The Official DU "tom_paine stands up to eat his plate of crow thread"

[tom_paine]

I was wrong. Let me say it again. Let me say it loudly and joyfully..for I have never been more happy to be so.

Like most DUers and probably billions around the world, I have cried over this. Tears of joy, of course. I have cried in the past 20 years, but not a whole lot...when one of my dearest friends was taken by a car accident, when another drowned in a duck hunting accident, both too tragically young by far, and other intense moments like Tuesday Night that has still got me and the entire world basking in it's afterglow this morning and probably will for weeks.

But above it all, I realized what (besides the obvious joys involved in Obama's election) I was REALLY crying those tears of joy for.

I was wrong.

I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong.

That enough for you DU? :rofl:

Please don't misconstrue me. Am I saying I was wrong about EVERYTHING? No. Am I saying that all the talk of Bushie Electoral Fraud is tinfoilhattery just because Obama won? No, there's too much evidence already lying around to think that.

No, I am not admitting wrongness to that. But for eight years, I have said, in my anger and pain and my not realizing that sometimes, though it's a cliche, it REALLY IS "darkest before the dawn", that the American People had been reduced to the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans.

In my anger and pain and despair (and my deep commitment to resistance to tyranny and tyrannies of the mind, as Jefferson said) I let myself doubt us. It's no secret on DU. I must have said that very line a thousand times since I arrived at DU in March 2001. I hereby repudiate and withdraw that statement that I myself mistakenly made in my anger and despair (though that is NO excuse) so many times on DU.

The American People ARE NOT the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans.
The American People ARE NOT the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans.
The American People ARE NOT the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans.
The American People ARE NOT the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans.
The American People ARE NOT the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans.

I had a friend who knew all along, though. He said to me many times, It's always been this way with the American People. We might not always catch on so fast, but once we stir and are roused, tyrants LOOK THE FUCK OUT.

I didn't believe him. I told him after the last eight years, after Hannity and Savage and Limbaugh and Rove fooled so many so easily, I couldn't believe it until I saw it.

I saw it. I believe it now. I was WRONG about it before...VERY WRONG. I hereby apologize to the people whom I said it about...which is everyone including ME.

God Bless the American People and yes...

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!

(That is OUR LINE and WE'RE TAKING IT BACK, along with the flag, the concept of what True Patriotism is and a HOST of other things that the Bushies have stolen and soiled THAT ARE OURS!)

No more backing down from bullies and tyrants, and I hope to God our Democratic Congress realizes this and allows Brack Obama to pour some fresh guts down their (as always, with a few notable exceptions) "Nancy Pelosi" throats.

[peekaloo]

1. I would like to thank you!

You inspired me to get off my ass, get out and volunteer.

:hug:

:bounce:

[grace0418]

2. Tuesday we elected an amazing leader, but all of us TOGETHER must go out and win

the war against hate, intolerance and greed. As we can see by the reactions of the RWers and the passing of hateful legislation like Prop 8, we still have a long battle ahead.

Great post!

[tom_paine]

7. Oh my yes, the REAL WORK has not even yet begun.

But how much more joyously will that work be performed knowing that I was wrong about this?

How many stars in the sky? How many grains of sand on a beach?

Unimaginably, unspeakably, unquantifiably more joyous.

Oh, HAPPY DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[But....]

3. np Tom...

I'm just waiting to see if Nancy puts up more of a fight with Obama then she did for Bu$h:eyes:

[formercia]

4. The American people elected Obama just to spite you.

Not likely, but every little bit helped. :rofl:

I hear you bro.

[Gold Metal Flake]

5. On the whole, having read you posts for years now tom_paine, I have to say...

I like you.

You're the real deal.

But, I also have to say:

SOME American People ARE the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans

We will have to deal with them. The backlash cometh. I know you will be around to sound the alarm, because that is what you do, and I appreciate that.

[tom_paine]

8. I am honored to be spoken of so highly. Thank you.

And yes, some people EVERYWHERE, in every nation and at all times, have always been the mental equivalents of the 1930s Germans.

That is part of statistics and human nature. These people will always be with us. THAT is on of the reasons, IMHO, the Enlightenment happened (the rest of us got together and said to those idiots after 1000 years of medeval Bushie Darkness and Ignorance "ENOUGH!!!!!!") and the Founding Fathers lit their candle in the dark in 1776 that really was the pinnacle and culmination of the Age of Enlightenment.

So, as far as when they "come back", they are here now. They have always been with us and they will always be with us.

But the Founding Fathers left us the tools to deal with THEM. And to do it without resorting to the awful internecine blooshed and violence that has marked so much of human history.

They gave us the tools. And as long as the tools are still functional, even if they are rusted and damaged as they are today, we can still use them to save ourselves...like we did on Tuesday.

Then we can clean and fix the rusty tools, restoring them, if not to shiny newness, then something resembling shiny newness.

God Bless America and God Bless THat Wacky Bunch of Idealistic "Hippie" Liberals, The Founding Fathers (and Mothers)!

:toast: :party:

[IrateCitizen]

9. Although I disagree wholeheartedly with your interpretation of the Enlightenment...

I have to say that I give you major props for the mea culpa, and it is certainly an instance in which it is a GREAT thing to have been mistaken.

:cheers:

The discussion of the Enlightenment is a topic for another time. ;-)

[tom_paine]

10. I look forward to it. I am always excited to learn new perspectives and aspects of history.

PM me with your contentions, if you wish, which is the best way to guarantee I see your message and can respond. I will probably have to do some research myself before I reply, so that also suggests at least at first a PM is the way to go for this discussion.

Either way, yes we should definitely have this conversation some time in the future and I very much want to hear your opinion.

[caseycoon]

6. I need a couple of your 'I was wrongs'

I was afraid the American people in general would not rise up in sufficient numbers to elect Barack Obama in spite of the fact that he is exactly what this country has needed for so long. My apologies to the general public! I was wrong. :hi:

In addition, having survived almost 8 years of... well y'all know of what & of who, I was afraid that once again the monsters would find a way to steal the election. Yes, I read all the reasons why they couldn't, and I agreed with most of what was said in those posts, but still I was afraid. It's been hell living in fear!
I'm glad I was wrong on this, too.

GOD BLESS AMERICA & THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!
:toast:

[Old and In the Way]

11. I don't think you were wrong about your concerns with election integrity.

Problem this time was the polling was too favorable to Barack in too many states with too many people watching to rig the results. Had this been polled tight, we might have had a different outcome. Regardless, I really want election integrity to be a priority with this Congress. Make the process transparent with adequate safeguards to stop voter suppression techniques.

[Mabus]

12. You, me and Rachel

And then I worked as hard as I could to alleviate the fears I had.

Thank you America for helping to restore my badly battered faith in you. :patriot:

[cobalt1999]

13. Funny, the exact same things are now being said by the Freepers

Election fraud, stupid Americans, voting machines, etc.

[tom_paine]

15. Don't be fooled into thinking this is merely a "he-said/she-said".

That is a false dichotomy and Bushie tactic to nullify their own obvious shameless criminality.

DON'T YOU BE FOOLED.

I will have to search for the post in which I addressed this idea at length, so that you can view my reasoning on this issue and judge for yourself the validity.

I will come back and re-edit this post with the new link when I do, but for now, let me just encapsulate WHY this is not a "he-said/she-said" and that DU and DUers are most deniniftely NOT "just a leftist version of Freek Repubic.

The vast majority of Freepers (at least from my experiences with running into them online and in person) have the historical knowledge of a second-grader. Literally. Thus, when the Bushies tell them their "invented history" these peple turn around and internalize the lie as real history. From this gullible, unquestioning, poisonous foundation of false histories and lies of ommission, they can be lead to believe anything.

As Voltaire said, I believe, "Those who can be made to believe absurdities can be made to accept atrocities.

To boil it down further, "Most DUers can at least passably quote and have read some or all of the works of the Founding Fathers. Most Freepers cannot quote Jefferson and Paine (I have yet to meet a single one who could), but they CAN quote Savage Weiner and Loofah O'Harrassment.

If THAT doesn't disabuse you of that notion that this is all just a he-said/she-said and DU is just a lefty Freek ReStormtrooper of Tyrants' Asslickers, then wait a moment and come back to read the link below, which further elaborates why I think your analysis is facile and wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4384585&mesg_id=4386104

Sorry to be so harsh, but it's how I feel.

[cobalt1999]

21. Disagree.

It's more of a study in human nature.

From FR 2008 and DU 2004
Denial --- "We didn't really lose; it was stolen from us"
Anger --- "He'll never be my president"
Depression --- "I'm so low, I don't know what will become of our country"
Extremists --- "There will never be another election" "we'll be in re-education camps"

Step back a little and it was/is interesting how passionate people react when things don't go their way.

[tom_paine]

30. I respect your opinion, and have given it some thought. While there are some kernals of truth

in what you say, some deeply universal truths, I believe, you are still mistaken in this case.

Let me exaggerate the situation to the nth degree for a moment, just to illuminate my point more sharply. Then, if you still disgaree we will just respectfully agree to disagree and move on. For that is the essence of America. :patriot:

Here it is:

"The Nazis say the Jews are serial liars and propagandists out to take over the world, but the Jews say the Nazis are serial liars and propagandists out to take over the world."

This, I believe, is a historically accurate, if brief, interpretation of the "war of words" between the Left and Right in Germany, circa 1928-1932.

Again, I exaggerate to the nth degree simply to bring my point into starker relief. Sometimes, maybe even, as you intimiate, almost always, it IS just a he-said/she-said requiring an application of long-viewed human truth regarding the dynamics of passionate people, as you said in your reply, and which I respect and partially agree with...just not in this particular case.

Thus, we may agree to disagree and that's cool.

You know, I just thought of somthing. An experiment you could try to perform. Go to FR, sign up and log in. Then make a respectfully diagreeing post as you did here. Guage the response. Does the response you received lend credence and credibility to my hypothesis or yours?

Let us use the scientific method, if possible, to give us more insight into the topic.

And while I will wholly understand if you choose not to try this experiment, if you do, please PM me with the results.

OK, I've said all I can on the topic. Reply if you wish, I'd be glad to read, but I'm not sure I have anything more to say.

[cobalt1999]

36. We'll just have to disagree.

I like the idea of the experiment and something like that would be a good project for a college student, but I really don't want to spend any more time there beyond a glimpse now and then.

Good reply though, I'll have to think on that.

[Alcibiades]

56. Here's another great Voltaire quote

that neatly sums up this election, as well as the difference between DU and Freeperland:

J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte. La voici: Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules! Dieu m'a exaucé.

[tom_paine]

62. Yes, just so. God, make our enemies look ridiculous.

Les têtes de pénis ont autant sens comme lavabo complètement de vomi.

See how cool the Internet is? You think I speak French!

:rofl:

Eclair! Eiffel Tower!

:rofl:

[tblue37]

14. A minority of passionate people can always have things their way here,

at least for a while, because Americans tend to be busy going about their lives rather than paying attention to politics. It is true that our educational system and our entertainment and infotainment establishment, including RW media, keep Americans ignorant and play on our fears and prejudices. But even at that, America has long been a center left country. When asked about specific issues, a majority of Americans come down on the liberal side, but they have been conditioned by the media and the RW echo chamber to believe that “liberal” is a dirty word. It’s like the many young women who support all the feminist issues and rights but who recoil in horror at the suggestion that they themselves might properly be called feminists.

Even as the elections ran close enough to allow them to be stolen by Republicans (and they have been stolen, including some Senate and House seats, and even in 2006, when we regained the majority), that happened only because too few Americans actually voted.

But when enough people got mad enough--and, thanks to Obama, inspired enough--there was no way to keep it close enough to steal, though the Republicans certainly tried their hardest to do so and undoubtedly shaved, suppressed, or switched a lot of votes.

But overall, I believe that apathy and inattention are more powerful than bigotry in causing Americans to allow the haters to take power.

Let me give you an example: Here in Kansas in 1999, a RW fundie faction on the Board of Education (BOE) changed our science standards to downplay evolution and permit the teaching of intelligent design. When Kansans (a majority of whom actually are pretty conservative) realized what was going on, they rose up and voted the RW jerks out. Then, thinking they had taken care of the problem, the Kansas voters simply went back to sleep, so that in the next board of education election, the fundies managed to slip in some more stealth candidates, and once again they began trying to change our science standards to include intelligent design.

See what I mean? The voters weren't in favor of fundie science standards--they just weren't paying attention. BOE elections didn't seem that important to them, so they let an impassioned minority push the BOE in a direction that even the majority of conservatives did not want. I have no doubt that we will have to keep fighting this same battle at every BOE election.

As long as the media are controlled by RW powers, and as long as our educational system is in the crapper (which it certainly is), we can’t expect American voters to understand what the sneaky RW is doing, or to understand what they can do to counter it. The best thing about Obama’s campaign was that it drew so many previously uninterested and uninformed young people into the process. They are in the pipeline now, and they may actually change things in future elections.

But we have to push hard for electoral reform, and for a reinstatement of the fairness doctrine, as well as for a de-Nazification of the DoJ and the federal bench. Otherwise, we will wake up from our complacency in a couple of years to discover that they are committing the national equivalent of trying to change the science standards again to emphasize intelligent design.

BTW, remember what Winston Churchill said about Americans: we can always be counted on to do the right thing—after exhausting all other possibilities.

[tom_paine]

16. Well said. Wish I could rec this post. This deserves it's own OP.

[tblue37]

17. Thanks, but most of my OPs sink like stones.

I think that as a teacher I tend to be a bit more long-winded than most people are inclined to tolerate on the internet.

[tom_paine]

18. So do most of mine. DO NOT LET THAT STOP YOU. Remember Obama.

Sure it sounds kind of dumb applying Obama's lofty words to this small thread on a small corner of the vast internet, but YES YOU CAN!

And so what post something and it sinks like a rock? Does that make it any less worthy? Sometimes it's just bad luck that a thread sinks. Bad timing.

Today the threads are flying fast and furious. Threads sink FAST on a day like today.

So what? Take your shot and speak your peace. If it sinks, you can always wait a couple of days and repost it. You might be amazed that the second time, the exact sam post catches fre while the first one sank without a reply.

Chaos Theory.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Also, my father was a lifelong teacher. Thank you for your service to the nation. :patriot:

[ellie]

I, too, thought

McCain would win. I told my husband on Tuesday night that I have never been so glad to be wrong. We are going to get an American flag for our house now. I'm pretty proud to be an American.

[old mark]

19. TP : thanks for this post - nice to have our country back, isn't it?

rec.

mark

[Matariki]

20. I was in a crowd full of hipsters waving flags and chanting USA tuesday night

Our 'side'. Chanting USA and proudly waving the flag. A beautiful thing to behold.

on edit: this crowd

[rockymountaindem]

22. Thank you tom_paine

I hope we can take back our country *permanently* and never have to stare down people like Bush again.

[Alter Ego]

23. I can appreciate Lee Greenwood's song finally, because

I'm now, for the first time in eight long years, proud to be an American.

[indepat]

24. Certainly most Americans are not the mental equivalent of the 1930s Germans, but a strong case could

be made that a goodly portion of about 45% are. :D

[tomp]

25. I don't think you were wrong on either count.

election fraud is real.

the people are sheep. that includes every democrat who thinks obama is going to turn things around.

this time they are being lulled by mere oratory.

i am more frightened than ever because the democratic party has regained it's patina of opposition while maintaining its collaboration. the president for all, indeed. suckers, all.

flame away.

[Orsino]

27. The OP was "wrong" only in degree, not in kind.

When our economy becomes the equivalent of that of 1930s Germany, I presume our reaction will be analogous. Most Americans are still too comfortable, though, to become brownshirts.

[tom_paine]

31. I hope you are wrong. I think you are wrong. But you might be right.

We shall see.

No flames here. You have every right to feel as you do. I disagree, though I do not categorically reject the possibility that what you say is true.

I also might add that it is a bit tasteless to come to a victory party (which is what DU is this week) and piss in the champagne.

That has nothing to do with your particular view or whatever, just with common curtesy.

Also, I hope than in two or four years, tomp, you'll be making this very same kind of post and saying Obama surprised the shit out of you by being The Real Deal.

Only time will tell about that, so there nothing more to say but wait and see.

I hope you are wrong. More importantly, I hope that, in your heart, YOU hope that you will be proved wrong on this one.

[tomp]

43. your last point is interesting...

...it's what my wife keeps saying to me, that i'm hoping things go wrong to be proved right. it's not true. i will be very happy to be proved wrong, but after many years of paying attention to and participating in politics, i've never had to change my view becasue i was proved wrong.

in relation to pissing in the champagne, let me know when the right time to criticize obama is, it's a little hard to tell..not before, not after...besides he had the temerity to bring powell into it at the last minute and spoil the party for me. i mean, it really sunk me to think that his bullshit about looking into the allegations against bush, inc. was just so much window dressing. fuck the party, man, people need to get this straight. i don't owe anybody anything.

what gets me the most is that obama's rhetoric is REALLY good. it's hard not to believe. it's hard not to be hopeful. but i've had my political heart broken too many times, and now again by obama.

[tom_paine]

55. C'mon, dude, you know I didn't mean it like THAT.

I'm not telling you you CAN'T say what you want to say whenever you want to say it and stand proudly while you are doing it.

For me to take any other position would be hypocritical given my feelings on the Russert Bloviation-Fest and Thought Police when that little DU dustup happened.

So, please don't take it like that.

As I said, we did our part as citizens. We pushed the defensive line and opened a hole for our Star Runningback to plow through. But if he doesn't hit the hole, Walter Payton-style, those damned Dallas Cowboys are going to tackle him in the backfield for a loss.

It's happening in slow motion. The ball has just been hiked. President "Sweetness" Obama doesn't even have the ball yet. Let's wait and see how the play forms before we started talking in the past tense (how exactly HAS your heart been broken by Obama considering he hasn't spent one day in office yet?).



(don'tcha' just love those sports metaphors? GO EAGLES!)

[tomp]

59. well, if it's okay, then don't scold me for it.

sorry, but i don't see it the way you do. obama is no star to me. my #1 issue is holding bush accountable. obama has signaled he's not going there. it's the big forgive and forget thing that succeeding administrations always do. this is the absolute worst thing possible for the u.s. add to that foreign and domestic policies that are bad to mediocre at best, and it looks to me like he's dropped the ball before he's picked it up. it's not dems against repubs, it's regular people against slimy politicians who are exceptionally good at pulling the wool over our eyes.

[tom_paine]

61. You know, I pretty much agree with you about that necessity, too, and am a bit disappointed

that we aren't going striaght to war-crimes and/or felony trials for CheneyBushRoveRumsfeldPowellRiceGozales, too.

But I have come to understand the need for patience, and am willing to set aside my feeling to give the man a chance. The economy is burning down, and if it spirals out of control we're all fucked worse than ever in our lives.

And if you think I am all a-gush over Obama to the degree that I am not going to continue doing my duty as an American and PUSH him to do these things, or not going to "snap out of it" if it becomes clear he's not the man we thought he was, then you are mistaken.

In the end, we must agree to disagree, I think, and wait and see. I understand and respect your opinion, and it may yet turn out to be that way. I just do not belive it will. Neither of us can know.

So why not chill and enjoy the victory. Time to worry tomorrow.

Consider this: Even IF you are 100% right and Obama is just another slimy politician. If the Dem-Repsare one party both the same horrible blah blah blah then at least the "Democrat Flavor" of Tweedledee and Tweedledum usually means that things are a LITTLE improved over what would have been with McBush/Palin and a Rethug Congress?

Can we agree on that, eh?

Can't you just enjoy for a moment even THAT reality? It is, in fact, a reality, even IF Obama is what you say.

Think about it. I have said all I have to say on the topic. Interesting to have this conversation with you. Always value a disagreeing perspective intelligently put.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The REAL work has yet to begin.

[SteppingRazor]

26. Tom, you're a big fan of quoting the heavy hitters, so lemme lay one on you:

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else."
-- Winston Churchill


I think you might have been right in your estimation of the American mindset in, say 9/11/2001 through early 2005 or so, but things have been changing swiftly since then. You can only lean on us so long before we start shoving back. The fact that a few of us shoved back earlier than others is no proof of the inability of others to do the same, once they see the situation in their country with the right kind of eyes.

[tom_paine]

39. Some else mentioned that quote today. Great quote. Chruchillian.

Great quote and great post.

[Sophree]

50. I was thinking of that same Churchill quote

When I read tp's post.

And I love your posts, tom_paine, always have.

It's good to be wrong sometimes! :hi:

[Beam Me Up]

28. I'm not sure you were wrong.

Had the race been closer, the Republicans would have stolen it. Had the economic crisis and the Palin selection not come right when it did, despite Obama's charisma, he might not have garnered a sufficient margin to have overcome electoral deception. Maybe we got lucky.

Personally, I want more radical change than I believe Obama will deliver. I voted for Obama but I would rather have been voting for Kucinich. Still, realistically, I understand Kucinich couldn't have galvanized the American people the way Obama did. Kucinich, had he been our candidate, would have lost and I would be very seriously considering my options for abandoning this country for good. Like you, I have also teared up. Listening to some of Obama's speeches, his call for unity and integrity, I could feel it while marking my ballot, I could feel it watching the amazing crowd in Grant Park. I don't regret having voted for Obama, he seems like a truly fine human being and truly worthy of the Office of President. But I'm also aware that the problems this country (and, my extension, the world) faces are enormous. I'm holding my breath to see what kind of Cabinet he puts together -- this is going to tell us a lot. I'm holding my breath to see whether or how this new Administration and the Democratic majority in Congress are going to address the truly important issues: Election integrity, the so-called War on Terror and all the evil that is associated with it, the criminality of the previous administration, corporate media's responsibility in overlooking if not sustaining much of that criminality, and the restoration of our civil liberties -- especially our rights to privacy. To me, these are very important issues as well as hundreds more like the economy, affordable health care, on and on and on. I'm holding my breath to see whether or not this country can begin to reclaim not only the semblance of a democratic republic -- one still too easily swayed by lies, half-truths and deceptions -- and begin to actually manifest that shining light of liberty to the world we have always been led to believe we already were.

The banking and corporate interests with their deep ties to the military industrial complex, intelligence and counter intelligence and the national security state -- the people who put George W. Bush in the White House and kept him there for EIGHT DAMN LONG YEARS have not gone away. Neither has the CoG implemented on 9/11. These are the real threats to our country and our vision of promise and hope. I suspect their attitude toward us as citizens with the power to elect our leadership and Obama as President is far more cynical than we can even imagine.

We'll see.

[tom_paine]

32. I'd like to dismiss what you say out of hand, but I can't. It's too well said and defended.

Let me just say that, yes, even today, somewhere buried deep within me, where it can't bother me on this day, are those very real fears you speak of.

But for the moment, we have doen our job, and as you so correctly say there is nothing to do but wait and see (well, besides continue our activism in helping to push for those things we seek, and the nation may literally need to survive, that you listed so well).

But yes, and sadly, your point is well-taken.

And yes, how swiftly and throughly Obama and the Democratic Leadership will tell us some things, probably in a hurry. The same way it rapdily became clear that Nancy Pelosi was spineless and worthless and VERY unworthy to sit as Speaker of the House, even in a time of peace and prosperity, let alone a time when principled strong opposition was called for.

In my opinion, from what I can see, she has no conception of her real duties to the nation above making sure her grandchildren are farting through silk while our are playing mad Max outside.

Whew! You got me going. So yes, I do understand and I share your trepdations.

There's a time for worrying about that sort of thing, and believe you me, I am NEVER going back to sleep like I did in the 90s.

But the time for worrying about that stuff is not at the Victory Celebration. Just my two cents, and this is an excellent post, no matter when it's posted.

[KoKo]

35. Well said and, like you, I am cautious.

We still have time before inauguration when much damage can be done.

[Jack Rabbit]

29. It looks like somebody ate your lunch, Tom

HoustonDemocrats.com

[NNN0LHI]

33. Hey Tom, exactly what issues do Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama disagree on?

You spent a lot of time writing a lot of stuff to get to your anti-Pelosi punchline which appears to be the purpose of this thread.

Don

[tom_paine]

37. If you think that, Don, you are mistaken. I promised this thread months ago if Obama won.

And I am making good on my promise.

To answer you're question: Ostensibly, Obama and Pelosi disagree on little, issues and position-wise.

But in terms of attitude, toughness and willingness to go to the mat against the Bushies, I think they are worlds apart. This is, of course, speculation as we cannot know until Obama rolls his sleeves up and stats governing on 1/21/2009, and really we won;t know for sure until probably a year after that of the two are indeed worlds apart.

Nancy Pelosi was far from my purpose from posting this thread, and now in some ways I am sorry I threw that "punchline" in at the end, as it was but an afterthought and not seminal to the post.

I won't sugarcoat it, Don. I think the Nancy Pelosi Democrats are the most awful thing to hit our party in a long time. They're weak, appear to have little principles (witness nancy's brief slip of her mask when she said she though those anti-Bush vagrants should be arrested, not protected by Free Speech), are disgracefully cowardly in the face of the Tyrant's Will, and also appear to care almost as little for the people they govern as the Bushies themselves (not I said 'almost').

And if the 111th Congress selects nancy pelosi as Speaker of the House, I will consider the worst possible sign for a dimming future. A sign the Democratic Congressional Leadership (as always, with a few notable exceptions) are going to find their spine and opposition...TO OBAMA.

God Forbid that should happen, but with Nancy Pelosi Democrats, the stink is on the wind and as little surprises me with Nancy Pelosi Democrats as with the Bushies. There is NO outrage I believe the Bushies no capable. There is no disgraceful cowardly self-interested capitulation that the Nancy Pelosi Democrats aren't capable of.

I am hoping and praying that President Obama, by his very presence, renders the Nancy Pelosi Democrat extinct, and DOUBLY so if those jellyfish find their opposition... TO OBAMA.

Contemptible, if that's what happens.

Do I dislike Nancy Pelosi and her bunch of jellyfish? Not for who they personally are but for what they have allowed to happen, half of which WOULDN'T have happened if they had a spine and weren't so afraid of "Sean Hannity calling them a name".

I cannot help it. I despise her as much as I do the Italian Legislators who cowered before Mussolini, the German Legislators who cowered before Hitler, and everyone everywhere who has cowered before the iron fist and will of a Tyrant.

Nancy and her jellyfish are not alone in history in this. Not even close. They have PLENTY of company.

And I despise them all.

Sorry, Don, if my Nancy "punchline" got your goat. Now, unfortunately, you've had to listen to a Nancy Pelosi fullblown rant. I feel strongly about it and only future actions and nothing less than ACTIONS on her part will change my attitude. She can yip-yap and write all the strongly worded letters to Hitler she wants, but she is a contemptible reincarnation of the German Social Democrats, circa 1933.

The Nancy Pelosi Democrats, being near or more than a majority (perhaps an overwhelming majority, but let's not go there) of our Democratic Congressional Contingentm certainly aren't going anywhere soon.

But they cowered disgustingly at Bushler's feet for EIGHT YEARS, two when they were in the MAJORITY. They'd better fucking cower before Obama, too, and not play Spineless-Democratc-Leadership-gets-tough....WITH CLINTON 1993-4, again.

Sorry Don, I stand behind my words in the OP and my words in this post 100%.

[LanternWaste]

34. For what it's worth...

For what it's worth, my grandfather once said (and I paraphrase) that a person who admits being wrong holds so much more credibility in the eyes of the wise than does his antithesis.


:hi:

[wryter2000]

38. Rachel Maddow was wrong, too

I think even next week she was saying McCain would win. So, you're in good company.

[autorank]

40. Hey Tom

Think you're a bank or something? No rewards for getting it wrong;)

Just kidding. I remember responding to the original thread and having a cordial exchange with you.
You said that you hoped you were wrong. Guess what, your wish came true.

Good for you for being so conspicuous about your apology. And it worked out better this way.
You'd rather be wrong than have that other guy become president.

With the right information, the American people will make the right decision every time.
This time they barely had the right information and they called it right. Imagine if we
had a truly free press that actually covered ISSUES. The taxing of medical benefits being
widely known would have ended this campaign early, etc. etc.

Cheers Tom!

Now about that election fraud issue ... :rofl:

[Psyop Samurai]

41. Ok... now don't go soft on us, and don't get hoodwinked...

Listen to Beam Me Up.

I love you both.

:loveya:

[tom_paine]

47. Celebrate today. Worry tomorrow. We did what we had to do as citizens.

We FULLY flipped power in this country, as was needed.

FULLY.

Now, we wait and see. Vigilance.

Love back atcha.

:loveya:

[Schema Thing]

42. I think you were right. We simply have a better, more robust system to prevent a Hitler

But frighteningly, there are serious cracks in our system made visible these past eight years.

[tom_paine]

46. Serious cracks in our system that MUST be shored. And Obama, a Constitutional lawyer and apparent

Jeffersonian, could be just the man to do that.

There can be no doubt our system of checks and balances has been strained to near the breaking point.

We all need to pick a different problem, and start working towards shaping the future by activism and letters to the editor and all kinds of things.

Got my own place already picked out on the Battle Line, so to speak.

Make Election Day a National Holiday (we could even say even-years only).

Got your place picked out?

If we all grab a hold of the log and push, we can get 'er back up the hill.

And if we fix the damned voting, the rest will fix itself. But that's my thing. Yours is whatever helps turn your key, float your boat, and save the Old American Democratic-Republic for your children to enjoy and leave to THEIR children the gift of LIBERTY.

[Canuckistanian]

44. OK, fine. You don't have to make a big production out of it.

Everything's all right now.

Chill. Obama's got this.

[DeepModem Mom]

45. Tom, I didn't think the system the Founders left us could possibly survive...

Bush/Cheney/Rove. I was wrong, too. And a relative who's lived much longer than I have told me in the darkest days that the American people eventually come to their senses. And I didn't believe her.

Thanks for this post.

K&R

[tom_paine]

48. My pleasure, Deep Modem Mom, one of my favorite and most informative DUers

I blat opinion and history. YOU dig up and disseminate the crucial information that is the lifeblood of DU.

On my journal, I don't link to many other DUers. But I link to you.

Each in our own way, we serve the Founders' Intent. We are the White Corpuscles of the Republic.

Preachy. These are heady times. A person could get drunk on oxygen.

Celebrate today. Worry tomorrow. Jan 20th can't come fast enough. It comes the day after MLK Day, this year.

Fitting. Abraham Lincoln (who would be a Democrat today) and MLK are smiling up in heaven.

Those good freunds Prescott Bush and Adolf Hitler are stewing mightily in their dorm room in the 12th circle of hell, where the walls constantly display ever-shifting images of Jon Stewart (making his "secret surprise finger to the lips face") and Barack Obama.

I mean, it's hell, what did you think would be on their dorm room walls, pictures of Abu Ghraib that they would enjoy? No way...it's HELL.

Gettin' drunk on oxygen (ok, ok, and a few shots of Jim Beam).

[WilliamPitt]

49. The most bitter disillusioned people involved in politics

tend to be the biggest optimists.

:toast:

[lelgt60]

51. Of course most Americans are like 1930's Germans...

Just like most Canadians, French, Iraqi's, Russians...

Most people don't think that much about how their country is run, as long as they have food, clothing, shelter, job, educational opportunities for their kids. Most people pretty much accept what their leaders say. Some substantial number can be goaded into persecuting others. It's a combination of low intelligence, perceived self interest, and misinformation. That's the state of human beings in 2008.

Remember the average IQ is 100 (yeah, yeah, not the best measure). That means there are as many below 100 as above 100.

Because of this, I have to say that I'm not really sure I'm in favor of democracy. I'm not really sure I want the stupid, the ignorant, the evil, or the people who just plain don't care, to be part of the decision making process. But I don't know how you fairly exclude those people. Those who say it is the best form of government may be right for the moment, but look at some of the things our democracy (and others) have done. Just because it's the best thing we know of now, doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to find something better.

From the posts on DU, which regularly make derisive comments about the "American people", I think many have similar feelings.

[BrklynLiberal]

52. Isn't it wonderful to be wrong about certain things????

:thumbsup:

[JDwho]

53. Nice to know the idea of America wasn't just an idea, isn't it?

n/t

[tom_paine]

54. Unmeasurably so. Unimaginably so. I always knew it, but the last 8 years had me doubting.

But Obama is right, this is only the CHANCE to make things happen.

Our work begins tomorrow.

Celebrate today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Your crow gets recs? I only got crows....

and I am also happy to be wrong

[Hubert Flottz]

58. The things that you said needed saying at the timeTom...

The fight that you have been fighting needed to be fought!

It's too damned bad that the pre-WWII Germans didn't have the internet to shake them awake in time too.

We have won one battle in an age old war...the war of the "Haves and The Have Mores" VS Have Nots...

Our war against unbridled greed goes on, I can hear the bombastic corporate cannoneers opening up on Obama right now on MSNBC's "Closing Bell" on my TV.

Your keyboard has a hell of a lot more power than some folks here realize...the power to make other people half a world away, folks who you have never laid eyes on, laugh, cry, hate, love, admire, trust or mistrust, respect or disdain. We shook up the world on November 4th...all of us. President Obama knows that too.

[McCamy Taylor]

60. Like I always say "Americans do not goose step." Next time you doubt, just talk to me.

Republicans goose step just fine, but they are not real Americans. Republicans exist to annoy and then alarm real Americans so that they will get out of their easy chairs and go vote for whoever will protect the Bill of Rights.

Rugged individualism is both the curse and the blessing of the American people.

[orleans]

63. right. you were wrong. now...you owe me five bucks.

(or are you gonna say you don't recall our bet?)

:evilgrin: pay up! :evilgrin: