On taking Jesus back from the radical right wing

[torgos_pizza]

It may come as a shock to some on the left- but not all Christians are radical right wing bigots. Some of the greatest freedom fighters of our time- Like Dr martin Luther King, were driven by their faith- There was a time when Christians in this country stood up to war, and marched for civil rights....
Sadly in recent years many bigots on the right have claimed Jesus as their own- even though Jesus was a peacemaker who advocated things the right wingers opposed-

Many on the left renounced religions- at times ridiculing all people with faith, as worshiping the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'.
It's understandable, particularly when gays are often treated as subhuman by the more bigoted christian churches.
Who would want to belong to a church that preaches hate? The church may preach hate- But i don't believe Jesus preached hate.
There are bigots on both sides. There are right wingers that paint all muslims as being terrorists, just as there are liberals who paint all Christians as being gay bashing christian psychopaths.

I am a Christian- i'm also a liberal, and proud of it- i support gay rights, voted for Obama, am for a total separation of church and state, am pro choice, and support most progressive causes- As a Christian, I feel the best was to follow the example of jesus is to follow his example- to help others- to work for peace, to feed the hungry, to heal the sick. Nowhere in the Bible can I find Jesus threatening people with Hell if they don't worship him as god....
I know many on the left are atheists- i'm cool with that, but there are some who are religious- some Buddhists, Jews. Wiccans, Christians, etc...

But i am getting tired of fellow liberals who assert that to be a liberal, you *have to* be an atheist.

For any liberal Christians- What would you say are the best ways to take jesus back from the radical right?

I think a big problem is that some Christians buy into the idea that salvation comes ONLY through faith- and not through deeds- so using that logic, the serial rapist who worships Jesus goes to Heaven, and Gandhi goes to Hell.....
That is why so many radical right wing Christians have no interest in helping others.
Both Catholicism and Protestantism sometimes have the tendency to preach self hatred-the idea we are worthless in God's eyes- and if you are taught to hate yourself, all you can feel for others is hatred. Why else would so many right wing Christians spew nothing but venom? BUT I have met liberal catholics and Protestants who are very proactive in the community, helping the homeless, and supporting progressive social issues that help the needy.

But the right wingers who claim to love Jesus should be out in the community helping others, working at soup kitchens, and doing their best to do help others- to do what jesus would do- be a person of charity and peacer...
yet right wingers oppose any effort to help the weak an downtrodden- So WHY do they worship jesus?????
I don't' get it..
We have to reclaim Jesus from the radical right- but how????????

[maxsolomon]

1. perhaps we could give them the Buddha?

they need the dharma. desparately.

[NMDemDist2]

2. I have found quoting Matthew 5:44-47 and 6:1-8 to them handy

and I'm not even a Xtian :evilgrin:

[spoony]

8. Yep pretty much anything from that area is a fatal blow to RW

theology. Blessed are the peacemakers, judge not, great liberal stuff.

[kenichol]

70. Matthew 25 and

The Dalai Lama, Gandhi, and Carl Jung agreed on one point-After you've explored Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American spiritual traditions, etc., to really go deep in one's spiritual seeking, go even deeper in the spiritual tradition of your family of origin, of the family and culture that is yours.
So, I joined an African Methodist Episcopal church (long story, I worked at a Boys & Girls Club and a Board member was a pastor, invited me, the rest is history!

I have found two New Testament bits that I've used over and over.

Matthew 25 34-40: 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
and
1 John 4
7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

[Wiley50]

72. Acts 4 34-38 n/t

[Wiley50]

73. Many so called Christians are blind to the parts of the New Testament printed in Red Ink

They seem to prefer teaching the Old Testament esp. Leviticus and the like.

Isn't that the same judgmental laws that Jesus supposedly came to forgive them of?

Neo-Calvinism in the form of the Prosperity Gospel is the reason so many

are blind to the suffering of the poor and infirm.

I was raised a presbyterian but sought out other religions as a teen and in my 20's

Then I became an atheist, am now and will always be.

Religion has been a curse to humankind.

It causes wars and senseless killing.

[noel711]

3. You aren't alone... but Christian liberals tend to get bashed...

bashed by the right wing for being 'liberal,'
and bashed by many progressives for being 'religious.'

keep on keepin' on, as they say.

I learned a lot in seminary, and forgot a lot too,
but one thing sticks:

Whenever we draw a line in the sand, or build a wall,
in an effort to separate ourselves from those we think
are unworthy, Jesus stands on the other side with those
shut out. No lines, no walls... that's the inclusive, radical
message of the gospel.

Those who think they 'own' Jesus just don't get it.
Those who pick and choose scripture to build walls
shutting people out, don't really know the scripture.

We have to arm ourselves with scripture ourselves to
argue with those who simply don't know.

[verdalaven]

6. That is beautiful. Thanks :)

"Whenever we draw a line in the sand, or build a wall,
in an effort to separate ourselves from those we think
are unworthy, Jesus stands on the other side with those
shut out. No lines, no walls... that's the inclusive, radical
message of the gospel."

[RedLetterRev]

68. Well said

Have you checked out Bishop Carlton Pearson's Gospel of Inclusion? He got kicked out of the right-wing church for his idea that everyone -- everyone -- is saved, is worthy, and it's all going to be okay. The religion of fear, damnation and exclusion isn't healthy to one's own mind or society as a whole. I bought the book and I find his concepts to be interesting, if not wholly loving. Even if one isn't a Christian, there's value in his philosophy.

[verdalaven]

78. I haven't, but I will. Thanks.

Also, I quoted noel711's post, just above ours. Those are his beautiful words.

[jobycom]

4. Wow. Welcome to DU, and heckuva job, torgos!

Excellent post, and great questions.

Now let me rain on you a little bit. :) I don't think we need to reclaim Jesus for the left. I think we need to kick Jesus out of the argument. Rather, I mean I believe we should rebuild the insurmountable wall between religion and government, as James Madison called it, or the wall between Church and State, as Jefferson called it.

Stop using Jesus as a weapon on either side, and then neither side gets to claim him.

So if you think Jesus should just become the property of the left--and from you post I do not believe that's what you meant--then I'm against that. But if your real goal is to free Jesus from the chains of the right where the conservatives have bound him, I think that's a noble goal.

How to do that? I think the best way is to rebuild the wall. I think the reason the Right is able to use Jesus for their own needs is because the Democrats are a big tent that includes many non-Christians, and using Jesus on the Left turns off many of these. For instance, if Obama began speaking too strongly about Jesus and what he wanted him to do, I think he'd lose some of his base. There's also the issue that Democrats tend to be inclusive by nature, and that very nature makes us hesitant to exclude non-Christians, or even right-wing Christians, by claiming that we are the better Christians. We just shy away from that.

So the only way we can win is to build that wall, but even that is a problem. When we talk about the wall, the Right spins us as attacking Christians, and we're right back where we started.

So, I've got no idea what to do. :) My instinct is to simply not talk about religion in politics, and let the other side over-define themselves in a way that turns people off, until everyone gets tired of hearing about religion in politics. That happened a little bit this year, when many evangelicals finally cut the chord between themselves and Bush. Maybe they didn't vote Democrat, but many were less receptive to Bush's and McCain's attempt to embrace them.

That's all I got. Excellent post, and welcome to DU.

[torgos_pizza]

10. Great post!

I strongly believe in separation of church and state- i am just tired of people on the right who preach hate and venom claiming to hold those views in the name of jesus- i find such people SOOOO offensive.
To me, Jesus is about compassion, love, unity and empathy.

I'm referring to citizens taking Jesus back from the bigoted right wing, not politicians. I favor a secular government.

[Zhade]

86. Well, except for the fact that religious ideas are not off-limits and attacking them is NOT bigotry.

NT!

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

5. I wish I knew for sure what their major malfunction is.

But I've noticed that this variety of Christian might be able to quote scripture well, but they tend not to know how to interpret what it means. Like a child who is learning to read, they parrot the words put in front of them without fully grasping the meaning. In these situations, I have always found James 2:20 to be rather useful: "Faith without works is dead."

[honkydonkey]

7. My best friend and I aren't on speaking terms..

She is a right wing, mega-church, James Dobson follower, capitalist, fundie...

She continued to push me into a corner on the subject of politics so I finally came out swinging. The majority of our argument took place on her stupid facebook page where all her "church friends" communicate with her. At the end of my argument I told her that I was sick and tired of republicans claiming that God was on their side and that the pastors in our area were preaching from the pulpit that you either vote republican or you are going to hell. Obviously I embarrassed her in front of her church friends and she told me that she was offended by my "light handed" comments about God on her facebook page and that I better not do it again. And she ended her rant with "God ordains all governments, no matter who thinks that they're in charge. It's not about us. It's about giving Him the glory and He decides how that will happen." First off, her response doesn't even make sense to me. Second, she and people like her have been going on and on about how God would get McCain re-elected and were so sure of themselves, the majority of them went to bed early the night of the election and woke up to a total surprise. Several people I know have reported that since they have returned to work that the republicans walk around in angry silence and are making comments here and there like "God help us all" and "We are doomed". What they don't understand is God doesn't belong to them. Now they are convinced that this is a sign from God that the end is near.
My best friend is a fundie who says she's in love with Jesus and basically lives at church but what I find bizarre is that she clings to her money, etc. I once commented that Bono could take all the money he makes from their tours and cancel third world debt all by himself. She jumped down my throat and told me that if Bono wants to take all his money and burn it in a big bonfire that is his right because IT IS HIS MONEY! AND HE EARNED IT! I can't wrap my brain around how a christian can say something like that. It's in complete contrast to what I was taught about Jesus growing up. This new generation of "christians" are being taught that as long as they go on some church sponsored missions and as long as they give money to fellow church members who are in need, they are fine and right with God. They are taught that greed is ok. They don't care that they look like hypocrites and they obviously are blind to how horrible they are making christianity look to others. No wonder so many people are turned off. I'm a christian and I won't even go to church because I'm so disgusted by it all.
As far as your question about reclaiming Jesus... Jesus doesn't have to be reclaimed, he was never theirs to begin with. I think they are in for a rude awakening.

[torgos_pizza]

12. My brother is a fundamentalist Christian

And for some reason, he feels to be a good christian, he needs to feel hatred toward gays, immigrants and Muslims. All he talks about are the groups of people he hates- I told him he has totally missed the point of Jesus-

Jesus is not about hate, he's supposed to be about love. my brother calls me a naive liberal.

[jeepnstein]

18. I'm an fundamentalist...

of the highest order. I'm not even allowed to hate my enemies. It's a drag, let me tell you, but that's the rules. There are times when I'd really like to hate someone but it's just not allowed. Sure, we're supposed to boldly proclaim the Gospels but we're clearly told that we must do it in a spirit of love. There are days when it tests every bit of my being to hold to what I'm supposed to do. God wouldn't have had it written down if he didn't really mean it.

The problem with many so-called fundamentalists is they pick and choose scripture. You have to understand and embrace the whole thing to really get to the heart of Christianity. Accepting the New Testament in it's entirety is an exercise in self examination that should cut you down to the quick. It's not an easy thing to do by any stretch of the imagination. It even tells us that we'll fall short but we are still expected to devote ourselves body and soul to God's word.

Our sharpest rebukes are supposed to be saved for brothers and sisters who fall into bad doctrine and teaching. When you look at the life of Jesus, he took it easy on the sinners and really tore into the religious establishment. It was certainly within his power to condemn a poor sinner on the spot but I can't recall a reference of him ever doing it. His fire and brimstone always got vented to the religious establishment.

[honkydonkey]

66. New Testament....

My friend is an old testament fanatic and she is a pro at picking and choosing scripture. I'm not a Bible scholar so I usually can't hang when it comes to debating her on the bible. But she often throws the "my God is a jealous God" thing in my face. Since she has thrown herself into the church head first the beginning of this year, she has become a different person. She is in the Jews for Jesus thing and The Truth Project. Instead of making me want to be a part of her religion, all I've wanted to do is run the other way screaming. I consider myself a red letter Christian and I think that anyone can benefit from following Jesus's example, even if they don't believe he was the son of God. He didn't teach hate and greed, exactly the opposite. I'm happy to hear that not all fundies are drinking the hate koolaid.

[roguevalley]

57. put it to them hard. ask them why they are worshiping their minister.

that is idolatry. ask them to justify IN THE NEW TESTAMENT all their hatred and use only Jesus for the source. They won't be able to. The NT is the source for Christianity, not the OT. That is a closed to Christians as the NT is the fulfillment, or so they say. Tell them they are heretics and idolators for putting a man over god, for putting their minister over Jesus. The bastards. Show them that group at the merrill lynch bull if they argue with you.

[krabigirl]

23. OMG your friend sounds scary and very much a bully - sorry.

[stopbush]

9. Well, some of don't need the baggage of religion to take back our country.

If taking back Jesus is important to you, have at it. Some among us feel our species is ready to dump the superstition and myth that infests and informs religion and to deal with reality in realistic ways.

Ultimately, the "good" pats of religion are nothing more than the outright theft of our innate human goodness, a goodness that was hard won over millenniae of evolution and the growth of civilization. To "reclaim" mythical religious archetypes born in our species' fearful and ignorant childhood (like Jesus) as a catalyst to move forward in our human development is a bit like consulting the witch doctors to advance stem cell research.

But, have at it, if that's your choice. I just don't see the value or importance of side trips into the fantastic and fanciful byways of Bronze Aged fears when there's so much reality to deal with these days.

The wisdom and "truth" of the conceived-by-and-written-by-man holy books pale in comparison to what man has achieved since then, both intellectually and - for lack of a better term - spiritually.

[spoony]

11. All you've got is hate.

You and people like you. You hate religion and say it's all fundies. Then you hate people who're trying to take it back from fundies. Take a fucking hike.

[stopbush]

14. No, I just don't see the point of giving a carve out that I don't give to

other fanciful things.

There's nothing unreasonable in what I wrote. I treat your gods just as I treat the gods of ancient Egypt or Greece. Where's the difference? None that I can see.

BTW - you're the one throwing around the f-word in this discussion to accuse me of having nothing left but hate. What's up with that?

[Zhade]

84. What's up with that? In a word: uncertainty.

Maybe he knows, deep down, that's it's all smoke and mirrors.

[Evoman]

27. There was no hate in his post, just dismissal.

In fact, he didn't say any of the things you accuse him of. I'm getting way more hate from you than him. Seriously...was that worth an F-bomb?

[Dogtown]

39. I completely support Christians

regaining the rights to their "brand". The respectable Xians I know go about their business and leave others alone. The fundamentalists, crackpots, and charlatans have 'jacked the faith and are seriously involved in treasonous attempts to steal our government as well.


I hope you all have the strength and grace to disenfranchise the hateful.

[torgos_pizza]

13. Don't be totally dismissive of others who are religious

I respect your view, although i disagree- and though I wouldn't dismiss religious or spiritual views as ,"Bronze Aged fears", to each their own i say, and live in peace.
I do find it bigoted when atheists openly ridicule religious people, questioning the reality of what they believe. Choose not to believe, thats your right- but being totally dismissive of all religions and religious people is plain bigotry...
No doubt there is religious bigotry on the right..but on the left, there is growing prejudice as well, toward people who follow any religion- So liberals who believe in God,the Goddess, Budda, Krishna, etc are lefty out in the cold...
I've been ridiculed by more than one athiest...

[stopbush]

16. I am not dismissive of people who are religious. It's their beliefs that

I dismiss.

As an American, I fully respect the right of my fellow Americans to believe whatever they wish. However, what's not part of the bargain is my having to believe that there is even a shred of truth to what they believe.

Republicans believe in many things, like supply-side economics. I respect their right to be a Repub and to believe in supply-side theories. Does that mean that I need to say their beliefs have truth to them? Don't think so. Am I being hateful for dismissing their belief in supply side economics? Don't think so. I am out of line for openly disagreeing with their beliefs and for positing a reason why I disagree? Don't think so.

People believe in a lot of conspiracy theories, often in contradiction to the evidence. Does that mean that I must allow that there's truth to those theories - even the disproved ones - simply because someone else believes they are true?

Why should religion get special pleading that nothing else gets?

[Zhade]

85. Man, your post is so wrong I'm not sure where to even begin.

"questioning the reality of what they believe" - by the way, there's no evidence there's a reality there that's being attacked - is NOT bigotry.

"Choose not to believe, thats your right- but being totally dismissive of all religions and religious people is plain bigotry..."

We don't choose not to believe. We simply don't buy into unsupported myths. And dismissing RELIGION is not bigotry, period. Attacking believers *for being believers* can be, but criticizing the ideas of religion? Not even CLOSE to bigotry.

I'm sorry you've been ridiculed. Believing in nonsense carries its price. I don't agree with belittling you for being a believer, but you likewise have no right whatsoever to expect people to respect your beliefs. We're not obligated to do so. Welcome to America.

[jobycom]

19. Wow. That reads like a Jack Chick tract, only with the names reversed.

Do you despise Obama, Jimmy Carter, Martin Luther King? Each of them claims that Christianity is the core of their identity, and you are calling it myth and superstition. I have trouble reconciling such bigotry with liberalism.

[stopbush]

29. Yes, I'm calling religious belief myth and superstition.

How else does one explain supernatural beings for which there is no proof? How else does one explain the fanciful tales of people returning from the dead? How does one square scientific proof about how the natural world works with the mythical and superstitious "proofs" given in, say, the Bible.

Do you believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse? I mean, do you really believe it? If not, why not? Or, do you allow that it MIGHT have happened simply because a billion people on Earth believe it happened? 90% of Americans believed that Saddam had WMD at one point. That was a belief based on myth and lies. I imagine that more than a few people staked their political "identity" on that belief (Powell). Didn't make the belief true.

I haven't read quotes from the people you mentioned stating that Christianity is the core of their identities. That would be an interesting topic to discuss. Perhaps you can provide links to their statements. I'd be interested to read them.

[jobycom]

41. I'm not getting into some dumbass debate about religion, I'm talking about bigotry

I'm talking about you hating people who disagree with you every bit as vehemently as those on the far right hate us. I'm an atheist, and I'm sick of being blasted by the self-righteous right wing for that, so I'm just as disgusted when my side blasts someone else for their beliefs. Some of the smartest people to have ever lived have been devout believers. Smarter than either you or I. So don't change your belief, but don't go thinking you are the smartest person in the room and only your vision can be the right one. I don't care to argue religion, but your complaints are easily dealt with, even by an unbeliever like myself.

You haven't heard Carter or MLK talk about their religious beliefs? I find that impossible to believe. As for Obama, here: http://usliberals.about.com/od/faithinpubliclife/a/ObamaReligion.htm

[Evoman]

30. Take a freakin breath.

Where the hell does he say he despised religous people??

All that he is saying is that religion is just a collection of myth, and that it takes credit for a innate goodness in human beings, that it should not.

[jobycom]

43. Stop being disingenuous.

He repeatedly calls religion superstition, myth, fantasy and delusion. That's respect?

[Evoman]

46. Of course it isn't respect.

Not for religion anyways.

And I'm not being disingenious. Explain to me how disbelief and disrespect for RELIGION is the same thing as despising religious people?

Then explain it to my girlfriend, who is religious! She'd be suprised that I despise her because I think religion is superstition.

[Zhade]

87. Um, it IS. Are we supposed to lie and pretend it isn't?

Sure, it's unflattering, but the truth isn't required to dress nice. It just is.

[krabigirl]

22. thank you

[Evoman]

28. I don't get where people are seeing hate in your post.

I agree with you completely.

[QC]

35. Perhaps it's the snotty, condescending tone that puts people off. n/t

[stopbush]

40. Do you really find my tone snotty, or is it a matter of my calling religion what it is?

If my post is snotty then so are 99% of the posts on DU that discuss Republicans and politics in general.

When DUers wrote that there was no basis in fact for claiming SH didn't have WMD, were they being snotty?

You seem to imagine that religion is somehow exempt from being discussed in the same tone that one discusses politics or even one's preferences in beer.

[Evoman]

45. "Snottiness" is not hate. And neither does it mean he is wrong.

That is your hang up.

This is no different than people who call Democrats "elitist" or "snotty" just because they think a republican viewpoint is wrong. It is statement that is perceived in a certain way by a person who is being defensive.

[alarimer]

37. I agree with you. Our government is a SECULAR government.

And religion should have no place in it. I don't care what anyone believes, as long as they keep it to themselves.

It was religious hate that caused Prop 8 to pass and nothing more than that. So-called "liberal" Christians NEVER denounce their right-wing counterparts, nor do they kick them out of their little groups.

[rebel with a cause]

64. this thread is not about taking back the country.

It is a thread started by a Christian who is talking about taking back their religion for the RW. It is about defending their faith where they are not judged by what the fundies are doing.

My sister is a Christian and I mean that in the best way. She does good for others, tries not to judge others harshly, and is not a fanatic in her religion. She is persecuted by other family members for being who she is, they are fundies. She supported and voted for Obama and was told that she was a fool and other harsh things. She is having a hard time now because she is breaking away from the family like I did years ago, plus her one daughter-in-law (the mother of her grandchildren) is also like this. I'm not really a Christian, don't go to church and don't hold with organized religion and don't have anything to do with the rest of my family except for her. I am who she talks to about this and how she feels about her religion being taken away from her by those who hate others and want to force their ways on others. She wants her religion back and she wants her country back, but she does not see them as one and the same. They are separate.

[southernyankeebelle]

15. Great

Where have you all been in the last few years. How come we haven't heard from you all. The catholic church I grew up in believed in helping the poor and down and out. They used to believe in peace and promoting it. The right wingers hijacked jesus and you ministers on the left let them. You weren't out front fighting them and help the christains on the left by leading the way. I know you are there but not everyone does. Am to old now to get out there are fight the right. Its time for the priests and ministers that believe in the lefts views get out there and head the fight.

[Jokerman]

17. Strawman, Bad Information.

"i am getting tired of fellow liberals who assert that to be a liberal, you *have to* be an atheist"

I never heard or read anyone saying that.

"Many on the left renounced religions- at times ridiculing all people with faith, as worshiping the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'"

The Flying Spaghetti Monster ridicules intelligent design, not all people of faith.

[torgos_pizza]

21. How is this a strawman argument?

I beg to differ..

On MANY occasions I have personally encountered atheists on the left who would openly ridicule my religion to my face-
I never try to convert people- Everyone has their own spiritual path,and only they can find it, if they so choose.
There is a tendency on the left of people to broad brush all Christians as being bigoted nutcases- just as on the right there is tendency to broad brush all Muslims as being terrorists.
The one form of bigotry i have found the left and the right wings share in common is religious bigotry.

'The Flying Spaghetti Monster' does indeed refer to intelligent design, buy I often see it used online used as a mocking reference to god or gods of any relgion...


The point of my thread is the hope that Christians on the left can try and save their faith from the bigoted fringes on the right.

Non Christians and atheists can stay as they are if they so choose..

[Jokerman]

53. You are attacking liberals as being anti-religion.

"It may come as a shock to some on the left- but not all Christians are radical right wing bigots"

- That shouldn't come as a shock to anyone with basic powers of observation. Particularly when a liberal of faith has just won the presidency.


"Many on the left renounced religions"

- You claim that as personal experience, my personal experience indicates nothing of the kind.


"On MANY occasions I have personally encountered atheists on the left who would openly ridicule my religion to my face"

- I don't know how you define "ridicule" but many of us recognize a clear line between criticizing religious ideas and ridiculing an individual. There are intolerant jerks at just about every point in the religious and political spectrum, calling out all liberals doesn't help.


"The point of my thread is the hope that Christians on the left can try and save their faith from the bigoted fringes on the right."

- An admirable cause that can be accomplished without the blanket insults to all liberals.


Non Christians and atheists can stay as they are if they so choose..

- How very magnanimous of you, but we really didn't need your permission.

[torgos_pizza]

74. Are you suggesting there is little if any Christian bashing on the left???

Just about every left leaning blog I have been to, and in face to face discourse, I have seen the unfortunate tendency of *many* (but not all) atheists dismissing all religious people and ridiculing their beliefs-As I mentioned before, the right likes to bash Muslims, the left likes to bash Christians...The vocal bigotry of over zealous right wing Christians paints the faith in a very bad light, which is why I hope liberal Christians can do their best to take the faith back from the rabid right wingers. I hope muslims can do the same.

There are many people of faith who strongly advocate progressive causes who are repelled by the radical right- My hope is people who are Christians and/or Muslims we can take faith back from the bigots.

I have no problems with people who are not religious- Belief in God is not whats makes a person a good person- it's how the act on a day to day basis- Some of the finest people i have met are atheists, and some of the biggest assholes were religious. It's how you treat others that measures whether or not you are a good person.

There are indeed MANY liberals who are inclusive and tolerant of people who are religious- but to suggest there is no anti Christian bigotry on the left, and no anti Muslim bigotry on the right is just the height of ignorance....
It find it interesting how some liberals- and conservatives -dismiss different religions and religious people, yet when called on their bigotry, they claim that they are the sole victims of bigotry, and not the dispensers of bigotry. Ditto with the right. Notice I didn't say *all* but rather some...

And obviously this is a fight for Christians- I I do know there are progressive Christians out there like me sick of what's happening in America to the religion.....

The greatest freedom fighters of our time, from Dr Martin Luther King, to most the other civil rights marchers, to many of the protesters of the war in Vietnam were driven by their faith to make the world a BETTER place- not to preach hatred- Those who have faith need to bring it back to a positive path, not a path that leads to the hatred of others.

[Jokerman]

83. Yes, as a matter of fact I am.

I'll agree that there is noticeable frustration and yes, even some anger toward those who would try to use their religion to control the lives of others but no, I don't see people venting their frustrations as "bashing".

I've spent my entire life in and around the democratic party and not one single person I've met in person has ever "bashed" religion. Don't bother to post examples because I don't consider an occasional anonymous internet post as indicative of anything.

Just because someone on a liberal board says something that you think "bashes" your religion doesn’t make the left anti-religious. Just because you may want to characterize any disagreement as "bashing", doesn’t make it so.

[Zhade]

90. DISMISSING RELIGION IS NOT BIGOTRY. STOP CONFLATING IT WITH ATTACKING BELIEVERS.

That is just the height of bullshit right there.

[spoony]

79. Lol, are you new to this site?

Look around you. Look in your own post.

[Jokerman]

82. Hardly new, I've seen tactics like this time and time again.

The “left is anti-religious” smear is just another tired old right-wing talking point that has never been more than political myth. Christians, like President-Elect Obama, have ALWAYS dominated liberal and conservative politics in this country. The only thing that’s different now is that non-Christians have the internet where they can finally vent, without fear of reprisal, their frustration at being treated as second class citizens for so long.

Just because someone on a liberal board says something that you think ridicules your religion doesn’t make the left anti-religious. Just because you may want to characterize any disagreement as ridicule, doesn’t make it so. If you think that anything I’ve posted in this thread could possibly be construed as anti-religion, you are seeing things that simply don’t exist.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. Funny...

Jesus taught you to rejoice when you are mocked or dispised for his sake, and yet you are here bitching about it instead. You characterize and bear false witness with ease. And you bristle at criticism instead of rejoicing. So as usual, the so called 'religious' person is telling others to eat kosher while eating a ham and cheese sandwich. Has it ever crossed your mind to practice in your own life what was given you to practice, instead of demaning respect for yourself and the rest of your crowd? Have you considered the great wrongs done daily in the name of that faith, for centuries, and have you thought that righting those wrongs might actually be for you to do?
You should read up on Jesus and do as he intructs you. If your faith mates all did that, there would never even be a discussion about it. You don't practice it, you merely preach it at others.
You are whining when you are taught to rejoice. You are trying to say what can only be shown. You wish others to place faith in you, not in the divine, and that is very wrong indeed.

[torgos_pizza]

75. Discussing a problem that should be addressed and challenged is not 'bitching' about it

I am a human being, so it's not easy to rejoice when my religion has seemingly been commandeered by those on the right, who are driven by hatred of Muslims, gays, and anyone else who is not exactly like them.

How am I bearing false witness? Are you suggesting that Christianity has not been hijacked by the right wing? Tell that to my oldest brother, a right wing Christian who will only refer to gays as faggots, or Jews as Kikes, and yet insists that Jesus is in his heart.

Are you suggesting that many people,on the left don't write off all Christians as being right wing whackos? There are many nuts, but there are many good people in the mix as well. Again, religious intolerance is the one form of bigotry that is rife in both Conservative and Liberal circles.
..Damn straight I'm angry, but i have not given up, I do think positive changes can be made.

You are missing my point- i am not trying to win over atheists or those who are not Christians- I am hoping other progressive Christians can work together to save the faith from those who use it as a platform to gay bash, and spew racial hatred.

There is no question much evil has been done in the name of faith- That is why my hope is that people of faith can use their beliefs to be positive and charitable- Christians should do as Jesus would do- i.e help others, and strive for peace- Not threaten others with violence, or belittle people because they are gay or non religious. I have no issue with atheists- unless they treat me like some sub human for having faith.
The problem with the venom of right wing Christians is something that should indeed be discussed, and challenged. i do not believe that what they preach is what Jesus was all about- I'm for ending the hatred, and ending the bigotry. And FYI, I practice what i preach- I am a Special Needs teacher, and am active in my community with gays rights and homeless rights causes.

[Zhade]

89. Did you somehow make the mistake of thinking that you have to right to not be offended by others?

You don't - and criticizing religion is not bigotry.

[amber_86]

20. How to reclaim Jesus from the radical right

By keeping Jesus words the real words. The radical right turn the verse around to make them right. Like my cousin who is a radical right thinks she has the right to judge people, but for me I know that I do not have that right to judge. If I want to judge someone that would be myself to judge. But the bible does talk about Christians will judge other christians.

"But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
-Luke 6:35-36

So there are two different kind of Christians.
For me I don't like to judge because that is not my place. I don't believe in an Abortion, but who am I to tell you what to do with your body and who you want to love. So who ever you want to love or whatever you do with your body is not my bussiness. That is between you and God or who ever.
There will be some Christians that forget that Jesus did hang out with sinners. Let me I hang out with a lot of sinners but for me I am a sinner. I am not perfect because nobody is. But who can reclaim Jesus only yourself can. There are some that use Jesus like they know what he is talking about but they don't get his words. They mix or misuse his words for themself...to show people that they know what the heck he is talking about. Like I told my cousin just because you go to church don't make you a Christian.

I hope this help you that only you can reclaim Jesus for yourself not for anybody else. I have friends that are atheist and from other religious. And the only time we talk about things like this is when we are drinking and get in a big fight, we get over it because we know we are believe differently. But it doesn't mean we are bad people we are only humans. People just believe different things then most people because that is there right and I am not gonna judge what you believe because it is not my place to judge. But all I know Jesus still loves me and he still loves you for whatever you do.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. at times ridiculing all people with faith, as worshiping the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'

"Many on the left renounced religions- at times ridiculing all people with faith, as worshiping the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'."

You clearly don't have a clue as to what you're talking about here. You should spend some more time educating yourself before you make statements like this. Anything you said after this sentence was lost on a lot of people who just stopped reading at that point...

[jhrobbins]

34. Well, I clearly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about-

your post didn't, at least in my mind, explain what you meant.

[Ghost in the Machine]

42. Then maybe you should do some research...

ever heard of 'Google'?

In short, though, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the icon of Pastafarianism. Check out the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.venganza.org/

No one ever accused rightwing christians of worshipping the flying spaghetti monster, though. What it shows is that you can pray to anything and still get results because, hey.. shit happens.

May you be touched by His Noodley Appendage....

[bobbolink]

25. Jim Wallis was just on Air America.... on Ed Schultz show, and gave a great rundown on this.

He is calling it a "seizmic shift"... the Evangelicals voted more than twice for Obama that they did for Kerry in '04, and they are focusing on a much broader range of issues.

Hopefully there will be a clip of his interview up either on Schultz's site, or on Norm Goldman, who was sitting in for Schultz.

www.thenormaninvasion.com

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. It's possible. Evangelicals used to be at the left of Western Politics

Before Marx and the whole fundie vs. evolution wedge issue attempted to
convince churchgoers that anyone with a social justice agenda or an
education was godless.

Before that, it was the evangelicals preaching socialism and equality and being persecuted by state churches for 400 years.

They still are, in certain pockets. Catholicism has become more open minded, not less.

As Thomas Frank and others know from growing up in the Midwest or descended from German Midwesterners like me, religious folks in the upper Midwest are or used to be solidly left. Many religious pacifists fled to North Dakota and Minnesota and Iowa. Many of them are socially conservative and economically liberal.

Same story with immigrants in "Deer Hunter Country" (between western
Virginia and Pittsburgh.) Meanwhile, Scotch-Irish rednecks are more
libertarian than serious about religion.

[bobbolink]

You're right, and it's sad that so many don't know this.

It was the EVANGELICALS who formed the Abolitionist movement....the altar call was begun as a way to sign up people to work for abolition of slavery!

It was the EVANGELICALS who worked for Women's Suffrage.

It was the EVANGELICALS who worked against Child Labor.

The EVANGELICALS were the force outside the system that brought much needed change to this country.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Yep

And once there was a great New World's Fair in New York. All of that was long ago, and this is now. What can you show in recent times but for division and hatered? Some big shiney buildings with crosses on top, that 's what.

And in every case you claim, Chruches worked with others, the were not 'the' force as you claim. Susan B Anthony for example was not an 'evangelical' any more than I am. So don't get greedy with the credit taking. Let your yea be yea, your nay be nay, as your book says.

[bobbolink]

61. I hear your anger, and don't feel like being your target.

When you start calling me names, that's it for me.

If you want to back off and maybe educate yourself a bit, try looking at a few Sojourners magazines.

But... if you're going to dump on me, and call me names, don't bother responding to me anymore.

I'm done being your whipping post.

[really annoyed]

80. That's Not True

Yes, evangelicals worked for all of these causes. However, they were not fully responsible for the success of each movement. A good book on this topic is, Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan Jacoby. It goes into depth about the role of secularists working with the religious communities to achieve progressive social goals.

[bobbolink]

81. Nobody said they were the only ones....

However, I really don't think it was the "secularists" who instituted the altar call in order to sign up people for the Abolitionist cause.

:evilgrin:

[Zhade]

91. Um, bullshit. There were countless atheists and non-christians who did that as well.

Don't EVEN try to take credit for helping to fix the problem that started with religion!

[TexasObserver]

31. I agree. Jesus was a liberal. He wanted to spread the wealth.

We need to take him back. He was on our side. He was never one of them.

[Gregorian]

32. By realizing that the bible has one message- LOVE

Period. End of subject.

Love they neighbor.

It is a commandment.

There is nothing else to take away from the bible. No preaching. No studying. No praying.

Love thy enemy.

Even Jesus said the commandments can be summed up in less than ten.

The problem we have here is not with religion. It is the same problem we have with justifying a war. Separation for gays. Lack of health care. Tax cuts for the rich.

The problem is justification. By whatever means. Through lies about WMD's. Through lies about money. And lies about the bible.

It's about lies. It took more than just religious nuts to pass Prop 8. And it took more than neocons to get bombs raining down on Baghdad.


Love is difficult when living in an imperfect world. If it were perfect there wouldn't be a bible. And we'd all be living in harmony. The key to it all is to try. To try and do what seems impossible.

By the way, I have faith in Obama. He is exemplary. He never so much as cursed a single person in his entire nomination process. He may be the help we need to bring this to light. But Obama or not, the answer is to be bigger than what we have been. The authoritarian mindset is cursed. But then so are we all. It's time to stop the excuses. I'm angry right now. I'm looking for nirvana. And I can't find it. So I curse those who have gotten in my way. Look we're in our own way.

I've made my point and more than I needed to say.

Edit- this has nothing to do with the authoritarian mindset. I didn't need to mention that.

[Progressive_In_NC]

36. You are correct, Jesus gave two commandments...Love God and Love your neighbor

If you live your life doing those two things only, at the end you should have no worries.

[RedLetterRev]

71. Hello, neighbor and exactly

I can't tell you how many times I've posted a link to Mt22:34-40. It's a handy, handy thing I keep bookmarked ;)

[nichomachus]

33. The essential difference between Martin Luther King and the bigots of today

Other than the bigotry, of course.

Martin Luther King's faith underlay his drive for social justice. In other words, he was motivated by faith to help other people. He was not trying to force people to accept his religious beliefs.

The drive for social justice can be motivated my many things - not all of them religious. I can make a good case for racial integration without referring to Jesus or the bible.

However, the bigots of today are trying to get everyone to follow their religious beliefs -- and their case cannot be made on a non-religious basis. This is why the Prop Hate people had to rely on fear, deception, and lies. They were pushing a bankrupt policy. Their program does not withstand scrutiny in the secular arena. Martin's did.

[RufusTFirefly]

44. Yes. I'm a big Jesus fan, and I don't even believe in him

So you can be sure that I won't be trying to convert anybody.

I'm also a big fan of Martin Luther King and Gandhi. Inspirational figures, mythical or otherwise, are important to many people as a source of hope and a vessel for ideals, not a bludgeon for imposing one's inflexible worldview on others. King, Gandhi, and Jesus (at least the Jesus in the Jefferson Bible) never commanded. They taught by example and inspired.

[bobbolink]

48. thank you. Great words of wisdom.

:thumbsup:

[holiday]

38. I do believe the only way to salvation is through Jesus,

but if you are following Jesus... you can't turn a blind eye to death, destruction, ruining God's planet, hunger and illness.

So I think works are very very important. To be Christian means to be Christ like. So let's stop wearing "Christian" as a label and start using it as a verb.

[torgos_pizza]

49. I believe that Jesus is one of many paths to enlightenment

I do believe in Jesus,but reject the church propaganda that only by worshiping him can you see heaven....

When any religion says their god is the only god, or the best god of all, then they fall victim to their own shortsightedness and arrogance.

Doesn't it make sense that different socities would interpret God in different ways? Who is to say one is more or less valid than the other?


For christians, I think best way to honor jesus is to be a good person, and help those in need.

[dkofos]

47. Do what you must. I can't be bothered.

[PennyP]

50. You need to start in the progressive churches

Sadly, it is the right wing Christians that are the most vocal, and they are just as bigoted against your brand of Christianity as atheists may be towards religion in general.

My issue is this, if there is a great number of Christians like yourself, why aren't they raising their voices in protest against the right wing fringe fundies? If I saw a good number of Christians doing this, I'd be more likely to feel charitably towards the faith.

Instead, all I hear from Christians coming from the media and the ether of the web is that anyone who isn't just like them is unamerican, sub-human, and hated by god. Can you blame an agnostic like myself then for generally feeling that Christianity is a source of evil and intolerance?

If you guys want to save your religion from the agents of intolerance, you are going to have to ALL have to get going and start shouting this from the rooftops.

[FiveGoodMen]

52. Agreed.

Only Christians can participate in the fight to reclaim Jesus.

If atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. try to weight in we are inevitably -- and somewhat understandably -- ruled out of court. We don't believe so, of course, we wouldn't understand.

SO: only Christians can take back Jesus from the SBC nut jobs.

Get going. It's important.

[Fumesucker]

65. A great many atheists in the US are former theists..

A large majority I suspect, there really aren't that many people in the US who grew up in atheist households.

And as former theists we do indeed understand theists.

Far, far better than theists understand us.

[hamsterjill]

51. I'm not sure how to do it, but

I'm glad that we are having these discussions.

For too many years, there has not been enough "opposition" to the likes of the hatemongers who wish to justify their actions by saying they are Christians. It's time for those of us who feel differently to find a voice and use that voice.

To me, as is expressed here already several times, Christianity is about compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, love and understanding. It is not about hate and fear. When I see someone like James Dobson write a stupid letter predicting events eight years in the future, which letter is so clearly written to incite hate and contempt for Obama, I am smart enough to know that I'm not looking at real Christianity in action.

So I'm glad this subject is being discussed. It's not so much to me that we take Jesus back, as much as it is that we claim ownership to compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, love and understanding instead of allowing fear and hate to get the attention.

[bobbolink]

62. What a beautiful sentiment!

I'm with you!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SoCalDem]

55. I'd like to "take Jesus back from them"

and then escort him back to the CHURCH, where he's more "at home".. Then all the people who love him more than life itself, can visit him anytime they want, and I don't have to watch or listen:)

[GeorgeGist]

56. If Jesus is THEIR captive ...

then Jesus cannot be YOUR savior.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. Big news:

Jesus was never captive to them. He exists, but you will never ever find him where you look, among the vipers and pretenders, with your high horses and desire to announce your holiness.
You are all Fred Phelps, and Jesus parties at my gay house, and he does not want to talk to you and wants me to tell you that you let him down and he knows you not. He came to you and you took away his marriage rights, so now he knows you not. He keeps saying that. I know them not. Seems to mean it.

[Festivito]

63. We made a great stride this election. Don't mind DU operatives.

Some are here on DU just to disrupt just under the radar so they don't get banned, deleted or logged out.

The really bad problem is where some thirty years ago, operatives were sent into the church structures to disrupt churches in order to make them more Conservative.

Some churches have highly placed people who sell out God for nice golf trips with wealthy benefactors. Since God has blessed these people as wealthy, therefor their words are important and some passages of the Bible become relegated to the back of the list. Sometimes the story line is embellished with a new Readers Digest style warmth. And story by story the ideas the Bible once presented become a new narrative.

We have much work to do.

[codjh9]

67. Of course not all religious people are fundies - but it took my ex-wife to convince me of that -

I was so pissed off for so long after my brother became a brainwashed fundie that I was against ANYTHING religious, Jesus, churches, ANY of it, until with her help I realized there really are a lot of nice, normal religious people out there... but I still loathe the fundies.

[RobertDevereaux]

69. I just spoke with Jesus...

He said those guys have got hold of some *Bizarro* Jesus, and it ain't, nor never has been, him!

[PurityOfEssence]

76. Until now, there was a religious party and a secular one...

...but no more.

The pernicious jesusification has been quite successful; now the lesson is well imprinted: religion is NECESSARY in the U.S. Government, and it intends to spread.

What price glory?

[Nikki Stone1]

77. We're gonna need a blow torch to do that.

They've got Jesus locked in a safe, chained to a cabinet.

[upi402]

88. yeah, jesus was a socialist. and I'm

just so very 'turned the corner' with the religious lunacy in this country. they just can't stop themselves.. like drug addicts justifying their bullshit..