“The Collapse of Complex Societies”

[seemslikeadream]

http://endofcapitalism.com/category/book-review/





Review of “The Collapse of Complex Societies”


by Joseph Tainter

1988 Cambridge University Press

A classic book, highly recommended for anyone becoming aware of the coming collapse of industrial capitalism, or just anyone who is interested in the origins and failings of civilization more generally. Tainter approaches the subject as an archaeologist, and attempts to decipher a general theory behind collapse - a process he describes as declining returns on investments by the ruling class.

Tainter doesn’t view it in terms of class, so he strangely falls into the realm of historical materialism while criticizing Marxism for not being materialistic enough. The examples given (Rome, Maya, Chaco Canyon) help elucidate the topic by showing how the majority of the population tends to benefit and welcome collapse (he mentions how the average citizen/slave of Rome welcomed the ‘Barbarians’ who freed them from brutal debt and servitude). Despite some academic and boring language, my only major complaint is the lack of substantive mention of oil and fossil fuel depletion, which has doomed global capitalism. But the book is 20 years old, I guess he didnt see it coming

[salvorhardin]

1. Interesting book review

Is The End Of Capitalism your blog? Because otherwise, you should at least link to your source. Otherwise, people might think you a plagiarist.

A classic book, highly recommended for anyone becoming aware of the coming collapse of industrial capitalism, or just anyone who is interested in the origins and failings of civilization more generally. Tainter approaches the subject as an archaeologist, and attempts to decipher a general theory behind collapse - a process he describes as declining returns on investments by the ruling class.

Tainter doesn’t view it in terms of class, so he strangely falls into the realm of historical materialism while criticizing Marxism for not being materialistic enough. The examples given (Rome, Maya, Chaco Canyon) help elucidate the topic by showing how the majority of the population tends to benefit and welcome collapse (he mentions how the average citizen/slave of Rome welcomed the ‘Barbarians’ who freed them from brutal debt and servitude). Despite some academic and boring language, my only major complaint is the lack of substantive mention of oil and fossil fuel depletion, which has doomed global capitalism. But the book is 20 years old, I guess he didnt see it coming.
http://endofcapitalism.com/2007/09/24/review-of-the-collapse-of-complex-societies

[seemslikeadream]

2. oh I meant to thanks for the reminder

Thanks for watching me ever so very closely, I knew you could sal. There isn't anything anti in there is there? I got really worried for a moment there, you of all people would understand that, wouldn't you? So you are rooting out plagiarists now? I thought that was Mr. g job. What would you do with out me to keep you busy? I didn't realize it was your turn to babysit today, you had taken so much time off in the dungeon I figured you had gone on to bigger fish. I did though post 7 other OPs this morning did you need a link to them or have you already proof read them?

Just in case here they are:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4280312
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4280374&mesg_id=4280374

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4280155&mesg_id=4280155

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4280186&mesg_id=4280186

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4280242&mesg_id=4280242

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4280285&mesg_id=4280285

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4280346&mesg_id=4280346

[ret5hd]

3. .

:rofl:

(thnx for the laugh)

[salvorhardin]

4. Tainter has an interesting thesis

That societies collapse because of diminishing returns on investment in complexity. However, even Tainter doesn't see his thesis as relevant to contemporary societies:

From The Collapse of Complex Societies, pp. 213-214
http://books.google.com/books?id=YdW5wSPJXIoC&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=Collapse+today+is+neither+an+option+nor+an+immediate+threat.&source=web&ots=OGHQkeUfk5&sig=88nwd159Z-coa6nm7ON9WMXcGQw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA214,M1

[seemslikeadream]

5. I see you are familiar with cache google also?

or are those you highlights?


btw it was written in 1988

[salvorhardin]

6. Google book search actually

I bunged the URL and it didn't appear first time around.

Have you read Tainter's book? I remember it making quite the stir when it first came out, but I never read it. Does he have venture forth any solution to the complexity problem for modern societies?

[seemslikeadream]

7. I knew you just didn't have that book laying around the cafe

Thanks for all the attention this morning but I must admit you scared the hell out of me when I initially saw that you posted in my thread.

[salvorhardin]

11. Believe it or not SLAD, I think you post interesting things from time to time

And Tainter had a fascinating thesis. That's why I asked if you had read the book and if so, does Tainter venture forth any solution to the complexity problem for modern societies?

I've told you before, there's no need to treat me like an enemy just because I disagree with the vast majority of what you post.

[seemslikeadream]

12. Alright then but it is not because you disagree with what I post it is

HOW you implement your disagreement. And I'm sure you can understand my point of view on that.

[seemslikeadream]

9. The law of diminishing returns

[anigbrowl]

8. I don't see what difference it makes that it was written in 1988

The points are just as relevant in 2008. One could look at the economic collapse (and subsequent revival as a largely autocratic state, though a titular democracy) of Russia in the early 90s. Arguably they had a more sustainable system since their economy was long fucked anyway under communism, so people had given up depending on state-sponsored mechanisms to get by, while property was not the object of contention that it is in Western societies.

The only state that has undergone a complete collapse in recent times is Somalia, which effectively has no government and is contested by a variety of warlords, but doesn't have enough geographical attractions for any of the neighboring states to find it worth taking over. I suggest Russia/Georgia provide a more useful model of what happens to weak nation-states.

[seemslikeadream]

10. It was a response to what sal posted, nothing more