into their religious justifications. That is all a smoke screen to distract and confuse people.

[Kazak]

17. Religiously masked bigotry.

One better.

[PurityOfEssence]

23. There's a bizarre, commonly-held view that religion is inherently "good"

As a result, its inherent beauty outweighs the occasional ugliness done in its name. Not only do I not subscribe to this selfish aristocratic claim, I view religion as more bad than good: it glorifies rigid certainty without proof, and it demands unquestioned sway over the views of others.

Not only is it "possible" that religion can be bigoted, it IS BY DEFINITION. The definition of prejudice is pre-judging: the already held belief that something is so. That's religion; to many, "faith" is an unquestionably good thing, and its superior mindset trumps any questioning of the actions it sanctions.

The extreme encroachment of religion that has been a major element of this campaign is NOT a good thing.

[stray cat]

9. Is is possible that people are capable of forming independent bias and opinions

if not how are the rest of us indoctrinated in our opinions if not in a church. Most of us have beliefs somewhat similar to our peer group whatever group that happens to be.

[Two Americas]

10. yes

The Religious Right is an extreme right wing political movement masquerading as religion. Attacking religion misses the mark and strengthens them.

[LatteLibertine]

11. I'm all for religion

when it promotes empathy, tolerance and justice. I am not for it when it dehumanizes others so the "chosen" can sit around and feel good about themselves. Personally, I don't subscribe to any religious faith.

Religion can be a good societal glue and when it is filled with bigotry, I strongly oppose it.

You don't need to be religious to treat others as you wish to be treated and to practice empathy towards others to the best of your ability.

Prop 8 is indeed BS and I hope it falls.

[bluedawg12]

12. They're not "just words" they're dangerous.

I spent sometime the night before the Prop8 vote, talking on another forum with a member of the church that sent out of state funds and missionaries to work to defeat an established law providing rights to gays for marriage.

Good grief, what could be more normal, more approved of, than two adults wanting to commit their lives to each other, in sickness and in health, to enjoy rights and to assume responsibilities?

So, what did that discussion turn into with the Church member?

That she was voting for Prop* because, "She wanted to save America from destruction which would ensure following gay marriage. She was voting for Prop 8 to save America."

OMG. That type of dogma casts gays as the enemy of the State. That is about all some rwnut jobs need to commit more hate crimes. Bomb a few more gay places of business.

It was echoed at 9-11 when gays and others were blamed, it was echoed after Katrina when gays and others were blamed.

This rhetoric in America in 2008 is inconceivable if it were ever said about any other minority or protected group.

It is unacceptable.

[bowens43]

13. religion is by it's nature bigoted.

It's religious AND it's bigoted.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. Lots of bigoted people on DU.

Bigoted against religious people AND blacks (just look at all the rainbow-flag-sticker DUers who pooh-poohed the need for welfare and public housing and laughed off the notion that inner city black neighborhoods were anything other than socially pathological deadbeats.)

[plaintiff]

14. Well, yeah but doesn't the fact it is taught in churches...sorta make it 'religious'?

:shrug:

[plaintiff]

15. woops, delete dupe - something burped

;-)

[robinlynne]

18. excellent. But many religions have been intolerant throughout history.

When an entire group of people practices hate together, organized into a religion, be it mormons today, or the Spanish inquisition, it is hard to separate the religion itself from the hate, subtle, although you are right.

[Strathos]

19. A-Men

Bigotry plain and simple and they all know it but use code words to hide it.

It's time to dismantle the religious right.

[alarimer]

20. I agree.

Religious bigotry and nothing more. I am sorry, but I despise all organized religions, especially those which teach their followers to hate other people for any reason.

[frebrd]

21. As far as I'm concerned, if it's taught in churches it's religious....

and I don't know any atheist homophobes.

[Duppers]

38. amen! nt.

.

[electron_blue]

22. You might have more luck starting with the idea that legally, marriages are not religious.

Even atheists do it!!

Fight that battle first. People confuse this all the time. They think by legally allowing gay marriages, they will force churches to marry them.

When I got married over 10 yrs ago, no church or priest/pastor in town would marry me and my fiance because of various things "wrong" with us. I was episcopal, he was UU. He was married before, I hadn't lived in town long enough, we weren't going to take their 6 week training course, we wanted an outdoor wedding, not in a church, what have you. They made up all sorts of reasons why *not* to marry us - and we were a hetero couple.

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. Marriage is a religious ceremony. Common-law unions are secular.

You don't have to be married to be together in the eyes of the law.

[Unvanguard]

31. Civil marriage is a civil matter, not a religious one.

Religious marriage is separate. They often coincide, but they don't have to. Please don't spread the distortions of the Christian Right on this subject.

[electron_blue]

33. No - I know several people who were married who did not have a religious ceremony.

A few are atheists, some just got didnt' want the fuss and were married by a justice of the peace.

This is what I'm talking about. It's a common misconception that marriage ceremonies are always religious. This needs to be cleared up.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. And at the same time, let's not start assuming that religious =

bigoted.

Not all religious people are being taught or teaching this bigotry. Some have been pretty vocal in support of gay and lesbians and in support of civil rights for all our citizens. Lumping all religious people together is falling for the same sort of stereotyping that gets us in trouble to begin with.

Don't fall for it, please.

The LDS church did play a very, very large role in pushing Prop 8. The RCC played too, as well as some of the more outspoken conservative Protestant churches. But all religious people are not part of those efforts, and all religious people are not responsible for the results.

We're fighting the same bigotry.

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. So the objective on the No on 8 movement is to establish that religious beliefs are illegitimate?

Is that what that beating up on old ladies holding crosses stuff is about.

[ruggerson]

29. It's a free country, people are entitled to be bigots

I'm objecting to using positive-coded language to mask what's really going on here.

Time to call it what it really is.

[TWiley]

28. Tax the churches ... n/t

[LeftCoast]

30. The 'religious' opposition to same-sex marriage is the same as

the 'religious' opposition to interracial marriage.

[AntiFascist]

32. I have to agree....

religious programming is nothing short of cultish brainwashing. Anyone who has dealt with devout Mormons would know exactly what I'm talking about.

[LatteLibertine]

34. Some faiths and religious leaders

teach their followers that homosexuality is sinful. Or that is you're wicked for practicing it.

That sort of indoctrination has real consequences and the end result is bigotry.

People are indeed free to be bigots. I will respectfully challenge them and those ideas.

[AntiFascist]

36. Let me give an example that doesn't involve bigotry necessarilly....

while I was in High School I particpated in a summer program at Utah State where we stayed in dorms that were run by Mormon "dorm parents". We had to follow their rules, and one of the rules was that you couldn't play with face cards, but it was ok to play with the numbered cards from a card deck. This was because "the devil is watching you through the face cards". One night we got bored and decided to play poker, against the rules. One of the dorm parents caught us, took away the deck, then gave it back to us later with the face cards missing.

Suppose that this rule were made part of their state constitution? Would that be an example of religious freedom or religious oppression based on a cult-like belief?

[EFerrari]

35. I dunno. Spreading bs via church groups is a very efficient delivery system.

:shrug:

[Duppers]

37. NOT Religion? BULL !! >>>> Leviticus 18:22, 24

Sorry to shoot your argument down, but....

Leviticus 18:22, 24 -
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is abomination. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things

Leviticus 20:13 -
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Genesis 2:24-25 -
“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

Homosexual References in the New Testament

Romans 1:26 - (English Standard Version)
For this reason(A) God gave them up to(B) dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,(C) men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.



For this, and a 1,000 other reasons, I oppose all forms of organized religion.

[Mnemosyne]

39. My humble theory is that when the Council of Nicea deliberated,

they worried that there would be less people to support their lazy asses if "gays" were together and producing no future brain-washees for them to inflict continued suffering and guilt upon.

imho, those verses were placed in by men, not by any 'god'.

[Laelth]

40. If it's religious opposition, then fine.

Those religiously opposed (to anything) can choose to or choose not to live as they wish, in unions of their own choosing, based upon their religion. But forcing your opinions on others is called political opposition (and it may be bigotry too, in this case). I think the Church of Latter Days Saints needs its tax-exempt status stripped away immediately. Religious activity is fine, but they engaged in open political acts by pushing Prop. 8. That's political action, not religious action, and it ought to cost them.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Odin2005]

41. In this Atheist's opinion Religion and Bigotry are 2 sides of the same coin.

the coin being primitive, superstitious, tribalistic, "us-versus-them" thinking. the mindset of the average Westerner is only superficially different from the mindset of people in traditional tribal societies.