Do you really believe in democracy?

[Ifonly]

Barack Obama, our candidate, won the presidential election on Tuesday. I predict that the issue of voter fraud, unlike in 2000 and 2004, is going to drop from the consciousness of the vast majority of democrats/progressives like yesterdays old newspaper. Why should we care anymore, our guy got in? But if you had read Jim and Ken Collier's great work on vote fraud called Votescam: The Stealing of America (read here for a sample), you would know that this stuff of stealing elections in this country has been going on for years and years, way before we ever heard of Bush or his father running for president.

What I want to know is, what if you found irrefutable evidence that Barack Obama had won the election through the manipulation of voting machines? Would you be willing to report this? Are you still interested in every vote counts? What if McCain had actually been the true winner? Would you allow this truth to trump your disgust of his politics? Or is democracy just a tool to be used to get y/our political agenda implemented on society at large?

Just to make myself perfectly clear, I am not saying I believe he didn't deserve to win or that he stole the election. This is just an exercise, a theoretical situation I am asking you to contemplate. I am assuming you are a supporter of Obama. And if you were faced with this situation, where by revealing the truth you would be putting Obama's getting in to the white house in serious peril. And I assume you would have a little tug of war going on in your head, between one part of you which wants to be honest and truthful and do the right thing, and the other part of you that wants with all your heart to see Obama become the next president of the United States, instead of the war-monger John McCain. Which side would win the battle?

[wtmusic]

1. Everyone needs to face up to a loss

Dems are not immune. We did it in 2004 when there was a much better reason for disputing the outcome.

And voting reform must continue. One of the leading computer security experts in the nation, Bruce Schneier, maintains that "computerized voting is a horrendously dangerous idea". For good reason.

[unpossibles]

2. Yes I do.

However it is my firm belief that the only way the right can win - and they have admitted this occasionally - is to discourage people from voting. This says to me two things:

1 - they are willing (and able at times) to cheat, and do not consider subverting democracy bad if used for a "good" end, as evidenced by their election antics as well as their past foreign policy.

2 - we do not have the same motive or reason to cheat, as according to almost all polls, most people are fairly liberal-moderate in their stance on actual issues.

I do not condone cheating by either side, nor even gray-area disenfranchisement. I would not support someone on our side if they were found to have cheated, BUT this also does not apply in the least to Obama. Looking at Obama's HUGE and obvious popularity and support - as seen in every poll and in the size of his audiences, and in the post-election reaction around the world - says to me that he had no reason to cheat. He also does not strike me as someone who would cheat based on the way he ran the campaign.

If it helps, solving and correcting the many problems in our electoral system is still very important to most progressives, and to many conservatives. If you look at Obama's website, it is something he is also concerned about and is on his list of important agendas.

[TexasObserver]

3. Right. You're worried about whether Obama might have stolen the election.

I'm always worried about elections being stolen. Not by Democrats. By the GOP.

I'm never worried about Democrats stealing elections.

I do believe votes were likely stolen in some GOP controlled states this time, but that may not be something that can be proved.

Your hypothetical is stupid, so I won't entertain it.


Do we still need election reform? YES. Do we still need paper ballots? YES.

[Ifonly]

7. I am NOT worried that Obama might have stolen the election, OK???!!!!

You have totally misunderstood the point of my original post. I do not believe for one second that Obama stole the election! Please read my original post again. I am asking how you would react to a hypothetical situation.

[malaise]

4. Did you accept those two Bush terms in office

with all the evidence in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004?
Be very careful how you answer. 80% of Americans said the country was on the wrong track under Rethugs. If anything I suspect that President Elect Obama won by a much larger margin than has been presented. Those Georgia and Alaska figures suggest that Rethug fraud is alive and well.

Get over it - you lost big time...enjoy your short stay. :D

[BeFree]

5. Obama stole the election?

The facts point otherwise. So there is that.

The very idea that we must hold onto is this: stealing a presidential election is possible. Not only possible, but can be done and all tracks of such a theft can be easily hidden.

When we put an end to that possibility, questions such as your's become mute. But for now it is a question worth pondering. As for me, no, I do believe in democracy and the theft of any election goes against that core belief.

[bowens43]

6. go away.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. Since the voting machines were under Repub control, how did Obama manage to

get them working for him??