If a man and woman both apply for one math professor position...

[Boojatta]

... and the employer considers them to be equally qualified for the job, then the school should ...

[Sanity Claws]

1. If they both seem well qualified, which one would be a better fit?

Maybe one has a strength that the math department is weak in.
There must be some way of distinguishing between the candidates, other than their genitals.

[pitohui]

19. it's the math dept, you're saying to always hire the man if you go by who fits in

i hope things have changed since my day but at my university there were NO female math profs and there was one adjunct (in other words not even one "real") female physics prof who was really only on staff because she was a tenured male prof's wife

in some depts you have to forget about "what's the best fit" and start looking at "how are we going to change things around here"

otherwise it's forever, the man would always be picked above the woman, the south asian dude would always be picked above the black guy, and so on

in the problem as stated, of both hires of being equally ability, i would hire the woman and hope she is able to stand up to the hazing

that's the only way things change, not that they ever will in my lifetime

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. Just how much experience of maths departments have you had?

I've had quite a lot, and it suggests to me that your post has relatively little to do with the reality of them, at least here in the UK.

If you did what you were proposing and anyone found out, you would - quite rightly - be sued for discrimination.

[TheWraith]

76. That's another angle to what I was going to suggest, which is attitude.

Who's more personable? Who's got a more enthusiastic and interesting teaching style? Who can keep the students' attention better? In their own ways those are every bit as important as technical qualifications, since they also affect how well the person can teach.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. If Boojatta posts an infinite number of randomly worded polls...

how long until one of them is actually interesting?

[raccoon]

32. Your handle is similar to his. I almost got yall mixed up a while ago. nt

[MNDemNY]

3. Reject them both, hire,Sarah Palin.

[FLAprogressive]

4. Easy: Hire both. n/t

[Boojatta]

8. Do you mean replace one full-time job with two part-time jobs?

[LisaL]

24. I don't think there is such a thing as a part-time faculty job.

[raccoon]

31. Huh? There are tons of adjunct faculty around now. nt

[TalkingDog]

41. Dood....I was teaching 5 classes a SEMESTER at 1/3 the pay

and no bennies.

Full time teaches 5 classes a YEAR with health, retirement, dental, bennies like gym memberships and so on....

I finally quit adjunct work when I realized I was basically a Scab. If all the adjunct quit, they would have to hire people for a decent wage and pay benefits.

[Xithras]

63. Umm....we're called "adjunct"

Same work, but at a fraction of the pay and with none of the respect!

[ben_meyers]

5. As long as this is a joke poll I'll give the old joke answer

I'd hire the one with the ........

[JVS]

6. See who will work for less

[petronius]

9. Yeah - play them against one another until you've talked one of them down

to minimum wage and no benefits! :rofl:

Seriously, there is no such thing as 'equally qualified.' Both may exceed the minimum qualifications, but one will be a better fit. And sex may play a role in that - I don't know if it would be legal, but if the department had no female faculty I'd say hire the woman just to provide a mentor/role model for female students. Or, I'd say hire the one that seemed most likely to get along with the rest of the faculty...

[hvn_nbr_2]

7. Hire KKKarl. He's got THE math. nt

[TahitiNut]

10. Hire the male ...

... since he's a disabled Hispanic-American veteran. :shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Easy. Hire The One Who Applied First.

[Boojatta]

16. Why?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. It's Not Obvious?

If they're both identically qualified and capable with no significant differences, then of course the one who applied first should get the job.

It's like two people on line waiting to buy some hot item. By the time they're up to the front, there's only one left. The one ahead on the line gets it. End of story.

[rockymountaindem]

72. Interesting point n/t

[KansDem]

12. Throw both resumes in the wastebasket and hire your friend from grad school...

My resume once wound up in the wastebasket while the head of the search committee hired a friend.

[entanglement]

35. Send them both letters thanking them for their interest in the post-doctoral position

:evilgrin:

Legend has it that something of the kind occurred at a rather prestigious mathematics department which shall remain unnamed. :evilgrin:

[jmowreader]

13. Make them audition

Have them both teach for, oh, a week, then hire the one who does the best job.

[KansDem]

14. I've seen this happen a few times when I was in grad school

Not for an entire week but for one day only.

The field of candidates is narrowed to two or three. Then each one comes on campus for a day and:
1) teaches a class
2) gives a lecture
3) meets informally with students
4) meets somewhat formally with faculty, including administrators

Generally, by the end of the day the better/best one is obvious.

[XemaSab]

27. I've seen that done too

It was interesting, and it definitely separated the candidates.

[Hawkowl]

53. Best solution

I think that is the best solution. However, we are assuming the professor is being hired to teach and not because of their research ability or publication record which many schools value more than teaching ability.

[Ms. Toad]

57. Agreed,

But I would also take into account whether there are already female role models for the math students, and their particular areas of expertise.

As to role models, there weren't when I got my math degrees 25 and 30 years ago, and there STILL aren't enough now...and don't even get me talking about the lack of role models in my second undergrad major - physics. There were none when I was there, and 30 years later, in the two departments combined, there are still only 6 female professors out of 21 at my progressive undergraduate school, with one of the six being a visiting professor.

In addition, it would be rare to have two candidates with not only identical qualifications, but also identical areas of expertise. If the expertise of one candidate could be used to fill out the course offerings, to supplement the faculty in a specialized area the school is already known for, or to add course offerings in an area of anticipated growtn (either based on faculty projection or student requests) that might also make the difference.

[Ikonoklast]

15. Cage Fight

To The Death.

[Fleshdancer]

17. evaluate references and in-person interview performance. n/t

[plaintiff]

18. Pick the one with the big ti....oh wait

wrong joke.
:silly:

[bobbert]

20. Hire the woman

I am male, and I realize there is a lack of science/math professors that are women. We need more female role models in those positions.

[Boojatta]

21. What if the man is African-American?

[cherokeeprogressive]

49. What if the man is a card-carrying member of an American Indian tribe?

Is the color of my skin NOT dark enough?

I hear all kinds of people lament the treatment of "brown" people. How about "red" people?

[LisaL]

22. Get feedback and evaluations from the rest of the faculty, and

hire whoever got the better evaluation scores.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. instead of hiring them, post flamebait on du. nt

[vanderBeth]

50. ^this!

[LeftyMom]

25. You never get perfectly equally qualified candidates in the real world.

Even if their academic credentials were identical, one would give a better interview or something.

[XemaSab]

26. Have each of them come in as a guest lecturer and have the students pick who was better

:shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

28. Good idea.

Invite undergrads and grads to separate, public lectures given by the applicants, and elicit responses from the students.

[MilesColtrane]

29. One table. Two shot glasses. Five bottles of Cuervo.

The last one conscious gets the job.

[cynatnite]

30. Of course hire the woman...she'll be paid less than if the man was hired n/t

[entanglement]

33. If the school has a history of sexism, hire the woman (an 'equal' score means she's really better)

If the school has no issues with sexism (I'd like to see a Math / Engineering department make that claim btw), but women are still under-represented, hire the woman.

[tjwash]

34. Qualified is only half of what it takes to get hired.

I interview a hell of a lot of people, and what gender they are isn't even part of the consideration.

How much of a fit with the rest of the staff are they? Which one will help their fellow teachers more and contribute? Which one seems capable of adapting better and learning new things on the fly? Which one seems to be willing to grow and mature with the place? Do either of them seem to be "short stopping?" Does one of them have a personality that may clash with the rest of the staff?

There's a hell of a lot more to getting a job than being qualified.

[pitohui]

36. and here is why sexism and racism remain so "ingrained"

you have a math dept jampacked full of asperger's syndromes and other of the various colorful personality defects associated with having that kind of mathematical brain -- and then you allow people to think they can pick someone based on "who fits in" and who they feel comfortable with

so you have a class of people that skews toward already being uncomfortable with change and uncomfortable with strangers -- and you expect anything to happen other than the same gender, race, and class bias?

it's a given in certain fields of endeavor that you will have personalities that are difficult and allowing those personalities to continue to follow their own prejudices just guarantees that nothing ever changes and opportunity never opens up outside a narrow class

it's funny how the strangely behaving old white dude or strangely behaving south asian dude is okay to be a math or physics professor but it's the white woman or the black man who is somehow "off" and doesn't fit in?

think about what you are proposing

sometimes people need to forget about personality and forget about who is going to make you feel "comfortable" and how much of a "fit" with the staff they are -- we're talking about a MATH department not the fucking chorus -- if some people are odd and don't fit, it makes no fucking difference and never has, they've tolerated way wackier white guys than this for years -- worry about who "fits" and who is a team player when you're hiring people to sell used cars, sheesh

a little common sense would be nice once in awhile

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalhistorian]

38. Thank you!

Very well said and so true.

[liberalhistorian]

39. Excuse me? "Asperger's Syndrome and other

personality defects?" Excuse me? My son is an aspie, I'm learning disabled with some aspie tendencies, I've dealt with plenty of aspies over the years, especially following my son's diagnosis, and I assure you that AS is NOT a "personality defect." So they don't hobnob and schmooze it up or get twisted up with the stupid office politics, so what? That is not in any way a personality defect. Sometimes it's actually being realistic.

And it most certainly does make a difference in those departments as much as in any other, it's very difficult to work with even one person who brings everyone else down because they may not fit as well into the group. It has nothing to do with race, gender or religion.

Please take your ignorance and stereotyping somewhere else.

[slampoet]

56. Thank you!! As a techie I deal with MIT people all the time who are borderline Asperger's Adults.

All of these people are high functioning and I find that the only people who have a hard time dealing with them are people who are missing the "Empathy Gene"

We all know who these people are who lack empathy because they tend to crow about racism or sexism or some other ism and they tend to COMPLETELY forget that not only are the handicapped THE MOST downtrodden minority, they also seem to forget that if you live to be elderly you will develop a disability,


As for Asperger's i tend to feel that it is a trade-off rather than a disability. The emotional part of the mind is traded for some other use such as engineering or in one case i saw a great poet who had it.

Though i really shouldn't generalize since i don't live with it everyday like you.

[liberalhistorian]

66. Bingo! It is not a "disability"

or anything like that, it is simply a different way of thinking, perceiving and communicating. And frankly, many of our inventions and discoveries were made by such high-functioning Asperger's and autistic adults. Thinking outside the box is the only way societies have ever moved forward and gotten things done in the first place.

It's a myth, though, that the "emotional part" of the brain is missing with aspies and auties. I assue you that it's very much there and they DO feel and express emotions, even for others. It's just done in a different way than most people are accustomed to. And daily life is often exhausting for them as well due to people who expect everyone to think and act alike.

[MonteLukast]

78. Perhaps it's a mistake...

... to diagnose them as having a neurological condition in the first place.

Being thought socially lacking can be a career death sentence.

America treats anyone it considers "socially awkward" like second-class citizens anymore. It doesn't discriminate between truly ASD people, and people who technically aren't, but are just quirky. It treats them both like they fundamentally lack as human beings. What could be more basic-- or progressive-- than empathy?

The big problem is, the way you prove you have good social skills is NOT under your control. Can you control how other people feel about you, or respond to you? Can you control whether you get invited to the prom, proposed to marriage, or promoted to management? Only to a certain and smaller-than-you-think point. After that, serendipity takes over.

I worry about the official portrait of a person with high emotional intelligence. It bears a striking resemblance to the conservative in that AlterNet article I've referenced so many times recently: someone whose drive for emotional stability leads them to numb themselves to inequality and injustice. Someone, in other words, in no position to actually DO anything to improve the state of the world, only to look at it with wide, cow-like eyes and go, with a bemused little smile, "That's the way life is."

Daniel Goleman and friends talk a good game when it comes to EQ. But to me, the music and the words don't match. And I trust the music more.

[vanderBeth]

52. What the hell are you talking about?

I have asperger's and that didn't even make sense but I still got offended.

[dipsydoodle]

42. There's a stock answer to this.

Hire the one with the biggest tits.:P

[gollygee]

43. It depends on whether you believe in affirmative action, and whether the man is white

If the man is white and the university has an affirmative action policy, then the woman should be hired.

If the man is not white then they are both covered by the affirmative action policy so it could go either way.

[tomreedtoon]

44. Give each a knife and lock 'em in a room.

The survivor by next morning gets the job. Vic Mackey had the right solution; let evolution decide.

As a matter of fact, I think in most cases the woman would win. The man would generally be too nice to stab a lady. Ladies have no heart or soul, and wouldn't hesitate.

[KitchenWitch]

75. Nice generalization, Freud

:eyes:

[Incitatus]

46. drinking contest

[chiefofclarinet]

47. By the way, it IS possible to have a draw in chess

Actually, there are five ways to draw in chess.

Article 5 of the FIDE Laws of Chess details the ways a game may end in a draw, and they are detailed in Article 9: (Schiller 2003:26-29).

* Stalemate - if the player on turn has no legal move but is not in check, this is stalemate and the game is a draw.
* Threefold repetition - if an identical position has occurred three times, or will occur after the player on turn makes his move, the player on move may claim a draw (to the arbiter). In such a case the draw is not automatic - a player must claim it. Article 9.2 states that a position is considered identical to another if the same player is on move, the same types of pieces of the same colors occupy the same squares, and the same moves are available to each player; in particular, each player has the same castling and en passant capturing rights. (A player may lose his right to castle; and an en passant capture is available only at the first opportunity.)
* Fifty move rule - if at least fifty moves (by each side) have passed with no pawn being moved and no capture being made, a draw may be claimed by either player. Here again, the draw is not automatic and rather must be claimed.
* Impossibility of checkmate - if a position arises in which neither player could possibly give checkmate by a series of legal moves, the game is a draw. This is usually because there is insufficient material left, but it is possible in other positions too (see the diagram). Combinations with insufficient material to checkmate are:

* king versus king
* king and bishop versus king
* king and knight versus king
* king and bishop versus king and bishop with the bishops on the same color. (Any number of additional bishops of either color on the same color of square due to underpromotion do not affect the situation.)

* Mutual agreement - a player may offer a draw to his opponent at any stage of a game, ostensibly with the understanding that a draw by any other means has become inevitable anyway. If the opponent accepts, the game is a draw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw_(chess)

Sorry, but I'm an amateur chess player with a friend that's a FIDE master (I think that's his level).

[DemoTex]

48. Work it out with a slide rule.

[Ms. Toad]

59. Mine's hiding around somewhere...

I couldn't get my daughter interested in it - her calculator was WAY more interesting...

Anywho...I guess I could use it to determine the ratio of female faculty to male faculty and if it was less than 1 hire the woman...

[undeterred]

51. Hire the woman.

Tell the man that if he marries a female faculty member a place will be found for him.

[eppur_se_muova]

54. Recommend both to the Dean, who will then make an incomprehensible choice.

Call me a traditionalist.

[liberalhistorian]

79. LOL! Ah, I see someone is

well-versed in university politics and faculty office politics!

[Lex]

55. What's the current math department -- all men?

nt

[sandnsea]

58. The one who adds diversity

a unique way of thinking, something the dept doesn't already have. duh.

[greguganus]

60. Hire the woman. Statistics show that in general men are better than women in math, so..

...that would indicate she is a lot smarter than the man, even though the employer considers them both equally qualified.

[greguganus]

61. Dupe. n/t

[slackmaster]

62. Evaluate them again

No two people could possibly have the exact same qualifications.

[BlooInBloo]

64. There's a LOT that's of key relevance, that went completely over your head...

Most spectacularly: What fields are the two candidates in? Math prof jobs are typically targeted at specific fields.

There are other things that you're apparently not aware of as well.

A lot has to be stipulated as equal before it would get boiled down to a gender question.

[Xithras]

65. I've sat on hiring committees. Flip a coin.

If you inject any kind of personal bias into it, even a bias that promotes diversity, you're just opening yourself up to a lawsuit.

The reality, as others have mentioned, is that the situation you describe would never happen. Unless they went to the same schools, started teaching on the same day, and published identical papers covering the same types of content, there will always be SOMETHING to differentiate applicants.

[slampoet]

67. I don't hire Hypotheticals. You can call be prejudice if you like, but i don't think they are real

human being's like you and me.

[Evoman]

68. The woman.

Honestly, in many of the male dominated professions like math, for a woman to get to the top of academia is a qualification in itself. Even all other factors being equal, the woman has had a harder time getting to the same position. She had to work harder in grad school than her male counterparts, thats for damn sure.

It's the same reason a poor black or latino person who grew up in a rough neighbourhood, and a middle class surbanite who went to a good high school are not EQUAL, even if they graduated from the exact same college, with the exact same degrees, and the exact same marks. One of them had to overcome additional adversity to get to the same place.

Evoman

[spin]

69. Chess between humans involves much more than math...

Set up a match between a nuclear physicist with just the basic knowledge of the moves and a high school dropout who loves the game and has studied it for years and is a talented chess player. I'd put my money on the dropout.

Anybody remember the great American chess player Bobby Fischer? If you don't visit http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/obituaries/18cnd-fischer.html

Bobby Fischer attended Erasmus Hall High School at the same time as Barbra Streisand and Neil Diamond. The student council of Erasmus Hall awarded him a gold medal for his chess achievements. Fischer dropped out of Erasmus in 1959 at age 16, the minimum age for doing so, saying that school had little more to offer him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer

And of course, there is such a thing as a draw on chess.

n chess, a draw is one of the possible outcomes of a game, the others being a win for white and a win for black. A draw is the same as a tie. Traditionally, in tournaments a win is worth one point to the victor and none to the loser, while a draw is worth a half point to each player.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insufficient_material

I wonder if the originator of the survey was trying for a fools mate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fools_Mate

[LSdemocrat]

70. What does the rest of the department look like?

If it's all, or nearly all, men then hire the woman for diversity and to improve the recruitment of female math students, or vice versa.

If gender balance isn't an issue than hire based on increasing diversity of philosophies of approaches to math.

I suppose you could go right down the line of increasing diversity of various, ever smaller job characteristics, but if at the end of the day, they really are completely equal in every way, then flip a coin, or more appropriately have them pick a number from 1 to 1000! Closest to 472 wins.

[obiwan]

71. A freeper would say....

... hire the one with the best tits. Sexist!

[Jed Dilligan]

73. Lowball the salary offer and see which one still bites.

[leftofthedial]

74. I've been a supervisor at an oil refinery since Uncle Sam sent me home for having

anal cysts, so let me handle this. Here's whut I'd do.

I'd proposition the broad. If she said "no," I'd hire the man.

If she said "yes," I'd bang her and then hire the man.




--this message brought to you by the non-wealth-spreading socialists of Amurka--









:sarcasm:

[awoke_in_2003]

77. Flip a coin...

"Call it, friendo" :)