Has a black man or woman even ever been a candidate for the job of leading any European country?

[NNN0LHI]

Would they be wasting their time if they would even try? Is America really the most progressive country in the world when it comes right down to it?

Are Americans a lot smarter than we thought they were?

Whats going on here?

Its like we have had an outbreak of a very contagious disease called common sense in this country.

Don

[Bullet1987]

1. I don't think so...

It's funny how a European country like England is seen as farther ahead in race relations than America...but I don't think they've ever had a minority run for political office.

[anigbrowl]

3. There's quite a few black politicians in the UK

but they have a parliamentary democracy there, the prime minister isn't directly elected. There have been several ministers though.

[Captain Hilts]

10. It's funny, but I don't think of the UK as 'Europe'. nt

[anigbrowl]

17. See post #1.

[LeftishBrit]

29. Technically, we are. We are part of the EU.

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. As far as corporatist economics and politics are concerned, we are an offshore platform of the US,

a Trojan Horse, a little way off the coast of continental Europe.

But I do think there is a whole stratum of monied African Americans, which highlights the relative lack of career opportunities for British people of West Indian and African extraction. That's a strong impression I have. The same problem of low morale and sometimes not too subtle racism among elements of the teaching profession, encouraging low expectations, a factor too, maybe.

[NOLALady]

4. Do you know their

percentage of minorities?

[Blue_Tires]

9. England abolished their slave trade long before the U.S.

and they did just have a black race driver win the F1 title...

[happyslug]

25. Yes, right after the Sugar Beat under priced Sugar from Sugar Cane,

Until Sugar from Sugar Beat came into general use (do to Napoleon's efforts to get around the British control of the Seas and thus the Sugar from Sugar Cane) Control of the West Indies was more important then even the control of North America (During the Revolution, when France entered the War both France AND England concentrated on the West Indies and Control of the Sugar cane plantations NOT what was going on in the 13 Colonies, the American War for Independence became a Side show to the main battle over who will control the West Indies and the Sugar cane Crop).

By 1835, Sugar Beats had become not only competitive with Sugar Cane, but had driven the price of Sugar so low that most plantations were no longer profitable with slave labor. Thus England Abolished Slave Labor but only after it had become unprofitable in the West Indies. There is some evidence that many (Through not most) of the "freed" slaves were shipped to the American South not only at that time but till 1865 (The US Cotton farms needed workers and willing to pay top dollars for black slaves, no questioned asked as to where they came from, this include freed blacks kidnapped from northern states as while as from the West Indies). Cotton was King much more profitable then Sugar cane in the 1840s and 1850s. Illegal to import slaves after 1808 but such imports continued till 1865. In fact England almost went to war with the US in 1862 over the US blockade of the South, for it cut off cotton supplies to the Cotton mills of England (Instead England, Spain and France invaded Mexico to demand payments of debt Mexico owned both, the English and Spanish then pulled out but France stayed till 1866).

Yes, England abolished Slavery in its colonies, after it was no longer profitable but was more then willing to accept the production of Slaves in the form of Cotton, as long as making that cotton into clothing was profitable.

[Journeyman]

13. Benjamin Disraeli, British Prime Minister (1868, 1874-1880) . . .

baptised an Anglican as a teen, his ancestry was Jewish.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

58. Leon Blum - three-time Prime Minister of France was Jewish

Blum led a truly fascinating life. He was the first Socialist Prime Minister of France. He graduated with honors from the prestigious Ecole Normale Superieur and studied both law and literature at the Sorbonne. He became a major literary figure in France before the war. During World War II, he refused to flee France when the Germans invaded. Instead, he bravely criticized the Vichy regime and was put on trial. During the trial, he made such a great defense of his position against the traitors that the Nazis had the trial cancelled because it so inflamed public opinion. The Nazis instead sent him to Buchenwald.

[Journeyman]

63. Thank you for that. . .

I was unaware Blum was Jewish (I'd make a terrible bigot). Quite a remarkable life of accomplishment, especially as he rose to such a level in the shadow of the Dreyfus Affair.

[LeftishBrit]

26. For political office, certainly; though not yet as party leaders

Britain has a number of non-white MPs, though not in proportion to their numbers in the population. I think we have 6 black MPs, and 9 or 10 British Asian MPs. Our first non-white MP was Dadabhai Naoroji, elected in 1892, though that was certainly not typical of the time. We have had, and have now, several non-white Cabinet members. None so far have been Party leaders, however.

As regards minorities more broadly: Benjamin Disraeli, an ethnic Jew, was Prime Minister of Britain several times in the 19th century. More remarkably, France had a Jewish Socialist Prime Minister, Leon Blum, in the 1930s, which was not the safest time to be Jewish in Europe. He faced a lot of antisemitic hostility and even physical violence; but he managed to survive - despite being imprisoned by the Germans during the war.

People from other parts of Europe may know of other examples.

[Romulox]

47. Who sees "England as farther ahead in race relations"? The UK has had race riots in the recent past

[LeftishBrit]

54. As long as we have the racist anti-immigrant tabloids....

we won't have remotely won the anti-racism battle. Though there has been some improvement in the last 20 years.

I hope the immigrant-baiters here shut up a bit when they realize that by implication they're insulting their closest ally's President! Similarly, I hope the religious bigots in America shut up a bit when they realize that they are insulting quite a few of their closest ally's leaders and citizens, including our openly atheist Foreign Secretary. Unfortunately, the 'Special Relationship' is rarely used to such constructive effect, in either country.

[anigbrowl]

2. Not in modern times, no.

[Oregone]

5. "Is America really the most progressive country in the world"

No, no, and no. Try again.

[Coventina]

6. Whoops! I misunderstood the OP, sorry! *self delete* n/t

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

7. I remember a couple of years ago there was a mayor of

an Italian city (I think it was Ravenna) who is (or was) a black gentleman. I'll see if I can scrounge up something for Italia.

[Captain Hilts]

8. In northern Europe they don't have black residents in significant numbers, so, why would they?

[EFerrari]

28. Black residents?

Why would people of African descent be in Europe or America and not in Africa?

[Mass]

11. Racial composition of GB. Most of the minorities are recent immigrants.

So this has little to do with progressivism. On the other side, Europe has had several women as Prime ministers and other running for president.

groups (2001) 92.1% White, 4.0% South Asian, 2.0% Black, 1.2% Mixed Race, 0.80% East Asian and Other

(France numbers may be higher, but most of them are recent immigrants).

We can talk about who is more progressive when the US have a decent healthcare and protection net system.

[LeftishBrit]

31. While many are recent immigrants, over half were born in Britain, but with immigrant parents or

grandparents (which makes them no different in this respect from Obama!). A small but significant minority have lived in Britain for many generations.

[Hope And Change]

12. Yvette Jarvis who is an African-American woman was elected city councilwoman in Athens, Greece.

Yvette Jarvis


She is presently the coordinator for the "Obama for President - Greece" organization for US expats in Greece.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvette_Jarvis

http://www.eawc.org/?q=YJarvis

[Eryemil]

30. Wow, she's pretty

Bland comment I know, but what a beautiful lady.

[Nye Bevan]

14. No, but the USA is more of a progressive meritocracy

as will be proved tomorrow.

Where else could someone with Obama's background ascend to the highest office in the land?

[Oregone]

18. Wrong. The US is tied with the UK for the lowest rate of mobility in the industrial world

Meritocracies depend upon social mobility. Obama is an exception, not the rule

[TomClash]

15. Women but not minorities

Thatcher (UK), Segolene (Fr) (ran and lost).

[Diclotican]

36. TomClash

TomClash

Norway Gro Harlem Bruntland (1981) (1986-89) (1990-1996) And she was a good prime minister from Norway... Even that she wanted us to be part of EU...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[arcos]

38. Several women in Latin America too...

Violeta Barrios in Nicaragua, Mireya Moscoso in Panamá, Michelle Bachelet in Chile, Cristina Fernández in Argentina.

Panamá could even elect the second one next year, if Balbina Herrera wins.

[LeftishBrit]

45. A few more...

Angela Merkel, current Chancellor of Germany

Gro Harlem Bruntlandt, former PM of Norway (and very well-respected)

Maria de Lourdes Pintasilgo, PM of Portugal in the early 80s

Tarja Halonen, current President of Finland, and Anneli Jaatteenaki, former Prime Minister of Finland (not sure which post has the real power there)

Edith Cresson was PM of France sometime during Mitterand's government

Mary Robinson was President of Ireland recently, though I think it's a ceremonial post there.

Vigdis Finboggasdottir was President of Iceland in the 80s (?), but I don't know whether the post has any power.

[Hope And Change]

16. Sweden`s current integration and equality minister is a black woman...

her name is Nyamko Ana Sabuni and was born in Burundi, Africa.




Nyamko Ana Sabuni

[Oregone]

19. Canada's Governor General & Commander-in-Chief is also a black woman (from Haiti)

Michaëlle Jean

[SidDithers]

21. Prior to that the GG was Adrienne Clarkson...

Who is Chinese-Canadian

Sid

[happyslug]

24. The governor-General is an honorary position, it has no real power

Furthermore is appointed by the Queen herself (Upon advice of the Prime Minister of Canada, which in affect means he appoints the Governor General and can ignore her if she does anything he or his Government does NOT want done).

Thus the appointment is someone who has political Connections but is NOT a threat to anyone in real power, something like a US Judge, but without the power, or life time appointment, of a US Judge.

[kskiska]

20. Most European leaders do not come from the general populace

They are schooled in diplomacy and come up from those ranks. That's why you'll rarely see yokels from the provinces in positions of power. Not like the U.S. where theoretically any child can grow up to be president. As we've seen, sometimes there's a downside to that notion.

[LeftishBrit]

33. I don't think this is truer nowadays of most of Europe than the USA

In the UK - where politics of course used to be dominated by the aristocracy - recent Prime Ministers have tended to come from middle-class backgrounds; their parents ranged from being small tradesmen to successful lawyers, but, since the time of Winston Churchill, only the briefly-serving Sir Alec Douglas-Home came from an aristocratic background.

Briefly checking the backgrounds of the leaders of neighbouring countries: Merkel is the daughter of a Lutheran pastor. Sarkozy is of recent immigrant descent (Hungarian on one side; Sephardic Jewish on the other; also some native French). His father was from an upper-class family in Hungary, but had lost everything and had to flee. He became a wealthy businessman in France, but when Sarkozy was very young, his parents divorced and the father refused to give the family any financial support.

I would consider Bush more aristocratic than any of these!

[Romulox]

48. This is doubly true in the US, where Harvard and Yale are the "finishing schools" of the elite.

"Not like the U.S. where theoretically any child can grow up to be president."

You're kidding, right? They've been calling Joe Biden the "poor man" of the Senate... :wtf:

[Thorandmjolnir]

52. That is a load of Sh*t

Please back that up with some real facts.

Plenty of European leaders and politicians come from ordinary backgrounds.

[kskiska]

56. Elite political class of Europe

(snip)

Unlike the elite political class of Europe, whose own electorates are mere springboards to the transnational stage, providing a ticket to the top table where the real decisions are made, America's chief executive is bound by the Constitution (which he actually takes seriously) into a solemn social contract with his own people.

The US, in other words, still retains an 18th-century political culture, with all the optimism about the perfectibility of man and government which that implies: it accepts utterly and fervently - and drums into the heads of every generation of schoolchildren - the principle that political power is granted only by the consent of the governed.

Its people and its leaders see themselves as bonded together in a mutual endeavour to ensure that, as Abraham Lincoln put it, "government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth".

(snip)

Almost every American either is himself, or is descended from, someone who made a conscious choice to emigrate to the US. (Significantly, the group that has generally fared least well in the American system is the one descended from people who were taken there against their will - the African slaves.)

You enter the country on a certain understanding - you knowingly accept the contract. Wherever you came from, whatever your previous history, you can reinvent yourself as an American by signing up to the deal.

Needless to say, Europe could not start from scratch. The peoples who were here with their ancient hatreds and unforgettable past could never say with one voice, "This is where we begin anew", with a mutually agreed settlement between the governing and the governed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/06/11/do1101.xml

[Thorandmjolnir]

64. Like I said,

back it up with facts. This is simply a statement by a newspaper. No facts. Just opinion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. An opinion piece in the highly Eurosceptical Telegraph means nothing

and if you're getting your opinions on Europe (or the UK - they're right wing) from them, you really need to read something else. Almost anything else, in fact.

LeftishBrit has briefly showed in reply #33 that the current major European leaders aren't from 'ranks schooled in diplomacy separate from the general populace'. To be more specific on recent UK leaders:

Gordon Brown grew up in a smallish Scottish town (Kirkcaldy), where his father was a church minister
Tony Blair grew up in the small city of Durham, where his father was a law lecturer
John Major grew up in London, where his father was a small businessman
Margaret Thatcher grew in up the town of Grantham, where her father was a grocer
James Callaghan grew up in the city of Portsmouth, where his father was a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy
Harold Wilson grew up in the large town of Huddersfield, where his father was an industrial chemist
Edward Heath grew up in the small town of Broadstairs, where his father was a carpenter

That takes us back 45 years. It's only before that that the Prime Ministers come from rich families.

[happyslug]

22. Unlike the US, most European countries have little history of importing blacks

Spain and Lisbon did so in the 1400s and 1500s (as Slaves), but France and England did not import many (A few were imported but the Court tend to rule them Freemen so most owners REFUSED to bring them if the owners moved to France or England). On the other hand both England and France started in the late 1800s to permit them to move to England and France to satisfy local demand for labor (i.e. to keep local labor wages down) and then only from their colonies, mostly in the West Indies. I do NOT believe any of the Western European Countries has any where near 10% of their population classified as "Black", (or other non-Western European which includes people of Turkish descent in Germany), thus you have a more uniform population (i.e. most people living in France are French, most people living in Italy are Italians etc, they may view themselves as Parisians or Romans in addition to their nationality, but what we call ethnicity is viewed as basically the same as Nationality). Thus will a Frenchmen vote for someone non-French to be the leader of France? Will a English, Scot, Welsh or Irish (remember the Irish in Northern Ireland) vote for a non-"Briton" as the leader of the United Kingdom? Will German vote for a non-German as the leader of Germany? (and do not give me the story that Hitler was Austrian not German, he was of German nationality, German heritage and spoke German as his native language, thus he was "German" as that term is understood in Germany). The present President of France is of Hungarian Descent but is viewed as being French (His father's family has been in France since 1945, his mother is from an old French Family). Thus I do not see Any European country electing a black person as their leader, it will be a big enough change for them to elect someone who is NOT of their Nationality, even with the Present President of France his Mother is French and he is viewed as French NOT Hungarian (and his Mother's father was of Jewish extraction through Greek Citizenship till 1970 so his election was a bigger step them one may expect from a nationality point of view, his attitude toward labor is bad but that is another story).

Side note: Notice I use the word "Most", when I discussed Nationality and Ethnicity. There is a good bit of overlap between the countries of both nationalities AND Concepts of who is what nationality. You have Germans living in Italy and France, (Which can lead to some confusion, for example Alsace-Lorraine is a German Speaking area in France, along the Rhine River, the French call them French for their are French Citizens, the Germans call them German for their native language is German, Are they French or German? or are they both or neither?). You have Germans living in Russia and has done so since the 1700s, under German law their are still Germans and Under Russian laws their are Citizens of Russia (Through their Russian Identification papers will call them "German"). In Israeli it is even worse, an Israeli is a Jew, both by Ethnicity and Nationality AND by Religion (Arabs can be Israeli Citizens, but are NOT called into Army Service, as those who are Jew are, through the Druse, an offset of Islam are subject to Israeli Military Service). Just a note that the American Definition of "black" is No only not the same as that term is used overseas, but in many countries the concepts of Citizenship, Nationality, and Ethnicity (and to a degree religion) are NOT separate concepts as those concepts are viewed in American. Those Concepts are much more interchangeable then are those concepts in the US.

[AngryAmish]

23. Napolean

He was not black (obviously) but as a Corsican he was more of an outsider than Obama is.

Any any Moor king of Spain...or Sicily...

[Cleita]

27. Although I'm actually starting to feel giddy about a win, I'm

restraining myself and not counting my chickens until Wednesday morning. I am very hopeful though and yes it looks like we have acquired that disease called common sense.

[Eryemil]

32. Have you looked at the racial demogrpahics of Europe?

[ColbertWatcher]

34. Nevermind, misread the OP. n/t

[KitSileya]

35. And heck, here in Norway, not only are black (or Asian) Norwegians

a tiny minority, they've certainly not been in the country for the last 400 years! It's only been the last 50 years, if that, that we've had a sizeable non-white population (Pakistani labour immigrants in the 70s, Vietnamese boat refugees in the 70s, Chilean and Sri Lankan refugees in the 70s and 80s.) African Americans have had the right to vote, on paper, in the US for 144 years - it's been 44 years since the Civil Rights Act - but they've lived in the US for nearly 400 years (if you don't count the African slaves that were abandoned in Florida by the Spanish in 1526.) I have no doubt that there'll be minority Prime Ministers in the UK, France, Norway - minority Presidents in France and Germany - within the next 50 years, perhaps 75 years at the utmost. Compared to that, the US has a (pre-global climate change) glacially slow upward mobility.

And no, the US is definitely not the most progressive country in the world. Sometimes I wonder whatever makes Americans think they are so progressive. Have you had professed atheists in high elected office? Out of the closet gays? Women? Do you think there's any chance anyone who fits two of these categories, not just one of them, will be nominated/elected Speaker - Vice President - President - Chief Justice of SCOTUS within the next 50 years?

At the same time, I realize what a watershed event the election of President Obama would be. On one thread here, I described such an event as the breaking of the water surface for the divers at the Olympics - the election of a Black President will be like breaking the surface tension for others coming after him, making it easier for them.

[entanglement]

40. Europeans are very progressive in matters concerning other Europeans

Since the basis of your identity is a racial-ethnic one, you treat those whom you perceive to be 'kin' very well. So it's no surprise that Norwegians treat fellow Norwegians well (which is commendable in itself, of course). What is not so commendable is the way you treat those you consider "outside" your group - be they black, brown or immigrant.

[KitSileya]

43. That is true.

We are having a reaction to the increased numbers of non-ethnic Norwegian people here in Norway. But you know what? I don't think that's as alarming as it might seem. I think it's a pretty natural reaction, a swing of the pendulum, if you like, which will correct itself within a decade or two. The recent immigration/influx of refugees has been a huge change, and it will cause strong feelings, but the generation who remembers a completely white Norway will die off soon, and that will help.

Another thing I think it's important to remember that most European nations haven't had immigration as the foundation of their country. Only the US has had that, which has been a part of the American psyche since Crevecoeur. For a nation of immigrant, America has certainly had a lot of intolerance towards certain types of immigrants. In Europe, there hasn't been such a sustained exposure to non-European cultures, races, ethnicities. That must play a part in the assessment. We may be the "old world", but we're somewhat new at this.

Of course, progressivism isn't just about race, it's also about gender, sexual orientation, class, and religion. And those are also issues where America cannot claim to be at the forefront.

[roberto]

49. This is true

In fact in France for example they are all the time speaking about freedom, etc etc, but France is one of the countries who kept (and still) an eye in Africa ... spoiling, creating plots, choosing the presidents etc etc etc...They call it Francafrique ... they are one of the greatest swindles countries in the world. Moreover it's incredible, how little the French's, the common ones, know about that ... You never hear about that anywhere. They truly believe, as some US american does, that everywhere in the world, France is loved ... France is hated in most of African countries ..

[arcos]

37. Perú elected a Japanese-Peruvian in 1990... nt

[JCMach1]

42. Of course he proceeded to steal the country blind!

but that's for another time.

[arcos]

53. LOL...

What amazes me is that his daughter could actually win the next elections!

[entanglement]

39. "Liberal" Europe's (minus UK) business, political and intellectual leadership is ethnically cleansed

The Europeans have hundreds of different excuses for it, in about a dozen languages.

[roberto]

41. is it a joke ? It depends rather in the idiosyncrasy of the country.

Is America really the most progressive country in the world when it comes right down to it?


is it a joke ?

In france, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany ... education from baby child to university is free, as in most of European countries ....It is a right. It goes even to an extreme to pay you (about 1500 euros) per month, if you ever integrate ecole polytechnic or other engineering schools alike in France.
Hospital, med are almost free, (it's a right) and the hospital are not the mess as others countries (alike in UK or Ireland (the British ..so tied with the US americans...)...). Retirement etc you do not need to depends on wall street.

In America all this is a mess. Not a progressive country. Old selfish country which will never change, even with Obama... So it does not depend in the colour or the minority represented in the power. It depends rather in the idiosyncrasy of the country. And US America is based in self achievement, not mutual achievement...

[Dark]

44. Margaret Thatcher. Prime Minister of U.K. in the 80s

n/t

[go west young man]

46. Here's some irony for ya. Middle and Far Eastern countries including

Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, and Iraq have far better records of women in power than europe or North America. They were progressive decades before many western countries. The former Soviet Union had many female heads of state. Haiti, Dominican republican and many poor African nations have had female leaders. The U.S. did have one female leader many moons ago but she was a native American head of the Seminole nation. Here's a link to what Iraq once was like before we fucked it up for women who now fear being stoned to death for flirting. http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm

[Captain Hilts]

51. We don't trust women to host a game show on TV or to be spokesman for investmen firms. nt

[PVnRT]

50. A woman ran in France against Sarkozy (sp?)

Margaret Thatcher, the German PM whose name I can't remember...there have been a few women but no blacks that I can recall.

[RedCappedBandit]

55. America? Most progressive? Laugh. nt

[question everything]

57. Cannot recall specifics but am quite certain that some of the Scandinavian

countries have had women prime ministers.

I think that one of them was shot some years back.

[MiniMe]

59. How many times in how many versions is this question going to be asked?

[LSK]

66. some of us dont have 24/7 to read every single post in GD

[jeepnstein]

60. Who cares?

I'm not voting for his color scheme, I'm voting for one of the smartest guys to run for President in a very long time. You don't rise that far and that fast because you're the token black. Seriously, I'm sick of even hearing about his race, like it somehow matters. Flat out Barack Obama is the best man for the job.

[MiniMe]

61. Amen Jeep

This is about the 3rd or 4th iteration of this question, all of them slightly different. Enough