Re: "Profanity."

[Beregond2]

I have had my ass royally reamed (to use the preferred patois here) for my post questioning the endemic vulgarity in our society. I have read through all the posts, and here are the salient points:

1. I am a disgusting conservative, for even suggesting that language matters.
2. I am a sexist pig with Victorian attitudes, for daring to suggest that women should be treated with "special" respect.
3. I know nothing about language, and should embrace crudity in all it's marvelous forms.
4. I am incapable of making a well-reasoned argument, and contradict myself at every turn.
5. Democracy implies a complete lack of standards for civil discourse, and to suggest otherwise reveals me as a hopeless snob.
6. To suggest that creative writing has declined due to an overuse of profanity is to advocate for censorship.

No doubt there are more, but I can only take so much learning in one day.

I want to thank you all for these profound insights. I confess, none of them would have occured to me. Now I would like to share some of the points I have taken away from this discussion:

1. Many people would rather be burned at the stake than have their God-given right to express themselves like residents of a boy's reformatory questioned. I applaud their conviction.
2. Many women judge their level of social progress by their ability to behave as badly as men do, and take any attempt to spare them exposure to ugly, abusive, obnoxious behavior as condescending and sexist. Having been brought up to be a gentleman, which means trying to create an atmosphere where all people can feel comfortable, it is hard for me to adjust to that. But I will do my best. You will pardon me though if I still insist my mother be treated with respect. She is from a generation that still prefers that.
3. Being an English major and sometime professional lyricist, I had the mistaken impression that I knew a thing or two about words. Obviously I was mistaken. I bow to the superior wisdom of those who think "Fuck you" is a priceless bon mot.
4. I had thought that stating the premise of my argument was enough to keep it on target. I should have realized that the mere presence of the word "lady" would be enough to turn it into a lightning rod for feminist anger. I apologize for my lack of reasoning skill.
5. I thought that a group of people who are often filled with praise for the eloquence of our candidate would not be so quick to defend trashy language. I shold have realikzed from the posts here how wrong I was.
6. I didn't realize that to be a Democrat these days apparently means embracing all the worst aspects of our trash culture. To do otherwise is to be relegated to the status of irrelevant fuddy-duddy. Well...I can't do much about that. I am old enough to remember when American culture was the pinnacle of world achievement, and I am idealistic enough to hope we can climb that mountain again.

Again, thanbks for the education.

[asthmaticeog]

1. I'd like to see some links to discussion threads wherein DUers make these assertions.

This all sounds way too skewed. I'm leaning toward the conclusion you're perhaps knocking down straw men.

Fuckstick.

[question everything]

6. Here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4338216

I just found it and added some words of encouragements, obviously, I am in the minority. Again.

[rch35]

78. here too.... :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4339444&mesg_id=4339444

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Don't forget you're intellectually dishonest.

"1. I am a disgusting conservative, for even suggesting that language matters."

No, you're a disgusting conservative for entirely difference reasons.

"2. I am a sexist pig with Victorian attitudes, for daring to suggest that women should be treated with "special" respect."

Well, except for those "stupid women" who disagree with you.

"3. I know nothing about language, and should embrace crudity in all it's marvelous forms."

You certainly embrace crudity in one marvelous form.

"4. I am incapable of making a well-reasoned argument, and contradict myself at every turn."

You certainly were in that thread. Try harder next time.

"5. Democracy implies a complete lack of standards for civil discourse, and to suggest otherwise reveals me as a hopeless snob."

George Carlin was less vulgar and was more civil than you and your thread.

"6. To suggest that creative writing has declined due to an overuse of profanity is to advocate for censorship."

I thought it odd that you mocked a hypothetical use of the word "nigger" in Casablanca, considering Ingrid Bergman's racist use of the word "boy" in the same film. Particularly in view of the racial comments you make later in the thread when you started getting desperate.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

4. Well, I didn't think you could get any fucking dumber.

I was wrong.

Guess we both learned something today.

[jus_the_facts]

21. LMMFAO....

[Forkboy]

22. Best sketch ever.

:rofl:

[jus_the_facts]

23. I just couldn't fuckin' resist...

:D

[lazyriver]

118. Agreed!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. It's like the McCain campaign.

After getting his "ass reamed" to use the OP's words, instead of conceding defeat he'd rather make a bigger fool of himself.

[Forkboy]

49. I'm expecting a third thread any moment now.

:crazy:

[Richard Steele]

81. No shit! You and I both were sure as hell pretty fucking wrong on that one, eh?

You'd think I would have learned by now: trollish conservatives
can ALWAYS get fucking dumber. And, given half a fucking chance,
they WILL, just as sure as shit comes from corn.

[ShortnFiery]

5. Back on our "pity potty" I see? Nope, I'm not going to enable this dysfunctional behavior. eom

[vanderBeth]

7. This shit again?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

8. Bernie Mac breaks down "motherfucker":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FaHXIhX_4

[TroglodyteScholar]

9. Honestly, I think you're missing the point.

Most of us don't really enjoy being lectured by people who come across as self-righteous and judgmental.

[TZ]

15. Don't forget condescending and sexist.

[madinmaryland]

73. Sheesh. Sounds like the swarm is out again!

Lecturing about lounge etiquette. Sounds like someone's rock-n-roll sockpuppet!!1!!

:rofl:

[Athens30603]

33. Oh, I dunno...

...I see tons of judgmental stuff here at DU all the time. Most of it I never bring myself to respond to because I don't want to get into an internet argument. But there's a lot of judgmental people and attitudes on here.

[jhrobbins]

60. Absolutely - it is rampant here - it just isn't about this. I guarantee

that if someone started using the words n.....r or f.g or s..c, etc, etc, that those posters that wanted to have free speech would suddenly become screaming censors. What's the difference if someone is offended. He said he was offended, but his opinion wasn't valid because - well, I cannot figure out why his opinion wasn't valid. I was just surprised at the level of vitriol at his OP and the subsequent attacks on his intellect, his motives, his sincerity. SO, we either have free speech, in all it's (oftentimes ugly) forms or we don't. I'm betting that we don't

[Tangerine LaBamba]

10. Come over here and sit with Tangerine,

who can swear like a longshoreman when it's warranted, but who loves having doors held open for her and who applauds the differences between the sexes.

There's a sore lack of something called tolerance, wouldn't you say, among some people who would, more often than not, refer to themselves as "liberal" or "progressive," and it's sometimes quite dangerous to have an opinion that deviates from their norm.

My norm is mine. Yours is yours. If yours doesn't infringe on mine, I think it's just fine.

Now, let us curl up and watch "Hardball" and make insulting comments about Pat Buchanan.........................

[ColbertWatcher]

11. Tell you what, why not post a list of words you want banned, behavior you want criminalized. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. and to continue.

"1. Many people would rather be burned at the stake than have their God-given right to express themselves like residents of a boy's reformatory questioned. I applaud their conviction."

Live free or die. Many men gave their lives for my right to be vulgar. And many of them used to shoot Nazis. Remember them? They used to have some interesting opinions on what was and what was not degenerate.

"2. Many women judge their level of social progress by their ability to behave as badly as men do, and take any attempt to spare them exposure to ugly, abusive, obnoxious behavior as condescending and sexist. Having been brought up to be a gentleman, which means trying to create an atmosphere where all people can feel comfortable, it is hard for me to adjust to that. But I will do my best. You will pardon me though if I still insist my mother be treated with respect. She is from a generation that still prefers that."

Your mom and me are from the same generation. Speaking for my generation, you're completely full of shit.

"3. Being an English major and sometime professional lyricist, I had the mistaken impression that I knew a thing or two about words. Obviously I was mistaken. I bow to the superior wisdom of those who think "Fuck you" is a priceless bon mot."

As an astronaut with a double secret PhD in Communications, this makes me laugh. If your mom had majored in English instead of hanging out with those loggers, she would have been right their at Beatnik ground zero.

"Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole
boatload of sensitive bullshit! "

And all that jazz.

"4. I had thought that stating the premise of my argument was enough to keep it on target. I should have realized that the mere presence of the word "lady" would be enough to turn it into a lightning rod for feminist anger. I apologize for my lack of reasoning skill."

Again, intellectual dishonesty. Once again, it's got nothing to do with the word, but the sentiment behind it.

"5. I thought that a group of people who are often filled with praise for the eloquence of our candidate would not be so quick to defend trashy language. I shold have realikzed from the posts here how wrong I was."

I've met Barack Obama. You, sir, are no Barack Obama.

"6. I didn't realize that to be a Democrat these days apparently means embracing all the worst aspects of our trash culture. To do otherwise is to be relegated to the status of irrelevant fuddy-duddy. Well...I can't do much about that. I am old enough to remember when American culture was the pinnacle of world achievement, and I am idealistic enough to hope we can climb that mountain again."

These days? Did you just stumble out of a time machine?

The funniest part of this stuff, is how your whole thesis was about how a poor choice of words could ruin a person.

And now look. You've ruined yourself.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. K&R

[TZ]

14. Want to tell me how I'm going to be physically abused

without your protection again?
Geezus you have a thick skull.

[trof]

16. From one gentleman to another: K&R

And you sir, are a true wordsmith.
Don't give up.
Ever.
I predict a long and successful career here at DU.
And I welcome your presence and participation.
:thumbsup:

[noamnety]

17. Regarding point 2

I read your post, there are certainly some aspects of it I agree with. I didn't respond directly to you in that thread, but I will tell you I also cringed at the thoughts regarding having to treat women as "ladies."

It's not that women should have to sink to some level of disrespect that men are at - not that at all, though I think that's how you are interpreting it. From a woman's perspective here, the point should be to raise everyone, not lower women. So the concern should be that people be treated with respect. If you have special concern regarding women and cursing, I would rather see that you address it as you would any oppressed group or minority who is the target of hate speech. I don't need your concern that someone said "shit" in front of my delicate ears. I'd rather that in a group of men-only, you spoke out against the use of sexist slurs. It's not my ears that matter, in other words, it's the racism/sexism/homophobia of the speaker themselves that I wish you were more concerned about. That's a harder thing to do, to take a stand against some men saying offensive things just because it's wrong, without having us poor women to fall back on. ("Myself, I don't care, but please think of the delicate lady's ears, won't you?") If they are saying something offensive, I would rather you take responsibility for YOU being offended. Don't put it on us. Don't put forth the implication that men can handle offense and conflict but women need to be protected from such things. It's like if a friend says something racist. You should tell them to stop because it's wrong. Don't just tell them to stop when People of Color are in the room.

I've had similar conversations with fellow teachers. In one education course, one of the guys works with troubled young women. He said he sometimes has to remind them to act like ladies. The women in the class had to stop him and explain why that was offensive - he honestly didn't get it. When we talk about acting like "ladies" - the words that come to mind are well-behaved, quiet, polite, nonaggressive. Compliant. And I think your "treating us like ladies" grows out of that.

Now think about acting like "a man." The words that come to mind are strong, courageous, independent, filled with integrity. Leadership skills.

That's why treating us like "ladies" often feels like patronizing crap to us. We would prefer to be treated with those other adjectives, treated as independent courageous thinking people, not little flowers whose petals will wilt if a spot of dirt gets on us. We want a different sort of respect than what you are offering, I think.

[Forkboy]

24. Why do I get the feeling you started this OP so no one would see your shit in the other one?

on edit - sorry lwfern, this post was directed at the OP.

[blueraven95]

119. I agree with you completely

The OP should not have been asking members of the gym to watch their language because there are ladies present, he should have been asking those members to watch their language because there are other people present. Or, because there are people who know what those words actually mean present.


I don't agree with taking any words in our language off the table; even the strongest curse words have their appropriate place (although there are a couple where I can't imagine where that place would be). I also know that words have a tendency to change meaning over time. But I can't bring myself to believe it is a good thing that we have become more inured to the shock of those words. I think it is indicative of how hardened we have become to the corruption, tragedy, and devastation that, in many ways, surround our world, in the forms of our current government, poverty, destruction of the environment, etc. As we lose our sensitivity to the shock of certain words, we lose our sensitivity to the mess we've made of so many other things, and that makes us lose our sense of urgency to change things.

Kurt Vonnegut wrote in one of his books (and forgive me, I can't remember which one and I'm paraphrasing) that people should refrain from cursing because it gives an excuse for the listener to stop listening. To me, that is the biggest reason to not curse.

[TZ]

18. Tell me why do women NEED to be treated special?

Hmm? Thats very condescending and sexist to say that..because it implies that women are the weaker sex (physically perhaps) and need to be treated differently! Women are equals and should be treated as such.."special" treatment NOT NEEDED! There is a difference between COURTESY and CONDESCENDING SEXIST ASSUMPTIONS! Yeah its nice if someone opens a door for me, but maybe just maybe I'm capable of opening that door myself?

[ColbertWatcher]

28. "why do women NEED to be treated special?"

...because their ears are tinier and can only handle so much. We men have better bigger
ears and able to handle more smut.

...because if we men don't treat them in a condescending manner, how will we know we're better stronger than they are?

...because by treating women special, we men can grant them the time to do more shopping.

...because when we place women on a pedestal, we can look up their skirts. Women are still mandated to wear skirts, right?

[Lifetimedem]

19. Thank you

I was just thinking how many of the intelligent and thoughtful people that post here feel that if Fuck is not included at least 2 times in a post no one will read it.

I am not offended by language like this, but it does say something about the maturity level of the writer and the extent of his /her vocabulary.

Do we need to say FUCK to get the attention of others or to prove we are grown up (like smoking at 12?)


There are lots of good words that express surprise or disgust that are not crude, but for some reason Americans like to be vulgar.

[L. Coyote]

20. PROFANITY LOWERS SITE RANK.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. In whose opinion?

[jhrobbins]

61. I'm betting it's Coyote's opinion. I'm wondering why this got so personal

impugning someone's intellectand/or motives. He said he thought there was too much profanity and it's off to the races.

[TZ]

26. And thats of course of more importance

Than treating women like delicate flowers that need protection...:crazy:

[L. Coyote]

27. If you say so?

Huh?

[TZ]

35. Did you read the sexist GARBAGE

This poster has been spewing?

[jkshaw]

32. Oh?

Call me down with some of that language to my face and I'd wrap my cane around your neck.

I'm that delicate.

[Richard Steele]

82. Thank you for your concern, Bev.

nm

[RoseMead]

29. Two things:

1. American culture has never been the pinnacle of world achievement.

2. Whether you mean to or not, you sound like a holier-than-thou member of the word police. This is the cause of the reactions you received to your earlier post, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

But since you know so much better than the rest of us, please continue attempting to spank us for our naughty potty mouths. It's cute.


Edited to add: Holy moly man! I left the earlier thread before you went over the top with the whole 'protect the ladies' line. The posters on that thread (and this one) are right - you are, at the least, coming across as very condescending to women. If this isn't your intent, maybe you need to work on *your* communication skills.

I am not stupid, and I don't need your protection from anything. And that's about all I've got to say on this subject.

[jkshaw]

30. Never mind beregond2

Posters don't like to be called on their language, or their spelling for that matter, and it comes out to a waste of time to do it because you always get flamed about it. But what they're using isn't profanity, as I mentioned on another thread (and expect to get reamed for such a "nitpicking" notion).

The language you're speaking of is vulgarity, indecencies, coarseness. Fill-in words for want of a term or a group of words a little more to the point. Sometimes they're hilariously funny -- to me, anyway. Especially if they add to the post.

But PROFANITY is comprised of words blaspheming something sacred like the Bible or the Koran. The oath, "Jesus Christ!" is a profanity. "Jesus F'ing Christ!" is more extreme and includes a vulgarity. "Jesus F'ing Christ on a Pogo Stick" is blue ribbon vulgar profanity. Yet they're used on this board all the time.

I don't understand why it inflames some of my favorite posters so to be called on it once in a while, though. A good-natured thanks-a-lot would be much more appropriate, not to mention kinder.

[ColbertWatcher]

31. You forgot about the sexist hand-holding. n/t

[jkshaw]

36. Don't understand that one, hon.

[ColbertWatcher]

38. Well, I never!

(BTW, I'm a dude, dude.)

[jkshaw]

44. Honey, I use the term all the time for both dudes and dudesses

I think you're all mostly cute and I'm old enough to be grandmother or even greatgrandmother to many of you.

[ColbertWatcher]

63. I beg your pardon! Although, you're probably only old enough to be my older sister! n/t

[TZ]

37. So you are down with him telling me

Not to run to him for protection FROM PHYSICAL ABUSE because I don't deserve it not being offended to hear people cursing around me? Because I'm low class for cursing myself?
Color me crazy but I don't like being treated like a VICTORIAN era woman who needs a man to do things for her.

[jkshaw]

50. What in the world are you talking about?

[TZ]

53. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4338216&mesg_id=4339469

[jhrobbins]

62. Exactly

[RainDog]

89. So you think you have a right to "call" people on their language?

you have a right to ignore people and threads.

I did not know that you and other with your opinion had been granted special powers to decide what words were acceptable for adults to use.

[KitchenWitch]

34. Oh for fuck's sake!

[TZ]

39. Now you've done it!

He's not gonna be there to protect you when you need him!:rofl:

[KitchenWitch]

43. ...

Like I would need his lame ass protection anyway...

:rofl:

[windoe]

40. Tough times bring tough language

-my first point. Bankruptcies, foreclosures, lay offs, gas prices, war, loss of civil rights will naturally result in more cussing.

Second point: I agree this society is starving for eloquent speech, good poetry and lyrics, and to hear what a real debate sounds like. Dumbed down schools and mainstream media has influenced and eroded the English language.

Third point: Telling people to stop cussing, IMHO, will just result in more cussing. Take my word for it.

I believe we are on the same page in that I believe that hate speech is a different story altogether, since it comes across as actually threatening and often can lead to a violent situation--because of the ill intent inherent in the words.
Cussing however, is a good way to let off steam and avoid violence, since it feels better and most often not actually threatening.

Just my 2 cents.....

[PeaceNikki]

41. I agree with the "sexist pig"/Victorian attitudes accusation.

:shudder:

And I fucking laugh at your being bothered by profanity. It's ridiculous.

[Lilith Velkor]

72. Remember: women who are not offended deserve to be beaten.

Link is in post #53.

[PeaceNikki]

74. Holy shit. Now I have more to say to the OP...

[Lilith Velkor]

83. He tried to slither out of it by creating another thread.

[PeaceNikki]

88. That's seriously fucked up shit right there.

[ColbertWatcher]

42. BTW, I think these kinds of threads serve only one purpose ...

... to distract from real issues.

I guess that's a good sign that we're confident that we'll win, but I think it's worse to torture people than to say "fuck."

I think it's worse to be condescending to half the world's population than to say the word "fuck."

Also, your passive-aggressive list of mobile goal posts to close this thread doesn't help your case.

[Gregorian]

46. I've been shocking my self.

I've watched this site devolve into the fowl language posts. I guess I shouldn't say devolve because I'm not really taking a side. After all, I have one hell of a foul mouth. But mostly when I'm in private. In fact, lately I've been shocking myself at just how odd I am beginning to sound. I was going over a survey with my engineer the other day, and we're all standing outside, and I was embarrassed for the words that flowed frictionlessly from me.

I didn't post to your original thread. I saw the reactive replies and figured it was a lost cause. But the forum did seem to start out with rules that included profanity. Not any more. In fact, I recall in the beginning when subjects in all caps would get a user banned. I'm pretty sure I saw that. And then suddenly profanity pervaded.

I personally don't mind it. I get a kick out of it. I hang out on a European art forum where anything goes. It's puerile and irreverent, to say the least.

But, the site suffers for it. What I mean is that to an uninitiated viewer looking upon us for the first time, I would imagine it's quite possibly an indicator of content quality.

I also recognize that there is evolution. As a music aficionado, I've had to swallow all kinds of things. I'm older, and yet I'm right there with the 15 year olds. So what the fuck? Maybe subject lines on the Greatest page that are seen by all are what we're really talking about. That would be my suggestion, if anything were to be changed. Or maybe this is just a big old club of crazies. I'm just not sure.

:)

[RainDog]

75. Aw, c'mom. We're heading into Thanksgiving. Fowl language is expected.

[RainDog]

79. I never knew about profanity rules for DU

are they still up somewhere? when did the rules change?

the reason I ask this question, also, is that anyone who was online before web-based browsers, etc. would expect that profanity is an acceptable part of conversation for an online discussion forum.

not so now that news outlets, etc. have comment sections.

I'm asking about this profanity rule out of real interest, btw.

[Gregorian]

95. If I answer that I might have to duck the mods.

Well, I admit that I'm taking a guess. But I am not supposed to be here. I was kicked off this forum sometime around 2003. And from all I can gather, it was for using all caps in a subject line. I kid you not. I spent an entire year just wondering what happened. And eventually resurfaced under a different email account. I always wondered what would happen if they found out I had come back. And I didn't see any kind of FOUL language back then. But I seem to recall that caps and multiple exclamation marks were taboo. Am I nuts? Maybe I was just totally noobed.

Hm, this was a thread I intended to avoid. See what happens? :)

[PeaceNikki]

80. "Fowl" language?!

:rofl:

[noamnety]

91. flipping someone the bird. n/t

[Gregorian]

94. Buk buk buk bukaw!

Haha. See, it never pays to be serious.

:)

[Occulus]

47. Please take your sanctimonious ass elsewhere

Thanks in advance.

[RainDog]

48. you have enough straw men there for a Halloween tableau

but I do think you look really stunning wearing victim across your martyred brow.

[TZ]

52. Nice one!

Yeah I get the feeling that he wants to point out how he's right and the rest of the world's wrong and teh poor widdle think is soooo misunderstood...:hi:

[Ikonoklast]

51. Deja Vu Thread Not Going Well

[alarimer]

54. On point 6, I think you are way off-base.

If, as you assert (although I would like to see some proof) that creative writing has declined, it has done so for any number of other reasons. Some of the greats have been censored because of their coarse language, although I think you would agree that Grapes of Wrath should in fact be widely read. Or do you want to censor that because it has some naughty words in it? How about Shakespeare? He was pretty bawdy. Should I shield my eyes? How about Chaucer? The Miller's Tale just about gave me the vapors.

But back to reasons for the decline in creative writing. What about text messaging and internet-speak? (not that I really believe those are reasons for this mythic decline). Television? Rap music? Country music, Steven King? Video Games? Those have all been blamed for the decline of popular culture as we know at one time or another.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Lackluster logic, brilliantly articulated.

If you believe that women should be treated with special respect, then you are a sexist pig with victorian attitudes. Surely your mastery of words enables you to grok the concept of "equality".

I don't really disagree with the rest of your points. I think that degraded language has harmed our social fiber, but I don't think that tipping my hat and placing my jacket in the street for "ladies" to walk upon will restore it.

[fishwax]

56. I think you learned the wrong lessons

:shrug:

[pitohui]

57. you're new to the internet, eh?

your post is refreshing, it's like 1993 all over again

[Lilith Velkor]

85. Yeah, no shit.

[XRubicon]

58. Poppycock... nt

[lonestarnot]

59. Guess you probably didn't enjoy Lenny Bruce, George Carlin or Richard Pryor then hugh?

Kiss my sweet ass.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

64. No, no, no, no.

There is no profanity quite like the 4000+ dead in Iraq, whose caskets cannot be shown.

Nor is there any like Habeus Corpus being buried.

Or the right to Equal Protection under the law.

A Woman's Right To Choose still not being hers.

My GLBT brothers and sisters being denied their right to marriage. Their RIGHT.

My overseas phonecalls being listened to, in case they might be naughty, and somewhere down the line, subversive. But naughty first.

Voting Right for Americans being subverted by Americans.

Free speech zones.

America knee deep in poverty, ignorance and crime. AKA The Last Eight Years.

Michelle Bachmann. Corsi. Buchanan. Pick any other asshat and add it to these.

All of this has gone on, and saying FUCK is obscene?

The FUCK you say.

[mythyc]

65. In general, one who demands strict verbal principles damn well better adhere to them

I'm a college English instructor, so thought I might offer some feedback on ironies within the OP's homily.

like residents of a boy's reformatory. (this should be a plural possessive: "boys'")

I shold have realikzed from the posts here how wrong I was.(sic)

Well...I can't do much about that. (spaces between elpises)

Again, thanbks for the education.(sic)

.

A final note:

trying to create an atmosphere where all people can feel comfortable

Well, the OP has certainly been a paragon of this particular virtue....

[bertman]

66. Fuckin' aye, Beregond2, I'm with you like stink on shit, dude. Too much cursin goin on.

Not to mention misspelling and misunderestimating and poor punctuating.

[gollygee]

67. The paternalistic attitude that we women need you to take care of us and stop people from swearing

around us is annoying as HELL. Much more annoying than hearing some coarse language from time to time. Did you think you'd have all the women of DU posting, "OH thank you for helping us! We really needed a man to stick up for us and take care of us like that!" I don't care how or if you use the word "lady". I have no problem with that word. I DO have a problem with you thinking you are in a position to pigeon-hole women as "ladies" and "not ladies".

[gollygee]

68. Re the word "lady"

It's the way you use the word that is a problem. When people use the word the way you use it, to differentiate "good" women from "bad" women, it's buying into the whole virgin/whore dichotomy. Women who need you to defend them vs. women who deserve whatever happens to them. THAT is sexist, not the 4 letters L, A, D and Y.

[FlyingSquirrel]

69. Have you seen this?

http://www.e-thepeople.org/article/1770101/view?viewtype=

(only slightly off-topic) :)

Student Gets Credit for Expletive on Exam

A British high school student received credit for writing nothing but a two-word obscenity on an exam paper because the phrase expressed meaning and was spelled correctly.

The Times newspaper on Monday quoted examiner Peter Buckroyd as saying he gave the student - who wrote an expletive starting with f, followed by the word "off" - two points out of a possible 27 for the English paper.

"It would be wicked to give it zero because it does show some very basic skills we are looking for, like conveying some meaning and some spelling," Buckroyd was quoted as saying.

"It's better than someone that doesn't write anything at all."

Buckroyd said the student would have received a higher mark if the phrase had been punctuated.

Buckroyd is a senior examiner for the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance, one of several bodies that grade British high school exams.

He said the expletive was used in 2006 by a student in response to the question: "Describe the room you are sitting in."

The alliance confirmed the newspaper's story was accurate, but said Buckroyd's decision to award the student marks was not official policy.

"The example cited was unique in the experience of the senior examiner concerned and was used in a pre-training session to emphasize the importance of adhering to the mark scheme: i.e. if a candidate makes any sort of response to a question then it must be at least given consideration to be awarded a mark," the company said in a statement.

It said obscenities on exam papers "should either be disregarded, or action will be taken against the candidate, depending on the seriousness of the case."

[KG]

70. 'I am old enough to remember when American culture was the pinnacle of world achievement,'

that sentence explains alot. you really do live in a fantasy world.

[WillowTree]

71. Just for the record,

there are still some people.......and some women.......who share and appreciate your views. Guess I'm just another one of those out-of-touch, fuddy-duddy types who understand that such overuse of coarse, vulgar language is mostly just a coverup for a lack of confidence in one's own ability to make a point forcefully based on conviction alone. I, too, find many of those posts difficult to take very seriously.

Pity.

[PeaceNikki]

77. Do you appreciate THIS view?

How the OP ties the general use of profanity and tolerance of profanity to abuse!??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4338216&mesg_id=4339469

[RainDog]

90. Your assumptions about the uses of language are vulgar conceits

I can almost certainly assure you that I have more "bona fides" concerning language study/usage than you do. I'll roll out some of my vita if you'd like. Some people choose to use words for reasons that have nothing to do with grasp of language application. Some people use such words BECAUSE of their grasp of language application.

However, this is, oh, I dunno, maybe half a dozen times now I have seem this cliche vomited onto this thread or the other. This bromide is, honestly, drivel coming from one adult to another. By your judgment, Ulysses, Joyce's moment rolling his literary tongue over Molly's plump melon buttocks would have rightly stayed banned.

there's a word for this sort of thinking: philistine.

[undergroundpanther]

99. Fucking punctilious repartee,Raindog!

[PeaceNikki]

76. You deserve EVERY word of crticism and a LOT more

I am disgusted and appalled that you would somehow tie the general use of profanity and tolerance of profanity to abuse.

You are a sick fuck.

[undergroundpanther]

97. A definition

Abuse hurts it is the deliberate intention to harm someone.

Being offended is NOT the same thing as abuse

Being offended is a CHOICE, is an AESTHETIC/preference issue.

Anti cuss people have issues and try to control others speech because of their own urge to taboo and aesthetic PREFERENCES.

I do not have to honor anyone's FUCKING language usage preferences if I choose not to.So get over IT already.
I prefer to CUSS,How come MY preference is always seen as wrong by a minority of sanctimonious anti cuss people who think their aesthetic preferences are sacrosanct?
Maybe the anti-cuss people are the WRONG headed ones here?

[Iggo]

84. Oooooh. So that thread was about YOU!

I seem to have missed the whole point.

[RainDog]

87. I think the real issue is mores of x or y group and left libertarian/left authoritarian diffs.

it would be interesting for people on this thread and the other one to take the Political Compass test to see if there are any overlaps.

I know my profile was far left/libertarian and that pov is here too.

[unkachuck]

86. I'm going....

....to give this a kick....

"...but I can only take so much learning in one day."

....it's obvious to me that you're sincerely trying to rehabilitate and reform....

[Withywindle]

92. Oh my GOD.

Giant straw man alert!




When you're in a hole, STOP DIGGING.

[Lilith Velkor]

101. A straw man with a soon-to-be-crispy Christian inside.

Very apt.

[undergroundpanther]

103. Yeah enough pagans died

for Christian smug assholes wanting to dominate the world,make it a whited sanctimonious sepulcher ,The church where rape of little boys is tolerated, but you dare not speak the word fuck.. ..About time we had some crispy christian on a stick...Christian's claiming purity is a bunch of bullshit.Christianity NEEDS to be chastised,criticized, and that biblical cow slaughtered.

[rockymountaindem]

112. I wouldn't hold the entire body of Christians out there in the world responsible

for the acts of some who perpetrated horrible acts, either now or in the past. And I'm a Jew.

You're painting with a pretty broad brush there.

[Withywindle]

105. Was there anyone in the world who actually rooted for Ed Woodward's character?

*crickets*

didn't think so.

Also, Christopher Lee in that role: :9


Straw man arguments definitely burn real pretty.

[prayin4rain]

93. You obviously couldn't care less that you have offended people

You think you are right and will just continue to rub everyone's nose in your offensive ideas. I know I cuss too much... I think as a society we could cuss less and it would probably be better. But this lady vs. woman bullshit is downright degrading.

[undergroundpanther]

96. I cuss because it expresses

a visceral raw emotion that normal un-tabooed words cannot express.
You see cussing only has power when you taboo it.
Take away the taboo and it is just expression.

I get frustrated at people who don't like cussing failing to be responsible for their own"virgin ears" .

I cuss,sometimes alot,I do it to keep from exploding inside.Letting out a shit,fuck or damn,releases the visceral emotions I feel.That's what cussing does that's what it is for.

If you don't like it do not listen, you have ears and fingers use them.If you are reading a post,well stop reading it,go to "clean" pages to talk or christian sites or children's sites. They are cuss free.

Look,
I am emetiphobic. I hate puke scenes in movies. But I know it is MY responsibility to not infringe on others with my stupid phobia.
I plug my ears until it is over and enjoy the movie anyway.
I have PSTD and triggers get to me,I know it is MY responsibility to deal with triggers no one should have to bend the way they are because I get triggered.So I do what I have to do . I leave, I walk away, change the subject or I just politely decline an invite if I am pretty sure the situation will be triggering.

Maybe you should learn to do that taking responsibility for your own reactions as I do, yourself.

Not everyone thinks cussing is bad and many do not have those belief systems that taboo words.After all as Carlin said Shoot is shit with two o's.

[Withywindle]

102. Oh, I can sort of relate to the emitophobia.

For me, it's not puking per se (because it's rare in public). What I really hate is hawking and spitting on the sidewalk. Which people do. EVERYWHERE around here, with impunity. (Though I don't think I've ever seen a woman doing it, come to think of it.) UGH. UGH. Every time someone does it, or I pass one of those revolting little puddles of spit and snot, I start to gag and almost lose it.

That is WAY more offensive to me than any "dirty" word in any language.

I'm all for free speech. But "HHHWWWWWWCCHCHCHCHCHCHCH - puiti - SPLAT" isn't speech. It's on a par with shitting on the sidewalk in public, IMO.

But you know what - I don't really expect people to bow to my particular and idiosyncratic delicate sensibilities.

[undergroundpanther]

106. I spit lugies

But I do it away from the sidewalk,I don't want a puddle of it left there.It's gross.But if I have to do it I do it,fast and no dramatic hawking.I am not gonna swallow it that's even MORE gross..There is a reason it leaves the body.
So I spit away from the sidewalk I do it in a rain gutter or in the grass away where no one will see.Because it is gross.
I spat lugies as a female too.As a kid. Ever hear of a farmers nose blow? I do that too if I have to,I do it away from the public.Just like I think seeing puke is gross, snot is too,I am discreet not just for the gross factor but for the hazardous waste reason too.
If I have to pee or whatever I use the same discretion.
Hazardous waste.

[Withywindle]

108. Nasty!

I admit, I did it that one time I had strep throat and had to stagger from the doc to the pharmacy. But I went out of my way to find a trash can, even with my 102 fever.

I remember years ago touring the Lower East Side tenement museum in NYC. One of the artifacts that struck me HARD was a beautiful cobalt blue glass bottle with a silver lid. It was for consumptives to spit into. At the turn of the last century, it was understood they couldn't help it, but it was also their responsibility to not expose the rest of the population.

Last I saw, there was still a sign at the Delancey Street subway station promising a fine for spitting that dated to those days. Sorry, I think it should still be enforced. If you can't keep your phlegm to yourself, carry a vessel for it. (I'm a smoker, I find old Altoids tins work well for MY toxic waste).

[undergroundpanther]

109. I don't live where there are trashcans

I live in the suburbs where sidewalks don't cover where I walk.

I spit but do it out of the way.

[Withywindle]

111. Oh, I live in Chicago, so that's totally different.

Trashcans galore here. But yet, still the trashy people outnumber them.

Not going to start multiple threads on DU or anything about it. I just silently look at the people who do it and think, UGH.

[awoke_in_2003]

98. When people get you down...

and start ragging on you, just say: "Motherfuck you motherfucking motherfuckers: :)

[undergroundpanther]

100. I prefer..

Fuck you, you fuckin' fuck

[LeftyMom]

104. You really ought to consider why certain words bother you so much.

Let's take, for example (sit down, a woman is about to use some fairly naughty language to make a point) some various words for female anatomy. Now I assume that, even though you're clearly a raging prude, you barely blush at the word vagina, but if somebody were to say pussy or cunt you'd need smelling salts. (See, I warned you.) Now the thing that strikes me as odd about this is that they all mean the same thing. One is regarded as learned and clinical, the others as coarse, sexualized and rude. The reason for this is that in English speaking countries we have a cultural bias dating back to medieval England to regard words derived from French and Latin (the languages of nobility and the church) as wholesome, high-minded and classy, while the Anglo-Saxon and Germanic words used by the peasantry are coarse and rude, even when both describe the exact same object.

The same would be true of some other famous words of Anglo-Saxon or Germanic derivation that describe body functions, such as shit, fuck and piss.

In short, you're engaging in hand-wringing over a thousand year old bias you never even knew existed. That's rather sad.

[undergroundpanther]

107. I wish more anti-cuss

people asked themselves that.I get tired of the school marm mentality in some people.They need to get over it and realize they cannot control others speech.Only how they react to it.They can ask but not expect compliance to a preference if said cusser does not want to comply..I get irritated when people use the word rape for stupid trivial things. But I know why it irritates me.and I also know I cannot make them change their vernacular for me.So I just handle it.And let it go.

[mackerel]

110. Beregond2 - it seems that profanity doesn't bother most

of the members. I think it's more about communicating meaning and I hope you can accept that we all bring different forms of expression to the forum. I wouldn't want to stifle your opinion and the way you express yourself and I believe that ultimately you too feel the same way.

[Withywindle]

113. That's probably why, in a sexual context, I find the Latinate "proper" words such a turnoff.

I figure, if a woman uses the same words with her lover that she does with her gynecologist, something's gone horribly wrong. (Unless of course she's fucking her gynecologist.)

I like the fact that "cunt" can be dated back at least to Chaucer, and "cock" is a logical metaphor for any agricultural society.

[Jed Dilligan]

114. I still can't wrap my mind around what the fuck this discussion is about.

[obiwan]

115. I agree with you. You are judged by how you speak.

Anything said otherwise is a poor excuse for rational discourse. Since we more or less communicate anonymously at these sites. it's really important that you are crystal clear in your thought process.

Modern fast-food culture subjugates language usage to the lowest common denominator. There seems to be an overwhelming excuse of "you know what I mean." This is, well, laziness. If you don't care to express yourself clearly and correctly, then a lot of folks here will not take you seriously. A good case in point is the site Freerepublic.com where due to their anger and irrationalism, the English is habitually and routinely mauled every night. It doesn't have as much too do with intelligence as with attention to detail. If you want to be clearly understood, spell words correctly and use proper English. In other words, clarity of thought.

[Zhade]

116. You got schooled on how you shouldn't try to force your personal interpretations on others.

You earned it.

[elshiva]

117. You have to be kidding us!

This is quite silly. :rofl: