If they steal this election again, what are you prepared to do?

[Downtown Hound]

Just want to ask my fellow DU'ers, how far are you willing to go? Are you willing to risk your job? Your livelihood? Your freedom? Your life? Are you willing to brave tear gas, pepper spray, stun grenades, and possibly beatings by overzealous right wing cops? If you haven't answered yes to any of these questions, then just know that we will never get our country back, should they succeed in their electoral theft again.

I can tell you that I have been tear gassed, pepper sprayed, and arrested during my career as a protester. Although none of them are pleasant, I assure you that you will survive. And you will be much stronger when it is all over with. I ask all of you to join me in pledging resistance in the event that our third presidential victory in a row is wrongfully taken from us again. We must organize and work together, for united we are strong. Join with me in pledging that if McCain steals this election, for the next four years, our government has such a difficult time with it that they NEVER try anything like this again.

VIVA LA RESISTANCE! (If necessary of course)

[EFerrari]

1. There will be no next four years of McCain if the Republicans steal it again.

We're going to Washington and we're going to stay there until the elected president is sworn in.

Period.

We need a web site and we need to develop this plan every single day from now until the fourth.

[TheWatcher]

11. This is what I want to hear. It is what we need to do.

We must confront the thieves and make them step down.

We must make it clear this will not stand.

We are finished as a country if we don't.

[NeoTheo]

27. I think they may have already anticipated that

as the military is already in place for such events.

[TheWatcher]

53. Correct, but what can you do?

The alternative is giving in. If some are OK with living in a Police State or Dictatorship, then let them wring their hands for a few days and then get back to the mission critical importance to the survival of our civilization that is NFL Football, Reality TV, Gobbling Cheeseburgers, swilling beer, or whatever makes them feel good.

I'm not willing to let go that easily.

[NeoTheo]

71. but what can you do?

And therein is the $64,000 question you so aptly put in your thread.

[TheWatcher]

168. You do whatever you have to.

And that's where I'm leaving it.

[rebel with a cause]

174. Exactly, I don't think it wise to forecast your plans for after

the election on a public message board. You are opening yourself up for all kinds of problems if your answer can be interpreted in any way as a threat. Just saying.........

[TheWatcher]

176. I understand what you are saying.

And I am glad to know you are concerned for my well being. :) And I mean that sincerely.

However, I am not going to live in fear of these bastards.

And as I said, that's where I'm leaving it.

[rebel with a cause]

178. I am not saying to live in fear.

I am only saying it is better at times to be careful than it is to be boastful.

If I were going to make plans for a protest or anything else it would not be on a message board for everyone to read.

As it is, I am handicapped and in poor health, so am not making any such plans. :hi:

[jhrobbins]

70. The question for me is moot - I am disabled and wouoldn't be much good

in a protest. I think the real question is how many Americans would be willing to make such a pronounced protest and I think the answer is not enough to matter. I think it will take some enormous event to propel your question to fruition. ANd I don't know what that could be. I'm not sure that there is anything so monumental to do that (basing this opinion on history and what caused other 'large, significant protests' (notice I am unwilling to say it even).

[Blarch]

60. I call Bullshit.

Suppose that when you get to Washington you come up against another mob ...the mob that supports the new dictator...and in that mob you might see your father or sister. Then what ? ..you fail, thats what.

[Downtown Hound]

61. In all my years of protesting

I've never seen the right manage to get more than a few hundred to a rally. By contrast, I've seen us get hundreds of thousands. No need to surrender until we're actually defeated.

[EFerrari]

62. But the people don't support them. Or McCain would have a chance of winning. n/t

[NeoTheo]

72. I have to disagree with your assesment.

That was kind of a big part of the Civil War, Brother against Brother, Father against Son.

[Blarch]

77. Yep.

but look around today.

Not only will the dEms NOT stand up to the repubs...

Most dems are STILL treating the very people who support the destruction of the constitution with respect.

If the dems still treat these people as equals ...then they are not even close to standing up to them.

[NeoTheo]

140. Oh yeah, I completely agree

Americans have been so placated since the end of WW II that I think they no longer have the spine to take responsibility for the future of their country. This is especially concerning when one considers that half the country, the wingnuts, don't even understand what the problem is.

But then again that was a problem with the beginning of the Revolutionary War in America in that the majority did not favor it as it was going to be inconvenient and disrupt their lives. Which is true, a revolution in your back yard does tend to be an inconvenience. But none the less it got done, so maybe there is still hope. I think the government believes there is as the have moved part of the military onto American soil just for that kind of event. So, I guess we'll have to see how it works out.

One would think though, that even the wingnuts should have caught on by now that this faith-based economic planning isn't working out real well but no, they are still dumber than a box of rocks.

[conscious evolution]

155. 'tend to be an inconvenience'

Look at it this way-Your backyard could be a National Historic Site one day.

[NeoTheo]

165. Wow, you mean I could fence it in and charge admission

Now that would be a good thing.

[TheWatcher]

74. So, get back to your TV and Trappings and roll over and deal with it?

THAT is what failure is.

[lonestarnot]

81. Oh go get under your bed!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

87. Dad. Sis. It was nice knowing ya.

[prizejayzuss]

123. Never were truer words and ideas spoken

We need to ORGANIZE. We need to buy tents and remain in DC until the cows come home. Whatever it takes, we need to do. There are more of us than them.

[kimmerspixelated]

149. DING!DING!DING!

MORE OF US than THEM!!!!

The fact that there have been more of us in all the great grassroots uprisings since 2000 is actually what gives all of us hope in the first place. The big elephant in the room is US! We can do it! We can take our country back! NOW MORE THAN EVER!!! ENORMOUS NUMBERS AGAINST some very small little dickheads!

[Laelth]

156. Welcome to DU!

:dem:

-Laelth

[roguevalley]

138. I will be there. Count on it.

[conscious evolution]

154. State capitols also.

Not everyone will be able to make it to DC for various reasons.For some their state capitol might be doable.
Plus,it would require more resources on the pukes part to stop such demonstrations if they are spread out all over the country.

[EFerrari]

189. I've always thought that would be a great idea.

Even federal buildings in cities.

[Speck Tater]

2. Retire to a cave in the mountains and dedicate myself to transcendental enlightenement. NT

[plaintiff]

13. I almost answered, "Run home tearfully, jump into bed, assume the prenatal position

and turn the electric blanket up to 9."

;-)

[mwdem]

3. We're ready to do what's necessary..

but I think Obama will pre-empt this. He's on his toes. It'll be a long night on Nov. 4, but we will not roll over!!

[Downtown Hound]

18. I agree he's more on his toes than Kerry seemed to be

But I still don't like the fact that nothing is being done about the GODDAMN MACHINES! Sorry, my anger there isn't directed at you, it's just that I can't stand the fact that the Democrats haven't done more about these machines. Barack seems to be on the ball about everything else, but he hasn't said a word about the machines.

[mwdem]

26. I agree with you..

the machines bother me too. Why can't the whole country decide on one machine? I know there are different races in each state, but, can't the country use one kind of machine? And why do they have to be complicated? It's a vote.

[ailsagirl]

108. THAT concerns me greatly

Hi Downtown Hound-- I'm in Marin :hi:

[Downtown Hound]

135. Hello, ailsagirl.

Nice to meet you. :hi:

[ailsagirl]

136. Likewise, I'm sure

Are you as nervous about Nov 4th as I am?

[Downtown Hound]

139. I go through phases

Sometimes I'm really confident and relaxed, other times not so much. I really do think we're going to win it though, but the reason why I started this thread is because I thought Kerry was going to win it also. But I remember that election very well, sometimes it seems like only yesterday. Obama is in a MUCH stronger position this time than Kerry was back then. So the odds are on our side. And at the very least, this time at least McCain will be facing large Democratic majorities in Congress, whereas after 2004 the little chimp had free reign.

So overall, things are looking pretty good. I just find I can't let myself get too complacent. I remember how devastated I was after Kerry's "loss." Hoping for the best here and planning for the worst. It's all any of us can really do in the end.

[ailsagirl]

153. That's about where I am

Yes, I remember after Kerry "lost"-- it was the most sickening feeling of dread and depression. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. And I do have concerns about Obama's safety but I won't get into that. At this point in time, I'm feeling pretty apprehensive. :scared:

[Downtown Hound]

171. Try not to worry too much

Remember one thing, people are hungry for change. Regardless of what happens, if we all work together and unite, we can really take that desire and do something with it. There are far too many of us to be permanently ignored.

[ailsagirl]

172. Thanks, Downtown Hound... I'll try to remember that

:hi:

[kimmerspixelated]

150. I think so, too.

Obama is not business as usual. He hasn't needed to turn up the heat, yet, but I have no doubt that he will put up quite the fight, because it's not about him, just like he said, it's all about us!

[harun]

187. He has been on his toes for all the other crap they are doing he is ready for this too

[billyoc]

4. Go back to work for Halliburton.

[4 t 4]

7. I almost think I would be ready to

fight even with all the things you listed above and if nothing came of it I would really consider moving to maybe Mexico. If it comes to that I pray I have the strength to follow through!

[Fire1]

106. YOU ARE ON THE WRONG SITE, DUDE!

[billyoc]

181. Who might you be?

[Ezlivin]

5. All I need to hear is "We're marching on Washington, D.C." and I'm on my way

I've never been arrested and I don't know how much battering I could take from the police (I'm in a wheelchair), but I damned sure won't sit still if the election is stolen.

[Downtown Hound]

9. If you didn't resist, odds are that the police wouldn't give you

too much of a hard time on account of your being in a wheelchair. There are no guarantees, but you're probably pretty safe. Just stay away from the really hectic stuff and you'll be fine.

[Critters2]

20. Me, too. I won't sit still for it this time. nt

[MiniMe]

41. I live in the DC area and have taken the day after the election off

If McCain wins, I will be downtown in the streets.

[readmoreoften]

44. Unfortunately, they could care less about protests. Especially now with the active denial system.

Marches in free speech zones are all but meaningless. Planning marches/occupations outside free speech zones will get you arrested, assaulted, and charged with terrorism per RNC.

[elleng]

65. Won't all happen in DC,

in fact, much more persuasive and viable if HUGE protests occur in EVERY STATE CAPITAL and MAJOR CITIES.

[Ladyhawk]

117. If there's a movement, I'll come even if I have to go into debt.

But I'm disabled and would need a bit of help. I tire easily.

I think the main problem is I have this kind of mentality: "I'll go if you'll go." No one really wants to be in a small group.

[Ladyhawk]

119. What if Obama wins, but other Dems / progressive initiatives are defeated?

How can we know for sure on those things?

Obama can't help us without support in Congress.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. Roll up in a

NOT.

[Bobbieo]

28. What is that creature 4moronicyears has in his or someone's hand?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

29. Well howdy, I'm trying to trap one in my back yard right now, it's

an armadillo and it is tearing the hell out of my grass.

Here is the process that goes on when they get spooked.

[Bobbieo]

33. Thank you, 4 more- we don't have them in AZ and I've never seen one.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

37. Here is what they look like when they don't move fast enough

on the highway.



here is a cute shot of one...



and here is one that has evolved, eat your hearts out all you creationists... that was a great episode if I do say so myself.

[slackmaster]

42. When I was an undergraduate sharing a house with others, we had a stuffed 'dillo on our coffee table

It had one bullet hole in the shoulder. Quite a conversation starter.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

47. Yes.... they say that 9 out of 10 armadillos do not attend

gun safety classes as advised. ;)

[bvar22]

129. The only thing....

"The only thing in the Middle of the Road are Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos"---Jim Hightower

[slackmaster]

40. I've heard it's possible to contract leprosy from handling those

Is it true?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

45. I dunno and I don't plan on handling one... Heard the same thing

though.... wierd looking creature, it's amazing how god makes things to make us go hmmmmmm. (and) distort the "true" age of the earth. I had a guy at work tell me that they have like one bone from a dinosaur and they create the entire skeleton through divination so to speak. Tell me, aren't there ANY complete skeletons of said dinos anywhere that prove the thing actually was here and went on walkabouts??

[NeedleCast]

88. Yes

Armadillos, while an interesting looking animal, are one of the filthiest creatures alive and can carry both leprosy and rabbies. Handle with caution, or preferably not at all.

From experience, the armadillo is neither armored enough nor fast enough to evade a bullet...or car.

[pitohui]

159. they were used in research at the leprosy colony in louisiana

it is possible that some still carry the virus (?) bacteria (?) well you can see how well informed i am

people are asked NOT to cook and eat the armadillos for that reason but honestly i have never actually heard of it happening that anyone got leprosy from an armodillo

i just googled and the leprosy colony at carville, la has been closed for some time now, maybe that's why i haven't heard this old chestnut in awhile


i certainly see them being handled, most recently at a zoo event in new orleans

they can be quite confiding and come quite close if you are still and enjoy watching them, so far my fingers and toes are all still attached.

[fudge stripe cookays]

185. They are the only creature besides man...

that can get leprosy. So no surprise there.

[shadowknows69]

93. Those things are not of this world I swear

Amazing critters

[murielm99]

8. It's been a long time since I have experienced any of those

things.

For the uninitiated: Don't wear your contacts to a protest. Tear gas and contacts are a bad combination. And don't bring your children, no matter how much you want them to "witness history."

I'm ready. I don't advocate violence, and I never have. But we can surely gum up the works if they try this again. I still don't understand how we let this happen twice. NO MORE.

[Downtown Hound]

10. I don't advocate violence either

But it doesn't really matter what we advocate. Either some pissed off anarchist or some agent provocateurs will see to it that the crowds must be broken up through force, so if we do succeed in mobilizing mass civil disobedience, then you can rest assured it will get hairy.

[readmoreoften]

57. One window gets broken at the RNC and suddenly anarchists advocate "violence"?

The anarchists have been on the front line of this fight. The police only get away with using agent provocateurs because people are "horrified" at the "violence" of someone breaking a window at Macy's. Liberal protests have accomplished zero and have dwindled over the past 8 years. Most of what anarchists do is swarm and build blockades--which is a pretty damn common activity in other countries.

For planning to blockade the RNC, eight "pissed off anarchists" were hooded and dragged off in the middle of the night and are now being held on charges of terrorism. They face a grand jury and 7 1/2 years in prison for planning a blockade. Ludicrous charges have also been added. I assure you, they are ludicrous.

[Downtown Hound]

66. Like it or not, some anarchists do advocate violence

I ought to know, I've been right there when they've done it. I am not saying that every protester that commits violence is an anarchist and I am not saying that all anarchists advocate violence. I am not even condemning those that do use violence, although I personally disagree with it.

I agree with you that anarchists have been on the front line of this fight, I know, because I've been there right alongside with them. I've done breakaway marches and gone through the streets while the tear gas has come raining down, masked anarchists right there along my side. And I couldn't agree more that the charges against the RNC 8 are complete bullshit.

But to pretend that there are no anarchists that advocate violence is simply naive. I have watched them smash windows before, and although I do believe that some of them are agent provocateurs, not all of them are. The simple truth is, it only takes one protester, be it anarchist or liberal, to cause a scene and give the cops the excuse they need to move in on everybody. But I say, if the cops are going to come, then let them come. I'm not bashing anarchists by any means. I agree with you that of all groups, they are the ones that have risked the most. And if it comes down to it, I will march alongside them again and be proud to do so.

[readmoreoften]

76. Broken windows is only an "excuse" because many liberals allow it to be used as such.

A few broken bank or mall windows and slashed police car tires don't qualify as "violence" as far as I'm concerned. It's property damage. It's "mischief." Worse has been done during riots throughout history. The rabble smashed stuff during the cadaver riots in 19th century America and the authorities begged the crowds to be calm--they didn't bash their heads in. During the Stonewall Riots, the mob threw molotov cocktails at the police who were trapped inside the bar. 400 police trained in putting down anti-war crowds were sent in quell the riots and they couldn't win against the pissed off queens. My guess is that the people who laid bloody on the sidwalks didn't go passively. After the riots, the gay rights movement that emerged from the struggle didn't hesitate to "vandalize" NYC police cars with I LOVE HOMOSEXUALS bumper stickers. Now it seems like "a time of innocence"... That's why it was called the Stonewall Riots, not the Stonewall "Stern Presence of Many Many Disapproving People."

I've been in many a protest and I haven't seen any property damage. I have heard about it. I've seen pictures, but I haven't seen it happen. Then again most of the protests I've been involved with have been in NYC, including the last RNC and the spectacle of NYC itself has a dampening effect on protests of under 300,000. I have not seen the black bloc active in quite awhile. What I see now are blockades, critical mass, etc. Sure a few people get rowdy and destructive. But you don't break into the home of organizers with a SWAT team and arrest the organizers before the event and charge them as terrorists. And if you don't find any molotov cocktails, you don't say that bottles and liquor and tampons are intended for such a purpose. They are also being accused of conspiring to throw urine and feces on the delegates, which is a cockamamie fantasy that the RNCWC can't even figure out. They're unsure as to whether authorities mistook a dishwashing bucket of gray water for urine or if it has to do with one guy who attended meetings and lived in a garage without indoor plumbing. I suppose that's the problem with pre-crime.

For this reason, I agree with the St. Paul principles as a platform. I'm not at a protest to police other protesters' tactics. What's important is which side of the barricade you're on. Cheers.

**Disclaimer: Dear Investigator, I am not advocating violence and these statements do not constitute a plan to participate in either violence or criminal mischief.**

[Downtown Hound]

131. We agree on pretty much everything

It's definitely more mischief than it is violence. I have seen the black bloc in action, they were quite active in San Francisco back in 2003, when I did most of my protesting. I find them to be impressive folks, even though I personally disagree with their tactics. But in my eyes, my disagreement does not prevent me from seeing the risks they take in opposing the war and the capitalist system. Their actions, while in my mind ineffective and counterproductive, display a willingness and a determination that I have never seen matched at any of the peaceful, permitted marches I've been to. For that reason I, like you, refuse to condemn them, although I personally don't share their method of protest and I have serious doubts as to how effective it is.

I believe it is possible to be defiant and not be destructive, and I believe it is possible to sabotage the machine without actually destroying anything. But like you, I refuse to condemn those that disagree. If that makes me a terrorist in the eyes of Uncle Sam, then so be it. With he way things are going I'll have plenty of good company amongst people that have better things to talk about than American Idol and football.

[plaintiff]

12. I have a question before I answer yours:

If McCain wins, is that prima facie evidence of election theft? Or to ask another way, how will we know if it is stolen?
Not being confrontational here, I just want to know how we're going to determine it.

[Downtown Hound]

14. There is already proof of voter fraud going on

Votes being flipped on machines, a Republican operative arrested, but the bottom line will simply be if the final vote tallies are simply way off from both the polls and the exit polls.

[Earth_First]

21. Exactly.

Local and state GOP leaders are using foreclosure lists to deny voting rights.
Absentee ballots turn up missing from citizens abroad and military personnel serving overseas.
Power failures.
Missing smartcards for Opscans.
Incorrect, or changed polling site information on local Board of Elections websites without notice.
Unexplained bus schedule changes.

The list goes on and on...

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. This raises an interesting question. Republicans are already stealing this election.

What are we doing?

Or is attempted murder not a big deal since the perpetrator didn't succeed. Judge: "come back when you're a better shot".

[EFerrari]

24. They've worked for years to discredit exit polls.

Exit polls apparently don't work in the United States!

[plaintiff]

30. But we don't -have- exit polls any more. So where does that leave us?

:shrug:

Yes, I know all about how our own government used them as evidence of fraud in the Balkans but somehow we're no longer allowed to
depend on their track records.
argh

[EFerrari]

32. We have the election protection infrastructure we've built for the last four years.

Find a good group local to you.

This is what we have right now -- that and the awareness we can spread about things like vote flipping or reg purging or any one of the other tricks.

Welcome to DU.

[plaintiff]

43. That's excellent advice...I probably don't have any reason to do that out here

where I live...there's no opportunity or ability to pull any of that stuff but I hope people in more populated areas are on top of it.

[ailsagirl]

109. Not since 2000 they haven't!! Gee... wonder why

[snake in the grass]

58. It's election fraud...

...not voter fraud that the Drones are busy with. What irritates me is that we know this has been going on since 2000 and nothing has been done. Now, I simply must hope that Obama doesn't throw in the towel until every vote is counted. It would be great if every person caught committing election fraud this year would get a juicy prison sentence too. Let's say 10 years in a federal penitentiary.

[Greyhound]

86. Oops, I guess I should've read the other replies before making mine. n/t

[Greyhound]

85. One note; It is election fraud, not voter fraud. The voters are the vics, not the perps. n/t

[NorthCarolina]

15. The media will be relegated to the task of validating the election for McCain

They have already planted several "seeds" in advance, not the least of which are carefully prepared polls that perpetually insist a "close race" (even when we all know different), and the ever popular "Bradley Effect" to name a few.

[EFerrari]

23. Close race, Bradley Effect, voter fraud. We have to mind how the story

is shaping up. They need a story to make it work.

[lonestarnot]

82. That matters not! IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO LEGITIMIZE AN ELECTION!

[NorthCarolina]

89. Like when Gore won the popular vote?

[lonestarnot]

103. Yes.

The people accepted it and went about their business w/o a fight.

[Earth_First]

19. It happens when ONE voter is denied the constitutional right to vote... n/t

[handmade34]

16. If it would make a difference, I would give

everything.... (for my children and grandchildren)

[arcadian]

17. You know how you combat tear gas?

Wear your own gas mask. A few people with masks and heavy duty gloves can throw a tear gas canister right back at the fascists.

[Downtown Hound]

22. That helps for the eyes, but not for the skin

The gas they use today isn't technically tear gas, it's something else that has very similar effects but supposedly doesn't cause any long term damage. And it seriously burns your skin. Gas masks help, as does long sleeved clothing. But the best way to combat tear gas is to simply get out of it and wait it out. Don't rub your eyes and don't pour water on it, it only makes it worse. In about fifteen minutes, the effects are mostly gone.

[conscious evolution]

160. Milk

It counteracts the chemical weapons they use on protestors.
Trust me.I know.It works.

Now that I think about it isn't using chemicals weapons on a civilian population a war crime?

[slackmaster]

39. Tennis rackets are pretty effective too

Send 'em back where they came from.

[Gman2]

25. Neoluddites unite!

We can become the neoLUDDITES. We monkey with the things that push their buttons. Or just a general strike by dems until the count is fair. They WILL KENT STATE US. It is a lesson every few gens. We were about a sustainable existence in the 60's. They shot a few and killed the momentum. A sustainable lifestyle movement was the danger, not made up crap. They made it airey fairy to think that way. McMansions ruled. We were played to the end. Now they want more. A neofrench revolution is in order. And if we dont clean house, THEY will.

[Kip Humphrey]

31. 2004 + 4: "You Stole My Vote" March on the 51 Capitals of the United States

For an archival return to those days of a stolen election past, visit http://www.51CapitalMarch.com

[happydreams]

34. It's already over IMO. They are both in the pocket of

corporado America. The whole goddamn thing is a crock of shit!

Do you, any of you, really think, that the power elite would let fundamental change happen? This, as most of the elections for high office, are bullshit! The peoples will will always be denied under the present system.

[readmoreoften]

50. Well, I agree. There is certainly no fundamental change going on.

The question is, in my mind, "Who are the powerful forces at the helm and what is their goal for the people?" "The American People" are not among the deciders. That's pure mythology at this point. We're basically choosing between two kings and plutocratic groups, one being more benevolent than the other. Election fraud is an uncheck reality. It is possible that they won't rig the game enough to win. It is also possible that Republicans will rig the lion's share of the congressional and senatorial seats and ignore the presidency believing that they can pressure Obama into doing their bidding. It is also possible (but less likely) that those in power (not the Republicans but Western elites) want Obama to win and continue Western expansion in the name of "benevolent" causes.

I do think it is important to learn who exactly is gaming this system, however. Whether or not the election is stolen and for what races will be an important clue.

[Downtown Hound]

54. So how do you change the present system?

I can't say for certain that I know that protest and civil disobedience would work, but I know that doing nothing and allowing election after election to be stolen does not.

[happydreams]

146. Answer....

I don't know.
All I do know is that the truth must be told and retold about what the underlying reasons are for all of these stage acts. In the 60's people like Abbie Hoffman, Rubin, Kustler, Seale and others did not know what would happen during the Anti-War Movement. Some predicted that the country would go the way of the French Revolution--degenerate into class warfare and chaos.That didn't happen, the war ended, but the beast re-awakened and reasserted its power. Iraq and Afghanistan is very much like Vietnam only the police state seems to have grown more powerful and the stakes are much higher--serious economic upheavel if we do not change course.

The people must get control of their economic future--democratic socialism-- which will bring about the other changes in energy, health care and environmental policies, etc.

[happydreams]

147. Answer

I don't know.
All I do know is that the truth must be told and retold about what the underlying reasons are for all of these stage acts. In the 60's people like Abbie Hoffman, Rubin, Kustler, Seale and others did not know what would happen during the Anti-War Movement. Some predicted that the country would go the way of the French Revolution--degenerate into class warfare and chaos.That didn't happen, the war ended, but the beast re-awakened and reasserted its power. Iraq and Afghanistan is very much like Vietnam only the police state seems to have grown more powerful and the stakes are much higher--serious economic upheavel if we do not change course.

The people must get control of their economic future--democratic socialism-- which will bring about the other changes in energy, health care and environmental policies, etc.

[pecwae]

78. Strongly agree.

[Irish Girl]

137. A one-party system of plutocracy

We're given two candidates hand picked by the elite to give us illusion of freedom of choice. I see right through the smoke and mirrors. Given the circumstances, I would much rather have Obama in office and pray the American people come together to demand our Constitution be rightfully restored. Anything less is unacceptable.

The government must represent 'we the people', not the corrupt elites and corporations that have been siphoning from the working class for over a century.

[ArmedAmerican]

35. not a damn thing

that is the correct response, yes?

(edit)

actually, maybe one thing. I'll try to have a pleasant dream about vacationing in Brazil.

[cobalt1999]

36. First of all, there needs to hard proof an election was stolen

Most of the stuff about 2004 was far from convincing to me and even less to the average American. In fact, many republicans make the same claims about Democratic "dirty tricks" each election cycle.

So, it all boils down to the evidence. If it's the same evidence as 2004, then there will be a collective yawn...again.

[readmoreoften]

51. What don't you get about computerized voting? THERE IS NO "EVIDENCE."

Especially when there is no oversight as there is with bank transactions.

[TheWatcher]

56. Some people you just can't reach.

I know sometimes we have a hard time understanding one another on DU, so I will be happy to act as interpreter in this case and translate his post for you:

"I choose not to believe it, because I'd rather feel good, and living in the false paradigm of "hard evidence", despite the very nature of what we know about computerized voting, helps manage my perception so I don't have to believe anything to the contrary."

Hope this helps.

[cobalt1999]

114. Not exactly a good translation.

Without evidence, you could just as easily make the reverse statement:

"I choose to believe, because I'd like an outlet for my anger if things don't turn out like I want them to. I'd rather have faith in my feelings than my intellect".

Some people are totally convinced there is massive computer fraud, some, like me, would like to see something a bit more substantial and less circumstantial than what has been posted here so far.

Of course, if you notice my signature, I'm a skeptic by nature.

[TheWatcher]

142. Yes, cobalt, those of us who believe in election fraud want it so badly to be true.

And that's why we believe in it. You sure have our number.

As for yourself, you are telling me that absolutely NOTHING form the past two Presidential elections even raises your SUSPICION that there has been electronic vote fraud, with everything that has come out over the past 8 years.

Not one thing.

It's all totally legitimate.

You actually believe this?

[cobalt1999]

148. There have been voting irregularities from the very first election.

I'm not claiming that there aren't issues in any election and, yes, there have been issues with some electronic voting machines, that's been well documented.

However, that doesn't mean that there is a systematic designed conspiracy to use electronic voting machines to steal an election. I don't see the evidence for that (and I've seen the links in the voting forums too).

Put it this way, if many people even here on DU aren't sold on that republicans are systematically stealing elections via the machines, how much support is there going to be in the general public?

How much uproar was there in 2000? (when republicans did use every trick up their sleeve to sway what was a basically tie election to their side). Some.

How much national uproar was there in 2004? Little.

Without hard evidence to convince folks like me, there will be NO national uproar, NONE, NADA, ZILCH.

Sorry if you don't like to hear it, but that's the cold hard fact of the matter.

[TheWatcher]

166. Folks like you continue to dismiss the way the system is designed.

It's not that I don't like to hear it, it just let's me know you are someone not to waste my time talking to, because you cannot be reached.

Perhaps you haven't seen the "hard evidence" you are looking for, but again, as people like me keep trying to tell you, you keep dismissing the myriad of examples and demonstrations that have proven that such a conspiracy is possible and CAN be done with these machines. They were DESIGNED with the capability to do exactly what you refuse to believe they can. And no, I'm not going to waste my time citing specifics for you, because you already refuse to believe this exists to begin with. Google for yourself. They are there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lrFkRHrRDI

These machines are designed to leave no evidence. And if it is just a legitimate failure of the technology itself and not something nefarious, then why is it that all the "irregularities" always favor the Republicans.

And as for the lack of uproar because of these machines, We The People share in the blame for the stolen elections we have seen, because we have done nothing to stop it.

And for God Sake, knowing the way these things are designed, I cannot understand why ANYONE would not be outraged that something like these machines and the technology that runs them, that are by DESIGN capable of being used for nefarious purposes and have been demonstrated as PERFECTLY CAPABLE of DOING SO, would even be CONSIDERED FOR USE in our voting system, much less deployed on a wide scale.

That doesn't make you angry? That doesn't cause you concern? That doesn't raise the slightest suspicion? Something shouldn't be done about it?

You know, I hope all of our concern and fears are unfounded. I HOPE this doesn't happen a third time.

But the lack of hard evidence does not eliminate the capabilities of what this system can do, nor does it diminish the foolishness of dismissing the criminals in power who are willing to use it.

Cold Hard Facts? Cold Hard DENIAL, cobalt.

Your "one rule applies to all things" way of thinking does not serve you here. The system is designed differently than that.

False Paradigms do not eliminate it's possibilities. And if you think they do, tell that to the people in West Virginia. Bad Calibration MY ASS. But the machines are fine. Nothing exists, nothing is real, blah, blah, blah, blah.

</done>

[cobalt1999]

177. If asking for proof means I can't be reached, so be it.

Without facts, you are acting with faith or on suspicion only. That might be enough to motivate you, but as you yourself have noticed, it isn't motivation for most people in the past, nor will it be motivation during this election cycle either.

"...conspiracy is possible and CAN be done with these machines"...The fact that something is POSSIBLE and CAN be done, is a long way from IS BEING done. There are hundreds of possible things that CAN be done, but I'm not up in arms about them until someone proves to me that ARE being done. There is a BIG difference between "CAN be done" and "IS being done".

"That doesn't make you angry?" -- Not really, it's just one of many possible ways voting can be compromised.

"That doesn't cause you concern?" -- Yes, but I'd prefer a paper based system with purple ink dyed fingers to show who voted and didn't and prevent people from multiple voting, I'd prefer picture id's to ensure that people can steal another person's vote, I'd prefer a common voting standard instead of state by state variations, I'd prefer a national day off for voting, etc. There are many things I'd change if I was in charge.

"That doesn't raise the slightest suspicion? Something shouldn't be done about it?" Raising the slightest suspicion is an entirely different from assuming it has ACTUALLY HAPPENED though. Yes, something should be done, in fact our entire voting system can be compromised in many different ways.

You say I'm in denial, but denial means ignoring evidence. I can't be in denial until there is some hard evidence to actually ignore.

[TheWatcher]

182. Good God.

Then we just agree to disagree.

Nothing against you cobalt, you mean well, but your willful ignorance on this is invincible and I'm not going to waste your time or mine trying to get you past it.

Good Luck To You.

And to the rest of us.

We obviously are going to need it.

[cobalt1999]

113. So, you expect some massive reaction without any evidence?

It's just not going to happen.

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. There is no proof because the system was designed to yield no evidence. n/t

[cobalt1999]

124. Then there will be no significant reaction.

Either someone with credibility exposing an organized computer theft of votes, or a SIGNIFICANT anomaly in results vs. exit polls, something, anything beyond the "evidence" so far presented.

Otherwise it's all gut feelings and I don't trust my guts to think for me.

[TheWatcher]

143. So, if a system is set up where electronic voting fraud can be done without leaving any evidence

Vote Fraud can never happen and does not exist, and anyone who thinks that it can is going on gut feeling.

You're not a skeptic my friend.

You are a magical thinker.

"If something can be done without leaving hard evidence, it does not exist."

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. The system is designed to preclude faith in the outcome.

If the democratic machinery is none of our business, maybe it shouldn't matter whether it can be demonstrated that the powers that be used their secret squirrel access to pick the leaders they want. Whether or not they do, they can, and that's good enough logic to buy stock in torches and pitchforks.

[TheWatcher]

175. It's like I said upthread LJ

The fact that these systems are DESIGNED to be able to steal votes without leaving a trail of evidence, there should have been MASSIVE OUTRAGE from the public that these machines would even be CONSIDERED FOR USE in our Election Process. The Pitchforks and Torches should have come out on Dec. 12th, 2000.

If there is no way to verify the vote, how can it be legitimate?

[slackmaster]

38. I'll turn in my badge

Maybe burn my uniform.

[shadowknows69]

97. If that means you're a police officer then please don't

More than ever we are going to need people of conscience in law enforcement and civil services. Just my two cents.

[doc03]

46. I am really not as much worried about the Republicans

stealing the election as I am if we win and they claim we stole it. If we win by just one or two states I look for the Republicans to claim voter fraud and challenging the results. I think all this stuff about Acorn is their way of setting up that scenario and they won't back down like the Democrats did.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. Highly Unlikely The Election Will Be 'Stolen'. If It Is Then No, I'm Not Willing To Do Those Things

[Downtown Hound]

55. Given Obama's comfortable lead in the polls

I'm inclined to agree with you. But I don't see it as impossible either.

And I won't flame you for your answer. You are free to do whatever you choose in response.

[lonestarnot]

83. Do you have a mattress?

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. Then why do you bother with politics?

Seems kind of a waste of effort when you're ambivalent about the outcome or its legitimacy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

126. That's One Of The Most Asinine Replies I've Ever Received.

Congrats.

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. How so? You doubt it will be stolen, but if it is... well, whatever.

how can this attitude not be described as ambivalent?

[TheWatcher]

145. If it's who I think it is (The response came up as Ignored)

Then you answered your own question in your statement.

The poster himself is a waste of time who seems to be stimulated by riling emotions and pushing buttons rather than real discussion.

He did smoke a joint with Geoff Tate Of Queensryche though, and Geoff thinks he's an Ace of a guy!. (So he claims.)

I'm sure the response you got was a childish insult with no intelligent content following it.

[ThatsMyBarack]

49. Unless Obama is officially sworn in this January....

I'm skipping Adult Midwestern Sectionals and Adult Nationals this year. As a competitive amateur adult figure skater, I end up driving to a lot of competitions, and getting Bush/McFailin' shit shoved into my face by cars I have to share the roads with. :mad:

[yodoobo]

52. I dunno, but I'll be really pissed

In all liklihood though, I'll do what I always do. Find a way to survive and protect my family.

[JNelson6563]

59. Suffice to say

I know how to take a beating and live to tell about it. At this point I would gladly join an effort to protest/overturn a stolen election. Who knows how many millions would die if we didn't? Probably more than have already due to the last two election coups.

Julie

[Selatius]

63. I'd like to think that if that time came, I would have the courage to do something like this man did

That's real courage right there.

[shadowknows69]

100. Damn straight

To live without fear, of even your own death, for an ideal, is the highest form of courage.

[TexasObserver]

64. Why would anyone ask posters to potentially incriminate themselves with damning posts?

This whole exercise is ill advised, for a variety of reasons.

[Downtown Hound]

67. Civil disobedience is hardly something to shy away from...

And neither is protest. If you don't want to make yourself known, then don't.

[TexasObserver]

69. It's ill advised, and your lack of understanding doesn't alter that.

[Downtown Hound]

73. Your opinion is noted. n/t

[deutsey]

68. Learn to live with what the Vichy Democrats do

I don't just mean those in Congress and the DNC. I mean the rank and file Democrats who hid their heads in the sand in 2000 especially. In particular, I know one friend of mine (who wasn't a friend of mine for a while there) who is representative of this. Whimpered and rolled over because she didn't have the backbone to do anything about the obvious theft.

[americanmutt]

75. I am done...

they win, i leave...

[Fire1]

107. I think ALOT of people are thinking along those lines. My son couldn't agree more!

[Kare]

116. Me and mine are in that group

I won't stand by and watch what will come of another repub presidency.

I'm thinking something in south America where at least it's warm. No more worries about heating my home and keeping the kids warm.

[shadowknows69]

79. Probably plan my suicide

Because I'm too physically unable to do what must be done at that point and I won't live just to have those fuckers decide how I die.

[lonestarnot]

84. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Downtown Hound]

132. Don't give up my friend

As long as you can breath, you can fight, and as long as you can laugh, you're not defeated. Drop me a line if you ever need to vent about things. :pals:

[greguganus]

80. We will be put back into the Matrix. n/t

[Fire1]

90. I am with you,you are not alone.

I can recall the movie "The Untouchables",in which Sean Connery says in my opinion
the greatest phrase in a hollywood motion picture.He ask Elliot Ness "What are you
prepared to do?"VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!!!!!

[LanternWaste]

91. Engage in Gandhi-Style civil disobedience.

Engage in Gandhi-Style civil disobedience.

Although it's neither as dramatic nor as "entertaining" as the root'n-toot'n, rock-'em sock-'em, shoot-'em-'up, computer-gaming style of trendy fan-boy protestations, the second half of the twentieth century have illustrated that Gandhi's approach was much more effective and efficient (and less violent of course-- who outside of the warped and the young would want violence if preventable?) in achieving its objective.

Pledging resistance is one thing, defining that resistance is a wholly different thing, and playing at resistance is a completely different animal...

[Fire1]

94. Even in peaceful disobedience you may encounter violence........

Dr. King was prepared for that violence and endured going to jail, fire hoses, police brutality and the like. I am a product of the civil rights movement and I know.

[LanternWaste]

115. Yet Dr. King himself never resorted to it ...

Yet, in the face of violence, anger, rage, and the other base emotions we all grapple with daily, Dr. King himself never resorted to usage of those demons... nor will I.

I will however, willfully and consciously disassociate myself from anyone who does-- regardless of the justification used by any purveyor of violence to better sooth their own sense of morality.

[spoony]

141. Great posts, LW

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

92. HA HA Ask ColbertWatcher

:hide:

[BlueIris]

95. Whatever I have to. Just like last time (when I did everything I could, and then some.) nt

[Le Taz Hot]

96. In that my family has fought in every war

this country has had, including the Revolutionary War, I see no reason to break with tradition. This will just be a different type of war.

[TornadoTN]

98. I'm with you

I will not stand idly by as our country is flushing completely down the drain and everything we have ever valued, and some fought and died for, is erased.

[cascadiance]

99. We should "UKRAINE" Washington DC!!!

[jcla]

105. Move to Canada and set up and Underground Railroad.

[Fire1]

110. The way I see it, you have two options. Fight or Leave............

If you stay and DON'T fight, know what you're up against. You will exist under a regime that has something to prove and/or an ax to grind. There will be no end to the Iraq war. We will permanently occupy the middle east. Prepare for the second cold war with Russia and two MANIACS at the helm. Middle class, WE will be INVISIBLE. More so, than we are NOW! God help us.

[Indepatriot]

111. Tent City on the National Mall

2-3 million of us set up camp at the capital, fire up the Weber and GRILL BABY, GRILL till the neoCons are driven back under their rocks. Ukraine Style.........

[specimenfred1984]

112. I will offer all the criminals redemption

and get 100s of rec's on DU!

[Danieljay]

118. My wife and I are discussing Costa Rica. n/t

[Ladyhawk]

121. If there's no demonstration, can I hide in your luggage? n/t

[pitohui]

161. you can hide in mine ladyhawk!

we plan to visit after the election regardless of the result, if the country is to collapse, we might as well enjoy once last nice vacation before the end

and if we have something to celebrate, all the better, i'm tired of being embarrassed by my gov't, because people in other countries (altho nice about it) sure do have a lot of questions about our scarey leadership

we'll be coming back so if you plan to stay remember to unpack yourself from our luggage before it's too late :-)

[slackmaster]

122. One of my biggest 'Net regrets is not keeping a list of people who threatened to leave the country

If one thing or another happened, or did not happen.

I suspect that 99% of them were blowing smoke, although I do know one family that moved to New Zealand after the mom was busted for pot in Oklahoma, and subjected to all kinds of persecution by police and local "officials".

[Danieljay]

125. This isn't smoke. Many of our patients are moving there. We've talked with a realtor. We can buy

3 times the house there, and the people who live there are actually willing to pay for our services.

[slackmaster]

127. The country is beautiful and the health care system is one of the best in the world too

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

[Danieljay]

128. We would prefer to stay. But we specialize at our clinic, and don't take health insurance...

and many bitch and moan about taking preventative care for their health. Many have no idea what they are getting at our clinic is longetivity and optimal aging medicine, so they wont have to take 10 medications a day as they get old. Insurance has really screwed with people's understanding of health care.

We don't accept insurance because Insurance companies try and dictate to us how long we can spend with patients and most often don't cover any way the type of treatments we provide. Also, we spend 1/2 - 1 hour with our patients. In order to pay for a staff to handle insurance claims, we could only spend maximum 10 minutes with each patients, and they wouldn't get the care they deserved.

Patients with insurance coverage get a form with ICD9 codes and Diagnosis codes, then its up to them to get reimbursed or not.

Many of our patients think we make a ton of money. So not true for how hard we work. We are two months from homelessness like any one else. We can only afford a part time office manager and a book keeper who works 10 hours a week. I spend most my time managing the business so my wife can see patients. If I leave to get other work, the place couldn't keep up. We are one of the small business that will be helped under Obama.

Its frustrating. I'm ranting.

Point is, we could afford to move, and the people that have moved to Costa Rica are willing and able to pay for what they get from our healthcare.

[pitohui]

162. i wish i could buy 3 times the house there!

unfortunately the world being what it is, it is far cheaper for me to remain in louisiana than to relocate to costa rica or panama, i'd say i could buy 1/3 the house down there, alas

beautiful country tho

[Gato Moteado]

193. i'm living here already.....if you have questions about the place, just PM me

nt

[Rockholm]

151. My brother in-law and his wife already have plans to go to Toronto.

Should the unthinkable happen. We will probably sell our home and attempt to get transferred to London.

[Fire1]

180. Cost of living in London is like NY. Too high.

[Ladyhawk]

192. You're probably right. However, if I had the money, I really might leave.

I'm poor and no country would take me. If I had more options, there is a chance I actually would leave the country. A lot would depend upon finding a place where I felt more at home. I feel like a stranger in a strange land in this, the small town where I grew up.

[mdmc]

120. nothing

just like 2004 n 2000...

[slampoet]

130. Didn't they Ask this Question in 1984 ?

[bvar22]

133. Its not up to you.

If the Democratic Party concedes (again), then there is no reason to go to DC.
What will you do when you get there?

Any protest will be doomed to failure UNLESS IT IS LED BY OBAMA HIMSELF.
If Obama calls us to stand WITH HIM in DC, then (and only then) will I go to DC and stand in the streets until justice is served.

If Gore or Kerry had called, I would have stood with them too.

The Democratic Party has a history of closing ranks with the Republicans to protect the $System$.
It has been 8 years since the Stolen Election of 2000.
What has the Democratic Party done to protect our votes ???

Over 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

So where is out transparent/verifiable election system?
These same people were able to get $800Billion Dollars into the pockets of the Wall Street CEOs in less than a week.

If we don't have a verifiable election system, it is because the people who benefit from the corrput system (Democrats & Republicans) don't want one.

So, what will you do if the Democratic Party concedes ANOTHER stolen election?


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Downtown Hound]

134. To me, it doesn't matter whether or not it's up to me

Not doing anything is the same as giving your consent in my opinion. I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'll figure then out if and when it happens. But it will be colorful, annoying, non-violent, and very determined whatever it is.

In my mind, it matters less whether or not my actions have any real effect, and more that we simply don't give up and go quietly. They can force a government upon me, but they can never force my consent to be ruled by it.

[bvar22]

144. I agree with you....

...but I'm too old to waste my blood on lost causes or heroic futile gestures.

Have you ever played 3-Card Monty in Times Square...
or been taken by a good Carnival huckster?
....I've been feeling like that a lot lately.


If Obama calls and pledges to stand with us, I'll answer.
Otherwise, my wife and I have already taken precautions to protect ourselves.


"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows"
---Leonard Cohen

[NWPatriot]

152. Do you realize....

....what the freepers are saying?

They say that if Obama loses, there will be riots that make the LA Riots after the Rodney King verdict look like a Sunday picnic.

They say that if those riots get out of control, many of them are willing to take out the rioters with "deadly force".

They WANT us to protest this. And when we do, it'll give them the impetus to shoot a bunch of us en masse.

Yes...I believe they will, and they will NOT give a tinker's damn about who is in front of them.

[Downtown Hound]

167. Not too worried about the freepers

Pretty much all talk over there. The last thing in the world I'm ever going to do is allow the freepers to dictate to me whether or not I should protest.

[Laelth]

157. I'm considering moving to Canada again.

2004 was the last election theft I am really willing to tolerate.

-Laelth

[ailsagirl]

158. Fancy that-- so am I... Which province?

[Laelth]

179. I'd love to live in BC, but I probably can't afford it.

Most likely Ontario. You?

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[ailsagirl]

186. My parents were born in Canada

and, because they were still citizens when I was born, I was able to obtain dual citizenship. So I lived on Vancouver Island for awhile. I loved my neighbors-- they were all so friendly and helpful. But I have to say, I did miss California.

I'm glad that I have the option of living up there permanently anytime I choose.

Brrrrr.... Ontario? My Dad was raised there, my Mom Alberta. Hard winters!!

:)

[dailykoff]

163. I think I'll spend another four years blaming Kerry

along with the rest of America. Now where's my pink tutu pic.

:sarcasm:

[pitohui]

164. i have been beaten by my last man, i will not participate in violence

sorry but i have to draw a line somewhere and that's mine


protests that accomplish nothing but getting good people jailed and hurt are not my idea of effective protest, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one

as lost causes do not appeal, i will turn my efforts to causes that i still have some hope of winning -- such as environmental causes that have broad ranging appeal

better to win something small than to lose everything

[Bush h8ter]

173. canada

its the only safe place

[brettdale]

183. It will be awful

If they steal this one, it will awful, there will be mass riots, people wont take it. Surly they wouldnt be that stupid.

[TWiley]

184. Bush would invoke Martial Law and stay indefinately

I have long thought that was something he would be interested in anyway.

[adigal]

188. Absolutely - I will protest, and there will be NO theft this time

We will NOT tolerate it. No way.

[DailyGrind51]

190. With clear majorities in both the House and Senate, McCain will be neutered from the get-go!

[Fire1]

195. He's a 'MAVERICK', remember. He doesn't NEED congress.

[lonestarnot]

191. Not turning back this time! Not one inch! Man the outhouses! Bring the pots, pans and spoons!

[brettdale]

194. It will be too hard for them to steal it anyway

Obama's lead in the polls is too much, did ya see the lines of early voters today, there is a 15% increase on 2004 of African Americans voting.

[Bobbie Jo]

196. Torches and Pitchforks

:mad: