Amnesty: Rape girl, 13, killed for adultery

[kiva]

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) -- A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.

Dozens of men stoned Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow to death Oct. 27 in a stadium packed with 1,000 spectators in the southern port city of Kismayo, Amnesty International and Somali media reported, citing witnesses. The Islamic militia in charge of Kismayo had accused her of adultery after she reported that three men had raped her, the rights group said.

.................................

A quarter of Somali children die before age 5; nearly every public institution has collapsed. Fighting is a daily occurrence, with violent deaths reported nearly every day.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/01/amnesty.rape.somalia.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. *crying*

[camera obscura]

2. That's just tragic

[BlooInBloo]

3. I knew there was a reason I can't fucking stand religion.

EDIT: RIP.

[amdezurik]

11. agreed...

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. Yes.

:thumbsup:

[awoke_in_2003]

32. Agree...

to bad you are about to get flamed. Have you seen Religulous yet?

[BlooInBloo]

82. :) I'm the LAST person who would complain about getting flamed - lol!

And no, I haven't seen it yet. Keep meaning to download it, just haven't gotten around to it.

[Karenina]

64. May PATRIARCHY offend you just as much

as THAT is what this display is about.

[Quantess]

76. Yes, patriarchy as the word of their God.

That gives the f'd up patriarchal values more weight, that it's their religion.

[BlooInBloo]

81. They go hand-in-hand here in this instance, no doubt.

[whathehell]

86. Oh Please...If they didn't have religion, they'd have another reason

Atheists are NOT immune to sexism.

[RedCappedBandit]

122. I can't help but wonder..

how people still have faith in a god when shit like this happens.

Regardless, even if we assume there is a god, how fucking great can it be when it PERMITS shit like this to happen.

Fuck people.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

4. *Shakes head in sorrow and disgust*

[kiva]

5. It's sad and horrifying. n/t

[FedUpWithIt All]

6. ...

At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to continue.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/child-of+-13-stoned-to-death-in-somalia-20081031


...

[kiva]

8. Oh no, that poor girl.

I was appalled by the notion of a thousand people gathering to watch the stoning, but this.... :cry:

[Poll_Blind]

9. Man that's fucked up.

PB

[DS1]

22. They bury them standing up, up to their shoulders

and only the head is exposed. But they cover that with a sheet, so they don't have to look at her, and she can't see them.


People like this need wiping off the face of the earth forever. Fuck 'culture'

[yardwork]

7. There are people who would do this in the United States in the name of Jesus.

Every single one of them is voting for McCain-Palin this year.

[The Straight Story]

12. I think the jews were the ones who used to stone people in the bible

:shrug:

[lelgt60]

17. And your point is??? n/t

[The Straight Story]

53. He mentioned in the name of Jesus

Christians were not knowing for stoning.

[Behind the Aegis]

83. It doesn't matter if Christians were historically known for it.

The person to whom you originally responded opined there were some today who would exact Old Testament punishments (whether it be stoning or just death), and s/he is quite likely correct. Given rhetoric from the ultra-fundamentalist Christians, stoning might be a possibility in a fundamentalist Christian theocracy.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. Thought so...

Every time mention of Islamic atrocities is made on DU, someone pops up to claim - absurdly - that American Christianity is no better.

I have no doubt that there *are* American Christians who support the stoning to death of 13-year-old rape victims. In a nation of 300,000,000 people, you might find a few dozen, maybe even a few hundred, but not many more than that.

Whereas among Somali Muslims, it enjoys mainstream support.

So don't try to compare the two. On average, American Christianity is nowhere near as bad as Islam in many Islamic countries is (if you want examples of some really unpleasant Christians, look at e.g. the LRA in Sudan, who are arguably as bad as their Muslim opposite numbers).

Criticising Islam is deeply unfashionable among liberals, but this is solely because it's fashionable among conservatives and too many people assume "the enemy of my enemy must be my friend", not for any sensible reason.

[Gwendolyn]

23. You are the first person I've heard voice this, but I think it all the time.

It's completely "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" syndrome.

[BrklynLiberal]

29. Stoning is the execution of choice of the Christian Reconstructionists and

Dominionists.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm

The use of the death penalty would be greatly expanded, when the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied. People will be executed for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, homosexual behavior, idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery (some translations say Witchcraft), etc. The Bible requires those found guilty of these "crimes" to be either stoned to death or burned alive. Reconstructionists are divided on the execution method to be used.

[nichomachus]

38. The same people who own many of the voting machines we use. n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

71. yep. The machines are part of their plan to take over the country.

http://www.bartcop.com/111402faun.htm
Did God tell them to steal the votes?
Election Systems & Software operated under the name American Information Systems from its
inception in the early 1980s until around 1998. It was founded by Todd and Bob Urosevich,
originally under the name Data Mark. The Urosevich brothers obtained financing from the
Ahmanson family, who took a 68 percent controlling interest. The investment group related to
the Ahmansons sold their shares in 1987 to the McCarthy Group (35%) and the World-Herald
Company, Inc. (45%) Michael R. McCarthy, Chairman of the McCarthy Group is listed in FEC
documents as Campaign finance principle for Chuck Hagel (R - Senator for Nebraska)

Not only are the party political affiliations of the ES&S and Diebold senior staff and owners
obviously all Republican BUT there is another common link: The Republicans who are supported
by the owners and staff of these companies are not just standard issue conservative Republicans
... they are Christian Reconstructionists.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/12/a_nation_under_god.html
A Nation Under God
George W. Bush has called Reconstruction-influenced theoretician Marvin Olasky “compassionate conservatism’s leading thinker,” and Olasky served as one of the president’s key advisers on the creation of the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. Bush also invited Reconstructionist Jack Hayford, a key figure in the Promise Keepers men’s group, to give the benediction at his first inaugural. Deposed House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, though his office won’t comment on his religious views, governs with what he calls a “biblical worldview”—one of Reconstruction’s signature phrases. And, for conspiracy buffs, two heavy contributors to the Chalcedon Foundation—Reconstruction’s main think tank—are Howard Ahmanson and Nelson Bunker Hunt, both of whose families played key roles in financing electronic voting machine manufacturer Election Systems & Software. Ahmanson is also a major sponsor of ultraconservative politicians, including California state legislator and 2003 gubernatorial candidate Tom McClintock.

[Withywindle]

75. Yeah, but they DON'T ACTUALLY DO IT YET, do they?

As a woman, I realize that the only reason I've had a much better and longer life than this girl is because of where I was born, which is a complete accident of fate that I had no control over.

She could have been me. I could have been her. But I'm not such a good person that I'd trade places with her. Instead, I don't think this should ever happen to anyone, anywhere, and there is no "culture" that can possibly justify it.

[BrklynLiberal]

79. Only because they are not in control yet...

[rockymountaindem]

104. Nor will they ever be

That's the difference.

[prayin4rain]

34. No, that is not why criticizing Islam is "unfashionable"

Many, many followers of Islam are peaceful and evolved human beings. There is nothing more wrong with the muslim religion or it's followers than there is with christianity or it's followers. Unfortunately, Islam is going through it's crusade time ... and I hope it never becomes as violent or lasts as long as Christianity's did.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. Part right, part wrong.

>Many, many followers of Islam are peaceful and evolved human beings.

Absolutely true.

>There is nothing more wrong with the muslim religion or it's followers than there is with christianity or it's followers.

Not true, for two reasons - firstly the teachings of Mohammed do contain more commands to mysogyny and violence than those of Christ, and secondly the approach to interpreting themselves that they encourage makes the kind of selective misinterpretation that enables one to be a good person while still following a bad religion (which both Islam and Christianity are) harder for a Muslim than a Christian (which is not to say that many Muslims don't do it even so).

>Unfortunately, Islam is going through it's crusade time ... and I hope it never >becomes as violent or lasts as long as Christianity's did.

It's already (or rather, still) at least as violent, illiberal and repressive.

I likewise hope it doesn't last as long, but I'm not optimistic - Christianity modernised and stopped being so violent largely because its followers started deliberately misinterpreting its founders teachings. The Koran tpells things out in a lot more detail than the NT does (the OT is much more like the Koran, but the NT contains specific instructions that the nuttier bits no longer apply), and makes it clearer that it's all meant literally and directly divinely inspired, which I think will make that harder.

On the other hand, there is far more external pressure on Islam to liberalise than there was on Christianity, so that may help.

[ismnotwasm]

97. Not exactly

The interesting thing about Islam is that it does tell males to take personal responsibility for females, with many explicit instructions on behavior between and for,the sexes, although it, like Judiasm and Christianity assumes male superiority in all things. (You can have four wives, but you have to be able to care for them)

I dislike religions, especially the patriarchal ones, but I find the words and attitudes of Jesus--in the accepted versions of the bible, to be the least sexist. It was after his death and the early church where misogyny prevailed. And before his life where their are many, many biblical instances of misogyny. The words of Paul aren't exactly empowering for women, for instance. Neither is offering your daughers to be raped.

The problem is entrenched political patriarchy, the assumed lesser value of females.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

51. Also, I didn't say criticising Islam was unfashionable, I said it was unfashionable among liberals.

Criticising Islam *is* fashionable in many circles, but unfortunately most of the people who do so are right-wingers who tend to do so for stupid reasons, and the criticisms they launch are often (by no means always) stupidly exaggerated or caricatured.

[yardwork]

39. Who said anything about Christians?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

49. You did.

Please, spare me the "no true Scotsman" guff.

[yardwork]

70. No, I didn't.

[Alameda]

41. Excuse me? You sound like some "others" who I've heard from

FYI there are many different interpretations of Islam, the people who perpetrated this act have a particularly narrow view.

Did you read this..."Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life,"....from here....http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/child-of+-13-stoned-to-death-in-somalia-20081031

There are Christians, Hindus, Jews and people with no religion who are narrow minded and bigoted as well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

50. All of what you say is true, as far as it goes, but it's also misleading.

>FYI there are many different interpretations of Islam, the people who perpetrated >this act have a particularly narrow view.

Certainly true. However, their interpretation is not exceptionally rare - as witnessed by this. And to interpret Islam in a way that isn't extremely illiberal, you have to deliberately misinterpret or ignore large chunks of the Koran.

>There are Christians, Hindus, Jews and people with no religion who are narrow >minded and bigoted as well.

This is true. However a) "narrow minded and bigotted" isn't the same thing as "stones rape victims to death", and b) while it's perfectly true that nutcases like these can be found in pretty much all religions, it's *not* true that they occur with roughly similar frequencies in different religions - Islam has significantly more per capita than any other major religion.

[Chulanowa]

56. Does it?

Please share the sources of your per capita measurements of fundie crazy fucks in one religion vs. the other.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

66. I maintain that it probably would happen with relative frequency

if we (meaning us and the religious living amongst us) lived in the asscrack of the world.

[Alameda]

69. Actually it is relatively rare....when you consider the percentage

of the world population who are Muslims. It is the second largest religion in the world, second only to Christianity. I would guess actually that many of those who are counted as Christians are not really actually Christians. Perhaps at sometime in their life they were baptized, thus are counted in statistics as Christians.

[QC]

43. Yes, it never takes more than five minutes or so

for the false equivalency argument to appear.

It's a DU tradition.

[Chulanowa]

54. The difference is lawlessness

The Somalis do it because they can get away with it. The American Christians - and yes, plenty of Jews and Muslims, I'm sure - don't do it because they can't get away with it.

Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Tunisia, Albania, Quatar, India, Uzbekstan... all these Muslim or high Muslim population nations don't have to put up with this shit. Others like Egypt, Yemen, and Indonesia have it happen, but quickly prosecute the fuckers responsible.

Somalia has no law. Whoever has the most ammo is the "sherrif." You're not looking at a part of Islam here. You're looking at the inevitable consequences of sany society where the strong rule the weak through violence.

[madeline_con]

105. If the government collapsed, and everyone did as they pleased,

which seems to be the case in Mogadishu and its environs, it could definitely happen here.

[RedCappedBandit]

121. The religions are the same

it's the cultures that differ.

[spoony]

77. Why the ever loving fuck does every thread about a criminal act

by a member of any other religion on earth ALWAYS and INVARIABLY wind up with stupid fucking posts like this? Is there some kind of law that requires these threads to have sniveling equivocation attempts?

[LanternWaste]

115. I think because it's easier to blame...

DU Handbook, Chapter V, Section 3, Subsection 3-c, Paragraph 4. "...and if you can identify the problem, but not the actual culprit, blame any one of the three major world religions or the Republicans" (My lame attempt at being light-hearted aside...)


I think because it's easier (no, not easier... let's try more 'viscerally satisfying' as it tends to reinforce a person's preconceived notions) to blame something as concrete in both structure and perception (religion) thatn it does to look at the diaphanous and ephemeral (relatively speaking) actual root problems of poverty.

[Luna_C_06]

10. My youngest sister is just 13.

How could anyone do this to a child? Where are her parents, her family? What about the "men" who raped her? WTF is wrong with some people?

[undeterred]

13. Don't blame religion, blame men.

Women do not do the raping or the stoning. Women are the victims of both.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. I don't think the two are contradictory.

Would this have happened if the country hadn't been primarily Islamic? No, probably not.

Would this have happened in an all-female society? No, probably not (although other bad things would).

Both "Islam" (more specifically than "religion") and "Men" can be arguably blamed.

However, we have far more hope of a world without fundamentalist Islamic states than a world without men, so that's probably a more productive direction to look in.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. No, I will blame the religion, too...

any religion that classifies women as property is capable of this. I don't care what anyone claims about Islam, but women are not even second class citizens. If their acts don't prove this, then just read their damn book.

on edit to add: the religion fosters the belief of male superiority- it creates the atmosphere.

[Chulanowa]

58. Guilt by penis?

I find it hard to beleive there were no women in the crowd cheering with the men and chucking rocks of their own. Ovaries do not prevent someone from being a vile barbarian.

[undeterred]

67. There were no women in the crowd until you put them there.

[Chulanowa]

73. 1,000 Spectators

In a country where women cut out little girls' clitorises and stitch them back up so they just have a bump where their vulva used to be? Not a one of them was a woman, even though the gender of the spectators is not mentioned?

So if they're all guys, how about those ones that got shot at trying to rescue her? I guess they're evil incarnate, too? And of course, only women went to the government (such as it is) for aid, since all the men were busy being evil?

[undeterred]

92. Three men raped her and dozens of men stoned her.

And you want to change the subject.

[Chulanowa]

94. I only changed the subject after you did

"Blame men!" remember? Not just the rapists or the stoners, but men, in a general term. In other words, you are saying that I am as much at fault as the rapists and the assholes who killed this girl, simply because of my Y chromosome. All men are, by your apparent position. While in the same post you pretty much excuse all women from such barbarism.

Basically you said something offensive and stupid and I'm calling you out on it. Now, hey, perhaps it's not what you intended to say. Perhaps you meant to say "Blame these men" meaning the ones actually committing the savagery. If that's what you meant, cool, I can agree. But what you typed was a blanket indictment of all men.

[BrklynLiberal]

80. It is true that most of the fundamentalist religions, of all types, are patriarchal

in nature, and it is the women who are put into a subservient role, with few, if any rights. There is little they are allowed to do without the persmission, first of their fathers, and then of their husbands.
Women in these situations are not divorced when they do not provide a daughter, but they are when they do not provide a son.

There is no denying that fundamentalism is foremost a male dominated form of religion, in every form it takes.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiva]

15. Kick, hoping everyone will read.

[dkofos]

16. Barbaric assholes!!

[fortyfeetunder]

18. Does the MSM seem to care???

or does such barbarism have to happen in the good ol' USA to be taken seriously?

[Duppers]

19. See what bloody religion can do when 'misused'?

nt

[LiberalFighter]

20. I wonder if any of the Islamic militia was involved in the rape.

And brought about the stoning to hide the fact.

[vanderBeth]

26. D:

:cry:

[LeftishBrit]

27. RIP. Poor girl.

What a horrible mess that country is in.

[tkmorris]

28. So.... no one is sceptical of this story? No one at all?

Not that it COULDN'T be true, but is it? Some flags for me are that it comes from the AP, who is notorious for propaganda pieces like this, and the "with ties to Al Qaeda" bit thrown in towards the end. In addition the entire story is attributed to unnamed "witnesses", who could be anyone at all with who knows what agenda.

There are untold horrors of epic proportions that occur daily in places in the world like Somalia, but I think it behooves anyone who cares about facts to be careful when certain parties report events without properly documenting them and calling it a news story.

[struggle4progress]

31. Somali Woman Stoned to Death in South Over Adultery (Update3) (Bloomberg 28 Oct)

By Hamsa Omar

Oct. 28 (Bloomberg) -- A 23-year-old Somali woman was stoned to death in Kismayo after being convicted of adultery in a Shariah court established by Islamists who control the southern port city, an eyewitness said.

Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was buried in the ground up to her neck and her head covered with a black sack before she was executed yesterday, Yusuf Abdi Mohamed, a resident who attended the public event, said in a phone interview today from Kismayo, 500 kilometers (310 miles) southwest of the capital, Mogadishu ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601116&sid=abC9J8.cM6mU&refer=africa

[LeftishBrit]

35. It was reported first by Amnesty International

Here's their press release:

www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/child-of+-13-stoned-to-death-in-somalia-20081031

[QC]

44. I have seen people here claim that Amnesty is a right wing front group.

Seriously.

[Dorian Gray]

91. Really?

That's insane!

[horseshoecrab]

30. Awful Awful Awful

Bastards!

:cry:

horseshoecrab

[alphafemale]

36. Safe passage, Aisha.

:cry:

May what you find beyond this life be better than what you found in this one.

:hug: You precious little one.

You didn't deserve the life you were born into.

[ColbertWatcher]

40. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much their top 1% pays in taxes?

This is despicable, but probably "normal" in countries where "every public institution has collapsed."

I'm not saying it should happen, or that I agree with it, only that it doesn't surprise me.

This is where I fear we'll be if we have a Palin presidency: our public institutions will be dismantled making it easy for the GOP to impose their theocracy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Somalia basically has no functioning government

The tribal leaders do what they will.

[ColbertWatcher]

48. This is where the GOP want to take this country. I fear for our daughters. n/t

[Chulanowa]

59. Absolutely it is

I like to use Somalia as an example when speaking to the free market assholes. it's a shining example of a tax-free deregulated economy where every person is a "rugged individualist"

It's the direction the right wants o take us. Destry the support and infrastructure so that America becomes a pyramid scheme based on serfdom. Theocracy would just be a bonus, but probably inevitable.

[ColbertWatcher]

62. With all the news and information out there about Third World countries ...

... I am shocked that GOPers cannot see the connection between a weak government and a broken-down society.

Is it willful ignorance, or do they really want America to become a Third World theocracy?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. They imagine themselves as the overlords behind the walls

If you look at websites for potential expatriates, you find that not all of them are disillusioned leftists. There are quite a few right-wing Libertarians who hate taxes and have enough money that they can buy themselves a cheap but luxurious lifestyle (complete with seaside mansion and servants) in countries where life is hell for the average persoon.

[BoneDaddy]

42. Irrational religious insanity

When will we have the courage to attack fundamentalism and expose it for the demonic belief system that it is.

[lightningandsnow]

46. That's terrible.

I really hate people sometimes.

[lovuian]

47. Somali is a very very dark place and after this act

it remains in the dark

poor child

[chknltl]

52. Attn Neocons: YOU ROTTEN SONOFABITCHES!!!

I'm laying this at YOUR feet. A strong healthy vibrant America was once a world leader in championing human rights! At one point America could have led the charge with our collective outrage and brought about the social changes needed to prevent this sort of nightmare-this shame to humanity! Now human rights-wise, our world is in worse chaos and America does not have a leg to stand on because our own government stands accused of human rights abuses and even war-crimes. I can not even begin to describe the utter hate I have for those of you who have brought my country down to this point! You bastards did this just so you could ensure the profits of the ultra wealthy. I am against the death penalty and the very reason I am against the death penalty prohibits me from wishing it on you but somehow, someway I will do everything in my power to see you all held to account for what you have done! :grr:

[DS1]

57. biggest stretch I'll read all week

thanks for getting that over

[Chulanowa]

60. Oh, the American right has its place in this

If nothing else, the GOP is guilty of adding to the chaos in 1992

[pettypace]

74. no kidding

Her's and Yardwork's post above are reasons to believe even DU has "Left Wing loons" the Right likes to talk about.

Seriously though, a 13 year old African rape victim is STONED to death and that has implications on American Christians and politicians...I mean WTF!?!?

[chknltl]

84. The status quo on this planet is acceptable to YOU?????

I doubt it! I doubt very much you accept this incident, I doubt very much you accept incidents like this. I doubt very much that you will accept incidents like these in the future either. Open your closed mind for a second and ask yourself this question: How can this sort of outrageous behavior be ended???? Can you end it? Can I? Can ANY individual end it? NO! It will take many many many individuals to end it. It will end when the majority of the citizens of this planet find this sort of behavior utterly unacceptable AND IN A POSITION TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. It will end as a worldwide paradigm shift that no longer accepts fundamentalism.

How often do you read about cannibalism on this planet? It was surely a whole lot more prevalent here than it is now-this planet no longer accepts such behavior. That does not mean that cannibalism is utterly gone but truly we are not reading articles about it because those who would perform such a heinous thing are forced underground-they KNOW that such behavior is condemned. At some point the citizens of our world found themselves in a position to do something about it. The very world paradigm that our world once allowed for changed, we matured. The fundies who once practiced it are all but gone! To me this represents forward progress for humanity.

Those who stoned that girl and those who watched could give a rats ass about what you or I think or what the rest of the world thinks for that matter. Where once America could have led the charge in outrage because of such crimes we are reduced to sitting back and saying what a shame! In truth we are no longer the role model we once pretended to be! The world KNOWS that America is weak, economically, militarily and MORRALLY! THAT is why such incidents are occurring with this sort of impunity! Another-words our world's very paradigm is shifting! I'll lay blame at the feet of those who are shifting that paradigm in their grab for resources and power.

I believe that humanity COULD have taken a different path, I believe that America COULD have led down that path. We were surely in that position when we got hijacked by the Neocons! I believe that the damned Neocons took our country and yes even our world off of that path. Their cancer has had an affect on this entire world and where we were once heading. Their cancer may yet take us back to the dark ages, a period of time where even cannibalism was far more common on this world. Should that happen, how could you not blame them for the atrocities that may occur worldwide?

If witch trials like those that occurred at Salem sprung up again among some of America's more secluded fundamentalist groups, it is true that the fundies committing the crime would be guilty but it is equally true that those who took our society down the path where such a thing was again possible or worse, common place, would be even more to blame, would be even more guilty! The fundies would be the symptom, NOT the cancer! Those that took us there would be the ones that deserved the bigger blame!

What about the tainted food products coming out of China? Why wasn't that happening as often even a decade ago? Was it because the world did NOT have to rely on the Chinese so heavily as they do today? Who could they have relied on a decade ago? Who would have STOPPED such imports into our nation AND THEN did whatever they could to see to it that such behavior was curtailed-that no nation needed to worry about tainted food being imported? What do we do about it today? IT ESCALATES and our pets paid the price last year and this year citizens of this planet pay the price. Whose feet to lay this on? Of course the Chinese but what about those who placed us in this woeful position? What about those who stand by or cover up this atrocity? Are you so sure that the children in YOUR neighborhood did not bring home tainted candy this past Halloween night???? If it was YOUR child or your pet last year who got sick due to those products would you ONLY blame the Chinese???? In this case it is the damned system, a system put in place by the real crooks, crooks who IMO are much more to blame than the Chinese who manufactured the tainted product which now permeates food supplies worldwide!

Even in America today, families are being forced from their homes due to the economic situation the Neocons have forced us into. So when the homeless family is forced to give their beloved pet to the animal shelters because they no longer have the money to feed their own families much less their pets who is to blame? Is it the family who did such a thing-a thing that would be considered damn near nightmarish to most pet owners across America? It is happening DAILY in our country, our animal shelters are filling up with pets who were once treasured family members, most of which will be put down!!!! Would you shake your fist at the family who did such a thing or at the bastards who put us in such a position? Again IT IS THE SYSTEM PUT IN PLACE DELIBERATELY by those who could care less about the suffering of others. Life is MEANINGLESS to them!

Yes I am quite aware that this comparison is as you would say a stretch but it IS where we are today! Now lets take this just one small step further, lets take it to where food shortages are so damned rampant here in America that it becomes equally common that Americans are eating whatever they can get their hands on INCLUDING pets! Those who still have homes and pets will no longer be able to leave them in their yards for fear that a starving homeless person will snatch it away! It is not such a large step from where we are currently. Once there, would you be blaming ONLY the homeless starving person and leave it at that?

Where do you suppose the rest of the world will be if America is laid so low? Do you suppose cannibalism will be as infrequent in such a bleak future as it is right now or do you suppose it will be more prevalent? Would you then still be blind to the fact that such an enormous paradigm shift was brought about DELIBERATELY and could have been prevented? I would hope not, I would hope at that point you would have long ago figured out who to hate and your hate would be equal to mine and your hate would be directed as mine is at the very people would have taken our world down such a path!

The very atrocity that befell that poor girl will be far FAR more common worldwide as fundamentalism is allowed to run rampant in a future such as I just laid out. WHOSE DAMNED FAULT WOULD IT BE THEN??? Those of us who know that the behavior committed to that girl was heinous need to do more than just condemn that act, but first we need to be in a position TO do something about it. The status-quo blocks us, the system is allowing such acts to go on and they will be repeated again and again until the system is replaced!! THAT IS A FACT, not lunacy!

Fundamentalism is on the rise not on the decrease. Have you not heard how the TALIBAN are now grown strong enough that they are openly making deals with the Afghan government? The acts against women that the Taliban do are indeed horrible but didn't we once all but drive them out of Afghanistan? WHO IS AT FAULT THEN FOR THEIR RESURGANCE? Is it perhaps Osama Bin Laden or some other fundie leader? Or is it because those who could have done something about it, perhaps put our military to better use, perhaps charted a course which employed a better system of aiding the Afghan citizenry was blocked? I'd say this played a major part! Was it because the very system our military was forced to use has created significantly increased animosity throughout the Middle East directed at America? I'd say the latter was an important factor one easily overlooked by those who can only see 'terra-ists'! So when those Taliban fundies perform something as heinous as stoning that young girl will it be right to ONLY blame the Taliban???? You can bet your bottom dollar that the freepers will! I would say the blame should be placed further up the food-chain!

The Opium poppies are again in full scale production over in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It is easy to blame the person who sold the Opium on the streets of New York for the crime of creating his addicted victims but what about those who put the system in place that made it so easy for the opium growers? What about the system that made it the only way for those Afghan farmers to make it economically? WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO CREATED THAT SYSTEM???? I am quite sure that those poppy growers don't care about any Americans who get addicted. Many are likely quite happy to help in bringing whatever harm they can to America. It's the paradigm and those who created the paradigm who deserve the bigger blame!

I do NOT believe that our world's status quo needed to have happened. I believe that the human race is meant for better things and we were heading down a road to those better things. I blame this girls death and future deaths like this on those who created the status quo. It is at the feet of those who caused the millions of refugees throughout the Middle East, it is at the feet of those who have brought our nation so low that tainted food is becoming commonplace throughout our world. It is at the feet of those who kept our nation from having a better hand in Darfur! It is at the feet of those who allowed the usage of the WMD Depleted Uranium to be used throughout the Middle East. It is at the feet of those who rob the world of it's resources. It is at the feet of those who foster this worldwide paradigm shift that fuels this growth in fundamentalism! It is at the feet of those who believe that the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many and at the feet of those who can not understand that all men and women are created EQUAL.

Do not for a second think that the divide and conquer tactic was used accidentally here in America! Those who used such a tactic kept Americans distracted and at each others throats deliberately! Half our nation damn near hated the other half for almost 8 years! We may yet find ourselves in some sort of civil war if McCain is allowed to steal the Presidency openly! If we do find our nation in some sort of revolution shortly will you be blaming those who supported McCain or will you be able to see the bigger picture and blame those who rose to power by dividing you from your fellow countrymen? Have you ever considered that those who DELIBERATELY did this to us might also be DELIBERATELY trying to pit Muslim nations against Christian nations?

It's your choice to call me a loon, I counter that perhaps you are unable to see the bigger picture. What happened to that poor girl was a SYMPTOM of a sick planet, treating the symptom is a tiny step in the right direction, a treatment that America will not likely be having much of an affect with if we do anything at all! Treating the cancer behind the sickness is where humanity MUST go if we are to prevent this sort of thing from being commonplace! I utterly DESPISE that cancer and those who open the door to that cancer's spread are IMO the most heinous creatures on this planet! Those who physically perpetrated the crime and those who witnessed it IMO deserve a whole lot LESS of our hate than those who deliberately foster the paradigm that allows such an act to happen! Things COULD have been different!

We anticipate a BETTER WORLD ahead with Obama. That anticipation has happened again and again for as long as I can remember. That better world COULD have already happened had we not been derailed! What if Jimmy Carter had gotten a second term? What if the progressives had taken over the powerhouse for change that America could be? Don't you think that fundamentalism could have been slowed perhaps even have been driven underground to a point where cannibalism is today? Don't you think that Global Warming would have been treated far differently had Gore become President? I don't know about you but I can easily blame bush and the neocons for our current stage of crises with global warming. NO they did NOT individually somehow fart out all those greenhouse gasses but my hate for them for that crises is quite valid-I doubt you would want to challenge me hating THEM for that.

It is easy for us in the DU to say that the members of the Free Republic are closed minded, unable to see the bigger picture-can you see that particular mini-paradigm? Don't you feel in your heart of hearts that these folks are low information operators? That they are unable to see the truth no matter how much it gets presented to them? Please consider that this is not a freeper trait-it is a human trait and before calling me a loon perhaps YOU, like the freepers are unable to see the bigger picture yourself. I doubt any of us can, not even the perpetrators of this terrible staus quo the human race is in.

If your sole emotion at me RIGHT NOW is anger, and you want to flame me point by point then you DO fall into that category of being too closed minded and we have nothing further to say to each other. I hope that this is not the case. Even though YOU may find me to have large pieces of the puzzle stuck in the wrong spots, I hope that you can see that I am trying to discern the entire puzzle instead of focusing on any single piece. I am not a systems analysist by any stretch of the imagination but I find it important to see the tree AND it's place in the forest and what part it plays in that forest.

Oh and I don't mind being called a loon or even a girl. You would be utterly wrong on one if not BOTH counts.

[Gwendolyn]

85. Stoning as punishment is an ancient practice. Had we not meddled in the

Middle East it would still be occurring as often/little as it is today. It's the punishment meted out in some countries to keep a tribal society intact. You are correct in that we aided in subsidizing the Taleban into power many years ago, but Afghanistan isn't the only country that uses this method of deterrence.

[chknltl]

87. I was unaware of it's history-figured it to be fundie related

In a sense it IS fundie related. My overall point that I'd like to make is that not only is it a barbaric practice for a number of reasons BUT this and many other barbaric practices will at some point be matters of history as humanity progresses. Humanity is less and less influenced by the needs of the tribal societies. TRUE we may desire to keep some such societies intact for reasons beyond my understanding but some of their practices need not stay with us. Headhunting in Papua, New Guinea comes to mind. I am quite sure it had it's societal uses at some point too but those needs are loooong gone. Any organized head-hunting today would be deemed exactly what it should be deemed: murder!

I was aware that we had earlier subsidized the Taliban, we did this back in the era when Russia held sway in Afghanistan. Then after 9-11 we all but eliminated the Taliban from Afghanistan with our own military. We helped set up the Korzi(sp?) led 'democracy' but the Taliban have grown strong again in Afghanistan recently. I blame the Neocons for this resurgence. They should have either left Afghanistan alone to begin with OR went all out in forcing the Taliban away from their practices of human rights violations. This I suspect could have been done through economic means. In the meanwhile we should have focused our military on Osama Bin Laden

Because neither of these things happened (not to mention the fact that we poisoned the place with our depleted uranium poison), I suspect that we are less than welcome over there these days. Should the Taliban grow strong and do something nasty against America who would be to blame? The Taliban AND the Neocon's who screwed up with that country! Furthermore I would hold those same Neocon's to blame should the Taliban start up with the human rights violations within Afghanistan all over again.

[Chulanowa]

95. It would likely be less common

Without our constant sabotaging of Middle Eastern and African governments and economies, rule of law would be stronger in these places, and such insanity would be greatly reduced, or at least heavily punished - just as it is in every country that has a strong government.

But the United States strives to maintain weak, fractured governments and go-nowhere economies that hemorrhage money into our banks and don't confront our mangling of their neighbors, too.

[Gwendolyn]

96. I respectfully disagree.

Saudi Arabia for instance, is not a fractured, weak society, and these kind of laws still exist on the books. We've meddled in South America and the results are not remotely similar as the culture is different. Some societies are simply much more sexually repressive than others and exact harsh punishments for transgressions. It's been going on since long before the US was born, and will continue tomorrow, regardless of our existence. There seem to be very practical reasons for the strict adherence to these laws as well as their punishments. So whatever.

I personally don't give a crap what people want to do in their respective countries, and we certainly have enough to shock us at home...I'm just always surprised that people run to blame Christianity or US policies when they aren't relevant in the least.

[Chulanowa]

100. Saudi Arabia and Iran are run by nutjobs

Saudi Arabia is ruled by a Theo-Monarchy who we give an extreme amount of financial and military support to, even though there's no support from the Saudi people.
Iran was a social democracy until we deposed the Prime Minister, installed a monarchic dictator, and ultimately resulted in the Islamic revolution

They may have not stoned little girls to death in, say, Chile or El Salvador. But htye sure as hell mutilated, beheaded and incinerated them and their families. Different flavor, still atrocity, still the result of a weakened or fractured society.

[Gwendolyn]

103. Well okay then, we'll just keep making excuses for every fundamentalist ruled

country.

Plenty of people would argue that Iran, Saudi Arabia, or United Arab Emirates for that matter, aren't ruled by particularly out there nutjobs and that for the most part, the average citizen is as happy as anyone else. We did meddle in Iran's affairs, but their revolution was the result of the peoples' wishes, and they installed the fundamentalist government they wanted. If, as you seem to imply, the vast people of these countries are victims of and oppressed by only a few cruel thugs, well then, what an incredibly docile people they are to keep getting f*cked so badly all over the world. Most people wouldn't buy it.

South Americans did suffer under the atrocities of US sanctioned thugs, but when the dust settled, these countries didn't install fundamentalist Catholic governments with sexual transgressions suddenly elevated to capital crime status. No one's executing a new mother for committing adultery or having pre-marital sex. That's my point. That kind of punishment is inherent only in fundamentalist Islamic cultures, where family honor and bloodlines are of such exceptional importance.

We have our own problems. There are plenty of people on death row here, some of them innocent, and a disproportionate number of them being minorities. We also have plenty of pedophiles who commit atrocious crimes against children. Anyone with a brain will agree and say that both suck, and that our country is far from perfect. If other countries are executing rape victims or flogging gay children it's really "okay" to say it sucks as well, without attempting to pass the blame all over the map. Most people just don't buy it.

[Chulanowa]

109. I don't recall making excuses, so you can kiss my ass

What I'm saying is that where rule of law is weak or broken, this shit happens. It's inevitable. it doesn't matter where it is, what the religion is, or what genitals are involved, no matter what this thread full of bigots, dumbfucks, and freaks thinks. If you weaken law or take it away entirely, this is what always happens.

And our country has a vested and demonstrated economic and political interest in weakening the rule of law in other nations. Why doesn't this happen in Latin America? Because despite our efforts, they managed to regain rule of law rather quickly. But what the fuck do you think might go on in a Honduran women's prison? But that's okay, they're not Muslims so no problem from you, right?

[Gwendolyn]

110. I told you I respectfully disagree with you.

I'm of the opinion that Iran and Saudi Arabia are stable, lawfully run countries. I'll bet most of the citizens enjoy happy, fulfilling lives. They just happen to frown really big on sexual transgressions. So no, I don't buy your "it only happens when lawlessness prevails."

I care about Honduran women as much as I do Muslim women, which to be honest, is a thought of empathy but not much more in either case. Nothing I can do, or am willing to do to change the plight of these people. If you start a thread about Honduran women, and go off on how their situation is the fault of Christians, I'd probably laugh too.

Thanks for the ass kissing offer but I'll pass.

[Fumesucker]

102. We don't stone people to death for being raped..

We just lock them up for long periods of time and ruin their lives for possessing a common weed that grows wherever it isn't actively eradicated.

Far more civilized, we are.

[Gwendolyn]

107. You'd get nailed for drugs there too. Death penalty in some cases.

:)

[Fumesucker]

112. I know..

That makes us so much more civilized, right?

[Gwendolyn]

114. Listen, I'm sure if a day's worth of our news was televised over there, we'd be...

thought of as depraved pigs. It's easy to be self-righteous. I'd personally rather not receive the death penalty for a drug conviction, but long sentences are equally as bad.

There's likely little difference between life here and that in Iran and Somalia. A lot of people on this thread basically seem to agree, and would probably hit the ground running if they suddenly got transported to either country...blend right in seamlessly, and embrace the lifestyle. You too I guess, from your comments.

I don't think I could hack it though. I like feeling the sun on my bare legs, enjoy mixed company, and would find the sexual behavior laws really stifling. I don't think my gay friends would consider relocating soon either. But it's just personal taste I suppose. Not really having anything to do with levels of civilization.

[Fumesucker]

123. I suspect you would feel differently

If you were like me and had a loved one doing long hard time for a non-violent "drug crime".

Our prisons are cesspools filled to overflowing with people who have never committed a real crime and you want to get nasty with me because I don't like that and want it to change.

So enjoy having your legs in the sun, meanwhile consider that a family member of mine will not see the sun for at least a couple of decades and maybe never.

[Gwendolyn]

124. If you read any of my replies, you'd know that's not how I feel at all.

In fact, I even mentioned our prison system earlier on. I do know someone who is locked away for a long time, for fraud and it's deserved, but it still hurts tremendously, so I can understand somewhat your despair.

But this is a thread about some young girl who was executed somewhere at the other end of the world for the crime of being raped. My only point was that it's okay to find that reprehensible, even though a day in our own lives is filled with headlines of our own sick crimes. That it's okay to feel a moment of empathy without trivializing it by making politicized statements about neocons and fascist Christian fundies and our prison system. I don't know if you've already started a thread about the putrid state of our prisons and the inequity of punishment, but it deserves its own space, and doesn't really relate to what happened to this girl.

[Fumesucker]

125. I guess you forgot where you told me I would "fit right in"

In an extremist Islamic society?

Actually I wouldn't, I'm a fairly outspoken atheist, I'd probably end up executed too.

This is not the only thread on the poor girl who was stoned.. I was actually the first poster on the first thread on this topic.. My only comment? Just damn..

Reforming the prison system or the drug war is waaaaaaaaaaay down the list on the Dem agenda, there really isn't any point in starting threads on it because it isn't going to happen. In case you didn't know, Joe Biden is the most vociferous drug warrior on the Dem side in Congress and is also the inventor of the term "Drug Czar".

[Gwendolyn]

126. Well I don't know if I can find it again...

... and I hope it wasn't just words, but Barack did bring it up early on in the campaign, and pledged to change inequitable prison sentences related to this issue. I know the neocons are dead set against it, so perhaps it wasn't a good platform to run on, which is why his plan idea died an early death. But that doesn't mean nothing will be done. And it's only by hammering away constantly, that change will be met so bringing it up constantly, even on a message board, isn't a bad thing. I do believe it will be something that's addressed over the coming years. It probably won't help your loved one, and for that I'm sorry.

I'm just a stranger on a message board, and was relating to people trivializing one crime to pull another political issue up the ladder. Inequities are bad in general, and it's good to lay them all bare on the table. Otherwise we do end up prioritizing one over the other. I didn't say you fit right in to an extremist society exactly, was more or less trying to voice what I just said.

[Fumesucker]

128. Actually you did say I would fit right into an extremist society..

There's likely little difference between life here and that in Iran and Somalia. A lot of people on this thread basically seem to agree, and would probably hit the ground running if they suddenly got transported to either country...blend right in seamlessly, and embrace the lifestyle. You too I guess, from your comments.

That was kind of hurtful and I think you wrote it in order to try and hurt me and those others of us who pointed out that America is far from perfect.

But I don't hold it against you, we all have our blind spots and our knee jerk prejudices.

Honestly, I don't think Obama plans to do a damn thing about prisons or the drug war, he managed to get through an entire near hour long speech on race in America without once mentioning that one in three black males (just like Barack) will lose their right to vote here in "the land of the free". Clearly, it's not a problem he's concerned with at all.

[cali]

88. oh for the love of reason. What gross stupidity.

Do fucking educate yourself. To say there's a tenuous connection between this tragic event and the neocons, is a stretch. The accountable parties are those that raped this poor child, and even more so, those that condemned her to such a hideous death and carried it out. And long before neocons existed, the traditions that led to this girl's death, were in place.

Your post is disgusting and idiotic.

[chknltl]

99. Do you subscribe to the notion that this practice is unchangeable?

If you feel that humanity is unable to move forward, to change, then you are absolutely correct.

OTOH I happen to feel that we CAN change that we DO change. Don't you HOPE for a better world under OBAMA? If so that presupposes that you believe our planet CAN be changed for the better! It presupposes that America CAN be an engine for change in our world-NOT just here! Don't you fear that things can get worse under McCain? Again the presupposition of change!

IF YOU can allow in YOUR worldview that this barbaric practice done to that girl will at some point in our future be changed-(I DO) then you can also accept that it could have changed in our past. (I DO AGAIN)

I FIRMLY believe that had the neocons not come into power, at the very least, our country would have been in a FAR better position to have led for the change that could have prevented this. That is looking to the past. I FIRMLY believe that those same neocons can take us to a future where things like this (and worse) occur worldwide more frequently.

see post 84

[DS1]

101. Will you STOP with the capitalized WORDS for EMPHASIS?

That's so fucking ANNOYING!

[chknltl]

106. OK I suppose I could ask you to watch your language....

but that might be rude of me.

[GOPBasher]

55. If the Christian Taliban in this country had their way, we'd be pretty close to that. n/t

[cali]

90. yeah, and if if and and ands were pots and pans, etc

Realistically, despite the insistence of some ignorant DUers, the likelihood of this happening in this country, is slim indeed, barring a cataclysmic event.

The FACT is that this country is not remotely close to this and the other germane FACT is that this happened.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

93. There is no American Christian movement anything remotely like the Taliban.

And certainly the number of American Christians who would support anything remotely remaining this is negligable.

Most Western Christians are nowhere near - not even in the same ballpark - as mysogynistic as most not-Western Muslims, and the case in the OP is fairly extreme even by the standards of non-Western Muslims.

[upi402]

61. Imagine no religion... n/t

[bemildred]

63. Indeed. Imagine people owning their own persons. nt

[spoony]

78. Imagine personal responsibility instead of scapegoating religion

And imagine DU without broad-brush stupidity. I can't, personally.

[upi402]

108. lol, who broad-brushes and WHO is stupid? "talkin' snakes, 6K yr old earth, woman from a rib"

Jesus, save me from your followers.

[spoony]

111. That's what you've got?

You seem to have trouble focusing and staying on topic. First you dribble your way from a savage act to a condemnation of all religion, then you start dribbling about young earth creationism for whatever reason, and you end with a bumper sticker. Wow.

Imagine a world with linear, clear thoughts.

[LanternWaste]

116. Violence abhors a vacuum...

Violence abhors a vacuum and would inevitably gravitate to other philosophies were religion not available to subvert, much as it has done on numerous other occasions...

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

65. I will never understand

How this shit is still happening in the twenty first century.

[Joe the Liberal]

68. Republicans would fit in well in that country! nt

[Dorian Gray]

89. I don't even know what to say about this

the poor poor baby girl. She was only 13, and she was raped, then stoned to death.

[LaurenG]

98. Oh no.

kill the victim, and the men get off scot free for rape and murder... :cry:

[RetiredTrotskyite]

113. WHY Is It....

that fundies always blame the woman when she is raped? What, a woman can't be raped? Oh yeah, I forgot--if they're raped, they asked for it.:sarcasm: This reminds me of something I saw on the old Discovery Times Channel--some poor girl was hung in Iran for crimes against morality. Like this poor girl in Mogadishu, she was considered older than she really was--and that made the difference between life and death.

I believe that decent Muslims do not support this crap, but are forced to keep silent lest they suffer a similar fate. This is what I have to keep telling myself when things like this happen--these are Fundie Fanatics and certainly not worthy of the name of Muslims. I hope that the time will come when the peoples who are under Fundamentalist tyrannies will be able to rise against these bastards.

This is unfortunately what could well face us here in America if Fundies of any stripe are allowed to take power. This is what I remember every night when I pray to God and Goddess that Obama is elected. There really is too much at stake in this election.

[Kitty Herder]

117. I hope there is a hell, so the men who did this can rot in it. nt

[samsingh]

118. poor, poor girl. This makes me so angry. how can people be this

vile and disgusting!?? fuckin assholes.

[samsingh]

119. i can't get the horror this poor girl felt out of my mind

[mainegreen]

120. So many Somalis have fled southern Somalia, that all that is left is the shitbags and the desperate.

And the ratio of shitbags to everyone else is rising.

[Luna_C_06]

127. Hold on a second,

I just reread this and did you say she was stoned for ADULTERY? As in she was already married at 13? Holy shit!